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-   -   Intentionally blocking traffic in Hybrid (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65301)

Karthik 02-03-2008 20:30

Re: Impeding in Hybrid
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Raul (Post 710976)
I am sure that they and 1114 will come up with a way to go around the blocking robot where there is room to do so. Or they can choose to push them slowly out of the way as he said.

Already working on it. :p

Just to make something clear, 1114 is in no way upset at any team who tried to block us in hybrid mode. These teams were making the strategically smart decision, and we would have done the same thing if the roles were reversed. We don't expect teams to sit by and let us score points. We went through this in 2006 in autonomous mode, and as we did then, we're going to make every effort to adapt.

Alan Anderson 02-03-2008 20:36

Re: Impeding in Hybrid
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Laaba 80 (Post 711360)
Quote:

Originally Posted by 2008 Game Manual
IMPEDING: Preventing or obstructing an opposing ROBOT’S ability to proceed around the TRACK in the direction of traffic.

With that definition, I think 1 robot driving out to block the flow of traffic is considered impeding, dont you?

I don't think so. One stationary robot cannot prevent an opponent from proceeding around the track. It can get in the opponent's way, but as long as it leaves room for the opponent to pass, traffic is not obstructed.

Qbranch 02-03-2008 21:14

Re: Impeding in Hybrid
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Karthik (Post 711407)
Already working on it. :p

Just to make something clear, 1114 is in no way upset at any team who tried to block us in hybrid mode. These teams were making the strategically smart decision, and we would have done the same thing if the roles were reversed. We don't expect teams to sit by and let us score points. We went through this in 2006 in autonomous mode, and as we did then, we're going to make every effort to adapt.

We share your sentiments 1114 (who is, by the way, awesome! :D ).

1024 is developing multiple strategies, ranging from brute-force to elegant. We'll put them all in the robot and toggle-switch-select them at match time.

See you in atlanta, simbotics!

Everybody else: see you in Boilermaker!

-q

jason_zielke 02-03-2008 21:16

Re: Impeding in Hybrid
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Karthik (Post 711407)
Just to make something clear, 1114 is in no way upset at any team who tried to block us in hybrid mode. These teams were making the strategically smart decision, and we would have done the same thing if the roles were reversed. We don't expect teams to sit by and let us score points. We went through this in 2006 in autonomous mode, and as we did then, we're going to make every effort to adapt.

I was going to say almost the exact same thing. 1024 feels the same way.

This challenge translate well into most engineers daily lives as well. Our customers do not just accept what we give them and change thier needs ("rules") to make it easy for us to do our job. Nor does the competition step out of the way to allow us to be the market leader.

It is only by challenging each other do we all grow smarter together. It is only when you are challenged that you can find your flaws and be motivied to fix them.

I think this year's hybrid mode is outstanding. There are so many options for teams work together, complement each other and adapt to the competition. It allows for a lot of creativity and a wide range of unqiue solutions in software, very much like we have had for years related to the mechanical and electrical design of the robots.

martschr 02-03-2008 21:53

Re: Impeding in Hybrid
 
First off let me say that I'm glad you are not mad at us. Next let me say that a strategy that was thrown out was to make a wall that would block the way needless to say we did not do this because we took the rules into consideration. We made sure that a path would be available so we would not be obstructing traffic. This same thing happens every year. We have been blocked in auto many times in previous years. This is a valid strategy that we decided to use, and it paid off. We won the first match that we played against the alliance of 1114 and 1024, but lost the next two. One difference in this year and previous years when it was allowed is that this year everyone can control their robot using their hybrid controls allowing them the chance to adapt and go around any robots in their way. If they were to make a rule against doing this then we would not do it again, although I think that they will not and should not do this. That being said I would like to say we lost to a great alliance and the entire team agrees with me in saying that we enjoyed the hard fought matches.

Derek Bessette 02-03-2008 22:40

Re: Impeding in Hybrid
 
First off I would like to congratulate the referees at the Midwest regional on a job well done. Their job this year is difficult to say the least. Their interpretations of the rules were communicated very well at the driver’s meetings. It was always known how they intended to call things.

My understanding of “impeding” has changed after week one. The key part of <G40> that I did not fully understand is the following:
Quote:

Note that a ROBOT is not IMPEDING traffic if:
- there is a clear “passing lane” around the ROBOT
This part of the rule seems pretty clear. There can be no impeding call if there is an open lane. The big question is what defines an open lane. If I stretch my robot out so it is 60” wide then one robot could be called for impeding if they drove out 4 ft and stopped.

In the case of the elimination rounds at the Midwest regional, the closest any robot could have been to impeding would have been team 16. With there flop down style there robot was close to 5ft long when in it’s playing configuration. With 13.5ft between the wall and the lane divider there would be 51 inches on either side of them, worst case. Our measly 34” wide robot had a lot of room to get around. The way the rulebook is written the lack of impeding calls in hybrid mode was justified.

My feeling on the subject is that one robot should generally not be called for impeding in hybrid. The only case I feel should be called is if the robot is continually moving back a forth to block all lanes. I also believe that two robots that work together to block traffic should generally be called for impeding, even if one of the robots has not moved in hybrid mode. A 44 inch robot on the wall with another robot pulled out 7 feet could create a condition where there is not adequate room to pass.

As for the question of ramming, if a team is purposely putting their robot in harms way then there should be no ramming call on the opposing alliance.

rich vogel 02-03-2008 23:40

Re: Impeding in Hybrid
 
I enjoyed watching 1114's high speed autonomous runs, but safety should be paramount. A safer, more easily refereed approach than the yellow flag treatment that 1114 received would be the imposition of a speed limit, but I doubt that 1114 is lobbying for that;) . I believe that another robot at MWR was penalized for a high speed autonomous collision that knocked down 111's operator controls, so 1114 does not appear to have been singled out for this policy at MWR.

Laaba 80 03-03-2008 17:50

Re: Intentionally blocking traffic in Hybrid
 
Ok, I need to say this again. As of now there is no such thing as IMPEDING in hybrid. People bring up rule <G40> and are saying that what they have seen in hybrid is not impeding. Unless they make an update about it, <G40> means nothing in hybrid mode. The only thing said in the Q&A is about blocking, not impeding. I do feel that driving out and stopping is blocking traffic.
Alan, I agree with you that 1 robot isnt preventing access around the track, however I feel it is obstructing. Obstructing in my opinion doesnt mean no access, it just means that there is something it the way.
I dont care which way this goes, but people have so many different opinions on what this means, it needs to be clarified.
Joey

Kevin Sevcik 03-03-2008 19:10

Re: Impeding in Hybrid
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rich vogel (Post 711560)
I enjoyed watching 1114's high speed autonomous runs, but safety should be paramount. A safer, more easily refereed approach than the yellow flag treatment that 1114 received would be the imposition of a speed limit, but I doubt that 1114 is lobbying for that;) . I believe that another robot at MWR was penalized for a high speed autonomous collision that knocked down 111's operator controls, so 1114 does not appear to have been singled out for this policy at MWR.

Did someone say restrictor plates?

But seriously. In response to those that think moving 3 feet and stopping is illegally blocking traffic... What if the team instead was constantly driving forward at a slow rate? The Sim-o-byte robot would still be moving in the direction of traffic, albeit slowly. What if a team is attempting to remove a ball when they're hit? What if they're attempting to remove a ball but have ended up in the wrong place? What if they get hit by the dreaded 8.2V bug? What if they just set up the wrong auto mode? Do we really want to require teams to fill out sworn affidavits and submit to polygraphs to decide if they're getting a 10-pointer?

T3_1565 03-03-2008 19:25

Re: Impeding in Hybrid
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik (Post 712054)
Did someone say restrictor plates?

But seriously. In response to those that think moving 3 feet and stopping is illegally blocking traffic... What if the team instead was constantly driving forward at a slow rate? The Sim-o-byte robot would still be moving in the direction of traffic, albeit slowly. What if a team is attempting to remove a ball when they're hit? What if they're attempting to remove a ball but have ended up in the wrong place? What if they get hit by the dreaded 8.2V bug? What if they just set up the wrong auto mode? Do we really want to require teams to fill out sworn affidavits and submit to polygraphs to decide if they're getting a 10-pointer?

Thank you!

The problem is if you want an impeding penalty, then those robots trying to knock off balls get it, those robots who cross one line a stop get it, those robots whos auto mode doesn't work right, or misses there trackball with vision or whatever, all get penalized as well.

I for one think its fine to block, learn to get around it, there is plenty more space on the track to drive!

AdamHeard 03-03-2008 19:26

Re: Impeding in Hybrid
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik (Post 712054)
Did someone say restrictor plates?

But seriously. In response to those that think moving 3 feet and stopping is illegally blocking traffic... What if the team instead was constantly driving forward at a slow rate? The Sim-o-byte robot would still be moving in the direction of traffic, albeit slowly. What if a team is attempting to remove a ball when they're hit? What if they're attempting to remove a ball but have ended up in the wrong place? What if they get hit by the dreaded 8.2V bug? What if they just set up the wrong auto mode? Do we really want to require teams to fill out sworn affidavits and submit to polygraphs to decide if they're getting a 10-pointer?

In an ambiguous case, no penalty.

When it is as blatant as some of the cases I saw this weekend, It should be a penalty and yellow; A yellow should be assessed as I see teams taking the 10 pt penalty to prevent the other alliance from scoring 10+ points.

Paul Copioli 03-03-2008 19:37

Re: Intentionally blocking traffic in Hybrid
 
Adam,

Please prove that it is actually the rule, using only the manual and official updates as your sources. In no way, shape, or form do the Q & A supercede the rules or updates. If a clarification in the Q & A warrant an update, then the official updates are released.

-PAul

adman 03-03-2008 19:46

Re: Intentionally blocking traffic in Hybrid
 
First of all thanks to 1114 for being a great alliance partner and they did a
great job helping 2014 to get ready for the finals. See you in Atlanta!

I have been mentoring at 1024 for 3 years now in Software. The 2006
Shooterbot became notorious for scoring points. After a while we would
have blocking robots coming after us. We countered with variable delays.

Its a game! Play it well and win. 1114 and 1024 got a chance to show how
to lap the field. The Gyro Code is posted on Kevins site at NASA/JPL. He is
a great guy and wants to help everyone have autonomous. QBranch always
helps anyone that asks. GP is all about this.

Now the first week has been played we all know what to expect. As fast
as we were packing the crate we were figuring out how to thwart the
deadly CAD ( Corner Autonomous Defense).

Heck if our Gyro breaks you better believe we would consider it too.

P.S. 1024 now is very skilled at getting smoke back into the Robot!

AdamHeard 03-03-2008 19:58

Re: Intentionally blocking traffic in Hybrid
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Copioli (Post 712071)
Adam,

Please prove that it is actually the rule, using only the manual and official updates as your sources. In no way, shape, or form do the Q & A supercede the rules or updates. If a clarification in the Q & A warrant an update, then the official updates are released.

-PAul

That's why I'm confused, Because people I respect are both telling me it is now enforceable because it is in QnA and doesn't contradict manual, but others (such as yourself) are telling me it isn't because it hasn't been added to the manual.

What is more confusing is the QnA provides no ambiguity to the intent, making you think they would add it soon after; but they have not.

At this point, I am fine with it being legal or illegal; just give me a firm answer. For now, I'm assuming 100% legal because it is not in manual, but the wording of that QnA is bothering me.

Jimmy Cao 03-03-2008 22:39

Re: Intentionally blocking traffic in Hybrid
 
Upon further concideration and reading, I think that teams should be permitted to block in autonomous, but by doing so, they forfeit protection from the high-speed ram rule. I mean, they know they are going to block a robot from lapping, and it's expected that they'll get nailed. If teams cannot take the blow, then dont drive forward 3 feet >.>


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