**FIRST EMAIL**/Judges Information for the Team Yearbook
 

Greetings Teams:

The Judge's Information Section in TIMS is your opportunity to share valuable information about your team with FIRST. The data collected helps FIRST track important statistics such as how much it cost your team to participate in the competition, the population of the team (e.g., male/female students, number of teachers on the team) and class breakdown (freshmen, sophomore, etc..,) to name a few. This information is helpful in FIRST's efforts to procure funding.

This information (in particular the Team Essays section information) is also used by the Judges at the Regional and Championship events to learn about your team's history, goals, strengths and challenges it may have overcome. Judges take this information into consideration when making decisions about team awards, so we encourage you all to submit input! Please note we may use the robot photos you submit for the Awards Ceremonies.

To enter this data, please go to TIMS at https://my.usfirst.org/frc/tims/. Once logged in, go to the "Judge's Information" area, at the bottom of the Team Summary page, and complete the Additional Team Info, Team School Demographics, and Team Essays sections.

The Judges Information Deadline is: 11:59 pm EST February 19th. This area will be locked down at 12:00 am EST February 20th.

TIP! Your team may be working up to the last minute completing robot build, and therefore may not be able to take its robot photo until late February 19. If you complete all other parts of the Judges Information section, this will be the only item left to input!

Thank you all in advance.

Go Teams!

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Judges Information for the Team Yearbook
 

I seem to remember from last year there was a word limit on the essay responses, but when I asked our Mentor in charge of TIMS he said there was no mention of a limit.

Am I recalling incorrectly, is there still a limit this year or has it changed since last year?

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Judges Information for the Team Yearbook
 

From TIMS:

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Judges Information for the Team Yearbook
 

Wow. An 'essay' about "Most Competitive for Which Awards" strikes me as being tactless and tasteless.

Not a fan.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Judges Information for the Team Yearbook
 

I would think that you would use this space to highlight robot and team components that correlate well to award criteria. IF your team has put a lot of effort into an area related o one of the awards (not necessarily because there is an award) this may also be a place to highlight that (e.g. a team focuses on developing a consistent image, they may mention that this relates to the Imagery award)

As humble as we would like to be, sometimes bragging is necessary. This is no different than a college application or resume/job application where one must talk about their qualifications and strengths.

EDIT: I'm also not a huge fan of this category and I hope that judges do not dwell too long on what is contained here or ignore the potential for a team to compete for an award not highlighted here.

P.S. Thanks for the answer Mark!

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Judges Information for the Team Yearbook
 

Last season, I would never have imagined our team would win the Engineering Inspiration Award at the Silicon Valley Regional, and had I similarly been asked to identify which awards we were in contention for, I would have omitted it. This question, thus, gives me pause that if I had done so, judges would've spent less time speaking with our students and evaluating our program and its suitability for that award. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

The judges are meant to have a complete understanding of the awards they must present and really ought to be capable of identifying and investigating teams that meet the criteria for each award. I see that this might be a way to make their job easier -- but having judged FLL events -- I don't think their job should be easy. It should be the hardest job at the event and I'd hate to think that a great part of someone's robot or team goes overlooked because they didn't realize it was something special.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Judges Information for the Team Yearbook
 

[quote=Vikesrock;694693]

As humble as we would like to be, sometimes bragging is necessary. This is no different than a college application or resume/job application where one must talk about their qualifications and strengths.

QUOTE]

If you don't "blow your own horn" once in a while, who will?


Shameless promotion: Watch our (mine and John Burns' presentation of "Dean's Homework: Charting a Political Course" for the above quoted reference. :D

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Judges Information for the Team Yearbook
 

Well stated!

Ideally this category would allow the judges to make sure that they ask about a particular robot or team element that the team believes to be special without causing them to narrow their vision down to only elements highlighted here. Team members should already be aware of these elements and be able to talk about them without being asked directly so I think your concern regarding the use of the answers to this question is a very valid one.

I will definitely be talking to my team about what we want to put in this box, if we want to fill it at all. Unfortunately, with the existence of the box it makes me wonder what kind of attention we will get (or lack thereof) from judges by leaving it blank.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Judges Information for the Team Yearbook
 

I agree completely here. I thought that section is a little strange, as in if you don't put the awards down you think you should contend with, then will you even have a chance?

I guess you could just put "all of them" and be done with it.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Judges Information for the Team Yearbook
 

That's what I was thinking. Or "whatever you think we should be in the running for."

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Judges Information for the Team Yearbook
 

I'm with Maddy - I hesitated in answering that for our team. What do you really say without limiting the judges, even unintentionally?

What really struck a chord with me was the variety of things passed off as 'Judges' Information'. I really fail to see how many, if not most, of the questions included should matter to the judges when making their choice. A few of them even offended me, to be honest. Come on, take your pick: asking about the free/reduced lunch statistic of our schools and asking about the ethnicity and gender of our students REALLY turned my head. What could the judges possibly be using these for? What decision would be made by these criteria?

At least those are optional. Making 'team budget' a required field offended me quite a bit. Maybe I'm really off this time, but that should make no difference whatsoever for the judges. I've been on teams on both ends of the spectrum, and I don't want our finances - for whatever reason - to be a part of the process. I don't want a pity award given to my team because we struggled with our fundraising, and I don't want some judge discriminating against us because we're a little better off than another team up for the award. Like a lot of FIRST vets, I've been around the judges that are discriminatory or biased and don't want this information to factor into their decisions.

I know FIRST doesn't have it easy training the judges, and I know HQ does a pretty fantastic job considering the number of regionals and individuals involved. But it sure strikes me that someone is looking for demographic information about our team and billing it under the 'Judges' Information' headline, and that bothers me - especially if it means that the judges are seeing the results.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Judges Information for the Team Yearbook
 

Yeah, that question has been on the list for a few years now and has always struck me funny. I always list all of the awards, except for the ones which require submitting something we didn't submit. I know what their intent is, but I do tend to wonder how the judges take it...

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Judges Information for the Team Yearbook
 

"I've got a million dollars and built this crappy robot"
"We only had $500,000 and built this really nice winning robot"

I'm only assuming that's what the financial information is for.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Judges Information for the Team Yearbook
 

This explanation is on TIMS about why FIRST collects Team Demographics:

FIRST judges use demographics to evaluate teams during a competition and to support the maintenance of grants which allow FIRST to put on competitions around the world..

Note: All information is optional. However, you will stand a better chance at impressing the judges if you fill in all the information.

Note also, the terms used on this page are from the United States Census and required by some of our grantors.

I understand why the info is needed, but it seems likely to influence judges according to their personal biases. Asking teams to identify awards they feel they are most competitive for does not bother me. Selling oneself and one's achievements is often necessary, even mandatory, to garner attention for a unique approach or a job well done (As long as the information is factual).

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Judges Information for the Team Yearbook
 

Okay. I talked to my dad about this. He is a judge at the NJ regional and Championships, and has been a part of FIRST for many years. He's been judging since the beginning, so I for one trust his opinion.



That is my dad's explanation, in his words. It doesn't mean they decide the less fortunate team automatically gets it, but it makes their decision a lot harder. Also, as Pat A said, FIRST needs to put some of that information back into reports to their grantors. It also helps them to know where they need to focus some of their impact for the next year, and how they can get FIRST out to even more people. (They do their own homework, too.)

About the "Awards" section:

Also, the judges never EVER act on personal bias. They have to sign a form that says they won't. For example, I'm on a team, my dad's a judge, and 1923 has not won anything (yet?). If we do win, it's because we truly deserve it, not because my dad feels bad for me. Please do not get the wrong idea about judges- they are completely impartial.

I hope this helps calm things down. I didn't like those questions when I saw them either, but after hearing the reasons explained, they didn't really bother me anymore.
:)

EDIT::
I've been told "never say never", and that is correct. They are never supposed to, and while most do not, there are likely to be some that don't take their position as seriously as they should. I am only speaking on behalf of my father in this post.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Judges Information for the Team Yearbook
 

I concur.

I think that those fields are completely irrelevant to judging. My dad was a judge at the NJ regional for three years, and there were a few judges who wanted to hand out awards based on pity and background (and pretty uniforms, and shiny metal parts). They had to be gently reminded what the purpose of having awards are about. I asked my dad about this and he said that as of 2 years ago, he never saw TIMS information passed to judges, but that doesn't mean it does not happen now or at other regionals. He hasn't been a judge for a few years now, so things may have changed. The whole "All information is optional. However, you will stand a better chance at impressing the judges if you fill in all the information." doesn't sound good, as it is implied that the information will be passed on to judges.

This is what I told the students on my team: it's better to lose every single match, and earn every point, even in vain, than it is to win every award and match without earning it. I know it's a cliché, but awards should be earned, and not given. Even asking for that information goes beyond the scope of what judges need to know. Teams should be judged by their merits, not their demographics. I don't like playing the GP card, but a part of being a professional is being judged on the quality of your work and your ethical integrity. Race and free lunch vouchers shouldn't factor into it.

I think this information is entirely irrelevant to judging. Moreover, it puts the validity of the awards in question for ALL teams. How would we know if a team's ethnic makeup factored into an award. It puts the validity of the process in doubt.

Also, a team's budget is NOT a good tie-breaker for what team is more deserving of an award. Good design and engineering doesn't need to have a big price tag. However, doing something on a small budget should NOT be a part of the awards process, not because doing something on a budget is not difficult and deserving of recognition but because the term "budget" is so vague since high-cost fabrications, materials, and labor can be 'donated' by sponsors.

Two teams doing the same thing with different amounts of money cannot be properly measured due to the reasons stated above. As a result, the figure is meaningless, and serves no purpose but to have the potential to bias judges in favor the team that claims the smaller budget. The same holds true for socio-economic information. I would want a team to win an award because they earned it, not because they come from a neighborhood where people don't drive BMW's to the country club.

I'm going to talk with my Co-advisor as to how we want to fill this out - I want my team to be judged on their merits, not their make up. If FIRST needs to know that kind of information, they can find it through the US Census, outside of TIMS.

It's interesting. now that I am advisor of a team, I am the one going through a lot of the paperwork, and there are a few form fields here and there that give me pause. These are some of them.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Judges Information for the Team Yearbook
 

I don't really see what the problem is here. Fill out the forms or not. There really is nothing about it. Don't fill in the optional sections. If there is a problem, take it up with FIRST officials.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Judges Information for the Team Yearbook
 

In my office where I work at a university - we submit a budget proposal each year. Part of our presentation/proposal breaks down into percentages of the pie in several areas. Ethnicity and income are just 2 of the percentages (pieces of the pie). One could ask, why do this, aren't you providing services to all currently enrolled students? Theoretically, yes. The pie helps give us and those who approve the budget, a look at the type(s) of students we have helped over the past year. It also helps us look to see that our office is providing the outreach needed to make sure we are reaching all the students that may need our services. It's a look at the big picture.

When I first started helping our team, there were some lively discussions regarding these questions, not everyone in agreement or on the same page - students or mentors. My stance was to answer the questions to the best of our ability. It provides FIRST with a view of 418 and it also provides an opportunity for the team to look at itself and see how it is developing/progressing in different areas.

The essay regarding the awards - again, I view this as an opportunity for the judging community to take a look at us through our lens and it also gives our team an opportunity to assess ourselves, looking at the different aspects of the competition and seeing how we feel we measure up in each area. Where we feel we are strong and where we think we need some work.

This said, I understand how there can be different thoughts and opinions regarding this topic. Our team has had those differences and the discussions that have occurred as a result, have deepened our understanding of ourselves as a team and our roles in our community.

Just a couple of thoughts -
Jane

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Judges Information for the Team Yearbook
 

The demographics of the school often have little to do with the demographics of the team. A poorer school with a rich sponsor will have better resources than a team with fewer sponsor resources, even if the second school is in the richest community in the state.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Judges Information for the Team Yearbook
 

So then why would I want a judge making their own assumptions about our team makeup, budget, etc., and using those for or against us as a factor for giving out an award?

It was posted above and it's true to an extent - fill it out or don't. My problem is that I shouldn't be asked to give information to the judges if it's going to bias an award decision in which my team may be involved... and it seems like I'm not the only one.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Judges Information for the Team Yearbook
 

Whether we like it or not, for now, we have to play by the rules of the "game". Even though I strongly disagree with the reality that these have and will be used as tie-breakers in certain situations, for now we should use them to the best advantage of our teams. If we do not submit the information, the judges may or may not make assumptions, and I'd rather not take that chance. Nothing is perfect, even the judges. The essay in particular, and the statistics if utilized and "spun" effectively during your face-time with the judges, can be critical to enhancing your chances at awards. Even if your essay is something along the lines of "we hope that we are competitive for all awards because we felt that in order to get the most out of the FIRST experience we needed a well-rounded team and focused on every FIRST criteria and aspect". Everything can be put forth in a positive manner, you just have to find a way to express it.
In my experience, years where my team has had less than favorable statistics in one area, we talk about how we are striving to fix them (ie, our active recruitment of girls). We show positive trends.

That being said, none of these factors should ever weigh into an award process. The fact that they do is haunting.
Money IS an engineering design constraint, and it should be treated as one, a constraint, not as a handicap. As long as the team designed within their constraints, they should be applauded, not biased against because their constraint wasn't as tight as another team's.
I get where they're trying to go with the ethnicity and free/reduced lunch aspect (ie you're reaching out to those who might not be already exposed to such programs), but they shouldn't force the issue, or use it against the teams from less diverse areas (financially and racially).

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Judges Information for the Team Yearbook
 

I'm pretty sure that part is only for FIRST's statistics (like you said, finding out exactly who they're reaching out to.) Considering it asks the free/reduced lunch information about the entire school and not just the team, I doubt that's used for anything but putting information together on what communities FIRST is reaching.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Judges Information for the Team Yearbook
 

If the information was just provided to, and retained by, FIRST then it would not be a problem. But the demographic and statistical information is provided to all the judges in addition to FIRST. Some (albeit certainly not all) of the judges have indicated that they have considered that information when making award decisions in the past. And that is the concern that many of us are having with providing this information.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Judges Information for the Team Yearbook
 

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Judges Information for the Team Yearbook
 

I see the problem. The info is useful to funders and planners when its aggregated, but may not tell the whole story to judges looking at one team or another. Our students come from 16 different schools and homeschools, so there really isn't an answer to school questions for us. If your budget incs. hosting regional events, public demos, travel for all students and adult mentors, it doesn't mean its easy to build a rockin' robot...of course not. It's hard work, alot of fundraising, and alot of green paint... then you still sweat out every match and admire the teams that out-score and out-play you. (We really do, BTW.)

On another note, judging is hard. I appreciate that they show up to do it anyway. Maybe there's better, more meaningful info to help them--

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Judges Information for the Team Yearbook
 

More so than ever, the FIRST organization has been stressing the fact that we are out to change the culture, that this is not just about building robots. The problem is that the judges brought in to judge us on our progress in that goal of changing the culture are from the general public and therefore have very little understanding of what FIRST is all about (with a few exceptions, but they are few and very far between). The judges should not be using some of the statistics found in the yearbook page to make their decisions but many of them do because it is available to them. Many judging decisions at competitions are made based on the wrong criteria and it isn't really the judges' faults. How can we expect someone to come in for a day and a half and understand what FIRST really is as well as judge all the teams at their events based on those principles? How can these judges who don't understand even the most basic of principles of what FIRST is judge one team versus another? They do the best they can with what they know. Some look at the numbers they see on the yearbook page. Some choose the team with the coolest giveaway. Some pick based on a catchy name or logo.

What should be changed is how these judges are trained. If they have the proper resources available to them to make their difficult decisions based on the proper information, we'd all be better off.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Judges Information for the Team Yearbook
 

Lots of good dicussion here.

I would be concerned about judges using the demographic data in their criteria, because for the most part, the students cannot influence that statistic - most of them go to school where they live and their neighborhood is their neighborhood. The students can influence what they do with the resources they have access to (plenty or minimal).

I will add that it is incredibly difficult to be a judge, even with FIRST experience. There are many teams to talk to, lots of information to process, and lots of debate. The info you provide thru TIMS can help the judges get to know you a little in advance, and then they can focus on more detailed questions when they come to your pit. If things were perfect, they would have an hour with each team - but they don't - they haev 5 minutes at the most.

Also regarding judges, the judge advisor is charged with the task of making sure judges make the right decisions and use the right criteria. A good judge advisor keeps the judging team working effectively.

And fianlly, regarding "what awards you are most competitive for" - a judge once told me "If a team does not know what awards they are competitive for, how can they expect me to figure it out?" I think the point was, you should be aware of the awards and criteria and be able to speak to them, and know what ones might apply to your team. Know your strengths and talk about them.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Judges Information for the Team Yearbook
 

Has anyone stopped to think... "Its just plastic"?

Maybe its just me, and trust me, I am so proud of my team for the awards that they have won, but I would be proud of them no matter what. Our students are learning and growing, and we are inspiring them, and to me thats far more important than if some CEO denied us a piece of plastic because we didnt have enough reduced lunches or our budget was larger than another teams.

And maybe its just me, but LIFE ISNT FAIR. There is bias and political moves everywhere. I work in an engineering company, if you piss off the wrong person, you wont climb the ladder. Its a fact of life, and as much as I want to shield my kids from it, its true. But in the end, I would hope that being happy doing what we do, doing your job in the end is more important than a title on your office door or money falling out of your pockets. FIRST is much the same for me. I care less what a judge thinks about our team than what we think of ourselves.

Take a step back and realize that its really not that big of a deal. FIRST is just trying to give some background info to the judges. If a judge walked up to your pit and asked a student what award they thought their team most wanted to win, would you duct tape their mouth shut?? If a judge was local and knew a team was from a city school and pulled their robot together on a shoestring budget, but saw in the paper that Harris spends 8 bajillion dollars on their team, would you want them to consider both teams on exactly the same level? I certainly don't. Another example is that I try to get each of my students to rise to their own capabilities. If I know they are capable of more, I push them, even if they are already doing 3 times what the next student is. I'm going to challenge them on their own levels. And I want our teams to be the same. I dont want the judges to compare our team on an equal level to a high school non sponsored team that barely scraped together $6k. I want the judges to expect that team's best out of them, just like I want the judges to expect our best out of us. Its all different levels and Im not at all offended or ashamed to give any answers asked.

I do admit when I first looked at those questions I did wonder why it mattered, but then I realized, it doesn't matter to us. If everyone is honest, I trust that the judges will make the best decisions possible. Saying that these CEO's, VP's and Marketing Directors cant be trusted to make unbiased decisions just isnt fair. We dont know them, we have no idea what they are going to base their decisions on, and we can hope that they are going to go by the criteria of the award and make the best decisions they possibly can.

Again... maybe its just me... :)

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Judges Information for the Team Yearbook
 

Kim,

Having been at both ends of the team spectrum myself, I've seen bias go both ways. FIRST works very hard to provide versatile, informative materials to train a variety of volunteers. Unfortunately, FIRST cannot control one of the major factors of judging - the personality and biases of judges themselves. I, as well as many of the people who have responded in the thread outside of the MF, do realize this. What they are claiming, however, is that the information that is included in the demographics normally collected by FIRST should not go to the judges to further fuel this bias. I've seen a wide variety of judges and played that part, too; I know what a difficult decision it can be to decide between two teams. If there is an appropriate time to discuss ethnicity in the judges' room, I'd love to hear about it.

But I guess what I really feel that you've got all wrong is the notion that 'it's just a trophy'. If that is the philosophy that you truly believe, and if that selfless sentiment was shared by every team, why not get rid of the awards process (aside from the competition) altogether? Why bother having a Chairman's Award?

The truth is that the awards, much like the competition itself and especially the Chairman's, give each team something to strive towards. It is a physical embodiment of what they have worked hard to achieve. THIS is why we are competitive, this is what the kids can see that they've gotten from this program. It may take them years to realize the potential and self-confidence that they've gained, but having a trophy in front of them shows the importance of those characteristics. Simply having the ambiguous 'mission of FIRST' as your proponent for participation will only go so far. Nobody's there to half-inspire students. Nobody's there to half-engineer a robot.

To have a trophy and title to strive for is natural in FIRST - try to tell the kids who are so proud of their teams, who have their accomplishments in signatures here on ChiefDelphi and proudly wear their medals at competition, to throw them away.

Now if we're all competitive, and FIRST offers the opportunity for us to not only further their mission but also AWARDS us for doing the best job of it, why should we provide information that could potentially hurt us from receiving one of those awards? If it is truly just a trophy, ask your team to give theirs away and no longer celebrate what they've won. Even further, tell them never to strive to receive one again.

There's a reason why some of the most recognized, influential, and oft-emulated teams in FIRST (and by FIRST) have a full trophy rack in their school.

For everyone out there - don't be ashamed of your trophies. You worked hard for them. They are YOURS. They are your hard work, your lessons learned, your enthusiasm and spirit. They are coveted by many and received by few. Strive to earn them. Work hard to get them honestly. Put your accomplishments in the signatures of this forum and show everyone what you're made of. But even more, don't let the disappointment of not having one get to you, work that much harder to get it.

And if a judge comes into your pit and asks you what award you feel you should get, show them what sets you apart - but tell them the awards are for them to decide.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Judges Information for the Team Yearbook
 

I think this thread is moving away from the original question and into the
area of judge bashing. Judges are volunteers, using their vacation time and
paying their own way to events. They aren't perfect, but they are trying
to do the best job they can. And it is a difficult job. Statements such as
"Many judging decisions at competitions are made based on the wrong
criteria" aren't based on fact and certainly don't show the spirit of
GP.

If you feel that your team was unfairly denied an award, remember that you probably don't know enough about all the teams to make that judgment, congratulate the winners, move on to the next challenge, and try harder next time. But don't badmouth the judges.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Judges Information for the Team Yearbook
 

This is very true with our team. Wilson Magnet is like two different schools. With the IB program and AP and Honors course. One of the selling points they have to parents who want to enroll their kids is how they segregate the IB kids from the others. Even in homerooms. A good portion of the IB program is mostly white kids and most of the school is black.
The team is mostly made up of IB kids. One of our new students actually was going to pass up joining the team because she thought the team was solely for IB students when in reality it's for all students. Fortunately one of our mentors talked her into to joining and she has been very proud to be an X-Cat.
It's one of the challenges we face having to improve the visibility of the team in school (very hard to do when your facility is on the other side of town and there are just so many display spaces available to tell your story) and have them realize that the X-Cats are good for all of Wilson Magnet.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Judges Information for the Team Yearbook
 

I agree, lots of good discussion here.

I believe that many of the teams (FIRST can give you the actual figures) don't end up submitting information on this page, for one reason or another.

One way to treat the judging process is like a job interview. A lot of information needs to be exchanged in a short amount of time. If done correctly, a resume (judging sheet, give away in the pits) can help. You choose what to put on it. Having the team be able to speak up and answer the judges questions is an enormous help. One of the best things about FIRST is all the stories, but the stories need to be told in a common language. Time is short, so the team needs to prioritize the stories.

Over the years, I've heard lots of stories about the judging process. I had one team tell me that as far as they could figure, another team was given an award for something they also did. But the judges didn't know that (because it wasn't explained in the business plan they had). Talking to the judges is an enormous life skill that needs to be practiced and FIRST gives the students the opportunity to do this.

Judging is hard work. Although pretty basic, some new teams might find this helpful. http://www.firstnemo.org/PDF/NEMO-ju...e_regional.pdf

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Judges Information for the Team Yearbook
 

For those of you who were wondering whether your team will be considered for an award you don't mention in the summary for the judge's, the answer is an emphatic yes, based on team 558's personal experience. Last year we won the Daimler Chrysler Team Spirit Award at the CT Regional, one that was not mentioned in our summary of awards we thought we were strong competitors for.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Judges Information for the Team Yearbook
 

Warning - don't read if you are tired :)

Personally, since this was directed at me, I believe that awards are a nice way to attempt to recognize good work. Does one team being recognized mean that there aren't a dozen more that didn't deserve a commendation? Not in my mind. I think thats why a lot of teams give out team awards, and thats certainly why the team awards are in the same trophy case for us as the official FIRST awards.

This is where I believe we differ in opinion. I listen to all my kids talk when they speak about FIRST and tell their stories at our millions of demos... they don't talk about the awards they won, even though we bring the trophies. They talk about the impact the program has had on them, how they have changed and grown. Don't get me wrong, it feels great to win an award, but I see too many teams get too competitive and get upset with other teams that win awards (I can remember being guilty of this in high school) when they think they should have, that its just not worth getting worked up over.

I NEVER said not to be proud of their trophies, my point was actually more to the contrary... don't get upset if you didn't win them, and just because you didn't win them doesn't mean you aren't doing the right thing. And at the same time, I PERSONALLY don't want to encourage people to flaunt it and rub it in the faces of other teams that didn't win. There is a very fine line to walk there, Celebration is one thing, flaunting is another. Many FIRST teams don't rub it in the faces of others, but I do see many teams walk away grumbling that they should have won it, or this team only won it because they spent a thousand dollars making a really cool video, or because their sponsor does that. And I would like to see that bitterness go away. Its only a trophy. Celebrate things in your own way. My kids were sad in our rookie year when they realized there was a Woodie Flowers award, and that they hadn't known to submit for it, so they organized for our next regional to do an entire presentation of fancy trophies for all of our mentors. And to me, that trophy means so much more than them even trying to submit for the WFA that year because they initiated it. It wasn't a piece of plastic that some other group of people decided to give me, it was something that came from their hearts and that they did above and beyond the rest.

So all I am is saying is Celebrate your accomplishments in whatever way works. If its really what some judge from some company that doesnt know you matters, well then I guess trophies are the way to celebrate that, and what your team should strive for. If inspiring kids and getting them interested in science and technology is your goal, then look at what you think of yourselves and how many kids are going to college as your reward. To some teams, perhaps this "feel good" is not enough. Perhaps they need the official FIRST medals to really feel good about themselves, and thats ok, but I think thats more along the lines of Sports and NOT what Dean founded FIRST for. But that is just my opinion. I respect that to some teams that trophy may mean the world. And that maybe it is their only proof of what they have accomplished, but for my team its not. I can guarantee you they would be doing what they are doing even if FIRST didn't give out awards, and to me, thats a good feeling.

Thats the thing, though, maybe all of us aren't competitive... maybe some of us see the competition as a fun way to celebrate all of our accomplishments. Now I don't mean we wont try our hardest at competition, or strive to meet the objectives of the awards, but its not the winning of them that matters to every team. Some, yes, and thats ok. But for me, I'm not going to get bent out of shape because a judge seemingly gave an award to another team because they had a greater percentage of reduced lunch.

The reason is because they were able to best convey to the judges why they should get the award. Presentation & Selling your team and your accomplishments is probably 60% of getting the awards. If you look at our trophy case, we aren't short on them, but I'll tell you, our most successful year was our first year, and we barely even read the awards section of the manual that year. We knew what FIRST was and we believed in it, we did what we did because it was fun and we loved the ideals and what we were doing. That excitement is what won us the awards, not because we were trying for it, or even cared what some judge thought of us. To be honest, our team often gets more excited when some of the teams that we know win awards.

Please tell me exactly where in my post you think I told people to be ashamed of their trophies, because I never intended that and I apologize to anyone who interpreted it that way. The biggest thing I'm trying to say is exactly what you said here... don't let the disappointment get to you, and I'm not saying don't try harder, but don't base all of your pride in yourselves on winning or not winning a trophy. As Carol says, the judges are volunteers like the rest of the mentors. They are capable of making mistakes, but we have to trust them like we trust our mentors, and I personally would encourage teams to celebrate their accomplishments no matter how many trophies you do or don't come home with.

Thats the end to my tangent from the original discussion :D

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Judges Information for the Team Yearbook
 

I don't see a reason to continue this particular off-topic subject anywhere but PM's, since it appears to be a subject that only the two of us have been discussing and it's obvious that we disagree quite a bit.

In terms of the original topic of inappropriate information for the judges, I'm all ears as to what other teams are planning to do - should we just skip the information we feel might influence a judges' decision about our team? Should we just politely put in a note that we'd like to speak to the judges at the event about this particular information, if they're that interested?

I've got tentative answers written out, but haven't posted them to FIRSTawards quite yet... still hoping we'll hear either a clarification or some more information from FIRST before Thursday's deadline.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Judges Information for the Team Yearbook
 

Clarifying before I respond ... I think you mean tuesday's deadline and TIMS (not FIRSTawards) right?

In any event .... I answered them all in as few truthful words as possible - more like bullet point lists. In the areas I felt uncomfortable about, I spoke in mre general terms. 255 characters really isn't an "essay" at all anyway ...

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Judges Information for the Team Yearbook
 

I noticed a conflict in the Judge's Page submission deadline:

On the Team Summary Page in TIMS, the Judge's Information Section banner shows the submission deadline as Feb. 19, 2008 05:00 pm EST.

The e-mail blast (subject of this thread), indicates the deadline is Feb. 19, 2008 11:59 pm EST.

I spoke with FIRST this morning and they confirmed the 11:59 pm EST deadline is correct.

Hopefully, not too many teams get confused by this minor glitch...:confused:

**FIRST EMAIL**/Reminder - Robot Ship And Judges Information Deadlines Reminders
 

This was blasted out on Monday (yesterday) afternoon...

----------

Greetings Teams:

Please remember all robots must ship by tomorrow, February 19th, 2008.

Also, information for the Team Yearbooks via the Judges Information section in TIMS is due tomorrow, by 11:59 p.m. EST. Details regarding the Judges Information can be found at:
http://www.usfirst.org/community/frc...t.aspx?id=7958

Go Teams!

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Judges Information for the Team Yearbook
 

We've ended up filling out all of the team essays except for that which asks which award we're best suited for as well as the demographic information.

I don't want to win anything based upon our demographic information, but we also feel that it's important that FIRST understand our cost to participate is much higher due to the economic circumstances in the communities we serve. That is reflected in our demographic and budget information.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Judges Information for the Team Yearbook
 

As a follow up to all of this, I found out from our team's coach that teachers from our school district are asked to not distribute this information (free lunch statistics, ethnicity and gender specifications, etc.) unless it is absolutely necessary - I doubt this usage falls under this category. Her and I spoke at length and decided to leave the entire demographics page blank.

We did find out that simply putting an X in the Team Budget field will make it show as $0 but show that you have completed the appropriate field (the tab will be checked). We filled out all the rest of the information and it worked out fine.

As for the award essays, we spoke about these as well and decided that we'd simply put a nice message in some of the ones that we questioned: "Our team members would be more than happy to speak with the judges at competition regarding this question. Please feel free to contact any student on our team for more information." This allows us to better assist the judges directly without amplifying any bias they may already have prior to or during competition. We thought that was tactful and not inappropriate for the situation.

Apparently our team has been asked in the past to print out this information from TIMS and submit it to the Regional Director at a competition to "better assist the judges". I was surprised to hear this, since I didn't know that any FIRST field staff was to coach or 'assist' the competition judges... and why does the RD need to give this to the judges at their competition if it's not supplied directly from FIRST? I guess at least putting in polite references to please contact our team will get the judges to talk directly to our kids for correct information, and not rely on anyone else for it.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Judges Information for the Team Yearbook
 

This whole thread has become a little troubling to me. While I certainly don't want our team to win any award based solely on our demographics or budget, I do think it's important for the judge's to know this information so they can see how we use our resources and how important the team is to our inner-city school. Let's face it, our little, low budget team will never be able to compete with the titans of FIRST for certain awards. But I know for a fact that one of the reasons we were given the Daimler Chrysler Team Spirit Award last year was to recognize the extraordinary dedication of our student team members, most of whom walk, ride bicycles or take public transportation to attend team meetings. And I don't see any problem with the FIRST judges recognizing that our students have to do more than many others just to participate.

That being said, our team filled out TIMS fully. And put what awards we felt we were qualified for this year. There's nothing wrong with a little honest salesmanship. And in the end, the judges will decide whether a given team is deserving of an award or not, no matter what their TIMS page says.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Judges Information for the Team Yearbook
 

Oooooookay...

First, to the hue and cry about FIRST asking for demographic information and providing it to judges. As noted in passing in a few replies, many many many of these judges are from current or future regional and team sponsors. It's entirely possible that they're interested in the demographics of what they're funding. I realize that this info is theoretically available from FIRST... If any of you ever bothered filling it out. I'm quite confident that FIRST HQ was asking teams for this information many many years ago. I'm also pretty sure teams weren't bothering to fill it out because it didn't seem to matter. Now they're trying to entice you into it by saying it's for the judges, and you're still not filling it out.

Second, yes judges are going to look at this information and possibly use it to inform their decisions. A typical award panel is a composed of a handful of judges that have to make a ridiculously difficult decision between 30-60 teams in one maybe two days. And this isn't a science fair. You don't have nice neat objective categories to grade teams on to make your decision. My point being, the judges are desperate for any and all information they can get in the shortest time possible. If you don't provide that demographic info, they'll quite possibly rehash it with you and waste time doing so. If you don't give them those essay response as a launching point for their questions, they'll waste time asking you just what they heck you've been doing the last few months. And etc. Judging time is extremely limited even with the typical strategy of surveying the field, shortlisting the strongest candidates, and interviewing those at length. Basically, giving the judges more info is a good thing. And honestly, some of those data do make a difference. As pointed out above, a team with less support obviously has to work harder than a team with more support to achieve the same level of technical brilliance. I'm not saying that the judges sort teams by increasing budgets and then find the poorest team with a passable robot. But it is going to make some small difference in the awards process. You know, much like everything you tell the judges makes a difference in the awards process. If we're honestly railing against circumstances and situations affecting the judges, then we really should just start handing out the "Most lego league teams started" award followed by the "Most extensive use of CNC'd parts on a robot" award.

Which brings me to my main point. I have to say this is one of the most disillusioning and disheartening threads I've come across on CD in quite a while. Considering that some people in this thread used to make me feel inadequate and selfish for wanting to win a competition or two, I'm just a bit appalled. (Though a few are still managing to prod my inferiority complex.) In particular, the statement "Nothing is perfect, even the judges." really saddened me. Whether intended or not, I read this as "The judges have given awards to the wrong teams." Which is either ludicrous or reprehensible. Either you assume the judges are acting in good faith and selecting a team that most deserves the in their opinion, or you assume that they're not acting in good faith.... The former leaves no option for them to be wrong. Since when has anyone had a wrong opinion? The latter.... well I really don't want to contemplate the day when that's bandied about here on CD.

Finally, I wholeheartedly agree with Kim. Winning awards is fun, but I'd much rather leave my students with something a little more useful than a piece of plastic. A genuine interest in engineering, science, writing, marketing, journalism, and the confidence to pursue that interest..... That's a heck of a lot more useful than some $6000+ paperweight. Real professionals love their jobs because they love what they do. Anyone walking into an interview with a FIRST trophy and asking if they could get a few more of these if they did a good job.... Well they're not going to get far. I mean, the triangular prism is usually pretty sharp, but that only really works till security shows up.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Judges Information for the Team Yearbook
 

I really don't understand how you can come to this conclusion. I think it's a 100% certainty that the judges have given awards to the wrong team. No question in my mind whatsoever that it's happened before, and will happen again. I think it'd be naive to pretend otherwise, that some judges don't have preconceived biases, known or not.

When I was a student in high school I was with a group of people from another team that was flat out told by a judge that this particular group of judges doesn't like to give awards to teams who always win them, to "give the little guy a chance".

I don't see that it's any different than insinuating the referees aren't perfect, which we all know is 100% true. Why is it suddenly taboo to say the judges aren't perfect?

Most of these people probably don't do this every year. They don't know much about FIRST. They come in on Thursday, learn how to do their job as best as they can, spend two days trying to subjectively choose between 30-60 different robots/designs/teams/etc that they probably don't *really* fully understand, no matter how good the students are at explaining them. Obviously they'll get it wrong from time to time.

You think teams don't embellish? Of course they do. The judges don't know any better. If the robot is marginally effective on the field, and a team gives a good story about how sensors control their robot to do so and so really innovative functions, and their drive has xyz innovative qualities, how will they know the difference? They don't see this stuff everyday like we do. It may not be obvious who's full of BS and has a robot that really doesn't do what it says it does, or if they've really done the outreach things they say they have, etc.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Judges Information for the Team Yearbook
 

Who's to say that a "wrong" team got an award? I mean, these awards are subjective, and it's the judge's call. There most certainly is more than one team qualified to receive each award each year, and, ultimately, it's the judge's call which way to go. I'm not sure how we can say that they made the wrong call by choosing between worthy teams.

Also, with respect to not being allowed to release demographic info., I got our info. by searching the internet. There are many sites (eg. greatschools) where this information is available for virtually every public school across the US.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Judges Information for the Team Yearbook
 

Team 116 asked Q&A the demographics question:
http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=8776

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Judges Information for the Team Yearbook
 

Good for FIRST. Now if they could have only noted that on the submission, we would have avoided all this.