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-   -   BEST USE of the IR Remote!!! (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61140)

waialua359 08-01-2008 23:04
BEST USE of the IR Remote!!!
 
With all of the issues we've read about the IR, I think Dave Lavery and co. were hoping teams would look beyond the box and figure what they would do with it.
I havent seen it in another thread and would think that teams will eventually catch on to this.
Hint:
1. We dont know where they are placing the balls since its random? Right??????
2. We think its a waste of time to control the robot using the IR since the range is limited?

What are we thinking of?:D :D :D

popo308 08-01-2008 23:05
Re: BEST USE of the IR Remote!!!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by waialua359 (Post 672998)
With all of the issues we've read about the IR, I think Dave Lavery and co. were hoping teams would look beyond the box and figure what they would do with it.
I havent seen it in another thread and would think that teams will eventually catch on to this.
Hint:
1. We dont know where they are placing the balls since its random? Right??????
2. We think its a waste of time to control the robot using the IR since the range is limited?

What are we thinking of?:D :D :D
using the Remote to tell the robot what autonomous to run.... :ahh:

spinmunky 08-01-2008 23:09
Re: BEST USE of the IR Remote!!!
 
ahh I get it, since there are 4 balls and you can program 4 buttons... you tell your robot which ball slot to go to using the remote.

Alan Anderson 08-01-2008 23:11
Re: BEST USE of the IR Remote!!!
 
It's obvious to me that the expected four signals/actions are something like this:

1) Knock off the ball in the leftmost spot
2) Knock off the ball in the center spot
3) Knock off the ball in the rightmost spot
4) Just go!

Branden Ghena 08-01-2008 23:14
Re: BEST USE of the IR Remote!!!
 
If those actions seem obvious to everyone else (they do to me), maybe the GDC wanted something completely different?

T3_1565 08-01-2008 23:18
Re: BEST USE of the IR Remote!!!
 
we are treating each lane of the track as three lanes (as there are three places the ball could be on that lane) two of our buttons will be used to "change lanes" so we are always underneath our ball!!

Daniel Bathgate 08-01-2008 23:19
Re: BEST USE of the IR Remote!!!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tawnos23 (Post 673015)
If those actions seem obvious to everyone else (they do to me), maybe the GDC wanted something completely different?
They seem obvious to me as well... but extremely hard to accomplish. Ah the joys of being the programmer.

Guy Davidson 08-01-2008 23:22
Re: BEST USE of the IR Remote!!!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Anderson (Post 673011)
It's obvious to me that the expected four signals/actions are something like this:

1) Knock off the ball in the leftmost spot
2) Knock off the ball in the center spot
3) Knock off the ball in the rightmost spot
4) Just go!
Agreed. That's what was clear to us and that's what we're planning to do.

basicxman 08-01-2008 23:25
Re: BEST USE of the IR Remote!!!
 
why cant you do this and it would be an extra 15 seconds of tele-operated basically:
button 1: move robot forwards
button 2: move robot in reverse
button 3: turn robot left
button 4: turn robot right

popo308 08-01-2008 23:26
Re: BEST USE of the IR Remote!!!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sumadin (Post 673029)
Agreed. That's what was clear to us and that's what we're planning to do.
It's quite obvious that would be the best way to use the remote...
But who knows there always could be a different/better way to use it?!?! :D

:yikes:

Binome 08-01-2008 23:27
Re: BEST USE of the IR Remote!!!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by basicxman (Post 673033)
why cant you do this and it would be an extra 15 seconds of tele-operated basically:
button 1: move robot forwards
button 2: move robot in reverse
button 3: turn robot left
button 4: turn robot right
You sure can, but why?
With the addition of a few IR/Ultrasound range sensors, a gyro and encoders and some code you can have a robot that will drive around the track fully auto, and just use your IR remote for telling it what ball to knock down.

Gdeaver 08-01-2008 23:31
Re: BEST USE of the IR Remote!!!
 
Allen,
I think that is exactly what Dave wants us to use the IR for. The intelligence is on the robot. We give it an action we want it to accomplish and the robot takes the action on it's own. If a team wants to use the IR as another form of remote operation they are going to have some hard problems to over come like the interference issues.

Cow Bell Solo 09-01-2008 00:15
Re: BEST USE of the IR Remote!!!
 
What about

1. Drive Forward
2. Turn Left
3. Turn Right
4. Knock the trackball off.

for IR buttons

laultima 09-01-2008 00:44
Re: BEST USE of the IR Remote!!!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cow Bell Solo (Post 673088)
What about

1. Drive Forward
2. Turn Left
3. Turn Right
4. Knock the trackball off.

for IR buttons
thats what ive been thinking.
question: In the teleop-period ive been thinking the IR remote can be used to signal the drive team (ie. pressing one button will turn one OI light on, etc). Is it legal to have the four buttons have different actions in different periods of the game, or could I use an if-statement so in teleop the IR wont change any values, just turn on lights?

JohnC 09-01-2008 01:01
Re: BEST USE of the IR Remote!!!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by laultima (Post 673106)
Is it legal to have the four buttons have different actions in different periods of the game, or could I use an if-statement so in teleop the IR wont change any values, just turn on lights?
<R69> The ROBOT shall not dynamically change the recognized command set during a MATCH.


Guys... READ the MANUAL!

JM987 09-01-2008 01:08
Re: BEST USE of the IR Remote!!!
 
Welll lets think..
if there are no lights for a camera to react off of I believe the IR is for use to tell the robot which ball to go to at the beginning. Since its a random choice.


:ahh:

longrange 09-01-2008 02:08
Re: BEST USE of the IR Remote!!!
 
For those who haven't tried to operate your remote WHILE 5 other remotes are being used....well you should try it.

Pretty futile.

Your robot better know what to do once it's left the starting gate. I think the odds of getting a signal thru all the interfering IR will be unlikely.:ahh:

Woody1458 09-01-2008 03:00
Re: BEST USE of the IR Remote!!!
 
My idea is to add a restrictor tube to the ir reciever so that it will only see the remote of our robocoach when at the right angle to turn. Further thinking upon this makes it a bad idea, but i thought it was nifty.

Feeling_spazzy 09-01-2008 03:11
Re: BEST USE of the IR Remote!!!
 
I say cut out wasting a button on forward drive, and set your robot to move forward by itself. You can still steer with the other two buttons, and the back button could stop the robot and cycle through whatever processes that you choose or need.

JohnC 09-01-2008 03:19
Re: BEST USE of the IR Remote!!!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feeling_spazzy (Post 673156)
I say cut out wasting a button on forward drive, and set your robot to move forward by itself. You can still steer with the other two buttons, and the back button could stop the robot and cycle through whatever processes that you choose or need.
There is no cycling of processes. You get four things.

waialua359 09-01-2008 03:34
Re: BEST USE of the IR Remote!!!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by longrange (Post 673135)
For those who haven't tried to operate your remote WHILE 5 other remotes are being used....well you should try it.

Pretty futile.

Your robot better know what to do once it's left the starting gate. I think the odds of getting a signal thru all the interfering IR will be unlikely.:ahh:
and this is exactly why we made this post. We tried the remote with others at the same time and it was "pretty futile."
Sending a signal at the beginning of the match is the most insuring way to ensure that it receives it, PLUS autonomous should ideally be enough to do what you want it to do. The fact that a camera has no green light to detect this year would have made autonomous not enough by itself in finding the correct ball to "tip." :D :D

Tottanka 09-01-2008 04:41
Re: BEST USE of the IR Remote!!!
 
How about 4 buttns like this:
1) forward
2) turn left
3) raise arm/ lower arm
4) stop

zivo123 09-01-2008 07:06
Re: BEST USE of the IR Remote!!!
 
for all of those who suggested
turn left
go forward
knock ball down
etc.
the problem is simple- the IR sensor gets signals from the remote only in a maximum of 3-4 meter range. the balls are 8 meters away from the robocoach so these commands are not possible.

i also have a question- i could i use the IR to determine which "autonomus mode" i would like to choose(ball to you left ball to your right etc.) but can i send the robot these signals during initialize mode ? (when the robot is on but not autonomus yet)

waialua359 09-01-2008 14:52
Re: BEST USE of the IR Remote!!!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by zivo123 (Post 673178)
for all of those who suggested
turn left
go forward
knock ball down
etc.
the problem is simple- the IR sensor gets signals from the remote only in a maximum of 3-4 meter range. the balls are 8 meters away from the robocoach so these commands are not possible.

i also have a question- i could i use the IR to determine which "autonomus mode" i would like to choose(ball to you left ball to your right etc.) but can i send the robot these signals during initialize mode ? (when the robot is on but not autonomus yet)
another good point made. The best range we got with the right light conditions and no interference with other remotes was 12ft. That field is obviously too large for the remote to send signals to during the match.

JohnC 10-01-2008 03:42
Re: BEST USE of the IR Remote!!!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by waialua359 (Post 673535)
The best range we got with the right light conditions and no interference with other remotes was 12ft. That field is obviously too large for the remote to send signals to during the match.
We got about 25, up to 30 feet using a Sony projector remote. It was in plain lighting conditions and only using the one remote. It was just a walk-backwards-until-it-doesn't-work kind of test.

waialua359 10-01-2008 03:52
Re: BEST USE of the IR Remote!!!
 
well its no wonder you got a greater range. Its a Sony....hehe.

JohnC 10-01-2008 04:16
Re: BEST USE of the IR Remote!!!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by waialua359 (Post 674167)
well its no wonder you got a greater range. Its a Sony....hehe.
On the other hand... it did install a rootkit on our IR board. :(

lol

efoote868 10-01-2008 07:43
Re: BEST USE of the IR Remote!!!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnC (Post 674166)
We got about 25, up to 30 feet using a Sony projector remote. It was in plain lighting conditions and only using the one remote. It was just a walk-backwards-until-it-doesn't-work kind of test.
Has anyone else had success with long(er) range remotes? Does anyone know of a place to buy a long range remote? I've got a couple people searching for a better remote.

If my team comes up with a mod to the remote to make it more powerful, I'll certainly share it.

Gary Dillard 10-01-2008 09:57
Re: BEST USE of the IR Remote!!!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnC (Post 673109)
<R69> The ROBOT shall not dynamically change the recognized command set during a MATCH.


Guys... READ the MANUAL!
There is still some debate as to the interpretation of this rule (and the other rules about only 4 commands/actions). From Rule R67:
  • use a maximum of four different inputs from the ROBOCOACH (e.g. use four different buttons) during any single MATCH
  • communicate no more than four messages, states or conditions to the ROBOT (please refer to Rule <R69> and Rule <G01> for additional information) during any single MATCH.

So if the action on your card for button 1 says "put robot in state 1", in hybrid mode that could communicate ball position (if state=1, ball is on left side; do this....); in tele-operated mode that could be open gripper (if state=1, extend actuator number 2).

We'll have to wait and see what the ruling is on definition of "command set"; is it you commanding the RC (where my example is OK; I'm still commanding the same thing) or the RC commanding the robot (where it's not, because the RC has changed it's command set during the match)?

waialua359 10-01-2008 21:09
Re: BEST USE of the IR Remote!!!
 
We need Dave here to comment on this, but officially should post on the Q&A board on the FIRST site for a response.

captain1807 12-01-2008 18:23
Re: BEST USE of the IR Remote!!!
 
Wow, I read this and it made sense.

I was toying with the idea of using them like toggle switches, but I never put 4 and 4 together.

Job well done guys, you are the beings of superior intellect.

flightofone 12-01-2008 19:02
Re: BEST USE of the IR Remote!!!
 
We're planning on having the IR remote provide very similar driving functions to regular operator control. Our 4 buttons do:
1 - turn left 10-degrees
2 - turn right 10-degrees
3 - accelerate 2fps^2
4 - decelerate 2fps^2 (including going negative if already at zero)
Since the buttons can be repeatedly pressed as needed, this should provide decent driving functionality.

Travis Hoffman 12-01-2008 19:08
Re: BEST USE of the IR Remote!!!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Anderson (Post 673011)
It's obvious to me that the expected four signals/actions are something like this:

1) Knock off the ball in the leftmost spot
2) Knock off the ball in the center spot
3) Knock off the ball in the rightmost spot
4) Just go!
Can this also not be accomplished simply by setting your autonomous program at your operator controls after they randomly place the trackballs on the overpass? <G20> just says the players have to be in the alliance stations for the trackballs to be placed, NOT behind the lines. They can still make adjustments to auton before the match starts. If anyone sees any other rules which prohibit this action, I'd love for them to point them out.

I know not every team employs such autonomous program select functionality at their operator controls, but perhaps they should, given the added flexibility.

<G20>

TRACKBALL Locations - After all ROBOTS participating in the MATCH are in their starting positions and the TEAM members are in the ALLIANCE ZONE and/or ROBOCOACH STATIONS, four TRACKBALLS will be placed on the OVERPASS. On each side of the OVERPASS there are three TARGET LOCATIONS for TRACKBALLS. The field management system will randomly choose an initial starting location for the TRACKBALLS before the start of each MATCH. One red and one blue TRACKBALL will then be positioned
in the chosen TARGET LOCATIONS on each side of the OVERPASS. After this point in time no ROBOT may be moved or repositioned until the MATCH starts.

Now regarding the IR remote...

Not having really thought about it in too much detail, I'd consider the following four actions....

Start/Continue (Jump to Next Autonomous Step)
Stop/Pause (Signal End of Current Autonomous Step)
Tweak Steering Left some finite increment during motion
Tweak Steering Right some finite increment during motion

I do not anticipate much use of the remote in Teleop mode. Actions 1 and 2 would obviously not apply. Perhaps I could use Actions 3 and 4 to assist the pilot in making the left turn at the far end of the field should his/her vision be blocked.

CyDrive 12-01-2008 19:38
Re: BEST USE of the IR Remote!!!
 
The only other thing you need to worry about is also your starting position. Since you will have 1 of 3 spaces you will occupy the code will need to be changed for each space. So you would need to plan out who gets what space with your alliance members.

fuherg1 13-01-2008 10:55
Re: BEST USE of the IR Remote!!!
 
Our team's plan for hybrid and the IR is this. We are planning on making it so our robot will autonomously go for the middle part no matter what. But if there is no ball there we have a back up plan. We are using mecanum or omniwheels and will only need to press left or right. That way we wouldn't interupt the auto code and we dont need to waste a button on taking off the trackball. The other two buttons are now open to something else such as go around the corner and get the other ball or something like that. We don't want it to be just a small controller so we are using set out functions for it to do.


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