HELP!!!!! Taigene motor load
 

srry if this was already discussed, but its kinda urgent.
we just started to test our arm and claw, but the Taigene motor doesnt hold the wieght. the motor doesnt lock and is slipping. is there away to program the speed controler to have it lock or something we did wrong w/ the motor.
can anyone tell me how to fix it or is this supposed to happen???
is anyone else having the same problem???
(just our wrist is about 6lbs)
if anyone can help plz hurry
we NEED this done b/c our program mentor is comin and we need a complete robot

-team 270

Re: HELP!!!!! Taigene motor load
 

We had the same problem. You would hope that the worm gear would keep it from backdriving, but it doesn't. So we went with the Keyang instead. Programming won't help "lock" it. You are talking about running the motor at a stall (just enough voltage to stop the movement), which is never a good idea. Think about a design mod to solve your problem. Teams in the past with this sort of problem have added in a locking mechanism (like a brake). Or you can try the Keyang motors, they don't backdrive.

Good luck!

Re: HELP!!!!! Taigene motor load
 

Have you tried to put your Victor into Brake mode? The doc:
http://www.ifirobotics.com/docs/ifi-...al-9-25-06.pdf
should help you with this.

-Jim
PS Fans! Use lots of fans on this Victor and motor!

Re: HELP!!!!! Taigene motor load
 

we ran into this problem....its messy to try and create a brake..change the motor...we went through 3 different prototypes..the first with a fisher price and the other with the taigene motor and the third with a taigene motor and a brake....the arm just got too heavy

Re: HELP!!!!! Taigene motor load
 

Just for the sake of clarity, remember that while using Brake mode will cause your motors to slow down more abruptly, it will not prevent your motor from backdriving. If you want to prevent backdrive, you'll either need to add an encoder and control it in software, add a mechanical brake, or use a motor with a worm gear (such as the Denso).

Re: HELP!!!!! Taigene motor load
 

last year our arm back drove sometimes and when it was on brake it completely stopped back drving....

Re: HELP!!!!! Taigene motor load
 

we are familiar with your problem since we encountered the same problem about a week and a half ago. The taigene worm gear inside is all plastic and fine, thus unable to hold in place.
Our solution was two-fold. We used a larger gear ratio to pivot our arm and used springs and frame stop points to smooth the flow.
The main thing is design. Our design eliminates the problem of whether the arm can move or not once a load is present. It doesnt matter for our robot.

The same thing will happen with the window motor, however a double step reduction eliminated any arm movement problems on our second joint. The double reduction eliminated the need for such a huge sprocket at the top of our arm joint, keeping us within design dimensions.

Re: HELP!!!!! Taigene motor load
 

Thank you to those of you who suggested things
team 270 appreciates the help

- team 270

Re: HELP!!!!! Taigene motor load
 

just a note*
there is an Allen screw on the side of the motor and when you tighten the screw it will keep it from falling.

we have ran into some issues with the plastic teeth in the inside of the motor braking off. up to 5-10 teeth in a row. we had all the specs looked up and planned out and we did the calculations to only find that we are only using 60% of each motor (on on each side of our arm mechanism)

if any other teams have experienced this problem and have a solution and would share that would be greatly appreciated, if you could, please PM me your reply.

Re: HELP!!!!! Taigene motor load
 

Does anyone have any estimates on how much load it takes for this to occur? We were planning on using the taigene motor for our elevator (haven't run the whole thing yet) with a 4" spool to reel in the cable. How much weight do you think this will support before backdriving?

Re: HELP!!!!! Taigene motor load
 

We are also using the Taigene motor to operate our lift and also noticed that it slips when we try to hold with the the trackball up. Does anyone know how much load it takes to start failing the plastic teeth?

Re: HELP!!!!! Taigene motor load
 

what kind of reduction are you using?? cause I'm sure it will help, we are about to test tomorrow if our arm can lift the ball up and we have a double stage reduction of about 4:1 and it can carry a 10 pound weight pretty easily

I don't have any numbers for you, but I'm pretty sure reductions can fix any problems you might be having!!

Re: HELP!!!!! Taigene motor load
 

we wern't even lifting the ball and we have two motors on each side of the ball, calculated to be working at about 60% of what they could and they blew in no time for us, moved up and down about 5 times and you can just hear when the teeth of the plastic gears pop off.

i will try to get our gear specs and what not to share with everyone, for now here are some pictures.

Re: HELP!!!!! Taigene motor load
 

are we even allowed two of those motors?? maybe they worked against eachother??? cause we haven't had a problem with ours yet and we are only using one motor. can you show whats on the end of your arm (weight wise and leverage)

Re: HELP!!!!! Taigene motor load
 

i havnt read anything saying we cant, but if anyone says that we cant, please send me a rule number so that i can look into it.




sorry thats all i have right now..
anyways the whole arm structure from where it mounts to the base (including motors, shafts, and gears) weighs 40lbs.

Re: HELP!!!!! Taigene motor load
 

ok well the motor can only handle 30lbs as far as I can remember. so that may be the problem.

Secondly, are those motor exactly the same, or are they a left and a right? (cause I think there are left and right versions). if they are the same they may be fighting eachother like I said earlier.

Hopefully that stuff helps and I hope I'm not wrong about anything:D :D

Re: HELP!!!!! Taigene motor load
 

alright, well even with the second motor, shouldn't it be distributing the load?
they are both a right or a left (not sure which) but we have one of them inverted because yes they would have fought each other if we didnt invert one.

we are working with our engineers that helped us with the arm and we are coming up with some ideas that may also help.

one of the seniors on our team said thursday night "hey frates(a coach), arn't these the motors we kept blowing in '05? i guess they blew 5 before the shipped in '05...and now they bring it up..ha oh well.

i thank you for your help.

Re: HELP!!!!! Taigene motor load
 

<R59> only permits servos and additional CIMs

I'd reccomend switching to Keyangs or Fischer-Prices, if one taigene
motor can't do this.
Also, that looks like very little reduction for an arm of that size. Assuming that the arm takes any more time to raise than a moment, and that reduction is about 5:1, you are putting tremendous load on the motors. You might want to consider further reduction.

Re: HELP!!!!! Taigene motor load
 

but those motors were in the kit of parts... well at least one was, and the other is the same thing

Re: HELP!!!!! Taigene motor load
 

Note the emphasis in my previous post. Just because a motor is in the kit dosen't mean you can automatically use as many of them as you want on your robot.

Re: HELP!!!!! Taigene motor load
 

how does that say i can only use one?

Re: HELP!!!!! Taigene motor load
 

<R60>, on the other hand, states that, other than the motors specifically mentioned in the last part of <R59>, you cannot use more motors than what is given in the kit.

Re: HELP!!!!! Taigene motor load
 

i see what you are getting at...

gahhhh. this really really really really really hurts us...
these rules are really confusing.

i thank your for pointing this out, we must now find away around this...

Re: HELP!!!!! Taigene motor load
 

I would reccomend taking what you have, and placing additional gear or chain reduction down to either 2 Keyang motors, 2 Fischer-price motors (looking at your bot, it looks like you have the machining capability to make an adaptor for the kit gearbox,) or, with enough reduction, a single Taigene motor.

Re: HELP!!!!! Taigene motor load
 

by fisher price motors do you mean the CIM motors or the plastic ones?

we have never used the plastic ones before, what do you think about them?

and with the kit gear box, what would we make it adapt to?

thank you for all of your help again!

Re: HELP!!!!! Taigene motor load
 

Have you considered using a default for the FP motor?
we are currently using that with a 11 tooth sprocket to a 110 (i think) for major reduction and it is under a TON of load... it is performing well though. You wouldn't need that big of reduction but a similar idea with a reduction i'm sure you could life that thing right up.

Re: HELP!!!!! Taigene motor load
 

i am not to familiar with what you are talking about. for the FP motor you are talking about the big plastic one? correct?

if you could, please explain, we are open to any and all ideas right now.

Re: HELP!!!!! Taigene motor load
 

The FP motor is the little silver one with a silver gear on it... it goes into the huge plastic gear box but you don't have to put it through that... you could use a bane bots or a dewalt.... they are small but VERY powerful

http://kidswheels.com/vmchk/Gearboxe...els-Other.html - a fisher price motor on the gearbox

Re: HELP!!!!! Taigene motor load
 

ook i see what you mean now.
im not so sure we will ever do business with banebots again after last year...
is there anything else besides those two?

Re: HELP!!!!! Taigene motor load
 

you could always get a FP gearbox that turns it into the same output type as a CIM and run it through a gear box (like the kit boxes) you could actually prob run 2 thru 1 box

link

Re: HELP!!!!! Taigene motor load
 

after looking at your setup, can you confirm what your gear reduction ratio is.
We are running a window keyang motor for our arm to lift the ball and right now with the reduction of 64:1, we have no issues or strains on the motor whatsoever. The ball can be held in place at any height with no problems.
As stated earlier in this thread, additional reduction is probably your solution.
:D

Re: HELP!!!!! Taigene motor load
 

so i am assuming that two FP motors would be legal?

Re: HELP!!!!! Taigene motor load
 

alright i will bring this up with our engineers and see if it is possible. the nice thing is that we are about 5-10llbs under weight which helps a lot when you run into problems like this. (:

again, i thank you all for your support!

Re: HELP!!!!! Taigene motor load
 

yes 2 FP's are legal

Re: HELP!!!!! Taigene motor load
 

alright thank you so much.

i have been talking to our engineer throughout the night. hopefully we can come up with something!

Re: HELP!!!!! Taigene motor load
 

Agreed, one or two keyang motors with additional reduction would probably be your best option at this point.

Re: HELP!!!!! Taigene motor load
 

well it looks as if we have solved our problem!
1 taigene motor and 2 globe motors.

please tell me this is legal :D

Re: HELP!!!!! Taigene motor load
 

it is

Re: HELP!!!!! Taigene motor load
 

great. thanks again everyone for your help!

Re: HELP!!!!! Taigene motor load
 

You cannot use 3 of the taigene motors if I am reading this correctly.
<R58> Motors, pumps, and, Robot Controllers from previous robots shall not be used in addition to
those provided in the 2008 Kit Of Parts. They may be used as direct one-to-one SPARE
PARTS for those provided if the provided part fails or is damaged. They can only be used if
they are identical to the part being replaced.
 Note that the Fisher-Price motor found in the 2008 Kit Of Parts (Part number 00968-
9015) is different from the Fisher-Price motors used in most previous FIRST
competitions. Only the Fisher-Price 00968-9015 motor may be used as a SPARE PART
for the Fisher-Price motors provided in the 2008 Kit Of Parts.
<R59> Additional motors specifically permitted on 2008 FRC ROBOTS include:
 All motors, actuators, and servos provided in the 2008 Kit Of Parts,
 HITEC HS-322HD servos,
 FIRST Tech Challenge (FTC) servos (Innovation First part number 276-2162),
 FIRST Tech Challenge (FTC) motors (Innovation First part number 276-2163),
 One or two additional 2-1/2” CIM motors (part #FR801-001 and/or M4-R0062-12 in addition
to those provided in the Kit Of Parts. This means that up to four, and no more, 2-1/2” CIM
motors can be used on the ROBOT.

Re: HELP!!!!! Taigene motor load
 

bruceb-
we are only using 1 taigene, 4CIMs, and 2 globe motors