My comments on shooters
 

I personally dont like the idea of a launching robot and I think it is unsafe. There were some issues at some 2006 regionals where balls were shot at the tech guys knocking over things. This was with small nerf balls. 8lb balls hurled with enough force to conciderably clear the 78" overpass could do worse. Some rambunctious members of my school have clearly proved that a seemingly lightly thrown trackball could injure a person no problem. Even with the victim expecting the blow. My convern is that if this is proven to be a saftey concern does any regional inspection team have the cajones to start disabling the ten plus shooting robots that will attend each competition. I think teams might get by just based upon sheer numbers of people the inspectors would have to DQ to declare this stratagy unsafe. Thoughts? Comments? Maybe I'm way off and bing a total idiot :)

Re: My comments on shooters
 

In my opinion, the GDC deemed launching robots safe enough to allow for their constrcution, and to alleviate some concerns in this manner, even released an entire update dedicated to shooter safety. While of course, arms are safer, the fact there are no rules explicity prohibiting launching the balls make it clear that unless done extremley carelessly, the GDC believes that shooting robots can be safe. Add to that the wall around the playing field, and I don't think it will be as dangerous are you describe it to be.

Disclaimer: I am not, and I have not spoken with any member of the GDC on this issue. I'm just providing my interpretation of the matter.

Re: My comments on shooters
 

It's a very valid point. However, rather than disable a very larger percentage of the playing field, it seems that FIRST would be more likely to put a very large penalty in place if a ball is fired out of the field.

FIRST doesn't seem like the type of competition where they would willingly and knowingly screw over a large group of teams without a second thought.

Re: My comments on shooters
 

There is definitely a safety issue, yes. Will the inspectors/refs DQ teams due to safety? Possibly. Remember, it's not the inspector's job to issue a DQ, it's the ref's. The inspector makes sure the robot is safe and legal, and can keep a robot from competing if there is a safety issue.

I think that, provided the launching only goes over the overpass, there should be no issue. If it starts going over field side "walls", then there would be an big issue.

Re: My comments on shooters
 

We'll have to see how it turns out this year. But I definitely thought there were some speed issues for the launchers in 06. I also thought there was a little too much ramming that year too.

Re: My comments on shooters
 

I predict that there will be trackball inflicted damages. Launching Bots will be a cause of this yes. However, not all teams with launchers are going to cause damage, so it is unfair to generalize that all of them are unsafe. I just hope that they don't inflict to much damage...

Re: My comments on shooters
 

This is exactly my point. Because so many teams went with this approach FIRST might sacrafice a decision they would make normally due to not wanting to DQ a lot of teams.

Re: My comments on shooters
 

From the point made here, perhaps with all the prediction of penalties during week 1 regionals, an update will come out with some concerns and possible game rule changes to address potential unsafe and ungracious play that the original rules have not addressed.
For example, in 2006, shooter speeds had a maximum "speed limit" placed. Maybe they may have teams adjust shooter speed mechanisms that are potentially dangerous. The difference being in 2006, the rule came out before regional action, while rule(s) changes may occur after week 1 regionals are played out.
Personally, I hope nothing bad really happens, very few penalties occur, and no one gets frustrated and has a grand old time!

Re: My comments on shooters
 

Personally, I think some shooting robots will have an advantage. I have no idea what inspectors have in their mind as a "safe shooter," but I guess we will find that out as the regionals roll by. As said above, a whole update was released on just shooters; I am sure FIRST/GDC has thought this out throughly before permitting shooting robots. The only thing you need to worry about is your robot and how it is going to react when there is a 8 lbs 40" in diameter ball flying at your machine.

Re: My comments on shooters
 

It's obvious that the GDC has considered this-see the Team Update with the lengthy list of considerations on how to treat launchers like loaded cannons with lit fuses. I think that that update provides a perfect justification for them to impose a penalty on any safety violations and DQ after warnings, and I doubt they'll do anything else. However, I think that if all those rules are followed, there is nothing that makes all "shooters" inherently unsafe.

Re: My comments on shooters
 

The perception of danger can be a uniquely personal thing. I don't mean to dispute your perception of a flying trackball as being something that presents a potential hazard, and hope that your team members who were injured by the flying trackball have since recovered with no permanent harm. I must, however, suggest that in relation to the myriad other hazards present at an FRC event, that the injury potential of robot-launched trackballs pales in comparison.

Consider the hazards involved in:

Driving to the event (likely the most dangerous part of the event, although hardly perceived as such)
Using cutting and boring tools such as knives, drills and saws.
Slipping on a wet floor, or falling down the stairs of the stadium.
Lifting and carrying heavy objects, some possibly with unintentionally sharp edges.
150lb high velocity metal machines that can clean you out at the ankle if you get in their way
Eating at a variety of cheap restaurants (I suspect food poisoning will send more FRC competitors to hospital than trackballs will this year)
Competitors rolling, bouncing, sitting and surfing on trackballs
etc. etc.

The point is not to suggest that lauchers do not present some additional risk, but rather that the risk can be mitigated to a point where it is managable. Life is not about avoiding risk, but managing it.

Jason

Re: My comments on shooters
 

You show a good point. I dont mean to suggest that everything should be bubble wrapped, I am more worried about the annoyances and game delays of having the Dj station getting bombarded by trackballs for example then the very off chance any1 actually gets injured by a ball. I just think its out of character for FIRST to allow this stratagy even to endorse it.

Re: My comments on shooters
 

My dad can vouch for the cheap restaurants, he got food poisoning for about two weeks at Silicon Valley.

As for the trackballs, Woody brings up a good point that they can be dangerous, but I dont see many trackballs clearing the driver's station wall, due to a combination of physical limitations and driver sensibility. No one wants to be known as the team that took out the opposing drive team with a trackball.

Re: My comments on shooters
 

Lately I've been giving this a lot of thought... we have a simple arm bot with a forklift that without a traffic jam, can hurdle about 3 times a match. But another useful (maybe not wise) strategy is to park our robot with it's forklift up in front of the opponent's overpass. As long as we don't impede a robot - it seems perfectly legal to block a "shooter's" ball launch. The down side is the force with which the ball may hit our robot may not be healthy for our robot. But let's just say we try this, maybe in the elim's and the opponents ball hits our forklift section and pops (this happen just this way at a scrimmage already). Now the opponent is left with just one ball. Is the ball popping intentional? It's not like we built daggers on our forklift, but the force the ball hits with makes it very vunerable to an exposed screw or bolt (which is how a ball popped on us at the scrimmage).

Re: My comments on shooters
 

In a thread a few weeks back, Dave Lavery acknowledged that it's pretty likely that the scoring table will be wiped out by a trackball at least once this season, and if I know anything about Dave, I'd say he's secretly looking forward to it. FIRST has known about this from day one, which is why the guardrails are higher than in years past. There are some inherent hazards, but like you said, you can't bubble-wrap everything. It's gonna be a fun season... I'm looking forward to seeing a lot of very creative bots (and maybe a few panicking FTAs).

Re: My comments on shooters
 

I doubt it. Though not everyone likes their decisions, or games, the GDC is a smart group of people. They knew in advance when they made this game that people would shoot/launch the ball if they didn't put in a rule preventing it, and they didn't put in such a rule. This tells us that if they didn't outright want teams to shoot the ball, they at least weren't opposed to the idea.

If teams have unsafe robots of any kind--shooter, arm bots, herders, etc, I'm sure they will be handled as best as possible during inspection for things like pinch points, unsafe release of energy, etc, and through penalties/yellow/red cards by referees during gameplay.

Re: My comments on shooters
 

My comment/question is how many 'shooter' robots will fail inspection because they do not indicate they are 'loaded' like it said in the team update. The team update stated that teams need to have a visible warning as to when the device to launch a trackball was ready. It could be a flag or a light, just something to warn people. Some very interesting solutions will be thought up on Thursday's at regionals as I believe teams have overlooked this update.

I started a poll about launcher 'armed' indicators: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...threadid=65125

Re: My comments on shooters
 

Everything is relative. A 145lb robot traveling at 18fps can do far more damage than any trackball that has been launched. 2007's arms coming up in the wrong place (you know what I mean) could easily cause intense pain. Airborn flags from years past became projectiles. Arms getting tubes over the alliance station walls aways got a little bit too close to players heads for my comfort level. My point is that you can always find something that is dangerous. It is how you deal with that danger that is important.

Most shooters will not find it necessary to arm themselves except while on the playing field or when testing with whatever necessary precautions are needed (i.e. not in the pits). All the kids on my team are well aware of the dangers when their robot is armed (we did several dry launches). What concerns me is what will happen when the match is over. While we plan to release any stored energy before the end of the match, I am sure that there will be times when we or other teams will not release. That means that people will be scrambling to get their robots off the field with an armed launcher waiting to attack. We drove the robot around knocking ito things, bumped the launcher itself etc etc. while it was loaded to make sure that it only fires when commanded and we were never successful in getting it to accidentally launch. While the kids on my team are trained in what to do/what not to do when the robot is armed, no one else is. The first thing we will do when approaching the robot is insert a foot long pin that prevents the robot from firing or if the conditions allow, manually release the energy.

To me, the most dangerous time is when people unfamiliar with our robot are going near it to get their own robot or resetting the field. Perhaps they should take ten seconds after a match is complete to get a thumbs up/thumbs down signal from the launchers on the field that either their robot is safe (thumbs up), go ahead and clear the field or they need to lock out the launcher (thumbs down). Or have a simple, do not go within five feet of a launcher after a match until the team is there and gives their OK.

Re: My comments on shooters
 

Arms are not inherently safer than launchers. In Triple Play, a human player was hit in the head by another robot's arm while she was loading the robot. I don't recall whether the other team got a penalty or not. Sarah was on the ground, the match was continuing, and she had to scramble back to her touch-pad so the robot would run again.

Re: My comments on shooters
 

There are only 4 balls in play. I would imagine that the refs(or spotters), probably 2 per side, could easily keep track of and stop or deflect the out of bounds balls.

Re: My comments on shooters
 

If FIRST was really worried about flying trackballs (I think they should be too) then they should have put walls on both sides of the field as opposed to just the low fences.

I think some shooters may be more unsafe than others (huge spring tensions, etc.) but, overall, it's an important part of the game. Shooters can do something placers can't: hurdle while continuing forward motion, and forward motion is an integral part of this year's game.

Woody1458: Do you have a shooter on your robot?

-q

Re: My comments on shooters
 

We would love to be able to add a pressure switch, second back up battery and a flashing red light, strob, LEDS, or whatever on a totaly independent circut to indicate when we are armed. The current rules do not allow us to do that. Even better would be if we were able to draw directly off the main battery (for teams with possible weight issues). By doing this, while the field is being reset, everyone will know we are armed. I can just see a well meaning field volunteer grabing the trackball off our robot and having it accidentally fire. Please read my previous post for a further explainatiuon of my concerns.

Re: My comments on shooters
 

They did. From page 4 of "The Arena" manual:

Re: My comments on shooters
 

I tend to agree with this view, and I was under the impression that most of the sides of the field (read: except the gates) have a ~6' polycarb wall for ball containment... granted, we'll be launching balls ~7+' in the air.

I'm not too worried about throwing it over the opposing driver station... the physics makes it difficult to impart the kind of energy into the ball required to do that.

And while there are no physical lockouts built into our design (besides simply releasing the pressure from our pneumatics), the code has been written with several lockouts to prevent launching when our mechanism isn't in the proper position (read: we have a 'pickup' position, a 'carry/armed' position, and a 'just launched' position, and its the transition from carry->launch that imparts all of our force into the ball... and its all pneumatic. Although, unlike some of 1075's previous 'multi-position' pneumatic designs, like our 2007 arm, it's not a 'stop-anywhere' pneumatic setup.) It is impossible (read: the code doesn't allow it) for the robot to attempt to launch from the 'pickup' position.

Re: My comments on shooters
 

The original comments are valid.

The flip side answer is for ALL teams to assume that ALL robots are armed when entering the playing field. I will assume that comment like this will be made at the drivers meeting. I know that this will be something my drivers will hear over and over again.

"While entering the playing field please assume that ALL robots are armed and loaded at all times".

Re: My comments on shooters
 

still, if your shooter is designed to get the ball 6'6" high, it probably should be able to clear 6' walls... why not 10' walls? oh well, teams will probably have to work on their aim...

Re: My comments on shooters
 

You obviously haven't seen our elevator. It could kill a man...

Whenever you move heavy objects quickly things get dangerous. It doesn't matter if you are using an arm or a catapult.

Re: My comments on shooters
 

I agree with the dangers point, but i also believe that that GDC will not make a rule to screw over a large amount of teams.

I saw a picture of team 1501 ( I think ) hurlding a track ball and it made it about 5 feet over the overpass, that's about 12.5 feet from the center of the ball to the ground....
That could get pretty hard to block the balls if they head out of bounds.

Re: My comments on shooters
 

Probably the best idea is to have the field reset crew on duty for it.

You probably will not pass inspection if this is the case. If the inspector sees a system on your bot that has no way to slowly release the tension/energy or a way to physcially make it impossible for the system to discharge (even then you never know) then you probably will not pass inspections. For spring catapults, it's been suggested that you have a lock bar that physically disallows the mechanism to release. For pneumatics, you simply would discharge the whole system via the valve. If it's a combo system, well you'll have to figure out something. I'm sure the field reset crew will learn to ask teams to get the balls off/out of their own robots instead of doing it themselves.


We call our elevator the guillotine! It takes 3.2 seconds to go up and 2.6 seconds to come down. With the support bars in the back that cross each other during the lift, it's pretty scary -- no one was allowed to stick their hands through at all during the build season.

Re: My comments on shooters
 

If team update #5 had not been published, I may see your point. But it was published and many safety measures were outlined, so I am not too worried about this issue.

A robot with an arm 9' in the air tipping over can cause just as much damage as a flying TrackBall.

Re: My comments on shooters
 

I'll be one of the few panicking FTAs. And my own team will be among those that need close watching. They'd better shoot straight, or things could get interesting. See this video.

Oh, and all you drive teams, please put some velcro hooks under your controls.

Re: My comments on shooters
 

DAAAAANG

We may need hardhats :P

Re: My comments on shooters
 

I was thinking of putting bullseyes on the scorekeepers, announcer and myself, like at a shooting gallery, but decided it probably isn't the show FIRST had in mind!

Seriously, we'll be watching for unsafe operation of all robots - whether they're shooters, arms or lappers. <S01> has a big footprint. As far as shooters go, I think it will behoove the drivers to be very careful about where they point that thing before they pull the trigger.

One of the things I like about Overdrive is the number of ways to score points and I'm hoping to see lifts, arms, catapults and lappers racking 'em up this week!

With regards to field reset safety and armed catapults, one solution I saw a team use that looked very simple and effective was to wrap a heavy-duty adjustable cable lock around the catapult and the robot chassis. McMaster sells this one (1033A31, $25.35):

Re: My comments on shooters
 

While a shot trackball may cause damage...its not any more danger than the robots themselves. Robots are dangerous... This is why we take into account all of the safety measures that go with them. Some of these teams that are pushing 20 fps @ 120 lbs....THATS A LOT OF ENERGY.

I see how shooters can be dangerous, but I can see how every robot could be dangerous in some aspect. I think singling shooters out here in my opinion, is kind of lame. Sure they throw the ball, but being cautious from the beginning is going to keep everyone safe.

Re: My comments on shooters
 

But Richard, FTAs aren't allowed to panic.

Dodge yes, but panic certainly not!

We're the ones that are supposed to be making sure everything holds together. We can't do that if we're coming apart. So be prepared to duck and cover the scoring system, but keep your head together. (At least until the ball takes you out)

Re: My comments on shooters
 

Will the FTAs be wearing body armor? LOL

Re: My comments on shooters
 

"Robots will have to be built robustly to avoid damage from falling Trackballs."
-- 2008 Overdrive Animation.

There are non-shooting robots that can drop a Trackball more than 10' (Team 294: front and center!). An eight pound ball dropped from that height can do some serious damage. Balls dropped from that height can also careen off the field. Safety concerns about the kinetic energy of Trackballs will involve more than shooters.

I think the bigger concern is the risk of the shooter mechanism itself. Teams with shooters need to consider the effects of various failure modes (i.e. suppose this bolt comes loose, what if this bracket gets bent, and so on) and design accordingly. Team members should be prepared to tell the inspectors what fail-safe provisions are included to avoid injury to team members and people NOT familiar with the robot (referees, alliance partners, field reset, etc.). If your robot is a shooter, your "Release Safety Officer" should expect to get grilled on the contents of Update 5. Inspectors will not give much lattitude to a team that hasn't paid attention to safety considerations in their design.

Re: My comments on shooters
 

Currently we have several possible ways to prevent a release. The best would be to launch with ten seconds left in the match with or without a trackball (I know, be careful where we shoot if not making a hurdle). The second is the mechanical stop used for the release, it holds very well, however there is always a chance it could release, it does not require any energy to stay put. The third is a bar that we push through the launcher and other support structures, this must be physically placed by a team member. The fourth is a very slow backdrive on a worm gear, this one has to be deactivated in order for us to launch and may not be practical to use while on the field, again, in the last five seconds we could reactivate it. We have several ways to prevent, slowly or quickly release the energy. I guess we will find out at our first regional if we have done enough.

Re: My comments on shooters
 

I agree with David. The biggest danger I see from shooters is parts coming off of the machines not the ball itself, especially on the stored energy machines.

Proper maintenance will be critical and I hope it will be stressed by the inspectors.

Re: My comments on shooters
 

agreed, teams will need to be closely monitoring their machine for stressed parts.

Re: My comments on shooters
 

We didn't get kevlar FTA vests, but I'm lobbying for this patch for all field personnel:

Re: My comments on shooters
 

Maybe we should lobby, instead, for a field mod. We should have a large lexan box around the field. You know, like a raquet ball court! Then we can convert Overdrive to 3D pinball :D

Re: My comments on shooters
 

3D pinball... oh dear, now you've given Dave ideas for the 2009 game.

Re: My comments on shooters
 

Just like when Casey Mears drove the Target car in NASCAR. You put a target on it and some one will shoot, hit, or plow into it. I think he got wrecked more times that he finished. With a patch like that on you, people will definitely take aim.

Re: My comments on shooters
 

The denim in those things should be enough for a simple trackball, Pete. How many layers do they have with all those pockets?:D

Re: My comments on shooters
 

This is a good post, as I assume each of the issues stated will be encountered during the season. As a robot with a shooting mechanism, we have been extra careful to look at all states of the robot and ensure that we have mitigated any risk of inadvertent firing. We are implementing safety interlocks (pinning the rig) to prevent firing as well as a "loaded" sign and lastly training of the crew. The one thing that we identified is that the most risk is when the robot is switching states i.e. in process of loading, since it is doing it without user interaction. We've implemented a pneumatic safeguard that slowly vents the pneumatic at the end of the match to transition the robot back to a safe state in this case.

The other thing that I see this year is that physical interaction with the robot is not allowed. I think the GDC realized the risk of the interaction of students with the robot and eliminated it. I would expect that since there have been numerous posts of past injuries this will continue to be the case in years to come.

Re: My comments on shooters
 

nope. We decided that designing a shooter that could hold the ball well when we wanted it, but throw it well when we wanted it was far too complicated for our machining capabilities. Plus I didn't want to be the team that knocks out the Wildhats mascot with an "accidental" trackball launch :)

Re: My comments on shooters
 

Interesting....we built ours without ever powering up the milling machine...we used the bandsaw, hacksaw, drill press, some cordless drills, the Rotex round punch, and the rivet guns, plus a lot of files to round off the corners. And almost all our metal stock came from Ace hardware, except the sheet aluminum.

Re: My comments on shooters
 

I agree with squirrel. This is interesting. A lot of the catapults I've seen can be made fairly easily with hardware store supplies and some not-so-complex tools and machines.

Re: My comments on shooters
 

Ours involved the use of an Oxy-Acetylene torch for bending the 1" aluminum stock. I dont think any portions of it (except our pulleys) ever hit the lathe, or our mill.

Re: My comments on shooters
 

One thing I think we might see is driver station overhead protection, similar to 2005. With all the shooting/bouncing of balls, there's a good chance one will enter the driver stations and take out a few objects/people. :)

Re: My comments on shooters
 

I hope it's on before Championships and held on with more than zip ties, then (remembering '05). If you see one coming over, DUCK! (Unless you're Shane:D)

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We dont have a bandsaw, or a punch, and no machining mentors, only a smart dad that can come by once a week, our main mentor is programing only.

Re: My comments on shooters
 

There seems to be a lot of discussion going on about the safety issues of an errant trackball being shot out of the field. I am more concerned about the damage flying trackballs will cause on the field. Yes, we are supposed to build our machines to “take a licking and keep on ticking” but given the weight constraints we are given, many parts on many robots are not exactly bulletproof. I predict that flying 8 lb trackballs will do some substantial damage to many robots this year and GP or not, feelings are going to get hurt and tempers are going to flare. Think about those arms/lifts/etc up there 10 feet in the air getting hammered by a flying 8 lb 40” ball. I foresee some broken arms/lifts and totally tipped over bots from flying trackballs. I can just imagine the reaction the first time a team has their arm/lift/etc. way up in the air and their alliance PARTNER fires their super-duper trackball trebuchet and nocks over their arm/lift/etc. partner and/or destroys their arm/lift/etc and blocks the whole lane thus incurring a pile of penalties for damage, impeding, etc. and then not only loosing the match but ruining their alliance partners robot. Don’t get me wrong, I love the shooter designs I am seeing, I just wish FIRST had put some sort of limit on the shooter velocity as in 2006.

Re: My comments on shooters
 

I guess "far too complicated for our machining capabilities" is a relative statement!

But I still don't think that there is anything special about either a shooter or arm type robot that precludes any team from building either one, if they can figure out the easy way to do it. The designing is the tough part.