Re: Is there a place this year for robots that cant hurdle?
 

Most likely, the robots that do hurdle will either be highly ineffective or slow. I predict the majority of the points will be made in hybrid from going around the track.

Re: Is there a place this year for robots that cant hurdle?
 

It wouldn't be hard to win with 3 good "hybrid" bots and a bunch of defense afterwards. But I'm sure that a very good hurdler will be in every winning alliance. I agree with waialua359, hybrid is where its at. Even though there's rules on impeding, there's still going to be a lot of traffic to contend with. Especially wherever the balls are.
To answer the question though, just running laps will get difficult in the inevitable traffic. Unless you're totally committed to that, and very small, like 148.

Re: Is there a place this year for robots that cant hurdle?
 

We have had a few days of practice plus a few practice matches and from experience that i have gained it will be easy to herd a ball especially if you possess it.

Also forklift hurdlers will take up lots of time in there hurdling and they are genrally slower.

So i think it will be necessary to have at least one hurdler but you can get away with the other being an alternate scorer and a racer.

Re: Is there a place this year for robots that cant hurdle?
 

We should take a page out of 2006 and 07.
In 06, you could lose a match if you got blown out during autonomous. When matches were 40+ to 0 after autonomous, how could you possibly win (very little chance). It was not consistent because opponents could try and block you, messing things up. However, this year, no opponent is even in your area to try and block you. Thus, good autonomous bots will be more consistent, especially with the aid of the IR.
In 07, only 1 ringer at a time, and many teams claimed in practice, they could do 7-10 in a match by themselves and I saw it during the practice day (with no traffic and defense). Then during competition, no one got remotely close to averaging that by themselves and you seldom saw it done by an average alliance, because of...............defense and traffic.
This year, 08, you have lots of points potential from autonomous and lots of chance for defense and traffic because only 2 balls will be available per alliance.
Conclusion: Autonomous is important. Defense is important. We will see lots of traffic, tipped-over bots, broken pieces on the field, and frustrated teams. **exagerating a bit**:D

Re: Is there a place this year for robots that cant hurdle?
 

My optimal alliance would have two good shooters and one racer.

In my opinion, arm bots will not be able to keep up with good shooters and the racer could race and of course mess around with the other teams trackballs.

Re: Is there a place this year for robots that cant hurdle?
 

Both shooters and arms have the same amount of power available. If it is employed effectively, it should not matter whether the power is used for an arm or shooter, both should be able to score at about the same pace.

The wise alliance will make good use of all its members in spite of any limitations they might have. Just be honest about what those limitations are. This game also has more potential for team action than some previous games. Be a good team player, do your best, and the rest will take care of itself.

My team is often on the picking end. There have been times that we have NOT picked high performing robots because we had trouble interfacing with the team and there was a slightly less capable but more co-operative alternative. Playing well with others counts too

Re: Is there a place this year for robots that cant hurdle?
 

i'm thinking two hurdlers, hopely arms and then a ultra fast herder

Re: Is there a place this year for robots that cant hurdle?
 

I think it depends. In the earlier regionals, you'll probably see 2 hurdlers and a herding robot / race robot. One robot could move each trackball to the next robot theoretically, but I don't think that will happen too much. That 3rd robot in each alliance is going to be interesting to say the least, but I think if you've got a quick drive and can manipulate the balls by knocking them off the overpass and herding them if necessary, then you're going to look very attractive to an alliance partner.

By the championship though you'll probably see alliances made of 3 very quick hurdlers.

Re: Is there a place this year for robots that cant hurdle?
 

I think being able to keep the ball away from the other team is highly UNDERATED on this board. If you push the ball backwards past the lines, a robot from the other team would have to go all the way around, past the finish line, and miss the opportunity to hurdle the ball.

There are a lot of stratagies to be used for robots who can not hurdle !!!!!!

Re: Is there a place this year for robots that cant hurdle?
 

In the early weeks, I feel that bots unable to hurdle will have a larger role, particularly (as just mentioned), as nuisances. Keeping balls away from the effective herders will be ever bit as important (if not more so) than them doing laps.
Later on, as drive teams get more skilled and educated, and as robots come together more, we'll see more coordination. More "relays" and "passing" will come into play, and teams will learn what it takes to maintain control of the ball (which, especially with shooters, makes it important to have three teams at least capable of manipulating the track balls well).
Hybrid is where the "speed-demons" can be dangerous, as we've already seen two teams capable of running nearly three full laps in hybrid alone (148 and 1519)...on an open field. The question is, how much further can they make it than a 217 (or other speedy hurdler)?
The only real advantage to not having the ability to hurdle is the ability to make a tiny robot (ala 148 and 1519), but we have yet to see how much of an advantage that really is. Especially given that neither of them have mechanisms designed to maneuver the trackball, and that their small size hurts their ability to control trackballs and the traffic on the track.
Ultimately, a vast majority of the major "factors" (good bots) will at least have the ability to hurdle. Not all of them will use it all the time, but everything a lap-bot can do, so can a fast hurdler if it wants to. And most alliances will likely want and need the flexibility of the third hurdler to help enhance their offense.

Then again, I am a fan of the spread offense (football), the torpedo (hockey), the Phoenix Suns style offense (basketball), the 296/217/522 alliance of 2006, and the 1595/116/93 alliance of 2007. So my strategic perceptions may be a bit biased... :rolleyes:

Re: Is there a place this year for robots that cant hurdle?
 

The only problem with this is there an easy defensive tactic to prevent this, this tactic is called doing nothing, if you stand still in autonomous mode right next to the endline running robots will not be able to complete even one lap

Re: Is there a place this year for robots that cant hurdle?
 

But then that brings up the argument: Is the sacrifice worth it?

Re: Is there a place this year for robots that cant hurdle?
 

Personally, I don't think that'd be worth it, as you're not only attempting to prevent them from completing laps, but sacrificing your lap points and preventing your partners from completing laps. Additionally, I'd like to see how well your bot can maintain it's position when it's clipped at high speeds by a 148 or 1519. I'd think that they'd be fully capable of nudging past you on the inside of the track. You'd slow them down some, but I highly doubt you'd stop them.

Re: Is there a place this year for robots that cant hurdle?
 

I can see robots with very limited sensors passing 1 maybe 2 lines scoring 4 or 8 points. Lets do the math...stop a mad lap bot from multiple laps(16pts per lap)...or sit there and hold them to 4 possibly 8 if you get shoved over. And if they do hit you or any obstacle what are the chances there robot will have sophisticated enough control systems to continue making laps?

Doing nothing or moving a couple feet will be one of the most common significant defensive play this year, and depending on who your facing it will be worth the sacrifice.

(and realize that most speed demon bots are full weight and would hit a bot that most likely is, plus they're geared higher and most likely couldn't push you out of the way.)

Re: Is there a place this year for robots that cant hurdle?
 

During autonomous, I have to agree. How sophisticated are robots to be able to avoid traffic or once they hit something, can they regroup and still move forward.
The part I dont get is why try and go around the track. We didnt try to create an autonomous to move around the entire track because we DONT want to risk hitting bots and either tip over or break something.
I look at some teams that have fast hurdling bots planning to do autonomous around the track and I think to myself, what a risk!