Day 1 Week 1
 

Just a few questions for everyone who have first week regionals:

What was different than expected(defense, mobility, etc.)?

Any cool designs that someone on your team thought of then you said "pfft that's cool but impossible"?

How did IR work in general?

Were lap counters reliable?

Also any little problems or things that weren't expected, like rules and things like that?

Re: Day 1 Week 1
 

Yes, don't leave us in the dark!!! I've got three more weeks to prepare, give me the details. Photos welcome.

Re: Day 1 Week 1
 

As stated in our "unveiling" thread- we had two problems caused by the field today

First- the height dimension for the overpasses has been getting lower and lower. By days end the sag had them down to 76" from the floor. A number of robots, including us, want to clip the bottom of the ball just under the overpass to pop it up. So if you counted on a more or less 78" be wary because it may be way off from that. We slammed the crossbar on our first outing and spent the rest of the day trying to finagle some solution to this inconsistency.

Second- Our IR system worked flawless at home. We pointed a dozen different remote controls at it, shot it through windows, pipes, cupped hands- well you get the picture. In the pits it worked like a charm.
On the field it suddenly became erratic and lost signal. Hmmm. After an afternoon of anguish we found the culprit- that damned flag beacon. The IR system to count the laps was mounted right next to our receiver and the beacon was blasting the system. We cut power to the beacon and it worked fine. So we moved the receiver and shielded it and that seems to work fine. Thanks to 1676 for the button we formed into a beacon shield.

As for game play- picture driving at rush hour when you are in a hurry to get home. Everybody- arm or no arm- needs the walls to corner the ball. And there is fair arm to arm contact.

Everybody is velcroing their control systems to the operator station because runaway robots in autonomous are smashing the far walls and tossing the controls off the shelf.

Overall the game is not as wonderful as I would have hoped.

WC:cool:

Re: Day 1 Week 1
 

Thanks for the info! We are used to a sagging overpass, since I made our test one out of too small of pipe....I guess our pool noodle ball knocker offer idea wasn't so flakey after all. And we have our IR receiver mounted low on the robot, but it might need some shielding.

Re: Day 1 Week 1
 

What kind of shielding could you use for an IR sensor? Would plastic stop signals, or would you have to use sheet metal?

Re: Day 1 Week 1
 

Do you have a TV? and a remote control? do some experiments!

(and let us know what you find)

Re: Day 1 Week 1
 

Hmm, well, it's one person's opinion so far. But thanks for the detailed update. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like it's a pretty hectic free-for-all.

Re: Day 1 Week 1
 

I don't have an answer to your question, but if you want to test a material to see if IR light passes through it, take a newer video camera with nightshot and look at your remote while sending signals. Put a material you want to test between the camera and the remote annd then see if you can still see the pulses.

Re: Day 1 Week 1
 

I very strongly recommend that everyone pay attention to this. Wildstang's control board went flying today after an exceptionally fast robot hit their driver station in hybrid mode. I know they won't be the last to experience this.

Re: Day 1 Week 1
 

In sports people want excitement and want to see lots of scoring.
I think that's what made it so exciting to watch the dominating robots in 2006. This game is much different.
After watching video footage today, it looked like someone played a VCR tape and kept it on slow motion (with the exception of speedy bots)
As predicted, grabbing/grasping the ball is tough and doing it with great efficiency is just as important as scoring efficiently, if your a hurdler.
Easy for me to watch it on video,.....must be something else for the student controllers trying to play the game.

Re: Day 1 Week 1
 

Holy moly! I hate to see what that bot looked like afterwards. Hope it didnt have a manipulator sticking out and bumpers in the front!:ahh:

Re: Day 1 Week 1
 

Hmm... we used to clamp our control boards to the shelf to avoid that problem. We haven't done it in a few years, but it sounds like it is time to break out the clamps again... Thanks for the info!

Re: Day 1 Week 1
 

Another option is if you have a camera phone or really cheap digital camera you will be able to see IR pulses through it.

Re: Day 1 Week 1
 

Wildstang left the field between the two rounds of the practice match. In the second round, the same robot hit the same spot again, this time so hard that one of their *side* bumpers snapped off. It's crazy out there.

Re: Day 1 Week 1
 

Before we shipped our robot, we added a layer of Lexan on the robot. It was also in front of the IR board. It worked fine, so I don't think Lexan affects an IR signal that much.

Re: Day 1 Week 1
 

I agree. We made a lexan case for our IR receiver and no problems receiving signal.

Re: Day 1 Week 1
 

ok now i am worried. i am a week two regional, and have some concerns. first off he have fiberglass grippers that go around the outside of the ball and i am concerned about them snapping off since people say that there is a lot of arm to arm contact. also during testing at home, we forgot to pick the wheels up off the ground when loading the program, and it shot forward (while still tethered) and we ended up herding a table! has anybody broken their arms yet...
like i said we are using fiberglass grippers that i molded, which are only 2 or 3 layers thick, with a plywood rib on the back...
does anybody think there will be a problem?

Re: Day 1 Week 1
 

Ever since our joystick snapped during the autonomous of the Pittsburgh semi-finals two years ago, 1629 has used a very heavy control panel with rubber pieces on the bottom. I think that adding the extra velcro will help.

Re: Day 1 Week 1
 

It would be helpful for teams to know the answer to this really big question, Wayne...which side of the velcro is facing up on the control station -fuzzy or loops?...and thanks for the tip regarding ir receiver positioning! Good luck on the track everybody.

Re: Day 1 Week 1
 

I knew it was in there somewhere....

"6.4.2 Player Stations

Attached to the Alliance Station Wall are three aluminum shelves to support the robot control systems of the three teams on the ALLIANCE. The support shelf measures approximately 60 inches wide by 12 inches deep. There is a 4-1/2-foot long by two-inch wide strip of Velcro tape (“loop” side) along the center of the support shelf that may be used to secure the ROBOT controls and Operator Interface. Each setup location includes a competition cable that attaches to the “Competition Port” of the Operator Interface. This cable provides power for the team’s Operator Interface and controls communications with the ROBOT. Emergency Stop (E-Stop) buttons for each team are located on the left end of each Player Station shelf. Arena components (including team number displays, competition arena hardware, alliance lights, control hardware cabinets and clock displays) are also located above the Player Station and below the shelf"

You need the hooks on your Operator Console, to grab onto the loops on the strip on the shelf.

Re: Day 1 Week 1
 

The loop side is the fuzzy side, right? The hooks are the plastic side.

I think we'll be making a modification to the back of our control board on Thursday in Detroit.

Re: Day 1 Week 1
 

We're just planning on bringing the roll of velcro and javing the drive team take a piece or two with them for the first practice match, and make sure to put it on in the right places.

Re: Day 1 Week 1
 

While I think this is a great idea I don't understand what everyone is velcroing their controls to? Is the shelf somehow different from previous years? In the past it was just an aluminum shelf and to my knowledge velcro (hook/loop part) doesn't stick to aluminum very well. If you are meaning teams are actually sticking the sticky side of the hook or loop half to the aluminum is FIRST allowing this? Whatever they are doing per the combination of <R13> (the operator controls are part of the robot except for weight) and <G34> (robots may not grab, grasp, grapple, or attach to any arena structure.) I didn't think we are allowed to attach the controls to the shelf.

Re: Day 1 Week 1
 

Yes the shelf is different. Squirrel already quoted the description from the manual in this thread.

Re: Day 1 Week 1
 

Thanks! I can't believe I missed that! Now I get it.

Re: Day 1 Week 1
 

What I want to know, since we're missing a webcast of BAE, is how 1519's speed demon of a robot is keeping up with decent hurdlers.

Re: Day 1 Week 1
 

I don't know from 1519's robot, but my first idea seeing the game announcement was, "I wonder if someone will build a mini-bot racer with Ackerman steering, high-grip wheels, and rear-wheel drive, just ignoring the ball completely." Sort of like a scale model Nascar racer, complete with stagger and the inability to turn right. Anyone build something like that?

Re: Day 1 Week 1
 

My team (Team 1678) built pretty much the exact robot you just described: Ackermann steering, high traction back powered wheel, an optional ball herding device.

Re: Day 1 Week 1
 

Wish I saw this sooner..... Our IR is right next to the beacon!! Quick fix tomorrow morning, and I hope our auto will work again.....

Do the balls at NJ seem overfilled?

Those robots with forks.... plan on getting them caught in the fencing.....

Re: Day 1 Week 1
 

That's basically 1519's speed racer (except that it can turn right). You can find video of it at www.team1519.org/teamvideos.asp
However, 1519 has another robot configuration which is a hurdler. They built both configurations to meet the robot requirements together, so they could place either one on the field, depending on what other teams were playing.
Unfortunately, they have not been allowed to use this strategy, and have only used their hurdler in competition.

Re: Day 1 Week 1
 

Hmmm, here at the St. Louis Regional, we broke our claw mecanism. It was held by hinges/bolts. We have slammed the robot into the wall multiple times, once breaking our welded aluminum joint. After this happened, we scrapped the claw and used just the arm to go up and knock balls. There are times when robots create traffic jams, but overall, there seems to be many teams that can only knock balls off. And yes, it is a slower paced game, although a couple teams built for speed (148: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fLf71xlVhE) have been zooming around.

Today, we were paired with a team that had one or two hurdlers, and our whole alliance was of hurders that can hit the ball off. There are actually REALLY good strategies for teams like these. We won two in a row like this... one was 56-42 and the next was 52-18.

ALSO - IMPORTANT RULES! For the teams that 'skimmed' the rules, there is a very important rule many teams seemed to be penalized for. Once your whole robot passes one of the white lines, your robot cannot pass the same white line even one inch. Our first match, we had 2 - 10 point penaltys for this and one 10 point penalty for 'illegal bumpers'. Our bolts broke and they were zip tied, no one said anything during Thursday. Because of this, we couldn't make our second match. So... remember these rules... it cost us 2 losses. First, our penalties were too high, and the second, we lost by 6 points, something we could have easily made up.

And something that goes with the above. During that first match, this happened a lot when i hit the center wall and backed up to correct. The center wall at some angles has a huge glare, you cannot see through it really at all. I had so much trouble knowing how far down I was. Maybe have your robo-coach have some signals, or be able to swap driver and arm side controlers easy to adjust for the glare.

Long post, but these were all the things going through my head. Just venting. GL. If you need more details, jsus ask.

Re: Day 1 Week 1
 

Notes from Portland, OR based on my experiences today. We had a frustrating day, but are doing well.

-- The number of penalties called per match seems to have fallen throughout the day, but not because behaviors changed.
-- Protection for hurdlers under <G42> (I think) is a joke.
-- If I can hear a midfield collision behind the player station, you might want to consider that it could've been "high-speed" and penalize the behavior.
-- Had some trouble with IR stuff early on, but it's working now. Probably an issue with our machine.
-- High score is 70 so far; not as high-scoring as other events, but that's not unexpected.
-- I was given the hard copy of our Bill of Materials back after inspection and told it was no longer needed; today they asked for it again from all teams and I hadn't brought it along. Frustrating.
-- Few teams knocking ball down in hybrid; we're pretty reliable. 1540 can get two balls in hybrid if unimpeded. They're 1st seed. Lots of drive straight stuff; a handful more with left/right control. Very few running more than two lines.
-- No idea what to look for from refs. regarding "signals to pass". I didn't see any impeding penalties, though.
-- Track is a mess. Teams designed to have small footprints and no items projecting outside their bumpers are best at running laps. Ball manipulators get caught up in things like crazy.
-- The track divider is very reflective and it's hard to see to the opposite corner of the field.
-- Driver's meeting this morning said that trackballs couldn't be used to "signal to pass," as I recall.
-- Be able to turn off your autonomous mode. I've spent a lot of time today coordinating autonomous modes and trying to figure out how to get the robots to avoid colliding with one another. Being able to turn off your hybrid mode so that another machine can run its own is a good thing to have.
-- You can place your robot against the fence. Honestly, I'm not making this up. Nobody seems to know this.
-- Fast lap running robots cannot draw any penalties if they want to be at all effective. If your control of the machine isn't perfect, slow down and do everyone a favor.

The game is playing out pretty well like I expected -- it's a mess on the field and the stuff people demonstrate in their practice field is almost meaningless. We've had one match today that let us really open up and score, but most of the time, all of the hurdlers are getting neutered by robots blocking the way -- sometimes their partners, sometimes not. Still, so far, they can't be beat by anything else.

Also, for the record -- arms are beating catapults. :)

Re: Day 1 Week 1
 

Drat! I have a feeling this will end up shifting as the catapult/launcher/shooter teams get more practiced.

Re: Day 1 Week 1
 

There are not very many here. Only a couple, but even if the launchers are too close, they hit rack, bounce back, hit robot, and roll across... it has been working out for them.

Re: Day 1 Week 1
 

I am surprised on the comment on the arm vs. catapult.
We built an arm, but thought for sure, catapults would perform much better.
However, after watching regional play, I saw a lot of missed hurdling from shooter/catapult bots and saw more arms hurdling.
I am also very surprised that majority of teams are NOT hurdling for one reason or another.
Could it be that robustness, though discussed, has been underestimated and underplayed during the past several weeks? The pits must be like crazy with teams trying to fix manipulators that broke during matches.
Maybe the arm bots, though slower than a shooter, are more effective and accurate in drivers trying to hurdle.

Re: Day 1 Week 1
 

I think this is specific to your regional--launchers are cleaning house at MWR.

Re: Day 1 Week 1
 

33 seemed to utilize the main advantage being mentioned about arms to take down 1114 in match 44 (placing). Wildstang hasn't looked to shabby with their elevator either (seemed to get better and better as the day went on).

I'll agree with you that the shooters at MWR have looked more impressive so far, but IMO the verdict is still definitely out on this debate.

Re: Day 1 Week 1
 

While 33 has a great elevator and is quick for an arm bot due to their grabber rotating back, and Wildstang has looked better as the day went on, it was quite clear to me the top 3 teams at the event are 1114, 71, and 1625 (all shooters).

Re: Day 1 Week 1
 

And here I thought this was just an affliction experienced by Midwest. It's kind of ridiculous watching every alliance try to cram all three robots against the player station wall. Seriously, guys... use the fence.

Re: Day 1 Week 1
 

Yes Velcro is hook and loop, loop is the fuzzy side. Put the hook on your controller.




A few words of advice:

Hybrid mode is very important. Get your robots moving. Even if it just moves a little and gets in the way of an opposing bot its a plus.

When discussing strategy with your alliance, determine which robot gets ball priority. When you have three robots going for two balls your best shooter will get robbed of chances to hurdle.

It can be difficult to see your home stretch from the #1 player station because of the glare. Slightly tinted or yellow safety glasses will help if your regional will allow them. I think after fields get lots of play it may get even worse for the later regionals.

Re: Day 1 Week 1
 

Penalties seem to play a bigger factor than I thought they would, but in a different way. I thought the penalties folks would get would be for interfering with hurdling and such, but after watching many matches, I'm surprised how many teams go backward over a line. Just think, you do 5 laps and earn 10 pts, make one mistake going back over a line and you have 0 pts.

Good to see at NJ, they DQ'd a team for ramming into the alliance station in Hybrid mode and broke 555's controller in HALF!!

Re: Day 1 Week 1
 

Theres not a lot of defense this year..I think FIRST wanted people know what the robots can do...for the people that have IR board working and use hybird mode its working out pretty well...our NJ Regional winners alliance had a great hybrid mode which put them ahead in almost every match..and other than that its the same old same old..I felt NJ Regional seemed they weren't ready for it yet idk its probably because of the success of our teams robot...I hope our next Regional in Florida is more successful for us.

Re: Day 1 Week 1
 

Three things I noticed about game play that I didn't expect:
1. There is a lot more defense then I had anticipated, needless to say it doesn't even compare to last year.
2. All good alliances need a good shooter.(if you don't have to stop to hurdle you have a big advantage over everyone that needs to stop)
3. Hybrid mode is very important because I have seen a lot of struggling just to pass two lines. The teams that I have seen that pass 3 or more lines in hybrid consistently seem to be very successful.