It’s here, and it’s better than ever. Team 56 2008 best website since 1997 – Check it
 

Hey Guys – Team 56 has successfully launched the 2008 website. Please check it out @ www.team56.com

Do you guys think it got what I takes to take on the championship award title =) ? Would you vote for it? Yes or No?

Any suggestions or opinions will be helpful.

Robbe Xtreme

Re: It’s here, and it’s better than ever. Team 56 2008 best website since 1997 – Chec
 

Wow! :yikes: That is one intense layout! I really like what you did, it's very different (in a good, creative way!) I like the way you handled the gallery, I also do enjoy the pirate theme. :rolleyes:

If I had one criticism (in the name of constructive criticisms) I would suggest making the sub-pages list a bit less daunting. I personally think that the white arrows add a bit of unnecessary clutter to the pane... Do take that with a grain of salt as I really do like/admire your site! (I can't stand battling css for more than a day or two!)

Best of luck in the competition!

Re: It’s here, and it’s better than ever. Team 56 2008 best website since 1997 – Chec
 

You put inspiration twice in you intro

Re: It’s here, and it’s better than ever. Team 56 2008 best website since 1997 – Chec
 

maybe it was just my internet but i dont think so, it takes about 10 seconds or so before the page after intro loads, W3C says most people wont wait longer than 7

but a really really good website nonetheless

Re: It’s here, and it’s better than ever. Team 56 2008 best website since 1997 – Chec
 

Thank you =) Well, for the arrows, I had to add it so visitors can know that this is expandable tab, if u know what i mean :yikes:

Re: It’s here, and it’s better than ever. Team 56 2008 best website since 1997 – Chec
 

Yea, but we are fixing that .. thank you

Re: It’s here, and it’s better than ever. Team 56 2008 best website since 1997 – Chec
 

If you have at least 512kbs internet, it shouldn't take you more than 5 sec I believe.. and thats the problem we faced =( great graphics with slower rate or less graphics for faster rate.. but we tried to adjust to both

But.. 10 seconds are worth it to wait so you can look at this awesome graphic layout :D

Re: It’s here, and it’s better than ever. Team 56 2008 best website since 1997 – Chec
 

Graphics, pow pow pow. Here's a good place to put in a discussion about the demerits of copious eyecandy.

A cohesive website is all about presenting information. They call web people "information architects" these days, and there's a reason for that.

I doubt not your webteam's time spent photoshopping the background images for this website. However, it's very bulky and flashy.

The flash intro is a good example of this bulk. It conveys little information (the music and moving pictures of the robot, as well as vague, amorphous words like "inspiration"), at a very high bandwidth cost.

It's probably too late now, but for next year, I would suggest pinning down all of your key information, and building a website around that. A user isn't interested in seeing pictures of your members do a flash/zoom effect. They want to read more about it. So, instead of showcasing the flash/zoom effect, perhaps find a way to showcase the actual information. This applies to the flash slideshow frontpage item and "past robot" image too. The font-size-changer feels like a gimmick. How often does the average web user need to change the font-size of a website?

The frills on the sidebar (and everywhere else) are very distracting, especially with the red-on-black color scheme. It takes your eyes away from the main navbar.

I would suggest studying these examples:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/splat/sets/981332/
http://www.webdesignfromscratch.com/current-style.cfm

Hey, after reading this, you'll probably get really bitter towards me. I completely understand. I went through this realization last year. When you get really bitter, you have to remember that it's the journey of finishing the website that really counts in the end. After all, it all gets scrapped after one year.

Hopefully, this might nudge you further on that (very time consuming) journey. :)

Re: It’s here, and it’s better than ever. Team 56 2008 best website since 1997 – Chec
 

Honestly i have to say that is a brilliant website kudos to you guys.

kudos its awesome good work

Re: It’s here, and it’s better than ever. Team 56 2008 best website since 1997 – Chec
 

I have to agree here. We considered a fancy graphic design at first, but decided it was a bit too much effort, and none of us enjoyed sites with flash as a main part of them.
If you think about it, a lot of great sites out there are incredibly minimalistic, Google, Digg and Slashdot; they convey a lot of information, and load quickly and don't make your eyes bleed (I'm looking at you, animated GIFS).
I love the theme of your website, and there's a lot in there. It looks very cool. Perhaps you could tone it down a slight bit next year, and have an even more appealing one!

Re: It’s here, and it’s better than ever. Team 56 2008 best website since 1997 – Chec
 

Thank you for putting the effort in writing your suggestions and opinions, but there is no need to hate. You probably didn’t’ even explore the whole website. I am sure we spent x3 times as your team did working on your webpage. http://www.harrisonboilerrobotics.org/
Also, about the bulky intro you are talking about. It is something special that we decided to have that will represent us as well as the FIRST community. If you don’t really get the meaning of the intro I will explain it. Because we are pirates, we decided to have a treasure map that our robot will go around it looking for the treasure. Every time we landed on an island, a word description appears which descripes what we have gained. Than when we reached to the treasure, the real treasure is FIRST. Hmm... Sounds very creative to me, doesn’t it? I don’t see any other website have that idea.
Also about what you said on our lack of information.. WHAT??? We have a team bio for all our members that is page long. You should reconsider that and look here http://team56.com/2008/team56/teammembers/students.php
And about our past robot, there is a HISTORY PAGE THAT YOU ALSO DIDN’T SEE. http://team56.com/2008/history/history.php
And what is wrong with the font size option – if you don’t like it DON’T use it. I am sure lots of other people will have fun with it, but I don’t’ know about you.

WHAT MAKES OUR WEBSITE SPECIAL FROM ANY OTHER IS OUR ORIGINAL DESIGN, NOT GOING TO OTHER WEBSITES AS YOU MENTIOND AND COPY THEIR DESIGN.
And don’t worry, for the spirit of gracious professionalisms I don’t feel bitter towards you. The website is always done as well. We have all the essential information that we need.
P.S – I don’t understand why you would talk about our lack of information where you guys don’t have as much information as us ^o)

Re: It’s here, and it’s better than ever. Team 56 2008 best website since 1997 – Chec
 

By the way, what I posted is called constructive criticism. People usually use it when they want to improve. It's a sad thing that most of the posts on this forum lack it.

I don't want to be a "hater", so I guess I'll be like everyone else:
Great website. Good job. Yay. Congrats, etc.

P.S: It's rude to use ALL CAPS.

Re: It’s here, and it’s better than ever. Team 56 2008 best website since 1997 – Chec
 

great site love the pictures and layout

Re: It’s here, and it’s better than ever. Team 56 2008 best website since 1997 – Chec
 

A few points to consider:
-Is it considered fair use to post Darude's "Sandstorm"?
-I find it kinda hard to focus on the text because the eye candy is quite distracting.
-My 1 year old laptop is incapable of screen resolutions higher than 1024x768, so...scrollbars deluxe. Most corporate machines are set to 1024x768 also, so you are making yourself look bad to any potential sponsor viewing your site.
-Disable Javascript, Flash, and any other active content. Now try your website. It is good that you put a "Skip Intro" link on the intro page, but it is bad that on my machine I had to scroll to find it...

It just really feels like one of those overdone MySpace pages with everything on the page flashing and fading and moving...

I can see that a lot of time went into this, and I do like how professionally-done it looks. It's not my style, but I could roll with it if it fit in my browser.

Ultimately, the CSS/design style of your site is only 0.0001% of what makes your site good. A good design won't be obtrusive, but rather make the content-which is of course the most important part-flow nicely.

JBot

Re: It’s here, and it’s better than ever. Team 56 2008 best website since 1997 – Chec
 

Yeah I understand what you saying. The resolution was one of the hardest thing to decide, but the only reason we made it 1200 px wide was because 1000 px was just way too small. After looking through polls and votes, we believed that 1200px was the best resolution to use.

Re: It’s here, and it’s better than ever. Team 56 2008 best website since 1997 – Chec
 

Its a peice of art, yet, but im not so sure about the website part.
I like the shape of the site, but i think you sacrificed graphics for a presentable appearance. For example, in your content area, your main body paragraph are itty bitty in width, and stretch the page downwards a LOT. in fact, almost all content areas on your site are way too thin... they need to be taken off their diet.


Next thing i dont like is how i have to scroll down to actually see any content. I do get a nice pirate ship though... it must have taken a LONG time to design that header.

Next is the color scheme... its consistent, i will give you that. The problem is it is very saturated; you never actually deviate from that powerful shade of red. It gives me a headache if i try to read the text on the page for too long.

Check the usage policy for that first logo... i beleive they specify that it HAS to have the FIRST text underneath it.

As far as content itself goes, i think you are all set. Looking at the grading sheet i beleive you will at the very least get an excellence award.

Re: It’s here, and it’s better than ever. Team 56 2008 best website since 1997 – Chec
 

Thank you, we will definitely take that into consideration for next year of course.

We saturated the red because it will be too bright. =)

About the FIRST logo, we have it in every page in the FIRST section at the bottom of the page with the FIRST word on it. I believe that should do it.

Re: It’s here, and it’s better than ever. Team 56 2008 best website since 1997 – Chec
 

Not that I want to do do direct comparisons here or simply say that one site is better than the other, but since you did it, allow me to.

The website http://www.harrisonboilerrobotics.org/ is professionally done. The introductory information (team name, what FIRST is, etc) is presented very clearly. As the user to the site, I immediately know what this site is about. I like that.

The links to other sections of information are very easy to find. They are in different colors, they are large, they stand out on the page.

This site has a very clean design. Its a site that I wouldnt mind browsing through because its well designed, easy to read, and informative. It is very clearly a better site.

I have two issues with your response to his original comment.

1. The way you addressed his comments....

You're right, your team probably did put in 3 times the effort, but in the real world, that doesnt mean anything. Throwing an implied insult at his site doesnt do anything constructive.
If you were building a site for a business, you wouldnt get a chance to address the customers that their opinions about your website are wrong because you can provide them with links that they didn't explore. The end of that story is the customer didn't like your website, so they moved on and your company is not going to get their business.
The truth is that FIRST isnt a business and the site probably wont make much of an effect on how your robot performs, the funding you receive, etc but if we are going to treat this like a real world competition, then we need to a have a more realistic paradigm.


2. His comments are spot on and you seem to dismiss them.

Ignoring comments because they are not what you want to hear isnt anyway to improve upon a product. I happen to agree with everything he said about your site. The introduction wasn't very informative and a little bit too long. Its very hard to navigate on your main page. The links at the top were very hard to see because they have very little contrast with the background, in fact it isnt very clear if they are links or just more text on the page. Overall, the page feels very cluttered and it becomes a chore for me to read rather than a pleasure. And this may be more of a personal preference, but I would rather see very clear pictures of your team in action than the blurry, unclear images on your main page.

Perhaps your site has more information, but its hard to find and thus the user wont get to it.




Simplicity of design is a concept that applies to all aspects of life. Whether it is your robot, your plans for the future, or a website, there is a beauty in simplicity. When there is too much going on, it leads to stress and disharmony. Please take this into consideration for your future sites.


I would also like to agree with the fact that there is not enough constructive criticism on the site. Getting one million "great jobs" or "nice effort" doesn't help as much as one person providing some thought and real incite in their feedback.

Re: It’s here, and it’s better than ever. Team 56 2008 best website since 1997 – Chec
 

I agree completely circular.

First. Don't use flash introductions on websites. Flash is neat, and can do some pretty eye-catching things. However, used as you used it here is an incorrect application.

Second. A majority of the world uses 1024x768 resolution. At that resolution, your website is very difficult to view. The graphics, while extremely well done, are over-the-top and tend to make it difficult to sort out the information from the pictures.

Third. Less that half the world runs broadband.

I don't want to make you think you wasted your time. It's very impressive, and with some more work I think you could easily win a major award. But you need to size it correctly, make it easier to navigate with more visible buttons, and compress the content.

Re: It’s here, and it’s better than ever. Team 56 2008 best website since 1997 – Chec
 

If you guys feel about the site that way, I have no problems :D

Also, sorry about the negative comments I said. I didn't mean to put it that way:ahh:

Cheers

Re: It’s here, and it’s better than ever. Team 56 2008 best website since 1997 – Chec
 

Echoing much of what has been said. It seems very over-the-top. The homepage is the worst, as there are flashing/fading/moving .gifs seemingly everywhere, and it really distracts from the information. Even running 1440x900 on my laptop, it seems very cluttered. The header links don't stand out and it took me a few seconds to realize that they were there.
Even though you do have the FIRST logo with the appropriate text underneath sometimes, you are supposed to have it underneath all the time.
http://www.usfirst.org/community/res...er.aspx?id=650
Notice the section in the logo rules about the protected area, and the section about placing them on visually active background patterns (ie the pirate ship). There are at least thirteen different places you violate the FIRST Logo Usage policy.
Towards the same end of things, are you sure it qualifies as Fair Use to use "Sandstorm" (or the songs in the photo albums), or the adapted WoW map?
There are a few spelling/grammatical errors found around the site (Featured on Discovery Channel, “FIRST ROBOTIS”/alumnus is singular, alumni is plural, even if they are all male), but those aren't a huge issue, but it would seem much more professional if they were touched up.
For the sections of the website where the menus don't have any drop-down features, I think the arrows should be removed. Additionally, at least I'm used to menus being on the left side of the screen, so it may be beneficial to switch the locations of the menus and the calendar.

That being said, the graphic work is outstanding, some of the best I've seen. The website does contain a large amount of information, and you should at least win an excellence award. While I don't need it, I do like the text resize option as well.

Re: It’s here, and it’s better than ever. Team 56 2008 best website since 1997 – Chec
 

I really love the lay out of the site. Pretty easy to navigate. Cool intro. A+ imo. And i really loved the WoW map in there ;)

Re: It’s here, and it’s better than ever. Team 56 2008 best website since 1997 – Chec
 

hehe. Thanks -- one of our web design members loves WOW, so he wanted us to use it :D and it also does the job

Re: It’s here, and it’s better than ever. Team 56 2008 best website since 1997 – Chec
 

Unfortunately, it is against copyright and fair use to take the map and the songs and reuse them. You should remove those from the site. It is not just against the FIRST policies - it's illegal.

Re: It’s here, and it’s better than ever. Team 56 2008 best website since 1997 – Chec
 

I added the credits for them - Song Sandstorm by Finnish DJ Darude(http://www.thedjlist.com/djs/DARUDE/) -- World of Warcraft Map by Blizzard(http://wow.gamepressure.com/map.asp?ID=83)

Re: It’s here, and it’s better than ever. Team 56 2008 best website since 1997 – Chec
 

I am afraid that simply adding the credits for them is not sufficient. You must obtain explicit permission from the owner of the work to use them. Usually that involves some sort of licensing fee.

Re: It’s here, and it’s better than ever. Team 56 2008 best website since 1997 – Chec
 

LOL.. So you telling me all these youtube videos and even the FIRST animations (the ones who had songs and the credits in the end of the artists) are illegal and we all will go to jail for it :ahh:




This question is side tracked: Are you trying to say that you NEVER ever downloaded any songs, pictures, or videos from the internet?

Re: It’s here, and it’s better than ever. Team 56 2008 best website since 1997 – Chec
 

I'm sorry that you're going to dismiss the "suggestions or opinions" you asked for like that.

By the way, they won't let you submit an animation unless you have written consent from the copyright holder.

Your question is a logical fallacy.

Re: It’s here, and it’s better than ever. Team 56 2008 best website since 1997 – Chec
 

hmm.. do you have the FIRST link so i can look this up?

Thanks =)

Re: It’s here, and it’s better than ever. Team 56 2008 best website since 1997 – Chec
 

Here ya go. (And yes we got permission to use our music on our animation.)

http://firstbasefrc.autodesk.com/?nd..._visualization

Re: It’s here, and it’s better than ever. Team 56 2008 best website since 1997 – Chec
 

No, you probably wont go to jail, but you could be subjected to a pretty hefty lawsuit. Dont put your team through it- remove the copyrighted material. Just to let you know, not following copyright law can get you removed from judgment for the website award.

Also, that is a moot argument. Yes, im sure some people do download things from the internet, and some of that may be less-than-legal. This doesnt make it right though- our law system defines illegal as illegal and not what the population thinks (until its appealed but dont get into that). Another problem is that people who download this material have it for themselves- you are broadcasting it for the world to see and in a sense are making the creators of the material lose money. You could be sued for a lot of money by doing that.

could be


alright guys, i dont think it is in the spirit of gracious professionalism to do any more of this against him... he put a lot of work into the site, and is proud of it. he has a few flaws to fix, but its nothing to get into a flame war over.

Re: It’s here, and it’s better than ever. Team 56 2008 best website since 1997 – Chec
 

You know what, if I know how to lock this topic I would have done already because it’s sad to see how ungracious and unprofessional this topic shifted to.

I started out by saying, hey guys – well you see we worked so hard on this website and I want you guys to check it out. And all of the sudden I get these posts that are saying… omg I can’t see anything ,the graphics are killing my eyes. Where is the content? Oh no, you can’t use music, u going to get sued. There is no need for the intro, it’s bulky. And Ryo going all technical teaching us how to make a website.

I think we should stop now before it gets any worse which is not the spirit of FIRST.

If you guys wanted to help us out, you should have posted how we could improve it instead of criticizing it.

Also, I am not including all the posts because I think you guys can tell the difference.

I am ending the topic because I don't want it to be a flaming topic. -_-

Re: It’s here, and it’s better than ever. Team 56 2008 best website since 1997 – Chec
 

We gave you exactly what you asked for. Our comments were in no way in direct attacks of you, rather issues we saw that may be improved upon for this and future iterations of your website. We offered constructive criticism, and raised some potentially significant issues dealing with the legality of some of the content of your site. Many of us even said that we liked the overall theme and/or artwork of your site despite some of the issues. I'm sorry you took such offense to our comments. Constructive criticism does not violate the spirit of gracious professionalism, especially given that some of our suggestions can help you avoid legal and rules troubles.

Re: It’s here, and it’s better than ever. Team 56 2008 best website since 1997 – Chec
 

Nono, it's all right, stay for a bit. I'm going to try to make this post not be offensive, but I mgiht come off as such. So please, I don't mean harm.

As a web designer it's important to be able to take every form of criticism, both constructive, unconstructive, and turn it around to be a suggestion. And you gotta do this all without being offended or letting pride get in the way. That's really what all criticism is underneath, an angry or inefficient way to ask someone to change something. It doesn't make their underlying request invalid, it just means it's not presented well.

For example, if someone says they don't understand the point of something, you can effectively turn it around to say: how can I clarify the purpose? Notable example is the complaint about the bulky intro and it's text, which resulted in you explaining to Ryo the reason behind putting it. Rather than explain it to him, why not think of a way to make your website explain it for you? Obviously, somewhere along the line, Ryo didn't find that part of your website had a purpose, and decided to tell you (this is reasonable behaviour). If you did mean the intro to convey a purpose, then his crticism suggests you should think of ways to make your purpose clearer. Perhaps putting the treasure chest ON the map, as the ship moves towards it. It's not his job to think of ways to improve it (that's just a bonus), it's yours.

The claims of copyright infringement should also be taken in the same way. Perhaps read up a bit more on copyright to see if what people are saying about your site is right. The people who state that 'Sandstorm' is breaking copyright are simply trying to help make sure that your website doesn't get disqualified. There, sounds a bit less evil doesn't it?

Anyway, I hope I gave some insight. If I offended you anyway... well, I tried not to didn't I. We're all here to help you! Wish you best of luck in the competition.