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Lettering in FIRST
Hi, I'm R.J. our team 2044 is the only in Nebraska and our highschool administration will not allow our so called "team" to letter. This is because they call the Robotics "Team" a CLUB. In fact we are far from being a "club." In a club do you put in as much time and effort as you do in robotics. Do you have to apply to be on a club. Is a club made up of 14 students. I think not. What do you guys think?
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Re: Lettering in FIRST
I personally think that the search feature is wonderful. You'd probably find something like this there.
But anyway, lettering in FIRST is rare, despite the long hours. Keep working at it, and eventually you'll sway them. |
Re: Lettering in FIRST
the athletic department at my school is in charge of that, and they're all stuck up about it. we've been thinking of getting jakets that look like our school's and putting robot stuff on them just to p.o. the athletic people.
personaly, i think most school sports are a waste of time. unfortunately, those sports are the popular ones. i'm in Tae Kwon Do all year. i can use what i learn there beyond the mats :P |
Re: Lettering in FIRST
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To answer your questions 1. possibly. I know people how spend weeks working on stuff for TSA or science olympiad, but FIRST does require a greater commitment commitment. but some athletics teams require a 12 month commitment that is more demanding than FIRST. 2. Sometimes. NHS is a good example of a club with an application and do you have to apply to be on a team? 3. This number makes no difference. There are teams of 10 (golf or gymnastics) people and teams of 100 (football). As there are clubs of 10 and clubs of 50+ My personal opinion is lettering denotes varsity sport. Since there is no JV and varsity level, members of the robotics team should not get letters. Also, the school can't consider you a team for insurance and other purposes. Insurance companies (actuaries) view a robotics team differently than a football team. Do i support giving awards to members of robotics team for their efforts? Yes. Should this reward be a varsity letter? No. |
Re: Lettering in FIRST
your views make no sense
a robotics team is just a dangerous as a football team if that is what you mean by insurance purposes we use plasma cutters, chop saws, welders, grinders, knives, table saws, miter saws and many other dangerous tools and in my school our clubs usually contain a multitude of people that is what i was refering to and our teams generally not as many... |
Re: Lettering in FIRST
It's a lot easier to get insurance if you register your team as a Learning for Life post through the Boy Scouts. It's what they used to call the Explorers. I couldn't imagine working in a shop without insurance.
As far as lettering goes, shoot for an academic letter. We have an academic lettering system at our school so we arranged to set criteria for lettering in robotics. It can be done no matter what your circumstance, you just have to get a whole lot of people behind your cause. Our criteria require a combination of a number of outreach hours, fund-raising credits, meeting attendance, competition attendance and other factors. About 20% of our club members letter each year. |
Re: Lettering in FIRST
sweet. that is really good advice
if we set up a criteria for getting our letters it should be much easier i will arrange for an appointment with our schools headmaster as soon as possible |
Re: Lettering in FIRST
I'm curious about why getting a letter is so important. I liked FIRST because it wasn't a sport and because my team operated so much differently than a sports team would. Athletes need their varsity letters so they can make themselves feel like beautiful unique snowflakes or what have you. Giving letters in FIRST would force you to enumerate everyone's indivdual contributions rather than focusing on the robot that the whole team built. When I'm less tired and more coherent I might share with Chief Delphi my strong opinions regarding Dean Kamen's obsession with having engineers fill the role currently filled by athletes. (Hint: I think that would destroy the field of engineering)
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Re: Lettering in FIRST
Our team started doing letters last year, but no one on the team seems to get overly excited about it. However, I know a few people on sports teams that find it rather infuriating (What? Robotics isn't a sport!...). Getting it done wasn't very difficult, I'm pretty sure most people on the team didn't know about it until they got theirs.
I personally don't see what's so important about getting a letter either, I think the robot and the relationships you build with your team mates, mentors, and the community are a much better reward for your efforts. |
Re: Lettering in FIRST
Can other "club/teams" in the school get letters? The Debate Team, the Chess Team, Model UN, the Marching Band? If so, then you have a point. If not, well then the athletic department has reserved official school letters for themselves.
There's nothing to prohibit you from going to the store that sells the "varsity jackets" and ordering yourself one, with whatever FIRST and FRC team logos you want on it. |
Re: Lettering in FIRST
I've got a white paper with our rules for lettering. Within it, there are restrictions for "varsity" and "JV" membership.
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Re: Lettering in FIRST
I was a member of the State Championship winning Scholastic Bowl team. Despite Scholastic Bowl being part of the VHSL (Virginia High School League), our team being part of the athletics department, and being more successful than any team at our high school in years, we didn't get anything. Basically, most schools don't view this type of thing as a sport. Probably because these things aren't.
Besides, why would you want one anyway? They generally just make you look stupid. |
Re: Lettering in FIRST
It's probably not a good thing to mention but I lettered in Marching Band... Still with FIRST robotics being considered a "Club" and not part of "official" school practices, lettering would be difficult.
Hey don't get me wrong... I love watching a good football game and I think we need athletics... we just need to "re-wire" peoples perceptions so they can see value in robotics and that will take time... Steve |
Re: Lettering in FIRST
in my opinion First is a sport, last year i spent 167 hours during the build season alone, first off there is no sport i've ever played that i've dedicated that many hours too. second you sweat, cheer, shout, and basically have the time of your life here... i think we should sign a patician to make first an officially recognized SPORT. i would kill to get a lettermans jacket for First, with like little robots on it, and dates to every competition you've gone to, i think it would be pretty sick...
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Re: Lettering in FIRST
At our school athletics is a big deal. However in the past 10 years - academic "sports" like robotics have also become a big deal. We have students that can letter in Academic Decathelon, Band, and Tutoring; so I will probably pursue Robotics Lettering as well. I do agree with one of the previous comments about "who cares". So far there is only one student who cares on the team and to be honest they don't do a whole lot - so my motivation is fairly low right now.
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Re: Lettering in FIRST
R.J.,
Many schools allow letters for glee club, student congress, orchestra, and school newspaper why not robotics? A wise man once told me that a school that does not celebrate it's students is not a school. A letter is not a diploma, it is a sign that you were a participant in an extracurricular activity and allows you the pride to wear a sign of your participation. And for my money, students have a better chance of starting on a career or getting a scholarship as a direct result of robotics than a sport. If your administrators would like to discuss this, I am always open. To start have them contact me via Chief Delphi, there is a choice for PM or email and I will return their message. Fourteen students or just one, need to be recognized. |
Re: Lettering in FIRST
Our High School considers this to be a Varsity Sport.
With all the long hours you put into it and all of the things you have to do to get prepared it should be counted as. Plus you play in a competition with other schools. Isnt that what your basketball team does? |
Re: Lettering in FIRST
We had letters our first year being involved in robotics. Some requierments are putting forth so many hours, going to regional, participating in other events(going to elementry, sponsors etc), doing beyond stuff(t-shirts, buttons, website, etc.)
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Re: Lettering in FIRST
Team 1023, Bedford Express, is working on getting Varsity Letters. We have submitted a proposal, submitted a persuasive essay, made a video presentation and are hopeful we will have it worked out soon. (Still keeping our fingers crossed for this year's seniors, as they are amazing!) In the meantime, thanks to all the teams for posting on all of the different threads. You have greatly helped our efforts. It is hard to know where to post this with so many great threads! We also made a slideshow/video of why FIRST members should get a varsity letter. Feel free to use it if it helps you. If you need a better copy than youtubes copy, just let me know.
-Debbie http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8-CVg0QAyg |
Re: Lettering in FIRST
In our school, sports and the arts programs still reign supreme in the extra curricular activities realm. But with that said, this will be the third year that some members (those with at least two years of solid participation) will receive letters. The letters were actually a by-product of a fundamental change that the school accepted three years ago regarding our team and the other academic teams present in the school. The key word here is teams. Up until this time, our team and the other teams (e.g. speech and debate, mock trial, academic decathalon, mathletes, etc.) were treated as clubs. The status change was the result of a concerted effort to try elevate the "status" of the academic teams in order to compete with sports and arts programs. We're not quite on par yet. But, we are working on it. So, my suggestion here is it may help you out if you can develop some stategic allies to work with in order to achieve your goal. There is power in numbers.
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Re: Lettering in FIRST
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The way I see it, It depends on how your team/club is registered with the school. 862 is officially a club, thus we are required to have open membership, and are not eligible for Varsity Letters. We do how ever qualify under our school's Academic / Activities Letter program. We also operate like a club with a President, VP, Treasurer, and Secretary instead of a Captain.
Edit I attached the most recent copy of P-CEP's Academic / Activities Letter Requirements I have. |
Re: Lettering in FIRST
Our school has been giving letters for robotics the past three years. Thanks to our drama department already awarding academic letters, we did not need to go out and make a strong case for robotics.
Like the drama department, letters are awarded at the academics awards night and not at the athletics awards night. It is a separation that seems to make everyone happy. I have also found that all students enjoy the recognition for lettering, because it shows the work and dedication they have put into robotics. The difference between letter awards and participation awards is huge for many students. The letter does not seem to be about the jacket. My observation has been that only students who have lettered in sports add the patch to their letter jacket. Students don't seem to have the need to go out and purchase a jacket for robotics. |
Re: Lettering in FIRST
Our school has no athletics or music programs. Our FIRST robotics team and our Science Olympiad teams ARE our competitive teams.
We have letters on both. There are different requirements but like most athletic programs, lettering is largely decided upon by the coach of each team. For robotics I (coach) require 2 years of committed service to the team. This honor is given to those that have committed time and effort to developing the team during FIRST season AND during the rest of the year. FIRST is a 12 month activity. I just wish we had MORE months in the year. Learning and mentoring never stop. Our time commitments certainly ebb and flow but we have fundraising, a JV FTC team, Lego League teams to support, an FLL regional to put on, lots of community outreach and team building exercises to help improve our team's abilities to perform both on and off the field. Our team prides itself on continuous improvement. We are never happy with status quo. Supporting all of these efforts with hard work and commitment earns a student a letter. I have coached both academic and athletic teams for a long time. I have NEVER seen any other team that I have worked with display the consistent high level of quality effort and commitment shown by the Skunks. I am proud to give them letters and proud to be one of them. |
Re: Lettering in FIRST
To me this seems like the core problem that high schools have with FIRST teams. Some schools just don't give the recognition that FIRST teams should get. If you compare a FIRST team to any sports team, you will find that there is a same commitment level and same basic principles. You train for the season (build and practice your bot), you have time management for games(you have6 weeks to build a bot for events) and you have team work(theres no need to even explain this one!!!). FIRST though is all about taking the spot light off of sports and movie stars and putting more focus on the science and technology leaders of the world. If you feel strongly enough about lettering, then by all means I feel you should try and "fight" this, and by fight I mean research and present your information to the correct people as a gracious professional. Now when it comes to this post:
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Re: Lettering in FIRST
Letters are not the point of FIRST. The point is to learn. Let's the sports people get the lettermen jackets. I'd rather build a bot any day. My suggestion to you? Forget it. That may sound mean, but it is not worth the time or the effort. We are not on robotics to be 'cool' we are here to learn. That letter does not help you learn therefore it has no use in robotics.
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In many schools, robotics is considered a "club" and has no significant status. The TechnoKats are fortunate to be a "team", and to receive true support and recognition from the school administration. Being honored by a proclamation from the school board doesn't help the students learn either, but it certainly doesn't hurt. :) |
Re: Lettering in FIRST
We don't want letters to be "cool", but we do want recognition by our schools. We do put as much time and effort and passion into what we do as any athlete, speech team memeber, mucisian, or any other person does. I am glad that I'm getting a letter for robotics as a senior. I've already got a jacket, for lettering twice already in music, and going to state. I'll also recieve an acedemic competition letter as a senior. That's not the point in competing, and I'm defintely not"cool" for it, but I'm glad I'm getting the recgonition for putting my time, effort, and brainpower into it. It's ok to want to get something extra, after all the work is done and you have extra time on your hands. Just don't be bitter towards sports teams. Think about how insulted you feel when somone says you don't work hard in robotics, or its not important. Every club, sport, team, and association should have the option to create a letter in their school. It just makes sense that way.
*Steps off soapbox* |
Re: Lettering in FIRST
At our school, one can letter for anything, clubs and athletics included. People may purchase letterman jackets for clubs and academics, and in some specific cases, the school will pay for it. In other cases, such as our robotics letters, we pay for the patches that will be put on it (it's all of like $6) and usually our team members already have a jacket to put them on paid for by the school.
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Re: Lettering in FIRST
My perspective about this subject is that lettering was originally meant for sports only. In recent years Ive seen people getting letters for band (which i think is wrong), and other activities like that. I think that the letter jackets should be strictly for sports because that's their tradition. We have plenty here at first but we are only an organization (a GREAT organization at that).
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These three threads have more on the question of categorizing FIRST as a sport. |
Re: Lettering in FIRST
we were able to convince at the end of last year to our principal that robotics was worth lettering in. Granted, our principal is not the sharpest tool in the shed, we made a letter out of it with multiple paragraphs comparing FIRST to many sports, and how we were jyust another kind fo sport. I don't think I still have the letter since we did it on the school server, and they erase all teh student files each year, but that's what i'd suggest doing.
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Re: Lettering in FIRST
ultimately, it will depend on how cooperative and accepting your school is.
We haven't tried yet, but next year we will attempt obtain letters. It won't be easy but why not. |
Re: Lettering in FIRST
Why not just make your own letters/buy them off the internet? I personally disagree with your opinions about needing recognition. I personally prefer to do my work without too much recognition. It makes getting the work done easier.
However, with my opinion said: What does the R in FIRST stand for? Recognition. I may not agree or care about it, but it certainly belongs in FIRST. Good luck with getting the letter. |
Re: Lettering in FIRST
Recognition is and can be a good thing for the individual, the team, and the community.
When I was in high school, I lettered in music. When I received that letter, I was very proud of the work I had achieved and the choir had achieved within the school and the community. (As an extracurricular, many of us were also a hand bell choir under my direction. We performed for donations for a charity.) My senior year, our teacher was gravely injured and two of us seniors led the choir through the year and all the performances as director and accompanist. By graduation, our teacher was back and, as a gift to me and to the choir, she allowed me to direct the choir in our closing piece for graduation. This was many years ago and that difficult year is still talked about at reunions. This is a dramatic example, granted, but the letter it is a reflection of a group of people working together toward a common goal. It reflects participation, effort, tenacity, knowledge, achievement, and often, teamwork. That is a good thing. |
Re: Lettering in FIRST
personally i don't think it's the letter that counts, it's what it represents. 20 years from now when someone from robotics goes looking through their box of old stuff they might see it, and where a medal represent a victory, the letter represents commitment to their team and what happened while they where on such a team. this is just my view on this case, personally our team gives the graduating class a letter and a pin. wether this is importent or not is up to you, but i only see a good side toward letters and no real downside.
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Jane, I really liked your story. To me, that really is the whole point of getting recognized. You put in time, heart, and effort into something that you didn't have to do, but did anyway, and turned something bad into something positive. |
Re: Lettering in FIRST
I don't believe that a Robot team should get a Varsity letter. Personally if I letter in any of my other sports, I don't even know if I will get a letter jacket. All that it is really coming down to is being recongnized for what you have done. Thats footballs way, soccers way, basketballs way, sports that HAVE NO CONNECTION TO THE OUTSIDE WORLD!! A first team is about bringing Robotics into the community, not having a pin to show off. I feel that walking through my school and having a person say "Hey you were in the paper for building some Robot or other" is far more rewarding than showing people you built one. Building the robot and seeing it run with only my team is reward enough,
I need no jacket! But what do I know, I'm just a freshman...:cool: |
Re: Lettering in FIRST
honestly, i think that lettering is a good idea.
If we want to FIRST to get to get greater respect then sports, we need to start somewhere. as to it being varsity and jv, Robotics is like the Varsity and Tech is like the JV. That my opinion at least. |
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I'm all for abandoning tradition that doesn't make sense anymore. If letters are meant to honor students who work hard to represent their schools in organized competitions, then robotics teams have as much claim as football, MUN, band, or debate. Even for girls. |
Re: Lettering in FIRST
I wish I had time to give a proper response, but my school projects and lack of sleep from mild insomnia is starting to get to me. I can say that while our robotic's team members get letters, we don't think of them as our goal. Moreover, I recall something called foot in the door technique. It's just a start.
As a side note , I've been reading many opinions/ post of people that have very bad grammar/spelling issues. It helps communication when you have decent spelling/ grammar. Please. |
Re: Lettering in FIRST
I graduated in 97. I had both an athletic letter for Wrestling, and an academic letter for competing on various academic teams. Academic letters were given for outsatnding accomplishment in team oriented competition outside of traditional sports (band, choir, math team....).
I really enjoyed the academic letter because it gave me a chance to showcase some accomplishments. Let's face it, at my school you could win the State Science Olympiad and you MIGHT get a morning anouncement Monday, or you could just make it to the conference finals in basketball and get a 2 hour pep rally. One thing I learned was that if you want to inspire others they need to know what you have done. While modesty can be a noble attribute, it doesn't necessarily help spread the word of FIRST. Do you want funding? Do you want to build your team? Do you want to build teams around you? If you answered yes to any of those then please do everything possible to spark conversations about your team and show people you are proud of your team. If this includes a lettermans jacket with a little brass pin of a triangle, circle, and square, so be it. |
Re: Lettering in FIRST
In HOT's school district, many activities that aren't sports get varsity letters. Band, choir, and academics are just some of those. I joined the team in 2001, and we were already receiving letters at that point. I'm not sure how or when we got them, but it's been many years. I think a lot of the lettering process at our school has to do with the time invested, not just if it's a sport or not. For example, our marching band was in the top 30 in the country at that time, and we spent at least as many (if not more) hours in practice and competing than most sports teams to get to that point and stay there.
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Re: Lettering in FIRST
Sorry, I'm not trying to rub it in. I posted this when I was mentoring team 1147 a couple years ago.
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