Re: Rule G22 needs to be changed
 

I would have to disagree with this point. I have been at Midwest for the last 2 days and have never seen a robot that crossed a line because they were trying to interntionally go backwards. I have seen robots with drivers that have little or no experience and struggle to control the robot crossing a line by 1/2" and then breaking the plane resulting in a penalty. We are putting a ton of pressure on the student drivers if we are expecting them to control a robot in a high stress situation, looking 50 feet down a field through multiple layers of lexan (that is reflecting in all kinds of funny ways) and keep from crossing a line backwards with no tolerance for error. In many cases, they can't even tell if they have crossed the line or not.

I am lucky to have an exceptional drive team, but I am sympathetic to those teams that have inexperienced drive teams.

By not penalizing until to robot completely crosses back across the line, you give the the drivers the length of the robot to recognize their error and correct it. This seems much more in the spirit of the game and of the mission of FIRST than penalizing a tiny error.

Re: Rule G22 needs to be changed
 

I will agree that this rule does seem to be a bit harsh in a lot of situations, especially in autonomous mode where there isn't anything you can do about your robot (unless you have a working Robo coach program). Unless there is a team with an auton program that is obviously making an intentional effort to go against traffic, I don't think the penalty should be so severe.

Tele-operated mode is a slightly different story, I can see how the rule needs to be there to prevent teams from going back across, but I don't think it's necessary to give a 10 point penalty just because a team happened to go like an inch across while still trying to go in the correct direction. Now if you have teams trying to go back to grab a ball, thats an obvious penalty, but so long as the intention is there, I don't see how it would cause a problem.


From a drivers point of view, it is very difficult to see your robot on the other side of the field, especially with the number of other robots that can be impeding your vision at the same time.

I guess I would just like to see the rule at least a little less strict.

Re: Rule G22 needs to be changed
 

Speaking as a former referee (2005) intent is incredibly hard to judge in the heat of the moment. You can't assume anything about intent, only what your eyes have seen on the field.

You either have to call every infraction, no matter how small, or figure out how to keep teams from continuing to receive penalties, be it a rule change, or simply more practice for teams, etc.

Re: Rule G22 needs to be changed
 

Speaking as one of the many many loophole finders that plague the GDC every single season.... Dave's proposed rule change is going to cause more problems and is probably just going to be exploited by teams that could take advantage of it. I can think of a few teams that would benefit from redoes by whipping out an extension behind their robot so they have about 5 feet of wiggle room.

Honestly, if you really really absolutely hated this rule, just switch it from an instant penalty to a timed penalty like the endzone encroachment last year. You get a fair warning but still have leeway to sneak a bumper across th plane by accident.

Re: Rule G22 needs to be changed
 

G22 is the 2008 version of the incredibly high 30-point penalties from Triple Play in 2005.

Yeah, we all hated the rule. Yeah, there were a ton of penalties. But eventually, teams got used to it and drivers learned to drive a lot more carefully while at the opponents end of the playing field.


That being said, I certainly do not like the amount of penalties being seen in this year's game. One way or another, I sure hope it goes down as the season progresses.

Re: Rule G22 needs to be changed
 

I just don't get it. You have 30+ inches to figure out if the congestion will hurt you. Don't fully cross the line if you think you might have to go backwards. There are too many penalties because people are causing the penalties by not following the rules (in most cases).

This rule was clear from the start, never changed, and gives us 30+" of leway .. I just don't get why people are attacking this rule.

Re: Rule G22 needs to be changed
 

I havent competed yet, but I think the big deal is that there are a lot of penalties occuring AND its affecting match outcomes.
I cant speak for the drivers that are doing it wondering why they aren't careful enough or the reasons why they "accidentally" do it (lack of sight, etc.) but I think its safe to say that teams dont purposely accumulate penalties and the comment about the lexan glare is a valid one.
I certainly can understand some of the points made by my observations watching regional play from the "side" view all day.:D

Re: Rule G22 needs to be changed
 

They are taking an incredibly hard line on this rule, and it needs to be modified.

I watched a number of matches where a robot crossed a line, turned to proceed onwards, and back corner of the bot crossed the line again when they turned. Instant penalty.

When a rule is broken this much, clearly unintentionally, then it needs to be changed. The spirit of the rule is to prevent backwards motion of the robots - against the flow of traffic. The letter of the law is making it very dangerous to do any maneuvering. MANY times it's being broken because bot has to back up to get away from a wall, etc that they've been pushed or bumped into.

I agree with Dave. This rule is deciding way to many matches, and needs to be changed to penalizing a bot that FULLY crosses back over the line. Then all these small unintentional crossing penalties that are having a major impact on the final scores would be mitigated.

Re: Rule G22 needs to be changed
 

Paul, what I'm seeing a lot of and the reason I think this needs to be changed is that we're seeing lots of tank-steer robots which cross the line then start to tank-turn which causes one of their corners to back up slightly, creating a shadow about 1" long on the other side of the line and BAM... penalty. The majority of the penalties I'm seeing are not at all intentional and many are coming from younger teams with less experienced drivers.

Incidentally, I think we've only been penalized for this once. I'm not arguing for this change for the benefit of our team, but rather the many other less experienced teams that are getting dinged repeatedly basically just because they have inexperienced drivers and robots that aren't quite as easy to control.

Maybe it's just not being enforced as strictly at your regional as here.

Re: Rule G22 needs to be changed
 

That is a very good point. It is hard to judge "intent" when you have 5 other robots and such to watch. Thinking about it more, I do think that drivers will learn (over time) to be more careful and they'll pick up less of these penalties.

However, if someone has an auton that goes awry, I feel that it shouldnt be penaltized UNLESS it hurts another robot.

Re: Rule G22 needs to be changed
 

It sounds like the head referees at this weekends events need to meet with the GDC and decide if a change is needed, and if so, be sure it doesn't make the problem worse. I hated the way penalties decided matches in 2005, and I do not want that to rule the game this year. BUT, We all knew the rules before this weekend started, a new rule may be tough on some teams that are already avoiding this penalty.

Re: Rule G22 needs to be changed
 

After reading this thread, this is what I hear:

What is this? Complaining wiil get you nowhere and I doubt this rule will be changed. Yeah, so there have been really nice matches that could've bee close if it weren't for that 1/16" bit of bumber that broke G22, but that's life. I quote:

Next to Copioli, this guy makes the most sense. (Thank you.) C'mon, y'all, hate the players, not the game.

Re: Rule G22 needs to be changed
 

I haven't been to any matches, so all I have to go on is videos I have watched online. It does seem like a very large number of penalties are being called. This should at least cause the GDC to take a look at the rule.

I do think that lessening the penalty in autonomous mode would be a good idea. It seems as though this year's game was designed to try to get more teams to try to do autonomous operations. Having a big penalty is just going to discourage the least experienced teams from trying to do much in hybrid mode.

Re: Rule G22 needs to be changed
 

I honestly think Copioli nailed it. We'll be nailing down drivers on Thursday at Chesapeake, and I'll be training them to make turns with a bit more technique. More specifically, I'll be telling them to get well clear of the lane divider before turning, especially in traffic. Even if getting closer to the field barriers is a bit slower, I do not want us getting these penalties. The more you can be sure about your clearance, the better.

Re: Rule G22 needs to be changed
 

I think I like this solution better than any of the other ones I've seen so far, something that would give you a few seconds to correct your mistake, instead of x amount of inches leeway. It would keep the intention of the rule, without being so strict.