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Re: Impeding in Hybrid
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And for the second part... we'll see what happens at boilermaker. There is rudimentary recovery code in the robot as of now (you can tell in the multiple times our robot weaved through traffic), but I'm hoping that our drivetrain people will be ok with us adding the autoshifting code in to push whatever is in the way out of the way. If you all didn't read the edit on my post about 299lbf pushing, I do not know exactly how much pushing force we can put to the floor. All that is is the maximum 5-second-sustainable force at the tire. Also, I know that 1114 and us (1024) have fast autonomous modes, but who else does? -q |
Re: Impeding in Hybrid
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Re: Impeding in Hybrid
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The short actually occurred within an ultrasonic sensor, thankfully, that's on the front of the robot. -q p.s. Wish you could have seen the smoke swirling under our cover panel before we turned it off... all the victor fans were blowing the smoke around making these awesome swirly vortexy thingies... |
Re: Impeding in Hybrid
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For example, and I love examples: Team A might not have any mentors who know anything about code and are relying entirely on one self taught student who hasn't been able to touch the robot because it was still being built all season. They don't have many resources, especially no big sponsors who can machine things for them. Most of their code was tested on Thursday and they are still working out the kinks. Team B has many mentors. They've been around for a little while and know all about what makes FIRST tick. They've got a couple of decent sponsors, and even have their own practice field and practice robot. They've been able to work on the code all build season and beyond. Their hybrid mode has been tested time and again, so they are able to lend a hand to Team A. Should these two teams be judged the same? One of them has the resources, the other doesn't. This isn't a case of failure to prepare and consequences for something that you cannot change is unfair. You can hold up a bar yes, but every year FIRST has rookie teams who don't have the same advantage as the rest of us. Some veteran teams don't even have some of the resources that the rookies do. FIRST is so diverse that no one standard can encompass everyone. |
Re: Impeding in Hybrid
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To continue, I should also point out that teams who block typically do so by moving to the same spot every time. It would not take too much for the "elite" teams to add code which adjusted how far they drove straight before turning left, effectively avoiding the obstacle. Of course then, that would be countered by oscillating defensive autons or perhaps even defensive modes which detect oncoming robots and adjust position accordingly. Sounds pretty cool to me. If we all just got out of the way (or were forced to do so per the rules) and let the best of the best do their thing without resistance, they wouldn't be challenged to push the envelope and create "the next great thing". I appreciate complex bots that can do amazing things on a field by themselves. But I truly am amazed by those bots who can do the same under defensive pressure. This IS a robotic sport, is it not? I think the only people who enjoy watching the New England Patriots wax the dregs of the NFL with overwhelming offensive firepower are PATRIOTS fans. On the other hand, I believe EVERYONE, including casual observers, enjoys watching closely-contested battles such as those between the Giants and Pats this past season, where strong offense and defense were on display. Now I gotta be honest, the level of intra-quadrant bumper zone D and "impeding" at Midwest this weekend seemed to go beyond my original interpretation of the game rules' intent (which, of course, counts for squat). We contributed to this. However, that's the way the referees called it, and it's their interpretation that ultimately sets the tone. Now, as a spectator, I enjoyed watching these matchups greatly. Watching the defensive alliance strategies set in motion and the resultant response to such pressure by the skilled drivers of the best offensive bots at Midwest made the scores that much closer and the spectacle so much more interesting. And, oh by the way, with all the blocking/defense being played at the event, can anyone tell me who still came out on top at Midwest, when it was all said and done? If, in the journey to that victory, the matches were closer and the losing teams felt like they kept the victors honest, is that such a bad thing? Congrats to 1114 and 1024 for persevering with their fine machines and even better drive teams and pit crews. With very few alterations, I hope the way the game was played at Midwest is permitted to continue throughout the remainder of the season. |
Re: Impeding in Hybrid
We had a discussion with the head ref in Midwest concerning this very topic, due to the alliance we were up against (the 1114/1024 dream team who eventually won) we asked if we could intentionally stop a robot in an area with the intention to block an opponent's hybrid operation. Per him, this would be fine if there was a passing lane around the blocking 'bot (ie, we couldn't line all three of our alliance up to completely block the corner). So, in the nxt match, we prompty sent a partner out 3' and stopped, which seemed great until 1024 ran him over and continued on its way! :(
My .02! |
Re: Impeding in Hybrid
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Re: Impeding in Hybrid
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However, due to a ruling at GSR that our dual-configuration drive base robot was not legal, our "speed racer" configuration only participated in practice matches. (We used the "hurdling" configuration during the elimination rounds instead -- the hurdling configuration only crossed 3 lines.) |
Re: Impeding in Hybrid
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On January - 5 of this year every team was given the same opportunity. What they did with it was up to them. Should the rules be applied differently based on the ability to follow them? Should a team be allowed to go over the weight limit because they had no way to weigh their robot? I don’t think so. The failure to prepare in your scenario could have included the failure to test in the designated practice area. They could have chosen to try it out first. They may have chosen instead to just put it on the floor in a match and make their problem a problem for everyone else. Not one team goes out there looking to get penalties. Should FIRST conclude that, due to lack of intent, no rule will be enforced? What we need here is a clear ruling on the matter; one without any mention of intent. IMO, if you block that far turn for any reason, you are not playing the game the way it was designed to be played. Imagine what would happen to NASCAR if they allowed roadblocks. // OAO |
Re: Impeding in Hybrid
Please stop using the word "Impeding" when talking about a single robot. Just stop it!
When 1 robot stops anywhere on the track and does not extend to make themselves bigger, it is not impeding! Therefore, they cannot be breaking the impeding rule. I would agree that they are impeding and a rule is being broken if 2 or more robots formed a line across the field. So, a single robot can "block" part of the field. "Blocking" is the right word to use! And that is completely legal. Qbranch (aka Alex) has it right. I am sure that they and 1114 will come up with a way to go around the blocking robot where there is room to do so. Or they can choose to push them slowly out of the way as he said. |
Re: Impeding in Hybrid
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The definition of impeding you are refering to, <G40> only applies during teleoperated mode. The real definition of impeding is Quote:
Here is a quote from the Q&A Quote:
Oh yeah, Raul, sorry your son beat you in the finals. I guess he has the bragging rights for a while.:D Joey |
Re: Impeding in Hybrid
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Re: Impeding in Hybrid
i lol'ed soo hard watching the simulcasts online, and this rule. hahaha wow, it was great. I couldnt stand watching teams lose because of this...
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Re: Impeding in Hybrid
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What happened in those matches was illegal no ifs ands or buts about it, There is absolutely 0 question in my mind or any one of those involved minds that what they did was illegal. Should it be legal I guess that could be a question, but why they heck are you guys trying to defend yourselves. Those specific teams, and you know who you are, should have been disqualified on the 2nd offense. I understand you may have asked the refs and they just didn't know I gave those teams a pass yesterday. But now that you do know its illegal just flipping apologize, and get on with it. I'm not upset with the teams for doing it especially because you got clarification, but I'm set with you guys coming on to these forums, reading the rules and still trying to defend yourselves, your flat out WRONG. What ticks me off even more is I thought FIRST was taking great lengths to train their refs properly, this should have been addressed as it is such an obvious strategies. Teams would try to block other teams, and its stupid to think there wouldn't be someone who tried it. I've gone to great measures to defend refs in previous posts, but something so blatantly missed in a dozen or so matches really gets my blood boiling. I hope this problem is rectified before next week, week 1 always finds many problems, and this is surely one of the bigger ones. Ohh and for those of you saying " You have to figure out there intent " thats absolute bull crap. If a team crosses a line or trys to every single match they compete in, and then all of a sudden " Whoops I guess my autonomous doesn't work it only went out 3 feet and it happens to get in the way of 1114 and 1024.. Oh whatever am I going to do..." Give me a break, you broke a rule, you didn't get caught, you may have asked for clarifications and the refs were blatantly wrong, stop with the excuses, say your sorry. |
Re: Impeding in Hybrid
I feel no need to apologize for strategically using what we confirmed with the refs was how the rules were. The fact that these refs were wrong is IN NO WAY OUR FAULT. I completely agree, they were incorrect, but it would be wrong to blame us, heck apparently the other teams didn't even realize it was actually illegal.
Just calm down everybody, nobody did anything with any ill intent, we were simply competing in the way to give us the best chance inside our understanding of the rules. |
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