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Re: Impeding in Hybrid
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Re: Impeding in Hybrid
What if a team is just beginning to develop their autonomous? If they had something that told the robot to go forwards x amount of feet to cross the first line, but somehow came out as x amount of inches, it might be seen as a "defensive autonomous" when it wasn't. If a robot hit them the first time they tested this and they didn't know it did this, should they be given a yellow card?
If they were, that would really discourage teams from attempting to write and autonomous mode in the middle of a regional. Writing code halfway through Friday is a time honored tradition, and I'd hate to see it go away. :rolleyes: The point being, until you see the team do this multiple times in a row, don't assume anything. |
Re: Impeding in Hybrid
It sounds like there may be some confusion about what actually constitutes an impeding penalty. Please, before complaining any more about this, reread <G40>, and then review a few videos on TBA.
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They simple say strategies designed to block traffic will not be permitted. In my opinion, this has no relevance whatsoever to <G40> furthermore <G40> applies only to teleoperated mode, not hybrid. They do specifically mention that "The purpose of these modifications is not to permit the intentional blocking of the Track during Hybrid Period.", after saying that <G40> does not apply. |
Re: Impeding in Hybrid
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Re: Impeding in Hybrid
I don't think there will be any rule change about the blocking in autonomous. It's kind of obvious when people are doing it on purpose and when they arent, but I just don't think there will be any kind of rule against this.
However, to deal with blocking robots, 1024 is possibly going to hand shifter control over to RALFF (our autonomous driver). In this case, if an obstruction is detected by the forward ultrasonic sensor array, our robot would gently (2 ft/sec) approach a robot which 'accidentally' got in the way, shift in to low gear, and push whatever is in the way out of the way with our 299lb pushing force (sustainable about 5 seconds at this 299lb level). As usual, as soon as the traffic is cleared, the robot will continue on it's usual course. If for some reason the robot does not slide away from the front of our robot, ours would continue to push the robot at the 2ft/sec speed until the end of the hybrid period. The thought of doing something like that never occurred even as a thought to our programming team until a certain 'explosive' robot continually blocked our autonomous. Don't take that as me complaining, I understand there is no rule that says you can't, and opposing robots have the same right to win as their opposition does. See you all at Boilermaker! -q EDIT: While the drivetrain can produce 299lbf, I'm not 100% sure what exactly the tires can put to the floor. This has never been tested. Nope, we don't have any supersticky materials or anything. |
Re: Impeding in Hybrid
I am of the firm belief that if impeding is allowed then high speed (autonomous) ramming should also be allowed. The IR is simply to flakey to ensure consistent commands and it would take an amazing team to program a robot which reliably avoids other robots. If impeding is allowed and ramming is not allowed autonomous will be limited to two line crosses and one trackball down for fear of penalties. The two rules go hand in hand--either both should be allowed or neither should be allowed.
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Really, even though it doesn't make me happy when i see our robot defensive autonomoused (it's so much fun to watch when it isn't!) by the way the rules lie right now, it can happen. So, instead of begging for a rule change, we'll hope for one, but as with most things in engineering, there's almost always another way to solve a problem. (i.e. what I mentioned above). -q |
Re: Impeding in Hybrid
I like your above solution to the problem and as we have a spare ultrasonic it might be worth a try.
A note to the person who said such a pushing force was impossible I don't believe that it is. http://www.engineershandbook.com/Tab...efficients.htm lists the coefficient of friction of rubber on solids as being 1-4. That is for a smooth rubber strip on a smooth solid. A coefficient of friction of 2 on carpet is highly possible. |
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Attaching the negatively-connotated words "shady" and "blatant" to any hybrid blocking strategy is going a bit far. NO alliance is OBLIGATED to give ANY team a huge advantage in hybrid just because their robot is "cool" and can cross 48,000 lines in auton. Blocking in hybrid is a smart, effective, legal (??....sigh), and SIMPLE strategy. I do believe you should only employ one bot for this effort (1504 did it expertly), as blocking the entire lane seems to bring the bump to pass rule into question. If there's a lane for the oncoming robots to move around the blocking robot, they have no beef. There is nothing wrong with simple - I feel people tend to glorify the complex and put it up on a pedestal a bit too emphatically sometimes, at the expense of the more "boring" strategies. There is a place for both in FIRST. And if the uber-hybrid bots don't like being blocked, they are welcome to use their programming expertise to add some collision avoidance code and move around the obstacle. Use it as an opportunity to "wow" people even more with your adept engineering skillz. Qbranch and 1024 already outlined a constructive way to respond to this new challenge with additional strategic programming. I see this as yet another instance of "raising the bar". Quite literally getting a "free pass" does not accomplish this objective nearly as effectively. DARPA Grand Challenge planners don't dilute the accomplishments of event participants by telling big rocks and obstacles to get out of the way of an oncoming autonomous vehicle (there's a funny thought). It's fairly safe to say we are amazed at the way that event "raises the bar" - why can FIRST not employ and permit similar tactics in their challenge design - the addition of defense simply adds "unexpected" disturbances for which robots must compensate. |
Re: Impeding in Hybrid
Ah I made the mistake of not actually viewing their robot before posting. As IFI wheels have a coefficient of friction of 1.2-1.3 their pushing power may be lower than the posted figure. However teams have also designed their robots in creative ways such that when pushed from the front a fraction of the force is transmitted to their rear wheels placing much more weight on them and allowing for stronger pushing. (6 wheel drive with lowered centered wheel can achieve this effect).
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Re: Impeding in Hybrid
Travis I would agree with most of what you are saying however the issue becomes more prominent when the team with the autonomous is penalized for "ramming" a blocking opponent as has happened already. I will stand by my earlier statement that if impeding is allowed then ramming must also be allowed. If a bot chooses to block then it is knowing putting itself into harms way.
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Re: Impeding in Hybrid
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