Any teams build two robots to practice with after build season. (6 weeks)
 

The title asks the question. But I know of some teams that have two robots which allows the drivers to keep practicing after the 6 week build period. Are any teams doing that this year? :confused:

Re: Any teams build two robots to practice with after build season. (6 weeks)
 

We might. But it's not decided on quite yet -- We're worrying about the competition 'bot first.

Re: Any teams build two robots to practice with after build season. (6 weeks)
 

based on the number of bearing blocks in their pic I suspect that 254 and 968 are this year just like last year.

I know that our team is planning on building two different drive train designs so that we can both decided which is best and so that we have another bot to practice against before ship.

Re: Any teams build two robots to practice with after build season. (6 weeks)
 

I've been on three different teams - 201, 830, and now 121. Two of them (201 and 121) never have/had a second robot. One of them (830) built a second robot every single year.

The two biggest issues are cost of materials, and additional fabrication time. First, you have to buy every single part in duplicate, which can add up, even if you use (like we did) relatively inexpensive parts. If you have a decent budget, or work really hard to raise the money, it can be done, though.

The far bigger concern, though, is the amount of time and effort that it takes to build everything twice. You do get some efficiency and savings from doing the same thing twice, but it still takes about 75-80% of the man-hours to build the second 'bot. There are also a lot of repetitive tasks (16 pillow blocks for drive shafts!) that can be frustrating. Finally, the hardest thing ever is motivating your team to finish both robots by ship day. Two of the three years that I did it, the practice robot didn't get fully finished until after ship day. We just didn't have time to finish both in time to ship one, and once ship day was over, nobody wanted to put in time to finish the second!

This also has the insidious effect of making people think "hey, we don't need to finish the robot until right before ship - we have a practice 'bot to do driver practice". Needing that last few days or week to practice gives a great motivation to finish early. Plus, your programmers will thank you for that time ;)

All this being said, it's been a lifesaver at times, and a handy thing to have at others. You get a chance to practice how to make all your parts before they go on the real thing, drivers who never got to drive their machine before ship day can get much-needed practice, and when something breaks at the end of your first regional, you have a copy back home to look at and get ideas for how to fix it (or test out parts you make in the Fix-it Window!)

So, my conclusion - there are some really good reasons for and against building a practice robot. If you've got lots of time, money, and manpower, you can really get some benefit from it. Otherwise, it can become a drain on all three. I may miss the benefits this year, but I think I'm glad I don't have to deal with the downsides, either.

Re: Any teams build two robots to practice with after build season. (6 weeks)
 

Last year the TechnoKats finally carried through on the perpetual promise to build a duplicate practice robot. We've typically tried to build every major assembly in triplicate, making one for each 'bot plus a spare. 2007 was the first year we managed to put absolutely all of the pieces together for two substantially identical robots.

I hope the team decides to do it again this year. As the lead programming mentor, I was very happy to have a system to use for developing and testing software during the fix-it windows.

Re: Any teams build two robots to practice with after build season. (6 weeks)
 

Team 228 is planning on building twin robots this year.

Re: Any teams build two robots to practice with after build season. (6 weeks)
 

114 will be fixing the missing link in our chain, and that's driving. We're making two full robots. With the team we have lined up, expect to see something frightening from 114 out on the field, driven by folks who know their stuff.

The main reason we're making two this season is due to new man power, so we actually have enough people to make two. We've had the money for years, but never the manpower.

Re: Any teams build two robots to practice with after build season. (6 weeks)
 

Our team is going to try to build two robots, we will see how it goes.

This is my first year involved in FRC as an adult adviser so I'm learning everything as I go. However, what I have been told is that, in the past, a few key senior guys tend to do most of the work and there are a whole bunch of other students kind of standing around.

If you build two robots at once, it seems to me, that you can institute a mentoring system so that a junior student is always mirroring what the senior student is building.

Of course this might make things take a bit longer but, then again, those seniors will all be gone next year and this kind of hands-on mentoring is absolutely required to leave the team in good shape for the next season.

Well, that was my thinking at least. We will see how it turns out.

John

Re: Any teams build two robots to practice with after build season. (6 weeks)
 

We don't quite have the supplies for two bots. However, we're using a previous bot so our drivers can at least practice driving. This won't exactly help with maneuvering whatever arm we decide to use, but at least they'll have some familiarity with driving this year's robot.

Re: Any teams build two robots to practice with after build season. (6 weeks)
 

1529 plans to make two 'bots in parallel - one for competition and one for prototyping and practicing. We've finally got the resources to do so. Hopefully it will pay off well in competition.

Re: Any teams build two robots to practice with after build season. (6 weeks)
 

Team 195 started to build two robots last year for a couple of reasons

1. It allows our drivers to have much more time to practice and get more aquanted with the robot.

2. It allows us to teach the younger students how to machine products and it gets them much more involved in the program.

3. Having a second robot is just really cool.

This year we are definitley planning on building a second robot to help practice with this highly dirver centered game.

Re: Any teams build two robots to practice with after build season. (6 weeks)
 

Yeah, the ÜberBots are planning to do that this year. We've done that for several years now, and it helps with figuring out if anything needs to be changed on the bot when you get to the regional, as well as driver skill from practicing- this is part of what helped us to win our regional last year.

Re: Any teams build two robots to practice with after build season. (6 weeks)
 

It sounds like to me we need to have seperate regionals for teams that build two robots and teams that build 1 robot. I am curious if all of these teams building two robots actually have the students doing 80% or more of the work. :(

Re: Any teams build two robots to practice with after build season. (6 weeks)
 

We will try again to build 2. We've done that now for about the last 5 years and it really helps the drivers practice and learn what the robot can do and what it can't do.
The main thing is to plan it out so you only set up the machines once when you cut, drill, or machine. While making both sets of parts we also make spares at the same time - same thought process - set up once, so your parts are more likely to be true duplicates.
And the students do 80% or more of the work, because we have so many parts to make - someone has to do the cutting, drilling, and machining so it might as well be them.

Re: Any teams build two robots to practice with after build season. (6 weeks)
 

Our Team hasnt officially decided to build two of the same robots but we took a quickie vote and it was an overwhelming vote for building the 2nd.

We would stagger it so that our first Robot that actually gets shipped is still the highest quality possible but the extra practice will be valuable not to mention having a spare part for pretty much everything!

Re: Any teams build two robots to practice with after build season. (6 weeks)
 

Looks like we'll be building two ourselves. Which means we'll have robots running around the cage like crazy. It's a very scary thought. At least until the shipping date. Then we'll only be down one. Which only gives us a couple (our new one this year and a robot of old, if not two robots of old) to drive for afterwards practice. We were all pretty happy about the decision to build two. Practice is gonna be a huge thing.

Re: Any teams build two robots to practice with after build season. (6 weeks)
 

what we do is we start building our robot at the beginning of the season, and we use it to try out different ideas and see if they work. This robot is called "demo bot". once we settle on a final design we build the final version of the robot, without all the holes in the 80/20, without the eyeballed measurements, and it works a lot better than the demo bot." we then practice driving that robot after the ship date, and we bring it to the regionals so that, if something like the arm got completely destroyed in competition, we could just go out to the trailer and take it off of demo bot and it would work on the final bot. that way we have a duplicate of the robot in case something breaks.

Re: Any teams build two robots to practice with after build season. (6 weeks)
 

The difference is only really noticeable at the first competition. And our team is 100% student built and run.

Re: Any teams build two robots to practice with after build season. (6 weeks)
 

We have been building two robots since 2005 and its been a noticable difference in our on filed performance. I highly reccomend it.

Re: Any teams build two robots to practice with after build season. (6 weeks)
 

I wouldn't say we have a 100% student built robot but if you look at our photo album on our website (just click the sig to get there) our kids at least do 50%. One secret to our success is we use the same drive base year after year (with some modifications).. We also have a very detailed plan of when we want what done. It also helps that every single person on the team works thier behind off.

Re: Any teams build two robots to practice with after build season. (6 weeks)
 

We build two also. It is a big help for the drivers to practice on a robot with the same drive systems and mechanical devices while the main robot is sitting in a warehouse waiting on us. We changed drive systems this year and also have new drivers for the first time in four years, so we will really need the time to practice this year.

Re: Any teams build two robots to practice with after build season. (6 weeks)
 

1726 is opting for a compromise between the two system. This years robot will use a drive system very similar to last years so rather than build two robots we are leaving our prototype launcher (essentially the same as the main parts, but with some rough areas) on the 2007 robot to allow driver practice.

Re: Any teams build two robots to practice with after build season. (6 weeks)
 

233 is hoping to finish one robot, two is out of the question for us.
mike d

Re: Any teams build two robots to practice with after build season. (6 weeks)
 

<R41> Teams may bring a maximum of 25 pounds of custom FABRICATED ITEMS (SPARE PARTS, REPLACEMENT PARTS, and/or UPGRADE PARTS) to each competition event to be used to repair and/or upgrade their ROBOT at the competition site. All other FABRICATED ITEMS to be used on the ROBOT during the competition shall arrive at the competition venue packed in the shipping crate with the ROBOT.

Re: Any teams build two robots to practice with after build season. (6 weeks)
 

This is 195's second year building duplicate robots, and the only thing on our team that is not completed by students is welding. All Design/CNC/Milling etc is done entirely by students, and generally most of the machining is done by underclassmen while designing is handled by the seniors.

Also I have to disagree with the 70-80% extra man hours for building a second bot. While working with CNC its normally only a few minutes per extra part, the bulk of the work is in coding the initial piece. Now as far as hand machining, we always seem to have at least one extra lathe/mill lying around unoccupied so most work is done simultaneously by multiple students.

Building 2 robots really is an effective way to teach underclassmen how to do some of the raw machining and construction involved, getting your hands on real parts is always better than pre-season practice.

Re: Any teams build two robots to practice with after build season. (6 weeks)
 

We build 2, we call them the twins. the practice robot is generally not painted or lightened though so it is the "ugly twin". I think it is really helpful to have 2 robots though, plus then we have spare parts already made if we need them in the off season for presentations.

Re: Any teams build two robots to practice with after build season. (6 weeks)
 

Our 2007 bot is very similar to this year's bot. The chassis is essentially the same idea, only with different, lighter material, a better design for strength, and of course 6WD. We'll be making identical claws and attaching that to last years robot to practice driving. Picking up trackballs doesn't look like an easy task for a driver.

Re: Any teams build two robots to practice with after build season. (6 weeks)
 

We are building two robots this year.

We have also done it in the past. '05 and '07

Re: Any teams build two robots to practice with after build season. (6 weeks)
 

We are biulding our first second robot this season, althought it won't be exactly identical.

Re: Any teams build two robots to practice with after build season. (6 weeks)
 

We discussed today whether or not to start the second bot and this logic came up in our discussion also - "we can just bring the second robot with us to competition in case anything breaks". So... If a team were to bring their second bot to competition, but left it in a trailer and the fabricated parts that come off of it, don't exceed 25 pounds - would you still consider this to be legal? Sounds like a good YMTC.

Re: Any teams build two robots to practice with after build season. (6 weeks)
 

Notice the parts I've bolded. It gets tricky as to just how these words would be interpreted. Where does a "venue" start - at the parking lot, at the arena door, anywhere outside your shop door? How you define it could make it mean something different for local teams and for teams that travel.

My personal feeling is that the spirit of the rule is that teams will not have more than 25 pounds of fabricated parts available to them, unless they are sent with the robot in the crate. You'd have to ask the Q&A to be sure.

Re: Any teams build two robots to practice with after build season. (6 weeks)
 

I would agree with Gary on this. The spirit of the rule is that you should only have 25 lbs of fabricated spare parts available at a competition. You can ask Q&A for a clarification, but I would think the proposed situation of a second robot outside in a trailer is of dubious ethics, even if it might not be against the letter of the rule.

Re: Any teams build two robots to practice with after build season. (6 weeks)
 

were building two robots during buid, one to practice and our main one.

Re: Any teams build two robots to practice with after build season. (6 weeks)
 

This is tricky. You can't bring the whole practice robot into the pit. What if you don't bring it into the pit, but leave it in the trailer? What if you don't put it in the trailer, but leave it at the hotel? What if you leave it at your shop? What if your shop is 5 minutes from the competition? What if your shop is 2 hours from the competition? Where do you draw the line?

So far, I haven't seen any good official answer to this, so you have to evaluate for yourself. Or rather, your team as a whole should discuss it. So far, I don't have a good answer for it myself, but I'm happy to see a discussion on it.

As for my team, in years past, there was at least one competition where we did bring a whole practice robot in the trailer. Later we decided that was probably against the intent of the rule, so we stopped doing so. One year our practice robot consisted of the drive base from the previous year, and a new arm. We decided it was OK to bring the whole robot in the trailer because the drive base was not competition legal, so only the arm was a valid spare part, and once detached from the base would be under 25 lbs.

Re: Any teams build two robots to practice with after build season. (6 weeks)
 

I'm almost certain in 2004 or 2005 I saw a Q&A or some other official response stating in no uncertain terms that practice robots cannot be brought to competitions, be it inside the event, at the hotel, in a trailer, in your trunk.

Does anyone else remember this?

Re: Any teams build two robots to practice with after build season. (6 weeks)
 

Definitely. They made it 110% clear at the time that practice robots could not be brought along AT ALL.

Re: Any teams build two robots to practice with after build season. (6 weeks)
 

That is correct. I wonder if it is time to dust off that narrative, and get it ready for re-use.


-dave



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Re: Any teams build two robots to practice with after build season. (6 weeks)
 

Don't forget that previous year's rules and Q/A responses do not apply to this year ;)

Re: Any teams build two robots to practice with after build season. (6 weeks)
 

... unless they are re-issued this year!!! :D



-dave



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Re: Any teams build two robots to practice with after build season. (6 weeks)
 

We plan on building 2.

not just for practice, but also for replacement if something happens to the original

Re: Any teams build two robots to practice with after build season. (6 weeks)
 

Oh, I remember. This happened after my previous team (830) brought their practice robot to Great Lakes Regional, and used it during practice matches. It was an innocent mistake - the lead engineer was still new to FIRST, and it was a year before I joined - and there wasn't any rule specifically prohibiting it at that point. There was a rule very soon after, though :p

Re: Any teams build two robots to practice with after build season. (6 weeks)
 

I believe that teams should be generally have about 2weeks to practice with their robots before shipping date. The only thing you might want another robot for is to work on the programming for autonomous or default. For that you can use an older robot.

Re: Any teams build two robots to practice with after build season. (6 weeks)
 

We always built twin robots- so we can get hundreds of hours of practice for our drive teams.