Mentors VS Students
 

We're having some problems on our team as Mentor vs. Student powers lately.

It seems that about 5 of us will start working on the robot with our previously decided design and one of our mentors will come back from the shop with the part already built but in a completely different design and most of the time very quickly and poorly done.

Then about half the time we're able to convince them to change the part back and the other half of the time they "convince" us with their supreme knowledge( :rolleyes: )that their idea or part is better.

Now I thought the purpose of the mentors was to suggest things sometimes and help us out when we needed it. Not to change our design and make half-baked parts.

Its gotten to the point where I almost feel like dropping out of the club and focusing on MESA and other things.

Not to mention the fact that there are only about half the students doing much work, the other half just sit around and shoot the breeze.

I was wondering if any of you have faced similar situations or have any suggestions.

Keep in mind we're a fairly small team with about 4-7 students and 2-3 mentors at each build meeting

Thanks for any help

Re: Mentors VS Students
 

In a way, we're having the same problem. Not to the extent that you guys seem to have, but the same general issue. Our mentors decided a while ago that the robot would be professionally welded, and when we had a debate, one of the mentors called for a vote. The first option was send the part of the robot they wanted. The second option was supposed to be debate some more, but we never got there. Tomorrow is another build session, and we're planning to talk to the mentors together.

I suggest talking to the students first, as to present a united front. We have maybe ten to fifteen students who are deeply involved and three mentors. It might be easier to collect all the students together and discuss this without the mentors if there is a smaller number of people on the team. In my experience, the larger the group, the fewer opportunities to gather people's busy schedules together and talk about important subjects. After lunch might be a good time when people aren't waiting for the debate to end so they can have lunch, and people are generally more easy-going when they're fed.

Re: Mentors VS Students
 

i dont know if this helps your situation too much, but our team motto is student designed, student built, and mentor approved. our mentors are strictly hands off, but for design, they play a big role, but they do not make the decisions for us, they say well that would work better, or that wont be as affective, but as long as a decision would get you by, they do not change the design or idea. you should have a meeting between your team captains and mentors and politely discuss the problem, just make sure they know what first is all about and that this is not all about winning, it is about learning, we are a 4 year team this year, we are very fortunate mentor and student wise to make good decisions and put out good ideas and our mentors do not have to play the biggest role in building the robot, but they still do a ton, but they know that this is our game, not theres. good luck with everything!

Re: Mentors VS Students
 

We have never had a similar problem, so I don't feel that I can offer any advice on how to fix your problem =\

However, I will say that I definitely think that the mentors shouldn't be influencing your designs and ideas that much... isn't the point of FIRST to get students involved in technology, not adults? We're a rookie team, but we have no mentors, no coach. It's just 10 kids out on their own, and we might not have the best design, but at least it's all ours.

I hope everything works out for you guys.

Re: Mentors VS Students
 

Let me start off by saying that every team is set up differently. Some teams have a technically strong student base that takes the initiative and does all or a majority of the work. Other teams have very professional, experienced and dedicated mentors who do a majority of the work but (hopefully) walk the students through the whole process to give them a look into what being an engineer is all about. A majority of teams though have some sort of mentor to student ratio that they feel provides the best experience for both groups.

I think that it should really be the students decision as to how much mentor involvement they want on the team, but this should be determined with everyone present and should be something that is followed from that point on. It isn't right to one day say that you, as a student group, want to design and build everything yourself and want the mentors to mind their own business, then the next day ask the mentors for help because you realize you don't know what to do. Having technical mentors available to you is an amazing privilege and should not be abused. These professionals come in on their own time and should be treated with respect.

That being said, it also isn't right for a mentor to deviate from the teams approved design, just as it would be for a student to do the same thing. A team meeting should be held with the team as a whole and the matter should be discussed openly and maturely. Depending on how your team is currently structured and what the ratio of mentor to student work is, the mentor may not have felt that what he did was out of line. I know personally, being a freshmen in college and coming back to mentor my old team over the MLK weekend, I had to be called out by a current student about doing to much work on the robot before even I realized it myself. So please leave tempers out it and discuss the matter as adults (yes, you may not legally be an "adult", but FRC is for big kids, so grow up) Most of all, remember that your on a TEAM, and on a team there should be no "mentors vs students".

Just my two cents,
Mike C.

Re: Mentors VS Students
 

Where can I go to get some of these students with initiative???!!!

My problem as a mentor is motivation and getting the students to do anything. We typically have 10-15 total students on the team. 2 or 3 at the most are even vaguely interested in acknowledging (much less learning) any kind of basic engineering concepts that are necessary to build an effective robot. The vast majority just want to hook something together and hope it works, while having a good time jacking around with their friends.

Do the mentors just sit back and let the team turn into a social club with a robot that will go around the track and little else?

Do you work with the 1 or 2 students who really want to do this and let them carry the rest of the team?

What are some good methods of getting students to show some more initiative?

Re: Mentors VS Students
 

With some students if you say "who wants to do x thing" or "we need someone to do x thing" they will just sit there. So you can say "you, you, and you just volunteered to do x thing" is a start.

On the issue of Students versus Mentors, here is a concept that both parties need to get their heads around:

The mathematics of FIRST mentorship

Mentors focusing on making themselves progressively unnecessary takes work. Students focusing on taking initiative takes work on their part too. It is good to remind each other occasionally to drive toward these targets.

Re: Mentors VS Students
 

The benefit of this program isn't just to have students learn about engineering. It's about the teaching of engineering and design through mentorship. From what I see, your problem is not that your design ideas aren't being heard, and the mentors are doing what they want. I think the problem within your team is more of a lack of communication. Work with your mentors.

There should be reasons you have for designing parts a certain way. (ex: Arm has to be x inches long in order to fit in the starting box) If you're there with the mentors while parts are being made, then you can share your ideas and concerns and designs and they can also give insight and advice. I think the issue may be that all the students are doing work in "one room" and the mentors are doing work in "another room".

Re: Mentors VS Students
 

Being a mentor is a delicate balancing act. Mentors bring "life experience" and skills that come from years of working with materials, tools and having seen solutions to problems that might help with the robot build.
But FIRST is all about the students. The mentors are only there FOR the students. That's not always a lot of fun but the compensation is having a lot of responsibility. Or so it seems.
For example, safety is everyone's responsibility but this especially falls to the mentors since they are the Responsible Adult. The same can be said about design. Just from an advantage of age, mentors have probably seen more mechanisms and understand their design and have a responsibility to present ideas or even explain why they might not think your idea is a good one (ouch!).
In the end, the mentors could probably do it all by themselves but that would totally defeat the purpose of FIRST. The other extreme is allowing a totally hands off approach which denies the team the advantage of the mentor's resources and experiences.
Mentors have to know when to let people struggle with a concept and when to step in to help drill, tap, cut when there is a time constraint. Sometimes, help avert failure, or even disaster. (I'm not saying mentors can't be the cause of either failure or disaster, but they bear the full responsibility of the results. A student cannot be held to the same accountability because they ARE the student.)
Mentoring is a very "check your ego at the door" job. I've presented various concepts from time to time and have had them rejected by the students. No problem. There is always more than one way to skin a cat... (I know 6) and what may not be the best method, in my opinion, may still work.
So being a mentor is not about pushing students around to force them to do it MY way, because that has so far, never happened to me. (except when it comes to safety glasses... you WILL wear them!) I AM enthusiastic. I want to share what I know and I have to do that in a way that doesn't sound like I'm being pushy.
All I'm saying is that it is not always easy to know HOW to mentor so I'd be surprised if any team never had some friction between students and mentors, but it's not some kind of Student Versus Mentor game. Please allow the mentors the benefit of the doubt and that they are trying their best to help you achieve in FIRST because it really isn't about Mentors, it about you guys.

Steve

Re: Mentors VS Students
 

You've identified some of the issues that are slowing the build and that is a good thing. A team where everyone works together towards the common goal is an achievement in itself. Getting organized and staying on track/on task is a big part of achieving the goal. Communicating with each other during the design/build is another part of this. If you can, ask for a team meeting to get everyone back on track, working with each other. Liz is spot on.

Also, it can be very hard to stick with a team when things are not running as smoothly as they could be. Many students already have a full plate with academics and school events, as well as other clubs and organizations. At the same time, sticking with a team that is struggling and developing can be rewarding and satisfying - knowing that you are playing a part in helping the team improve.

Another suggestion that we've found helpful is to make notes of this build/competition season and have a postmortem at the end of it, addressing what worked and what did not.

Re: Mentors VS Students
 

This is always a pressure point within organizations that generates lots of "issues". At a simplistic level, groups go through the forming, norming, storming, and performing stages... but often get stuck in "storming" due to conflicting goals and expectations. I see this come up often when team leadership vs membership have different ideas or goals on where they are headed.

My motto has been you can't succeed without failure. It may sound funny, but in general I find this true. If you succeed, you typically are not 100% absolutely positively sure on why you succeeded. But have a failure? Oh boy, hindsight is great isn't it!

Mentors can either hide the experience of failure or support the right of a student in gaining that experience. This may sound cruel or cold or heartless -- but in the longer view my personal experience has been that it is always the better choice. Ok, as a mentor its not "fun" to watch and you end up biting your tongue a lot, but still...

The problem is how much failure do you allow to occur (no one LIKES to fail or PLANS to fail... but it happens anyway). Certainly where any safety issue exists, the "responsible adult" in us must step forward to prevent bad things from happening. But as a mentor I'd rather support a crappy design and the passion behind it (while pointing out some possible pitfalls/weaknesses based upon experience) rather than killing off the enthusiasm by seemingly taking over.

Whether the team is mentor run, student staffed or student run, mentor advised or some other combination, this is fine as long as all team members understand that is the team culture and buy-in.

One last thought. Just as you cannot be a leader without followers, you cannot have a team without students.

But that is just another set of random opinions.

Re: Mentors VS Students
 

The relation between Mentor/Student should evolve as your team gains experience.
As dcbrown posted, Failure teaches, sucess just is. Our team is also a rookie team. We finally bonded after the van motor ( my dumb idea:( ) failed to hold the arm up. Ideas poured out like water and the design by students was on.
I am no longer the sole driving force behind design, and the students have started to assert themselves on the team.
Each team develops at their own pace, depending on needs, personalities, and set goals.
Set the goals, set the design, then build the parts. By then, everyone is on the same page.:)
Definitely work out the differences before the whole thing becomes a bad experience.

Re: Mentors VS Students
 

Ok, another meaningless rant...

Cognative learning styles. There are "otters", "squirrels", "mice", and "moles". Otters just jump in and swim! Experience by doing! Lots of students are otters. I'm not sure if its true of most engineers, but I'm more of a "squirrel" - a fact finder: go here, go there, and examine EVERYTHING before making a decision. "Otters", understandably, drive me crazy! But I understand and recognize their different action/cognative style and learn to adjust/co-exist & support them.

Anyway, if mentors don't recognize and have a strategy for handling the different action styles, channel them to appropriate activities for example, then lots of intra-group friction can occur.

Re: Mentors VS Students
 

Looking forward to this fall your team might want to engage in a series of structured activities. It can accomplish two things. It helps the group move through the group dynamics stated above. That helps a lot when the build season starts. And it give the group an opportunity to do some fun stuff. It is tough getting to the performing stage in 6 weeks with a group that hasn't worked together before.

Our team did a series of exercises all through the fall and it is paying benefits now. I wish we had done the MOE egg toss trebuchet. But our other stuff was good enough.

Re: Mentors VS Students
 

If the goal is to 'force' a failure to get the team jump started started then the idea isn't dumb but really smart.

Now we are talking about original intent, but pssssttt, we will keep it a secret and not tell your students.

Really, it was genius.

Re: Mentors VS Students
 

Also, the Quicksilver (Karl Rohnke) series of books has lots of games for groups designed to help a group get through the first couple of evolutionary steps.

An idea I've always toyed with but never had the opportunity to do was to bring in a local dance studio/facilitator that does basic dance survival for teens. It always looked like a blast and helps break down a whole set of communication barriers between team members.

Re: Mentors VS Students
 

Ditto. What a great strategy to get students to own the process! Pure genius!

Re: Mentors VS Students
 

I may be miss quoting but I believe that Dave Lavery said that FIRST is as good as it is because it is a program were students work side by side with engineers (mentors).

My thoughts, all teams are different. What works for our team won't necessarily work for yours. What works this year for your team may not work next year. I believe that with out engineers and mentors, working side by side with students, FIRST would not be successful. As a mentor I have learned a lot from students. I wish that I had a great program when I was younger that I could have learned from engineers.

I know that people say that you learn from your mistakes but even more valuable is learning from others successes. You see posted here on CD how great team 71, 111, 47, 45, 1114 are and how everyone would like to be as good. All of these teams have a good mentor/student relationships where they all work side by side as a team. It should never be us or them it should always be WE are working on the robot.

Talk out your issues and see how the team can grow. Posting here about internal team issues only brings division on the team.

Re: Mentors VS Students
 

To students:

I know you think you know it all. I was in the same boat a few years back when I was a student on a team. I'll let you know that I WAS WRONG! Please listen to your mentors. They know what they are talking about. (All those degrees and years of experience have to add up to something, eh?)

Also, don't forget that your mentors are volunteering their time to help you. Without them you wouldn't have a team. So what's more important? Having a team or winning an ego battle over who's part goes on the robot?

Re: Mentors VS Students
 

We had a similar problem with one of our mentors recently and what I have to say is that you should always consider what the mentors have to offer your team. Do not make them mad or they may leave your team, it is fully voluntary that they are helping. With that said, FIRST is all about students. It is what you as the student will get out of the experience. Talk with you mentors in a mature fashion and let them know how you feel. As hard as it may be, remember gracious professionalism.

Re: Mentors VS Students
 

My team has it set up where we (the mentors/teachers) don't even discuss the design until all of the students have presented their ideas. Also, we are half way with build season without much done. That is because students tend to put things off. Once you get down to the last 2 weeks though they work that much harder to make up for it. Truth is, sometimes a mentor just needs to be put in their place. They may not like it and may complain that they are just trying to help. But sometimes the best way to help is to leave good enough alone. Besides, let's pretend you win and your mentors did all of the work...Did it mean anything? The mentors proved that they could
out-engineer a bunch of students. Not really something to be proud of. And the students proved that they can do nothing but take orders. Once again, nothing to be proud of. If the mentors really want to help, they will listen and let you do the work. Don't complain if it seems like too much work, it wouldn't be FIRST if it wasn't too much. Just do your best and work at it. Good luck at everything, and I hope to hear how this all works out for you.

Re: Mentors VS Students
 

Try having a student or two and mentor work together on a specific part of a robot. The student's should be the ones who design and build it, but the mentors are still there to give ideas and make the students aware of the pros and cons of each idea.

Thats how we try to do it, but as mentioned before, each team is different.

Re: Mentors VS Students
 

May I go off on a slight tangent for a moment? The quote above has been thrown about quite a bit - several times already in this thread, and many, many times over the past few years. And I keep wondering to myself "where is this coming from?" Because, with regard to the statement itself, I have only one comment to make - bullcrap.

Can anyone show me a single piece of FIRST documentation, or show a piece of FIRST literature, or quote a public statement by a FIRST founder, or cite a reference by any senior FIRST official, that sources this quote? Can you show me anything in the FIRST charter that says the programs is "all about the students"? Can you find anywhere in the FIRST vision statement that makes that claim?

No. You can't.

Why? For one very simple reason - FIRST is not that narrow-minded. If you think that FIRST is "all about the students" and therefore only about the students, then - to be blunt - you just don't get it. Look at the vision statement from FIRST. Listen to the way that the founder of the program describes FIRST when he talks about it (in particular, if you can find copies of Dean's kick-off speeches from the late 1990's, they are very direct and on-point about this). Attempt to understand the perspectives of the members of the FIRST Board of Directors, the major suppliers, and the founding sponsors, and what they are trying to accomplish.

The idea that FIRST is "all about the students" is an urban myth that has grown in the community, and allowed to florish because it has been unchallenged. Well, I think it is time to stand up and challenge it. Because it is much too limiting. It is forcing us to look at the world through much too narrow of a viewpoint.

FIRST is about changing a culture. Yes, a big part of their implementation plan involves affecting the perceptions and appreciation of students, and having them carry the message out to the cultural mainstream of this country. They want students to be inspired. But they don't stop there. It is not just about affecting the students. Inspiration happens at many levels, and cultural change can come from anywhere. Students, mentors, schools, corporations, teams, and communities are all affected by this program (or should be). And every team that limits themselves to "just students" automatically limits themselves in their ability to have an impact on a larger community.

Ask any mentor that has worked with this program for more than a year "have you been inspired?" Ask any sponsor "why do you support our team, year after year?" Ask any supporting corporation "why do you dedicate your organizational time, resources and employees to this?" I am willing to bet that most of them will come back and say that it is because they are just as inspired by the program as the students, and they have reached a point where they just have to participate. They get just as enthusiastic and supportive of the mission of FIRST as any of the students. And they are just as critical to successfully fulfilling the vision of cultural change as the students.

Students, mentors, schools, corporations, teams, and communities - they are all critical to the success of FIRST. Can you help the process along by only focusing on one of these sub-cultures? Maybe. But you are be nowhere near as effective and productive as if you include them all. And to ignore the advantages of the resources they can bring to help address the problem is - bluntly put - really dumb.

-dave


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Re: Mentors VS Students
 

I'm going to start by echoing what others have said: you need to talk about this as a team. Not a team of students, but a team. This includes everyone.

You have decided on a design. Good. One or more mentors are building parts for another design. Not good. Part of this team meeting should be to bring everyone up to speed on "this is the design we chose as a team, stick to it." If there are changes, make them publicly, without just building them.

The mentors are there for several reasons, and their role can be made clear in a team handbook. On some teams, they are only there to make sure no one gets hurt. On others, they work alongside the students to produce a design and then build from it. On all, they should teach the students--and be willing to learn themselves.

About the non-participating students: Get them involved. There should be more than enough work for everyone. As said before, tell them they "volunteered" for something. They did: they made it obvious that they had nothing to do. Now they have something to do. If they don't want to work on the robot, they can work on awards (Woodie Flowers and Chairman's come to mind). If they just plain don't want to work, give them the option to leave the team.

Two further things: a team handbook may help you in the future. This will have team rules and what to expect in it. It will also help define the mentor-student roles.

The other thing has to do with the design/building of the robot. This story is highly applicable to FIRST, especially the list at the end.

Re: Mentors VS Students
 

For many, this may be a new concept, seeing the full picture. The whole. For me to visualize it, I think of a pie with separate pieces. Each piece is part of the whole and, as Dave says, 'critical to successfully fulfilling the vision of culture change'.

It is easy to have tunnel vision, sometimes getting bogged down. It is more difficult to see the bigger picture and set long term goals. Those long term goals include areas such as establishing ways of cycling in rookie students and mentors as veterans leave or move on, sustaining the team. Keeping sponsors interested and involved, knowing their contributions are appreciated. Keeping teams healthy and active over the long term.

When everyone is on the same page and working together, the team is supported and much better equipped to deal with changing the culture within the community and beyond.

Thanks Dave!

Re: Mentors VS Students
 

Like most of the things that come up in this competition, this mentor/student role is a real-world engineering problem. Most companies have groups of energetic young engineers and older engineers who have been around a few years. Striking a good balance between the energy and innovation of the younger girls/guys and the wisdom of the older guys/girls is critical to building a good team. So the 'problems' discussed in this thread are not specific to FIRST or to the student/mentor relationship but rather to generic team building and team dynamics.

Having said that, there is one big problem with my analogy. Even young professional engineers have endured the academics to earn the title. That is not so with high school students. On our team, the students make the decisions but the mentors provide guidance, making them aware of decision criteria etc. The mentors provide guidance about process (safety, using correct tooling, quality assurance, documentation, do the math first!!) during the build phase.

I disagree with the "letting them fail" philosophy. To begin with, there is only 6 weeks and precious little time for repeated failures. And this is not a good real world example. Engineers are paid to deliver on time and within budget, not to fail. I encourage students to listen when a mentor says that something will not work.

Let me put this into perspective. Our team has a great set of dedicated mentors and teachers. I added up the cost of this group the other day, if the team paid the mentors (at their employers normal rates) it would cost nearly $2,000 per hour! So the mentors are a VALUABLE resource, to not use them wisely is kinda silly. But the focus should be on the students.

HTH

Re: Mentors VS Students
 

I'm repeating what's already been said, but frankly it's important enough to bear repeating. You've fallen into a typical high school mindset trap, the terrible, unfixable "Us vs. Them" mentality. That's not to say that this mindset doesn't exist in other arenas, just later in life most people figure out that it doesn't work. Neither side gets what they want. And both sides get a whole lot of needless headache.

First off, both sides need to respect the other. By calling their parts "very quickly and poorly done." it would appear you don't harbor a whole lot of respect for them.

In the same token, if your mentors are running off creating "half baked" parts, without telling you, or explaining them to you, then it wouldn't appear that they are showing a terribly large amount of respect for you either.

You don't specifically mention what their backgrounds are, but if they are leading the team, I'm going to assume even if they don't have engineering degrees they at least have plenty of experience working on things of this nature, and that is worth just as much, if not more. If you sit down, and honestly think about, most likely you'll find that they do know than you do. I know mine do.

Even if you do look into your heart of hearts, and you still think you know more than they do, remember, without adults, your team is pretty much sunk. So start showing them some respect, or they just might leave. I don't think they want, and I hope that's not what you want either.

So, show them some respect. You might be surprised what you get in return. No one wants to deal with "know-it-all" teenagers. I've spent about a month over the past two school years shadowing engineers in industry and mechanics at shops. I've spent 5 years building FRC robots. And if you want to listen to adults, you'll find that they are ecstatic that you are willing to listen and want to learn.

Re: Mentors VS Students
 

Sorry that I'm simply skimming most of the replies -- this is a tough subject so I'll give my reply without letting another's thought sway mine.

It sounds like the mentors don't trust the students, and the students haven't been given an opportunity to be trusted by the mentors. In the end this will only burn everyone out.

First, your team needs firm leadership. It in incontravertibly the most important role on the team. Teams in the real world have team leads, and it's for a purpose. There has to be one person everyone can go to in order to keep everything straight. This will greatly help your communication issues. You (the students) need to let the lead know that you have a need to more effectively communicate with your mentors. If you don't agree with the leadership, well, that's tough sometimes. If you're good, you will learn the ways to get your ideas heard (usually it takes ALOT (aka TON, GRANDE, BEAUCOUP) of work on your part) regardless of whether you and the leadership get along.

Second, you need to sit down with your mentors and tell them how disappointed in them you are. Perhaps they are going off somewhere to build XX component because they themselves are unsure of how it's built and want to be able to learn on their own how to build it without students losing faith when they mess up 20 times before getting it right. Your disappointment should never be focused on something like this; it instead should be disappointing that they expect to use something they built during this private process without involving you at all so you could at least begin to fathom the realm of processes that went into the design and its iterations from the original.

However, to get past #2 in the 2008 season this far in, you will need some concrete evidence that trump's the mentor's decisions and/or bad fabrication methods. Usually "quality control" testing works for this regard so long as your team's budget isn't on the line. Be sure to record it via video tape or digital camera video, as it really is an important part of the engineering process. Remember, the QC process is important, NOT the fact that a part built by XYZ engineer failed -- NEVER point that out as it's rarely important: always stay positive! We literally sat and threw the trackball at our frame for 10 minutes throwing/dropping it from 6' up at different angles just to make sure the frame would hold itself together. We had to go back and support some things a mentor (aka me) didn't account for, but that's what a team is there for and I'm glad I was corrected by the students.

Third, students will realize after their first year that there are no magic wands in this world that make Cool Idea #1958742.b come to reality without extenuous thought and effort that usually includes CAD or a prototype. If it doesn't have either of those, it's usually not a cool idea that foster's ideas and input. To speed this process up, we encourage our Freshmen to do FTC only. This allows them to learn our entire engineering process and community image in a smaller, screw-up-friendly environment. Literally, if they build something to try and go fast only to have the wheels fall off at competition, no mentors say "I told you so". For FTC we simply guide them and let them take whatever way they want. It's then they realize that there are many ways to do something, and the best way usually is already being done by those who have already done it. After that, you'll see the pipe dream robots disappear.

Now on to reading the plethora of wisdom said before I got here...

Re: Mentors VS Students
 

Exactly my thought also after reading about the failure leading to engagement by the students!

Failure that teaches and inspires isn't failure at all! But if we could just successfully plan that failure we would really be content! :)

Re: Mentors VS Students
 

Brandon, can we change it so that I can spotlight this whole post?

What I love about Dave is that he's not afraid to speak the truth, even if people don't want to hear it. This is the truth folks. I don't like to read big long posts, but this one is actually valid.

This is a tough time in the build season, we're all getting down and tired, I know. Read through this post, it can help to give you perspective :D

Re: Mentors VS Students
 

men·tor –noun - a wise and trusted counselor or teacher.
via Dictionary.com

The Keywords there are wise, trusted, counselor and teacher. In FIRST, the word mentor has its own meaning. Due to the process of building a robot being very intensive, it is important for teams to have mentors who can step in and work with the students. The students simply do not know how to build a robot on their own. Listen to Dave Lavery's speech from Kickoff 2008 about this. Other members have mentioned things that you should do instead so I am not going to repeat them. I am going to tell you how things work on our team and then you can pick and choose to whatever works for you.

On our team, there are no power struggles or split decisions. We always come to a resolution and do what we feel is right at that time. The reason behind this is simple - we are united. I don't want to brag but we have a pretty good record in FIRST games and one of the biggest reasons is the communication is right between the team. As far as the robot is concerned, we leave it up to the tradesmen and other technical mentors to decide what is right. Everyones input is taken into serious consideration and after hours of discussion and intense thought, we try to build the simplest and most powerful thing we can think of. The "robot builders" have final say in what the final design is. The rest of us can only put out ideas. When it comes to strategy, our drive team coach has final say. When it comes to programming, I have final say being the programming mentor. And when it comes to anything administrative, Mr. C has final say. Beware though, everyone has actually earned this respect by working hard and doing the right things. All of us never step on each others feet either. We respect each others decision and forgive mistakes. Mistakes are a part of life and FIRST. We also learn to deal with each others personalities because with such a large team, there will be disputes and the such.

When I was a student, I learned very quickly that the easier I could "accept" their mentorship, the easier it was for them to listen to me and my ideas. I earned their respect and trust through dedication and hard work. Many students on the team now are doing exactly the same thing. The more thankful and dedicated we were to working with them and submitting to them, the better the robot turned out. This is because now we are working together. We trusted them enough to build a good robot. I know this will not be the case with every team, but when it comes to the robot, try to think of everything in logical, practical and engineering terms. And most importantly, keep it simple. If you have certain guidelines to follow, all of you will agree on something.

My message is that you should try to find something that works as a team. No team is perfect and no team has perfect mentors or students. If you want to have a good year, you have to learn to work together. Mr. Cokeley always says if you build the team first, the robot will come. Remember, you are on the same side as your mentors, not on the other side. If you have to have a vs. game between them, then well, good luck. Personally, I have more respects for mentors on my team than any other team or anyone in FIRST. The reasoning for this is simple - I work with them on a daily basis and I know they are authentic, real people who are dedicated to doing the right thing and providing the best experience for everybody. I do not know mentors outside the team personally at that level so I cannot vouch for them like that. I am glad to be a part of such a team. I hope that your students and mentors can strive to achieve similar goals and have a good and fun year. Good luck.

Re: Mentors VS Students
 

And just to be really clear - A mentor can really be effective if she can finesse a work session where the students invent, fail, recover and learn in a time and cost constrained fashion. The mentor doesn't have to prevent the failure. Just make sure it gets done soon enough to allow the team to convert the 'failure' into a 'success'.

Re: Mentors VS Students
 

Going back to the first post in this thread, I am wondering one thing. Why, oh why, is it assumed that there can only be one design for a component?

Pardon me, but the BeachBots currently have three grippers in various stages of construction. Each uses a different actuation system and has different strengths and weaknesses. But we won't know which works best until we actually put them on our practice bot and drive them around. Fortunately, we planned for this and merely need to remove a single bolt and secure wires and or pnuematic tubes to make the change over. By the way our "real" robot will also be built to make a quick change-over possible. It does wonders for maintainability. Having a spare arm that you can put on in 5 minutes or less intimidates the hardware into not breaking.

In the end, it is probable that none of the three grippers we are building now will be the final design. We will learn from each and make adjustments so that the final result works even better.

In terms of resouces, the BeachBots are a medium resource team. We have about 12 students and several mentors. But we get a lot done because we don't spend time arguing about what we should do or how it should be designed. Instead we put the effort into exploring new concepts, builing prototypes so we can demonstrate how well (or not) they work and refining our designs until they not only work but are elegant in their operation.

So stop whining and let them build their design and you build yours, just do it in such a way that they can easily be changed out and may the better design win!

Re: Mentors VS Students
 

When mentors and students battle it's the team that loses.

Re: Mentors VS Students
 

To me, this does not sound like an issue of robot design or who's building what.

What it sounds like to me is that the team (both mentors and students) have not defined their roles within the team, and this is a far more critical issue than robot design. It's even more critical now that you are in the middle of the build season.

When 1824 was formed, the 2 teacher/mentors decided that the team would follow the student designed / student built model. This gave us a proper division of labor within the team. When I came on board, last year, I had the same philosophy.

Whether the robot is student designed and built or mentor designed and built ... or anything in between ... the roles of each individual has to be defined.

Re: Mentors VS Students
 

you dont go to the doctor and then prescribe your own treatment anyway

there is a reason they are the mentors and students are the students. Get the experience and training so you can come back in the future as a mentor.

Re: Mentors VS Students
 

Unfortunately my experience with mentors has been largely negative. Obviously, it is colored by my experiences. I'd been meaning to start my own thread on this while CD was still nice and active around the build thing, but this one is as good as any.

Background: I was recently "fired" from my team after a particular mentor decided that I have an impossible personality. She said to the faculty representative from my school that she would leave if I wasn't asked to, so he "chose" her simply because the maelstrom that would have been kicked up around her departure is an order of magnitude larger than the one I managed to make.

My initial problem with this was that there had been no warning and no one had asked me to change my attitude or the way I dealt with my peers. Furthermore I felt that part of the goal of FIRST is to teach people how to work in a team environment, so if someone is difficult and not good at teamwork, I would hope that a team and mentors would work with that individual to improve their skills rather than just kicking them off. In addition I feel that mentors should be role models in their actions as well as their words, and "I'll quit if you don't fire him" doesn't seem to be a very mature action, nor one you would want future business leaders to emulate.

My point here? It's possible for mentors to ACTUALLY be wrong. I know it's easy to feel like they're wrong all the time because of our teenagerly self-righteous tunnel vision, and equally easy to refute that viewpoint because they're older so obviously they have more experience and therefore better intuition. I feel the true answer lies somewhere in the middle: Everyone can be wrong sometimes and nobody's perfect.

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"My initial problem with this was that there had been no warning and no one had asked me to change my attitude or the way I dealt with my peers"

Wow, that is tough medicine! I wish it had not happened but perhaps it is a real-world lesson for you. I have been part of many teams where the leader's philosophy of team-building included letting people go till he/she ended up with the combinations of attitudes and skill-sets they required. In the real world, you don't always get asked to change your attitude. Sometimes you just get asked to leave. So next time you join a new team, be polite, productive and deferential till you get an idea of what the team leaders expect. There is something to be learned (sometimes hard to find) from everyone you meet.

Re: Mentors VS Students
 

Well we dont have that problem. Our mentors let us do all the work and if they see that we cant do it they suggest but dont exactly give us the solution. Im glad they dont because that way we learn it instead of them giving us shortcuts.

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But in any case, you should not tolerate anyone just sitting around doing nothing productive. I'm working, don't consume my oxygen.
And he's so very articulate and polite when he says it. His signature quote isn't just fluff (wordy harry, indeed!).

Re: Mentors VS Students
 

One place to start with teams whose mentor/student working relationship seems out of balance would be to have all the mentors (and students) re-read the mentor guide on the FIRST website.

The "its all about me" is inappropriate behavior for students or mentors. (A sudden and unannounced change of design/implementation behavior is a statement of "its all about me" - "I *know* better than you", etc. in my humble opinion. I've seen this attitude from both students and mentors. This type of power struggle often is just the tip of larger submerged group communication & trust issues.)

FIRST Mentoring Guide

"Allowing and encouraging independent thought"

"Mentors grow and learn new perspectives from the young minds brainstorming and working under their tutelage."

"Team members learn technical and organizational skills well enough to be assigned some mentoring roles."

"Provide students with opportunities to make choices, both good and bad."

"Let the kids know that they will have a large part in building the team’s robot once they have learned and practiced the necessary skills…...and follow through with your promises."

Re: Mentors VS Students
 

You sound like you're exactly the way I was in high school. I too got this medicine, but not from a FIRST team. Looking back, there WERE several clues, hints, and sometimes obvious, blatant suggestions that I simply ignored. Things like this never "just happen". The mentor probably didn't just have a "I'll quit if you don't fire him" attitude -- it was probably a "I'm getting stressed, and burnt out by dealing with this person" attitude, at which point the leadership HAD to chose. If you're anything like I was, you didn't change your attitude at all to accomodate such a situation.

I hate that you're missing such a great opportunity, however perhaps you can ask to make amends with that mentor. Hopefully your maelstrom-style bridge burning wasn't so bad that you can't go back and apologize. If not, hopefully there's next year.

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Well... for that reasion we tend to keep our mentors out of the shop and keep them working on fianances.:yikes:

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So what you are saying is: you don't have mentors, you have accountants.

That is unfortunate. Both you and your "mentors" are missing out on some great opportunities. I would really urge you to go back and listen to the discussion from the kick-off. Hopefully, some of the comments there will strike a chord.

-dave




.

Re: Mentors VS Students
 

Something else to think of: Sometimes mentors may see a design flaw and try to correct or plan for it if something fails. They may talk and try to steer or get the students to see the problem, but if they don't... said flaw might not manifest until later.

But yes, it's disturbing to be handed a new part when the design hasn't shifted.

Re: Mentors VS Students
 

This is most definitely true. And most of the time, it seems to be that any given flaw is noticed during the one build session when the person who initially designed that part is absent. No amount of communication will alleviate the frustration of coming back to a new part in this scenario, which seems to happen more often than not in my experience. It's not intentional; it just happens.

It basically boils down to how open-minded everyone is and (agreed) the magnitude of any trust issues.

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Its easy to see that all teams have the issue of mentor(s) versus students at times. We had a situation last night.

A/The mentor for the programmers came by last night. He's good at what he does but in all honesty he has not read the games rules but once and thought we had another week. He took a minute to watch what they were doing and in his own words as best I remember,

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Well! If that is a problem, I suggest you confront your mentors about it! Mentors are there to help you and I am sure that their HUUUUUGE input into the team.... even if it means changing the design is only provided to help you. The mentors see flaws in the design and just want you guys to do a really good job, so they over do it. Just tell the mentors that you do not particularly like everything being changed and I am sure they will work something out. If you simply tell them to change something back, they might not see a reason to do it if their design is the one that works best, but if you explain to them that you want to be a part of the team and by team you do not mean one person (mentor) group, they will probably understand that they were a bit too clueless about teamwork.

Our team is also pretty small and we don't have too many mentors coming at each meeting, but they help us. They don't build the robot by themselves, but when we are having trouble, they are always there to help out. I know from experience that mentors are there not to restrict you, but to elivate your skill. Besides, I am sure that some parts of your designs were implemented into the new versions your mentors created! Even though we don;t have such problem, if we would, we would just all group up and simply tell the mentors what is wrong. They just wanna help you the best they can, so don't complain, just talk to them, K?

;) ;) ;)

Re: Mentors VS Students
 

My science teacher/Mentor tells us that there are two types of FRC team robots. Student built robots and robots assembled by students. Our robot is hard to control, and it lifts the ball a few inches from the ground. In our eyes as rookies, thats more than success. In your situation, it is still a student built robot im sure, just with a communication gap between the adults and students. It sounds frustrating i agree, but it also sounds like the mentors really want you guys to succeed. I don't know what your teams idea of success is, but i wish you guys the best.

Re: Mentors VS Students
 

don't worry the same thing happen to us this year too
there was some conflict between the students and the mentors on the design and how the team was acting and performing, the teachers decided that the robot was the students not the mentors and let the students build the robot how we wanted
just put it behind you and shot for the ship date and if you get it you get it if you don't there is always next year

Re: Mentors VS Students
 

close to your same situation, we have 12 team members and 3 mentors. They are strickly hands off and give us suggestions on what to do and provide organization and make sure everyones on task. But everything concerning the robot is up to us. They can add advice- but basically we have the final say on everything.

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instead of quitting and giving up on the team, compermise with the mentors and become a good team leader and get the students that do nothing to do something(make them feel important).:D
its the worse thing is 2 give up:D
i should kno i have been through this type of thing

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You have to remember that FIRST isn't just about the students. It's about students and mentors working together and learning from each other to create something beautiful. So, with that in mind, I'd like to say this about 973.

Normally, 973 spends a couple of weeks hammering out a design and ends up way behind, using the practice day at regionals to finish up building. However, this year, for once, we were ahead. We got our general robot design withing the first few days, as opposed to the first few weeks. We managed to finish the bot before ship date and got several days of driving it around to practice. We also have a design that, I at least believe and the practice matches appear to agree with me, will do well, far apposed to how we normally do.

This is primarily thanks to one mentor. He's been a constant inspiration, keeping us on schedule, and generally helping in every department, from programming to machining. Without him we would be back in our old habits and the robot would be far from finished, let alone ready to be in its crate already. He doesn't just hand out an answer, he shows you why his is better using math and logic, something that our mentors don't normally do as most of the time we are so far behind schedule we have to rely on the "I'm a mentor so I know better" reason. So, not only has our robot improved with the addition of him, the teams overall knowledge has as well.

In other words, thanks Adam Heard. We wouldn't be where we are without you. You may be a bit of a jerk sometimes, but we owe ya.

Re: Mentors VS Students
 

If the mentors and students on a team are not seeing eye to eye or are having issues with who is supposed to do what, it seems that you may need to try some team building. Now that the build season is coming to a close, try taking a little time to get to know each other.

When a trust begins to develop, it is easier for mentors to turn tasks over to the students and let them incorporate their own ideas.

As a teacher, I recognize the difficulty of getting to know a new group of people over and over again. You worry about keeping things safe and making them work out for everyone. But if you establish a trust at the beginning of the season, you will have a more productive and comfortable build.

You need to accomplish this in the off season or pre-build.:)

Re: Mentors VS Students
 

This has been an interesting discussion to read through and I have to put in some input from my own experiences this season. My students have stuggled with one or two engineers this year who are new. Some of the kids and I had a heart to heart chat about why and it drifted to how my approach to working with them is different then the new engineer's approach.

At the most basic level, I treat them as adults. When I discuss an option or design I don't discount any points of view. I think whatever decision is made, there is a strong desire in anyone to feel heard and respected.

I will admit that at times, I do strongly suggest or force certain decisions. And with a VERY limited number of decisions insist on specific decisions. But I do a couple of things. I'm a mentor so you can claim my decision is based on experience and that may be true. But am I serving the students well if I make statements like "this is the decision..." or "this is the way it is going to be..." without putting my reasoning behind it? I don't think so. I think a mentors approach should generally be help and direct the student's decision so that they understand why I want something do a specific way. A Phrase like "Wouldn't it be safer to run the wires inside the arm rather because another robot could accidentally run into us and rip them out in their current location" does more to help a student understand then "we're running the wires down the inside." It also keeps the door open for additional suggestions. And as engineer who works for a company with a strong peer review process, I know that you always need to be open to suggestion. In addition, by asking questions and leading the students can be guided through the thought process that we've spent many years developing.

Our experience as mentors is only beneficial to the students if they are allowed to understand the rationale behind a decision.

The team is both mentors and students. We all put in lots of hours, blood, sweat, and tears into the hunk of metal and electronics that goes on the field. If a team communicates effectively and all opinions are respected, then everyone from the student to the mentor to the CEO of the major sponsors should be able to take pride in what ends up on the field.

I challenge teams to define whether the season was successful NOW. The performance of the robot, and the awards should be secondary to the experience that ends officially in the next few hours when FedEx loads your crate into it's truck. I for one, will say that Team 87 was successful.

Re: Mentors VS Students
 

Why does it have to be 'mentor vs student'?

The other day we had this situation arise. I had my opinion. Another mentor had his opinion. We called one of the student leaders over to 'settle it' (since we were all pushing student designed student built). We both stated our cases. Poor kid looked like a deer in the headlights and finally said "But no matter what I saw one of you is going to be mad at me!".

Funny thing was, both the other mentor and I answered at the same time "No we aren't". We didn't care- and we explained that if he chose idea 1, we'd go with that for now and build a backup of idea 2, and vice-versa.

The second problem ... we'll save that for another post.

Re: Mentors VS Students
 

First, I wish the title was "Mentors and Students" - that is a little more representative of the idea of a team.

But, to the topic. There is lots that could be written, but the first sugestion is to try and talk it out with the team. Talk to other students and see if they share your view, or if you are alone it in. Talk to the mentors, and explain how you feel things are going and ask if there are some better ways. Talk and work it out. In the end, a team needs both motivated students and motivated mentors to be successful.

Remember, their is no defined way to run a team. Some work very well with a high level of mentor activity, some with a high level of student activity, and others with a blend of the two. Chances are, the 'better' teams (define that however you want) have learned a "style" over a few years and have adapted to it - mentors and students.

As a mentor, one of the biggest challenges is to know when to step in. Yes, there is value in letting a student make a mistake and learning from it, but sometimes those mistakes have a significant impact on several students and mentors. Letting one student "learn from their mistake" by having a robot break down in match 1 of a weekend is an expensive price for a whole team to pay and not fair to anyone involved, especially if a "better way" would have prevented it. Even letting a whole group learn by buildig a robot that cannot function is a high price to pay for a "lesson".

A mentor is responsible and accountable to several people - students want to learn and be inspired, other mentors want to contribute, parents want their kids to gain some real knowledge from the program, school administration wants to be sure the students are safe and benefiting, sponsors want to be well represented by their teams, the mentor himself / herself needs to know they are adding value to the process - if not there are lots of other things to do with their time. If things go really wrong, it is more likely for the mentor to hear about it than the students. It is a delicate balancing act and is not easy for anyone.

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I agree, except I think FIRST sometimes gives too much benifit of the doubt to mentors, saying they're the bee's knees and the only other option is a bunch of idiot students running around.

Think of the build season as kiddie bowling. Mentors should be the bumpers and your mom who lines you up and gives you advice. They're all there to help you achieve success and offer encouragement, but they can incorrectly be ignored too. The fun thing is finding the balance between the "it's my robot set, get away kids" teams and the "what is a mentor" teams. That's where FIRST works wonders.

Re: Mentors VS Students
 

The very title of this post exposes the problem. The concept of us and them has been driving the human race crazy for ever. Some think First is all about science and tech. I submit that the greatest benifit First imparts on teams is the TEAM thing. Sounds like this team has failed in this most critical test of the build season. You have not become a TEAM. You are a bunch of bickering individuals. You loose.... For next year your TEAM needs to discuss the people issues and look for methods and activities to build and nurture the team's people skills. This can be much harder than building a robot. This year our TEAM was faced with an insurmountable pile of problems. No money, not enough meeting times, baned from using anything but hand tools, And on and on. But, we came together and work as a TEAM and over came every problem. I am very proud to be a part of this year's team. We won. Now the problem for me is to figure out why this years team came together and why the 2007 team did not to the same degree. The most challenging problems in life are the people problems.