Chief Delphi - defensive strategies

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Re: defensive strategies

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamHeard (Post 683661)

All of those strategies are losing propositions; scoring is where its at this year.

Defensive strategies do not mean that the 'defensive robot' isn't scoring as well.

Consider 2 robots running around the field at 12+'/sec and 1 "gently bumps" the others corner and turns them into the wall. Thats a defensive play that will be seen again and again.

Or a robot shooting an opponents ball 10+' outside the playing field. it may take 15 seconds for the volunteers to corral the ball and get it back into play where that 'defensive bot' may have just run a lap and is ready to field the opponents ball again.

Or in the last 10 seconds of a match a 'defensive bot' knocking off 2 opponent track balls off the overpass stoping 24 points from being scored.

Are you sure you can outscore your opponent each and every match? I think defensive bots ... especially since there is less scoring objects than alliance robots ... will play a huge role in the game.

Re: defensive strategies

Quote:

Originally Posted by M. Krass (Post 683635)

I think it'll all be about bumping with no intention to pass, rubbing, shoving and otherwise redirecting opponents as they travel around the track. I can't imagine for a second that everyone's going to play nicely as they drive around and around. There'll be as much pushing and shoving as any recent game.

I think teams that use that strategy will end up with to many penalty points assed to themselves.

I think there is a great deal of strategic defenses (without giving up on scoring) , but not for teams with the "A" type personalities that are going for the big points. There are to many weaknesses for those "A" type teams, that rookie teams (and the TrackBall) could easily spoil.

Re: defensive strategies

Quote:

Originally Posted by Capt. Quirk (Post 683671)

Penalties based upon what?

Re: defensive strategies

This is the year for the best defense being an amazing offense. Specializing in defense is not a good idea. Defense doesn't win matches. It helps but the ideal alliance will need three amazing scorers that are not going to be interfered with much by ramming. Some NASCAR style defense will be played such as ramming and bumping corners. We might see a bump and run move for position on the field.

Re: defensive strategies

we plan to knock off opps. balls all during the game and it works really well

Re: defensive strategies

Quote:

Originally Posted by firstbots195 (Post 683680)

What is the 3rd scoring Bot going to be doing?, while the other alliance partners have the 2 trackballs. Waiting to take it's turn, isn't scoring any points and that will happen every lap to every alliance partner.

Re: defensive strategies

I think defense as well as offense will be a part of every lap you make. If my alliance knows team x can hurdle, then that team can expect a poke at the ball thier trying to collect each time one of my alliance partners passes them, which is 3. Not to mention, they have 2 alliance partners going by, and 4 balls. So hopefully you can all imagine how hard it's going to be to get one of those balls up off the ground to hurdle it. Herding, and "de-herding" quickly is the trick.

Re: defensive strategies

There is nothing in the rules that says a defending robot can't make it difficult for an opposing robot to pick up the ball as long as they don't block the track or pin the opponent.

Think about a robot that stops a bot from picking up the ball and then shoves them across the line so they can't come back.

I think there will be a lot more defense than some people are thinking.

Re: defensive strategies

Quote:

Originally Posted by M. Krass (Post 683677)

Penalties based upon what?

<G37> "In all cases involving ROBOT-to-ROBOT contact, the TEAM may
receive a PENALTY and/or their ROBOT may be disqualified if the interaction is
inappropriate or excessive."

I believe they are try to get away from last years bumping & shoving

Re: defensive strategies

Quote:

Originally Posted by Capt. Quirk (Post 683919)

I believe that was in last year's manual also. (I don't have a copy available at this time.) Penalties were rare.

Re: defensive strategies

Quote:

Originally Posted by Capt. Quirk (Post 683919)

A partial quote of this rule is extremely misleading. Here is the entire rule (emphasis mine)

Quote:

Originally Posted by GDC

<G37> ROBOT to ROBOT Interaction - Strategies aimed solely at the destruction, damage, tipping
over, or entanglement of ROBOTS are not in the spirit of the FIRST Robotics Competition
and are not allowed. In all cases involving ROBOT-to-ROBOT contact, the TEAM may
receive a PENALTY and/or their ROBOT may be disqualified if the interaction is
inappropriate or excessive. However, it is noted that FIRST Overdrive is a highly interactive
game. Robust construction of ROBOTS will be very important in this high-speed
competition. ROBOTS should be designed to withstand the high-speed contact that will
occur during the MATCH. Appropriate contact is allowed under the following guidelines:
a. High speed accidental collisions are likely to occur during the MATCH, and are an
expected part of the game. However, high-speed intentional ramming is not acceptable
and will be penalized.
b. Contact within the BUMPER ZONE is generally acceptable.
c. Contact outside of the BUMPER ZONE is generally not acceptable, and will result in a
PENALTY. The offending ROBOT may be disqualified from the MATCH if the offense is
particularly egregious or if it results in substantial damage to another ROBOT. However,
incidental contact outside of the BUMPER ZONE will not be penalized.
d. If a ROBOT extends outside of the perimeter of the STANDARD BUMPERS (the
perimeter of the bumpers is the polygon defined by the outermost corners of each
STANDARD BUMPER segment), it is responsible for the extension's contact with other
ROBOTS. The ROBOT must not use the extension to contact other ROBOTS outside of
the BUMPER ZONE. Likewise, other ROBOTS will not be responsible for contact with
the extension outside of the BUMPER ZONE. Again, incidental contact will not be
penalized.
e. Extension to extension contact between two ROBOTS with appendages outside the
ROBOT perimeter of the STANDARD BUMPERS will generally not be penalized.
f. Contact with a tilted ROBOT outside the BUMPER ZONE (particularly if resulting from
contact within the BUMPER ZONE) will generally be considered incidental contact.
g. A ROBOT may not attach to and/or climb onto a ROBOT on an opposing ALLIANCE
(doing so will be interpreted as an attempt to damage an opposing ROBOT, and will be
penalized as such).
h. Use of any sloped or angled feature of the ROBOT as a wedge to overturn an opposing
ROBOT is explicitly prohibited, and will be assessed as a violation of Rule <R19>.

Any robot pushing or shoving will almost certainly be doing so from within the bumper zone which would appear to be entirely legal.

Re: defensive strategies

I sincerly hope it won't be all about pushing and shoving, there isn't a central goal like the last two years. So there no reason to try and push some one away. They seemed to give the Hurdling robots adequate penalty protection in the rules.

If it does come down to that, I believe that it's a counter-productive strategy for both alliances.

Re: defensive strategies

I was wondering because our arm failed in last year's competition, and we had to resort to defensive moves. our robot was rather light so the best we could do was get between them and the rack, preventing their arms to reach the rack. this year we might have to transition to defense again, if all else fails

Re: defensive strategies

If your opponent has good hurdling robots, playing "keep away" can be an effective defensive strategy. As long as you don't POSSESS the opponent's trackball, you can maneuver it away from their robots. Even herding the opponent's ball across their finish line to give them 2 points is better than allowing them to score 8. Once their ball crosses the line, it will take time for the ball to get back into the home stretch. A decent defensive robot can really slow down the opponent's scoring machines.

Re: defensive strategies

Quote:

Originally Posted by Capt. Quirk (Post 684005)

As some others have already mentioned, there are lots of reasons to push, shove, redirect or otherwise inconvenience your opponents in this game. Sure, they've made things seem on the surface that even the most basic of robots can score points by driving in circles and contribute to an alliance, but I'm confident that reality will quickly render that an ineffective strategy.

If one alliance contains a scoring machine -- hurdling or otherwise -- that is markedly more effective than those machines on the other alliance, using a low-functioning or ineffectual machine to mitigate the effectiveness of the superior machine is an absolutely viable strategy. If the effective machine typically hurdles four times in one match and you hold them to three hurdles, you've significantly decreased their contribution to the overall match score and their contribution to the alliance. By doing that, it might mean you've made a few less laps than you might've otherwise, but as long as you prevent them from scoring more points than you could've earned in the same time frame, you're going to come out on top.