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-   -   Spike relay question (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64371)

Zack Briggs 17-02-2008 13:13
Spike relay question
 
So my team has been hard at work on making the electronics board for this years robot, and in an effort to make the robot as light as possible, we are using the older, lighter models of the spike relays. After reading through the rules, I could not find anywhere that it specifically prohibited an older spike relay from use, but I just wanted to make sure it was legal to use a spike like this one:

Thanks for the help!

EricH 17-02-2008 13:26
Re: Spike relay question
 
You're right, it doesn't say that old models can't be used. However, based on other rules that prohibit using old stuff (e.g. Victor 883s), I'd almost say that they can't be, but if they meant that, they'd have said it...

Sounds like a Q&A question to me.

lasereyes 17-02-2008 13:55
Re: Spike relay question
 
A normal spike only weighs 0.12 lbs. You can't expect to loose that much weight. Look somewhere else.

Alex_Miller 17-02-2008 14:02
Re: Spike relay question
 
Wouldn't that be considered a custom part? I know that we couldn't use sprockets for wheels on our robot that came with the KOP last year.

EricH 17-02-2008 14:04
Re: Spike relay question
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterAlex (Post 700929)
Wouldn't that be considered a custom part? I know that we couldn't use sprockets for wheels on our robot that came with the KOP last year.
I don't think so--it's closer to the BB trannies in the KOP last year.

Al Skierkiewicz 18-02-2008 10:42
Re: Spike relay question
 
There is no electrical difference in the two models of Spike. The upper case on new Spikes covers much of what is shown in the photo above. There is no robot rule that prevents the use of this device. There is a rule that prevents the use of the old 883 Victors and old RC/OI combinations.

Jon Stratis 18-02-2008 10:50
Re: Spike relay question
 
The only rule i'd be worried about is availability... yes, you have them in the old KoP, but can you find that model available for sale anywhere? If not, then it wouldn't be allowed.

EricH 18-02-2008 11:40
Re: Spike relay question
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle33199 (Post 701522)
The only rule i'd be worried about is availability... yes, you have them in the old KoP, but can you find that model available for sale anywhere? If not, then it wouldn't be allowed.
Again, the BB trannies from last year. That exact model isn't available anymore, but there is an upgraded model available. Last year's are allowed. I think you can reasonably extrapolate this to the old Spikes.

GaryVoshol 18-02-2008 14:44
Re: Spike relay question
 
What matters in the rule is not whether parts from old kits are available now. What matters is if they were available on the market then. You can reuse unaltered off-the-shelf parts from old robots, if they were COTS items. Even if it was a COTS item supplied in the kit. The parts that are not allowed from previous kits are those parts that were available only in the kits.

Jon Stratis 18-02-2008 15:47
Re: Spike relay question
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricH (Post 701565)
Again, the BB trannies from last year. That exact model isn't available anymore, but there is an upgraded model available. Last year's are allowed. I think you can reasonably extrapolate this to the old Spikes.
And yet... if you get to competition and the judges say "wait, that wasn't in the rules, you aren't allowed to use those" you've got a problem... better to ask the GDC than show up having to do some rework at competition.

EricH 18-02-2008 15:49
Re: Spike relay question
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle33199 (Post 701718)
And yet... if you get to competition and the judges say "wait, that wasn't in the rules, you aren't allowed to use those" you've got a problem... better to ask the GDC than show up having to do some rework at competition.
Well, the judges won't say anything, but the inspectors will...

And GDC has allowed the BB trannies. IF you ask them, though, print the answer and bring it, just to be on the safe side.

Al Skierkiewicz 19-02-2008 10:26
Re: Spike relay question
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryVoshol (Post 701676)
What matters in the rule is not whether parts from old kits are available now. What matters is if they were available on the market then. You can reuse unaltered off-the-shelf parts from old robots, if they were COTS items. Even if it was a COTS item supplied in the kit. The parts that are not allowed from previous kits are those parts that were available only in the kits.
Gary,
I don't read the rules that way...
Robot Rules section 8.2
COTS – A “Commercial, Off-The-Shelf” COMPONENT or MECHANISM, in it’s unaltered, unmodified state. A COTS item must be a standard (i.e. not custom order) part commonly available from the VENDOR, available from a non-team source, and available to all teams for purchase.

Parts that are not available now are not COTS items under this definition.

Vikesrock 19-02-2008 11:17
Re: Spike relay question
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz (Post 702285)
Gary,
I don't read the rules that way...
Robot Rules section 8.2
COTS – A “Commercial, Off-The-Shelf” COMPONENT or MECHANISM, in it’s unaltered, unmodified state. A COTS item must be a standard (i.e. not custom order) part commonly available from the VENDOR, available from a non-team source, and available to all teams for purchase.

Parts that are not available now are not COTS items under this definition.
<R36> would like to respectfully disagree. Items that were previously COTS but are no longer available are legal providing they are unmodified.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FRC Manual
<R36> COTS ITEMS from ROBOTS entered in previous FIRST competitions or COTS
MECHANISMS that are no longer commercially available may be used under the following
conditions:
 The item must be unmodified, and still in its original condition as delivered from the
VENDOR
 The item must not be a part custom made for the FIRST competition and provided in the
Kit Of Parts for a previous FIRST Robotics Competition (e.g. 2006 FRC transmissions,
custom-made motor couplers, custom sensor strips, 2006 IFI CMUcam II modules, etc.
are not permitted)
 The item must satisfy ALL of the rules associated with materials/parts use for the 2008
FIRST Robotics Competition)

Al Skierkiewicz 19-02-2008 11:55
Re: Spike relay question
 
Kevin,
I believe we are in agreement. R36 and the COTS definition is contradictory. I believe the intent of the definition is to level the playing field and allow only COTS parts that are available to all teams. I believe the intent of R36 is to allow teams that have mechanicsms from previous years to use them without the added cost of finding new parts each year. (See also the rule on using previous years small CIM motors.)

Racer26 19-02-2008 12:07
Re: Spike relay question
 
I recall there being some debate in 2003 when the 'blue' spikes, and the victor 884s were introduced to replace the 883s and the 'red' spikes whether or not the spikes were actually different, or if the colors had just been changed for consistency.


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