Competition Professionalism
 

FIRST regional events have come to the point where I would second guess inviting in a new corporate sponsor to view the competition.
Take of it what you will. This is how I feel, I am curious if others share my sentiment.

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

Can you clarify what you're talking about? Is there some sort of explicit dancing going on at your event, or are you concerned that a corporate representative might be offended by the sight of children (and sometimes adults!) having fun?

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

Sorry dude, I like the line dancing part of the competition, one it's a time killer and a chance for MAJOR repairs to be made not only to an on field competing team during elims but also to the field as well and or to catch back up w/ time if we should run the even a bit faster then normal.

I feel it's ok, if anything it should be made safer b/c of the field structure and robots that are nearby and all but that about it.

I don't see an issue. It allows for everyone to have fun, to help calm down the teams.

I would want to show a new potential coporate sponsor that kids and adults can have fun that competition is based on learning new things but also has a mixture of funness.

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

Just remember, the competition is not about corporate sponsors. Yes, they help, but the competition is not all about them. You've got a lot of high schoolers too.

The competition is not all about the students either. Dave said something about that a while ago (I think the last time the mentor/student debate came up, or the time before that).

The competition is about the teams. Corporate sponsors, high school students, engineers, administrators, parents, and mentors all have their place. The hardest part is balancing all the elements.

Sometimes, the best attractant for a sponsor/mentor is that they can feel young again. That said, the same thing can also be a repellent.

I don't know here. I have mixed feelings.

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

I am using the corporate sponsor example much like a 'bar' that should be at par with our 'professional' actions.
I am not against having a good time, I just don't feel that a dance marathon in a professional setting is appropriate.
Yes, it is a huge time killer, which I see as a very large problem. I have seen one too many a time out get extend well beyond any reasonable sanctioned length because of dances going on.

I guess when it really comes down to it, the thing that frustrates me most is when a high schooler is excited about a robotics competition coming up... WHY are they excited?

For me, it sure as anything was the robots and competition.

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

I don't see the line danceing as anything different than cheerlearers at a football game.

These regionals are supposed to be an 'event' ... and I see no problems with young people (and some of us old farts) having fun.

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

I agree with you that is not appropriate for a professional setting..... The thing is that we arent a professional setting. FIRST is like nothing else around, we have serious competition, while still having fun. Teams arent professional, remember most are a high school club. Do you think a high school football game is a professional setting?

Why does it matter?? FIRST isn't all about the robots. Competitions are a chance for you to show off all of what you accomplished. It is also about meeting new people and having fun, while still being respectful.

If you took away all the dancing and other things, it will just make the competition boreing, and people wont look forward to them.


I am guessing that you are a volunteer for tournaments, and you dont like the dancing because it takes up time and makes you get home later. I'm not sure if this is true, and I dont think that there is anything wrong with that. I volunteered at the FTC tournament in Appleton last week. I had to hand out crystals, and it did get boreing. I dont mind how long it takes though, because its all about the teams participating. I also know as being a part of FLL and FRC since I was in 4th grade that I like that kind of stuff while participating. I understand where you are coming from, and I had this problem when I started volunteering, but I remembered how much fun I had with it. Look at it from a teams perspective, it really will make volunteering at the competition more enjoyable.
Joey

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

I have no problem with the dancing. It does give time for repairs sometimes. And also, first is supposed to be professional, yes. But the dancing that happens at the competitions is just high school students being high school students. It shows a lot of team spirit I think. There is an award for team spirit and a lot of the people who win are the ones who are dancings and doing all those things.

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

I hope we can continue to celebrate FIRST in the manner that we do - inviting everyone to be a part of the celebration and encouraging everyone to have a great time. The competition, the music, the dance lines, the awesome MCs and game announcers, the interactions of the teams, the visiting guests which include VIPs and potential sponsors. I hope these celebrations continue to reflect the increasing impact of the goals of FIRST, the influence of Gracious Professionalism, and the affect on the lives of everyone involved.

Dancing at FIRST competitions is a great way for everyone to enjoy the event. If you look at the faces of the judges, they are enjoying being a part of the celebration and fun as much as anyone.

I have never picketed in my life but if we were to stop the chicken dance, I might have to wear a placard that says: save the chicken dance!

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

wheres the fun with out the dancing ..why don't we have halo tournaments instead during the brake between matches LOL

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

Also to add.... if the dancing is so bad why do the juges and refs dance to the YMCA? =)

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

I am a volunteer in the mentor sense. Team #125 and various other teams in the Boston area. I have also been involved since 7th grade lego league.
For this discussion, we can assume that I don't care at what time I get home.
I am lividly afraid that there are kids out there who go to the events and have nothing, and had nothing, to do with the robot. It is only a social event. Where is the inspiration and recognition in that?

Comparing a football game to FIRST is probably a little bit off, like you said FIRST isn't like anything else around.


You are more or less proving my point.

The time for repairs is sanctioned in the game and rules itself. Extensions past that are not provided for in the rules. One 6 minute period is still 6 minutes even if the YMCA may be 7 minutes long.


Jane, I am just as excited as the next guy for robotic competitions. I really fear though that a lot of the students celebrating are doing so in the dark. I don't think that a majority of kids are actually gaining any insight to science and technology. As FIRST continues to grow, we cannot only be focused on the quantitative analysis, but the qualitative effect it has on each and every student.
5 students who gain an engineering education from FIRST is better than 100 who don't learn a thing.

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

Oh.
Maybe we are not on the same page to begin with. What you are expressing in this quote that I've included in my post is the impact of science and technology on the students. The effect of the FIRST experience on them. If I have this wrong, correct me.

To me, the competitions are the culmination of the build experience of the team. Yes, there are people who drop by an outreach event and a competition and they are inspired by the robots/the competition. But the teams are made up of team members who have worked together to create the robot and prepare it for the competition. Therein lies a big part of the inspiration, the impact of the experience on the students and where they will take that experience in their careers.

I can honestly see a thread started to address your concerns about the FIRST effect on students. I see that as a different topic than the celebration and dancing at a FIRST Robotics competition.

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

I do agree with there, but what can you do about kids who dont get involved. On our team, members can be a part of whatever group they want to be. It is all ready for them, there are more experienced students and mentors there to teach them, all they need to do is commit to doing it. The problem is that many don't. This is disappointing, however it is not all bad. Not all members on our team do things with the robot. We have some members wo work on PR, award submissions, and Special projects. We also have 1 student who is a rookie this year, and is fully commited and interested in the robot, however he lives 30+ minutes away, so he cant come as often as some. I'm sure however that there are just some kids who are just along for the ride, and like the competitions. My rookie year I was a programmer and I only went in about 2-3 days a week. The competitions were fun, however the next years will be even better. The last two years I have been going in alot, this year I have been there every day except for 2 or 3 because I had to go to band. It really is more fun when you contribute more because you see something succeding that YOU worked on, it feels good. I agree with you here, however I dont this this applys to the dancing very much. People still enjoy the matches, it is just like watching a sporting event, the dancing is just a fill in.
Joey

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

I think that a lot of FIRST is having fun. If we have to stand rigidly through the entire thing, where's the fun? Sure, there's work, but there has to be some fun in it, too!

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

Like said above, FIRST is serious competition while having fun. That is why Woodie says that "It will be the hardest fun you will ever have."

That pretty much says it all.:cool:

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

All these teams have been working feverishly for 6 weeks, and this is the final culmination of all that work. Sounds like the perfect dancing situation. Even engineers at major companies celebrate together after a successful project.

Also regionals might be the only time some of us ever get to dance without being laughed at!

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

You are helping me focus my point as I go along. I understand that some kids down there dancing do gain great things from this awesome program. I am afraid however that FIRST is or soon may be on a slippery down hill slope to massive recruitment efforts with no technical experience provided. FIRST will move away from the robot and competition aspect and become a hang out club for many high schoolers.



Ultimately:
I love to cheer for the matches. More professionalism can easily be attained while still have a ton of fun. I just see the on field mass group dancing as a side effect to a potential falling off of technically oriented students. Yes there are many facets to a team that are not technically oriented, it is a necessity. I am worried about the students who "fall through the cracks" if you will and are not involved in any way.

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

I'm not really sure where to start here as I don't think I agree with a single word of this post.

I guess I'll start at the top and work my way down.

Instead of retyping things I have already written I will refer you over to a recent post I made in another thread . I think this thread also provides some pretty good insight about how difficult it is to get people to come if they have no interest and what happens when people that think they have a vague interest come and experience FIRST.

In some ways comparing sports to FIRST is valid and in others it is not. In this case I think there is at least some validity in the comparison. Many high school sports programs are supported through advertisement by corporations at stadiums and arenas.

A random post with a ridiculous suggestion from a poster with negative rep (yes I know they are just dots). Is this really what you want to associate your argument with? I would much rather have my grandma see me dance than have her see me play Halo. As far as I'm aware my dancing has not been rated "M for Mature".


First of all, until someone can tell me that they are absolutely sure that a timeout has been extended (with the team working on their robot during the "extension") I don't think this is an issue. Even if it were an issue there is an easy fix, make the robots be on the field and the teams off it right at the six minutes. Then the drive teams can get in on the dancing if they want! Yes this would potentially allow for more than 6 min. for strategizing during a timeout, but I don't think I have ever seen a team call a timeout to strategize.

The quantitative analysis says that FIRSTers are more likely to go to college and more likely to major in science or engineering than non-FIRSTers. The qualitative stories are all around you, Chief Delphi is full of them, I read them all the time and each one inspires and encourages me as well.

FIRST is about "gracious professionalism", behaving like your grandma is watching. That is not the same thing as being "professional" which means wearing a tie and usually not having much fun.

I think one of the most powerful things you can show a sponsor is kids excited to be working with robots. So how do you show them this? Kids usually don't look excited when they are actually working on the robots, many of them look downright concerned, especially at competitions. One of the best ways I can think of to show sponsors that kids are excited about robots is to show them that kids are excited at a robotics competition.

I had some teammates (I'm included here too) that danced along with a number of songs at our regional including the YMCA. I had personally seen these same students (again myself included) totally ignore the entire song at a school dance. So what was the difference between the dance and the FRC competition, we were excited.

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

And now we have a clear view into the importance of the speeches of Dr. Woodie Flowers, Dean Kamen, and the wise Dave Lavery at the 2008 Kick Off. Teams should welcome and encourage engineers to be active mentors and contributors to the team efforts. All teams. If teams are short on engineer support, then set that as a short term and long term goal, continuing to fuel the fires of inspiration.

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

The way I see a regional competition as a celebration of all of our hard work. It's a big party with excitement, competition, cooperation, and prizes. Thousands of individuals commit an enormous amount of time and energy into getting everyone to perform the same task (in different ways), and we learn from each other and take so much from the program.

Dancing together is another way to celebrate as a group, and I think it's something that should be encouraged because it helps bring people together, and that's a large part of FIRST's mission. Hearing the word "professional" in this context makes me think of sitting in a cold business office all day behind a cubicle wall -- and I just don't feel that FIRST is about that.

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

Oh The NERDMANITY!

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

I agree with you, however what can FIRST do about it? If they take the fun aspects out of it, many of the kids who gain things wouldnt stay in it. I know if I wasnt having fun with it, I wouldnt have been in it since I was 8. I feel that it is up to the teams themselves to make sure each student gets good experience. I dont think FIRST can do anything about it because there are just too many kids they would need to take care of, they just need to keep up a fun environment. It is much more realistic for a team to make sure kids learn something, because they only need to take care of around 20-30 kids, as opposed to FIRST trying to talk with 10,000+ kids. I think FIRST has done everything they can. They are getting major coorporations to provide professionals to teach students. Where else can you find that?? Everything is set up for the students to succeed. If they dont take advantage of this opportunity, it is their own fault.
Joey

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

And I dont see how dancing relates to them not being interested in the goals FIRST is trying to set. They may be involved in the build but when it comes to the competition they may not be involved. And sometimes the ones who dance the most also help with the robots. Example: I told my friend to be in the mascot area today for our first match where she had been dancing the whole time. And her response to me was I will be there if it doesnt interfere with my pit shift. The dancing at competitions is a way to relieve the stress from the six week build season.

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

Ok, I'm going to explain my FIRST - High School Football comparison because I dont think people know where I am coming from. When it comes down to it, most FIRST teams are a school club, such as a football team. People in both areas come to watch the games, because it is fun times. There is dancing in both between the action, with FIRST everything we are talking about, and with football cheerleaders and mascots. Are all people at both events involved with the team(or roobot) playing? no. However those who are enjoy it so much more. When I was in middle school I played football. I would go to our high school games, and I couldnt wait to become a part of that, and I loved going to them. Once I got into High School though, I found out that the football team has practice every day and to pplay on varsity, you need to be in the weight room 5 days a week, year round. I decided not to join, because for the amount of commitment needed, I didnot like playing enough. Many FIRSTers feel this too because it is a huge commitment. Others just have absolutely no idea, which as I said earlier, I think is the teams job to get them interested.
Joey

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

"Oh The NERDMANITY!" I love it!

I think comparing corporate professional behavior to FIRST competition behavior does highlight a shortcoming. Conferences and conventions need more dancing! FIRST has it right: celebrate with dance and music! Rejoice with the kids! Those who came just to watch (parents, schoolmates, CEOs) suddenly can (and do) participate WITH the kids. I love it! For 6 or 7 minutes we are all on the same team!

As for delaying the day, it seems the dance is more of a filler for when time is needed on the field or during the pauses during semifinal / final matches. Keeps the crowd busy instead of dead time.

Yup, if there was more dancing during the Democratic / Republican conventions...

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

FIRST isn't a professional atmosphere. I mean there should be limits, but dancing should be fine. Competitions should be social events, it allows you to meet new people from all over the state/country/world.

You know, dancing is fine, and companies should understand they are kids, theres nothing wrong with dancing and having fun and socializing. Professionalism is one thing, being to uptight to relax and have fun is another thing entirely.

Thats my $.02.

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

Ok, I can't stay out of this one. I'm feeling a bit on the lazy side of posting today, so judge it lightly.

FIRST is about professionalism, yes. But it calls for a somewhat different type of professionalism. I agree with N7UJJ actually pointed out something worth noting, that corporations should take a hint from FIRST events. Big merger went through successfully? Celebrate! Dance! Just signed on a big-name customer? Let's go out for some pizza and drinks! I also concur with everybody who said that this is a stress reliever.

Last year, we (964) didn't do so hot, infact our robot barely worked. But you know what, every one of us had fun. We danced the YMCA, talked with other teams, enjoyed watching matches in between our matches, I even did some dancing and playing with kids in our Bearcat mascot suit. After six grueling weeks of designs, failures, testing, redesigning, and building, I think we all deserve to dance if the machine even turns on!

<rant>
Now, tell me, how many of us could have honestly known what a CNC was? Vice grip? PWM cable? Heck, I couldn't identify what a 7/16 ratchet was, let alone figure out how to use it. We've either learned to drill-and-tap, build a site out of CSS, compile a working autonomous mode, cut a piece of PVC with the bandsaw, or animate a video in 3DS that stresses of the importance of safety. Let me tell you a little secret: I'm wasn't doing so hot in school. This is my senior year, and I had some hardships through the local school administration trying to get homeschool credits transferred. I was seriously thinking about dropping out, why would I want to start over in 9th grade when I was supposed to graduate that year? Anyway, before I left the school, I joined the team, not knowing really what I was getting myself into. Had I not joined FIRST I probably wouldn't have given college a second chance. Sure, my mom, people at church, managers at work, all told me that I should go, it just wasn't the same as seeing a bunch of people learning in such an awesome program. When I was younger, I didn't realize it, but my dad had taken me to the Buckeye Regional, I believe it was 2000. Now, you think I would've wanted to join this if I just saw a bunch of people talking, acting, walking like they had sticks up their butts? One of the things that I like when I was there WAS the dancing. And then, I learn that FIRST hands out millions in scholarships?!? It's a no-brainer. Now I'm preparing to enroll at community college as I finish up my final year through an online school. There are literally hundreds of success stories where students who may have not only decided against going to college, but dropped out of HS, joined up, got involved, and gone to higher education facilities.

If it's the right kind, dancing is, and always will, be appropriate, even in "professional" settings. It can't get in the way of "learning" because for the most part, the learning was done starting January 5th and lasted until mid-February. Like mentioned before, it is only a celebration and showcase of what we accomplished. I'm sorry if you feel FIRST isn't the stiff-collered 9-to-5 straight-forward type of setting you're looking for, but I do hope you accept that, while nothing is perfect, it does what it's supposed to do above-and-beyond what the founder's may have meant for it.

"What's so great about this program, that I should give you the use of our workshop, our engineer(s), of $5,000?" That would be my response if you came to me asking for thousands. Obviously Intel, GM, NASA, Ford, Delphi, and SOOO many more companies, corporations, and businesses sponsored the events and teams, and spending thousands of dollars and man-hours must mean that there's some kind of payoff somewhere, and they endorse this "fun-loving free-for-all".
</rant>


So with that being said, invite them. Invite them with pride and excitement. They want to see that these kids are having fun, enjoying the new robots they worked so hard to build, to learn about.

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

I'm going to take the original question and ignore all the other posts. I believe a corporate sponsor would love to see something he/she is supporting as fun and worthy. Say I was a big sponsor, Ryan Co., and Team Fusion asked me to support them and go to competition with them. At competition, all Team Fusion did was sit and watch a match, no cheering, no excitement, no dancing, it is just about the robot, Chairmans, 3D Max, and website. I would have to ask myself, "Why am I paying for something that these students don't enjoy?" I would probably not support the team again.

Now on the contrary. I support Team Fusion; Fusion brings me to competition; I see the kids having fun and I see everything that they do. I would most likely support them next year, and possibly get more involved.

Keep in mind one of the awards given, the Spirit Award.

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

What happens at the competition reflects very little of what happens inside of the robotics room. The competition is 2 days out of an entire year that you cannot see.
Your point is that having the competition as a social event is a bad thing because... dancing doesnt promote engineering or science (unless you want to get into the physics and chemical influences that cause dancing to occur, but thats beyond the scope of this thread)
The thing is though, some of the most engineering-inspired students on the team look forward to the competitions because the whole point of it is having fun. Like any competition, the point is to win, and if you lose you still had fun trying. Not every student who is at the competition can be serious- even if they want to- because there isn't enough room in the pits, or there are already too many people on the field or whatever.
think about it. if they give a SPIRIT AWARD out at the competitions, wouldn't you think the people at FIRST are promoting the idea of dancing you drop?

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

At the Wisconsin Regional last year, some of our sponsors were dancing......not the kids...........

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

I think a lot of people are assuming a fair bit of information... I will try to correct and bring this up to speed.
I am a fan of cheering, a bigger fan of having a good time. Cheer your brains out, 222 '03 National Team Spirit; trust me I know what getting excited and motivated is.
Apart from that, the competition has been hindered by the dancing. You say "why not?" I say "to keep the integrity of the game play together." Time to cool down a robot between back to back matches is provided for, as are timeouts. Having a good time can go too far sometimes. Without crossing the 'office dull' line I still think dancing is far too unprofessional for the regionals. Cheer and go crazy from the stands don't bring it to the field.
As the thread has moved along, I have honed my initial statement and question. My view of the dancing that occurs has always been the stereotypical 'kid who doesn't do things' kind of view. Please don't jump on me for what I just said, I am well aware that there are kids who enjoy themselves in such a manner that have a wide range of of roles on a team. When the hard facts come down to it, there are some kids who don't have a function on a team and are just at the events to hang out. I have seen it myself, nothing will sway my opinion on this. I am not in any way giving a magnitude to it, but it exists.

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

As already stated, what exactly are you talking about.

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

A regional is a celebration of the hard work and effort that has gone on during the build season and dancing is appropriate at celebrations.

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

You said yourself that you would trade 5 inspired students for 100 uninspired ones right? I would submit that many more student are inspired by the energy and excitement at a competition (the dancing is definitely part of the overall atmosphere), than are turned off by it (poll results seem to agree with me).

Despite you saying nothing will sway your opinion I will trek on anyway. I am very curious as to what the role of a PR member of a team is at a competition? How about a finance team member? Animation? I know a few members of my team (different members than the last post) that I'm sure you definitely would have pegged as "just socializing" if you saw them at our regional last year. You wanna know why? Because they were. These were members of our PR team that spent a weekend handing out buttons and "hanging out".

While these girls had worked on our t-shirts and buttons for the competition they hadn't been at our build site for more than about 4 hours in the whole six weeks. So these girls just came along for the ride and are the uninspired socializers you talked about right? Wrong. Two of the three are on the team again, and this year they're more involved. They still haven't touched the robot, but they showed up at our initial brainstorm/strategy meets, made our PR a bigger deal than last year and had a lot more respect for the robot and the guys and girls working on it than they did the year before. So did we inspire them to become engineers? Nope, but I'm fairly certain we accomplished one of the major goals of FIRST.

If you truly want to change the culture towards one that respects science and engineering (Dean has mentioned this in multiple speeches), then you need to inspire both groups of people, those that will be scientists and engineers and those that won't.

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

I'm trying to think of an example where "Fun" can meet professional almost seasmlessly and I have to say the best I can come up with (besides FIRST) would be Google. They are a great company and they have recently been voted the top company to work for in the country. Read these..

From the top ten reasons to work for Google

1. Lend a helping hand. With millions of visitors every month, Google has become an essential part of everyday life - like a good friend - connecting people with the information they need to live great lives.

2. Life is beautiful. Being a part of something that matters and working on products in which you can believe is remarkably fulfilling.

3. Appreciation is the best motivation, so we've created a fun and inspiring workspace you'll be glad to be a part of, including on-site doctor and dentist; massage and yoga; professional development opportunities; on-site day care; shoreline running trails; and plenty of snacks to get you through the day.

4. Work and play are not mutually exclusive. It is possible to code and pass the puck at the same time. Emphasis Mine

7. Good company everywhere you look. Googlers range from former neurosurgeons, CEOs, and U.S. puzzle champions to alligator wrestlers and former-Marines. No matter what their backgrounds Googlers make for interesting cube mates.

10. There is such a thing as a free lunch after all. In fact we have them every day: healthy, yummy, and made with love.

I think what I find inherently wrong with your post is that your term of "professional" is becoming old fashioned. Maybe dancing while playing with robots is exactly what professional should be. I love the atmosphere at the Regionals and it would be a shame if anything was to change.

It's not like kids are dancing while important speakers are talking, when it's time to be "professional" we are and when it's time to go crazy and have some fun, no one does it better then the kids in FIRST.

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

As a member of the federal government, I work with some of the most staid, uptight, rigid, button-down bureaucrats around. I asked a few of them, as government professionals, if they thought this type of celebration was counterproductive to attracting the "right kind" of corporate support. Their response?

"Any organization that would be offended by the celebration that occurs at a FIRST competition is an organization that you would never want as a sponsor anyway."

That works for me. Party on.

-dave



.

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

I'm going to rewind a bit back to this quote.

This thread is a little slippery to me, it moves around touching on different points.

This seems to be consistent though worded differently in a few posts.
I've thought about the different wordings and posts and I've thought about inspiration. Inspiration doesn't have a limit. There isn't a timer that is set and in the time frame before it goes off, the person will be inspired or else. Often, inspiration occurs during team time, during build while accomplishing various jobs that have to be done. That's the inspiration that can be easily seen and observed. The students who are on the drive team are easily seen and observed. The students who are part of the presentation team and interview with the judges are easily seen and observed. The students hanging out in the stands, not so much. They are seen and observed as a group representing the team but they are not able to be discerned as to what their contributions are to the team.

And - the funny thing about inspiration - it may occur way after that timer has gone off. Maybe after Atlanta and into summer. Maybe into college. Maybe after college and into career. Inspiration is not finite. Mentors think about these things and talk about these things, discuss them - often. The students who fall between the cracks. How can we motivate them or do we? How can we help them or do we? Team building, team development, team work? What?

And then, something wonderful can happen all on its own...a student who comes on the trip to the regional or Atlanta and seemingly doesn't contribute anything - makes an enormous impact on a summer outreach program with young children who have difficult lives. Very difficult lives. Very few fellow team members are available to view/observe this impact - they are busy with their summer activities. But a mentor and a small handful of team mates are there to view it and to see inspiration blossom. For their team mate, for the young children, and for the adults that shared the moment.

I understand the 'hanging out' concept - but I rarely doubt that inspiration once planted will grow in its own time.

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

We are the next generation. We are the ones who are going to decide exactly what it means to be professional.

If you want that to be the same, buttoned down 9-5 job 5 days a week, then thats your decision. However, as a member of this generation I want to give my .02 cents into that, and I'd like that to change.

Every generation changes what it means to work and to play. FIRST does more then just build robots, it inspires us to do more. And if I want my engineering job to involve some dancing, that is my decision.

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

Are you trying to say american businesses are austere, cold, and devoid of life?

If they want lively, creative engineers... they should look no further than a group of roboticists who can be dancing at one moment then fixing a robot or writing software the very next.

-q

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

I am the most rhythemless black man on the face of the planet and I loathe dancing. I think there is a public ordinance in the New York State legislature banning me from doing it in public to keep other from suffering from the smae disease. That being said the dancing and fun part of FIRST is what makes FIRST the amazing display that it is.
Our team had each and every member write an essay about what FIRST is to each of us. If I may I would like to borrow a couple of excerpts from it. FIRST what I think a competition is:

It was like a big party wrapped around a remarkable sporting event that was like nothing ever seen before with its distinctive strategies and alliance structures with an Oscar ceremony latched onto the back end for good measure.

Nothing sells FIRST better than a FIRST competition. And it's not just the robots or the togetherness of the teams or even the competition itself. Alot of it is the atmosphere that flows freely in the arena and infects everyone in the arena in their own special way.
FIRST is different things to different people. It used to bug when when every kid wasn't going to grow up to be a Kim O'Toole or an Adrienne Emerson or a John V. Nuen. I figured we failed somehow and they just were wasting their time on the team. but now I realize that they were getting something out of it. Whether that be seeking to teach others about the virtues of science and technology or just having a good time they didn't walk away uninspired. Everyone's heart just beat a little different and they take from the competition something different.
Both the students and the mentors. Or as I stated at the end of my essay:

What I truly believe make FIRST so unique and so fabulous is that it give students the opportunity to try on the clothes of responsibility and expectation. To look into the possible future that perhaps awaits them while at the same time giving the adult mentors a chance to recapture the excitement youthful discovery and sense of exuberant joy that permeates throughout the lives of the young that help fuel the drive that led them to where they are this day to help the next generation reach their potential.

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

Very well stated.

I would like to add that we are talking about some young people here who are not comfortable in the typical athletic event setting, but want to have many of the same experiences. I have had a number of students tell me that being on a FIRST team is literally the first team they have ever been on.

The regionals that I have seen are allowing these kids to celebrate in an appropriate way. I personally experience a great deal of satisfaction when I see a young person who has been afraid to show that type of emotion in public suddenly racing across the field with joy or relaxing and dancing.

This is a part of the way in which lives are changed by FIRST and I think sponsors know this.

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

How do you know that those kids dancing in the stands had nothing to do with the robot? Perhaps two of them assisted in the design and build of the manipulator, but are in the stands so as to not overcrowd the pit. Others may have the job of scouting the event, and are using the break to clear their minds. Maybe 3 of them have returned to the stands after their award-winning Chairmans presentation.

Granted there are always problems with getting students involved. On larger teams I suspect it is harder than on smaller ones, as some of the kids tend to get lost in the crowd. There are generally 3 groups of students

1. the core group that is always there, whenever the shop is open
2. another bunch of very dedicated kids, who also participate in other activities, and come to robotics whenever they are able
3. a group that you just aren't sure when you will see them

Of course we want to minimize the number of students in that last group. But perhaps the fun of the competitions, the cameraderie they have with other team members, the other more "social" aspects of the team, are what keep them coming. And somewhere along the line, it clicks for them, and suddenly they're in group 1. Or maybe they stay in group 3 all the while they're on the team, but it gives them a taste for what engineering and technology is all about, and they make a college decision based on that. Inspiration comes in many flavors.

And personally, I've seen far too many professional gatherings that could have been improved immensely by a line dance!

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

Dave's quote puts it best. If you think the people you're bringing to the competition would think lowly of the program because of the "kewl" part then you don't want them as sponsors.

And I don't think that many people are UBER-MAD that the dancing went over by one minute.

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

I'm a detail-oriented nerd, and not a good dancer. Not even a so-so dancer.

But I agree with Dave, Ed, Cathy, and many, many others who see the importance of celebration. Paying attention while executives and politicians speak to the crowd is a form of celebration, but dancing is much more immediate. Orders of magnitude more immediate.

At St. Louis yesterday, our field crew worked hard to get a few minutes ahead of schedule, so we could put all the team mascots out on the field for ten minutes of dancing right before the finals. The crowd seemed to enjoy it, and the teams still competing were probably glad to get the time without using one of their time-outs.

When we're doing things right, everyone at an FRC event should feel like dancing, even those who aren't good at it.

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

I have to agree with you here. Even if you don't like the dancing you can think of it as a chance to let go after a very long period of stress. BTW stress usually isn't kind to our bodies if present too long.

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

I had a lot of stressful situations at the competition over the past three days. As we were waiting for one of our semifinal matches yesturday they took a time out for robot repairs. I usually don't dance but when the YMCA came on I just couldn't help but dance. After the dancing was done I felt very relieved.

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

I've met with many sponsors, parents, judges and other adults (volunteers and spectators) who's primary contact time with FIRST is a regional event. They love they energy of the events - including the dancing. I took my Mom to the inaugural St. Louis Regional (2002?) and she was all grins watching students and mentors doing the chicken dance. It clearly impressed her that this program allows kids of all ages to "let their hair down" and enjoy themselves.

Certainly, the matches are intense and the crowd responds with cheers to team introductions, exciting finishes and scores being posted. I don't think that the level of energy (cheering and applauding) can be sustained between the finals matches (6+ minutes) without some other crowd participation activity. So, why NOT dancing? Even if you suck at dancing as much as I do, you can dance at a FIRST regional without fear of ridicule - especially if you believe others around you are laughing with you not at you.:D

One other thing, as far as I know, there are not many people being paid to participate in the regionals, so the "professionalism" rules of the office (except at Google) don't really apply at a FIRST competition. If you're looking for the kind of professionalism that exists in a design review, don't expect students, mentors and volunteers to be attracted to the program.

My wife adds that dancing is an expression of the soul and the soul is meant to be happy! Celebrate!!!!

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

I dont think this thread is in the right place. What Henry is saying is he is worried that some students dont get involved and arent inspired. What does that have to do with dancing? I'll say it again it is up to each team and each student to make sure they get what they want to out of FIRST. You cant force a student to do anything. Maybe they are just joining because it is a social event. Is there anything wrong with that? They are still getting some experience that they wouldnt have had. This is probably the case for most freshmen, because they dont know what they are getting into. They will learn over the summer, and come back as Sophomores and are more able to contribute.
I am going to quote one of our mentors from last year who runs a college engineering lab "I've had kids that come into my program that dont even know how to work a screwdriver. You kids will learn so much and it will put you ahead of the game, even if you only learned to use a screwdriver through FIRST." May not be exact, but that was his point. Even if kids arent as involved as some they will still get a little experience. If they wouldnt have joined FIRST, they wouldnt have that experience. Like I said what the kids get out of it is up to them. If they want to learn alot they will, if they just want to get their feet wet they will.
Joey

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

Henry,

The way that I look at it is that everyone expresses their enthusiasm in different ways. As someone who spent 13 years of my life in a dance studio (both prior to and during my time in FIRST), I learned to express my emotions through physical movement. And that's how I look at dancing at competitions. These kids are excited, they're trying to get it out. For me, by nature, emotions are let out via physical movement.

There is, however, a line, and I'm sure that most of us know where that is. FIRST competitions are obviously not the place for "dirty dancing", and for the most part, I haven't seen them treated as one.

So I guess that my overall thoughts are, dance the night away. One thing that I have learned in business/accounting school, is that business-people enjoy having fun as much as the next person. They may not be the ones standing out there breaking it down with you, but they're the ones laughing along with you.

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

All,
I appreciate the feedback, but there are still generalizations being made that I did not state.
1)GO CRAZY! I am just not down with the on field dancing.
2)I would hate it if FIRST was a stoic, office like atmosphere.
3)I am not saying that anyone who dances has no purpose on the team, far from that. My only issue is that the kids with no function, the ones who have fallen through the cracks, generally are out there dancing with friends from school. I am well aware of the value and worth of the PR team, the fund raising team, the animations team etc. A FIRST team is a team, as previously stated. It has many facets.

Go absolutely nuts for your team and the things that have been accomplished. Having fun can be done in any manner of ways. I would just like a little more game preservation.

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

I don't see how the on field dancing is so horrible could you please explain in a PM or send a message to me on AIM. And how can you say the ones of the field dancing are the ones with no function?

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

I am not saying that.

I feel that the dancing interferes with the time low of the game.
Kids with any number of functions may or may not dance, I am not assuming here.
Kids with no function, that I have seen, generally are out dancing, not paying attention to the competition, hanging out in the arena etc. That does not in any way mean that the kids who dance don't have a function. I am just saying that SOME don't. It is THOSE kids that I am concerned for.

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

Can every one just stop talking about the dancing? It is what the thread is about, but not the issue that Henry is talking about.



What are you concerned about? Read some of my earlier posts in this thread. It is up to the students about how much they get out of the program. FIRST sets up a program to succeed, all students need to do is commit. You need to stop worrying about those who dont commit because it is their choice. If they dont want to take advantage of this opportunity it is their own problem. Kids will have more fun when they get involved, but they need to take it upon themselves. If they dont want to commit, just go with it. Focus on teaching those who are commited to working and doing their jobs, even if it has absolutely nothing to do with the robot.
Joey

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

I read those posts and I agree. I am aware of the students choice to do what they wish to do. I am concerned for the growth of the group of kids who don't have a role. Eventually pushing some quantity of the members of FIRST in a direction that is not encapsulated in the ideals of the program.

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

Well, Henry, that brings up a few things (not the recent post, the one above Laaba's):

1) Either you asked these students/kids what their team position is, or you spent way too much time following them around.

2) Define "falling through the cracks". For the lack of memory and "googling" skills I'll just lightly remind you of Bill Gates. There are many, many others.

3) I understand now where the dancing part comes in, thanks for clarifying it. I do understand that sometimes the dancing may carry on a few minutes more than expected. But if you're a volunteer, that is almost implied, and you really don't have to be here. Cruel, but true. If you're a team member/mentor who does not want to dance, fine. That's your choice. But this is somewhat a celebration, so they're just having fun. Besides, what's the rush? Yes, there is a schedule, and for the most part it is followed pretty strictly by the officials and teams. But even if you're running late, there must be some time to dance, dance, dance.

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

Joey,
I think it is ok to talk about all the topics in this thread, dancing being one of them. After some time has passed and we are into the lazy hazy days of summertime, this will be a great thread to read and reflect on. Some of the posts on all the topics involved have been great reads with valuable insights, separately and together.

As the thread has developed, the individual topics have become more evident and so we are dealing with several in one thread. And that's ok, so far we are all managing to work with communication. It's a great opportunity to pay attention to everything that is being said. This has happened in team meetings. One topic evolves into 3 or 4 and then everyone is talking and then chaos. But - if handled carefully and with respect, all topics are listened to, addressed, or tabled for future consideration. This thread reminds me of that.

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

[IMHO] This depends on the entire team as well as those specific kids who are "falling through the cracks."

It is up to the mentors, teachers, and captains to make sure that everyone in the stands has a role and responsibility. Its not like teams let kids join and don't teach them how to do anything (if there are then they need to change that).

For example, we generally have over 50 people in the stands. There are generally 10 students scouting for matches. Then, there are the multiple alternates we have for each scout. There are also alternates for the scout captains b/c let's face it, scouting isn't the most fun thing in the world. There are students who are there to scout in the pit area and then report back to field scouts. Then there are liaisons who are constantly communicating with the drive team/programming/scout team and also other alliance partners. So as you can see, it really depends on how strong of an organization that team you are talking about really is. The student involvement is not only individual but also communal.

We barely have students not doing anything.

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

When I clicked on this thread to read about it, I was interested in reading about the dancing because that's what the thread is about. Henry's other issue is a tangent in a thread about dancing, so maybe you should be asking a moderator to split the tangent into another thread or start a new thread about it so that people who do not click on this thread because they have no opinion one way or another on dancing at the competitions can decide if they want to discuss the crack fallers. If another thread is started on that subject, I'll comment on it then.

Every job I've had as an adult has had Holiday parties, summer picnics, and other celebratory gatherings for "jobs well done." And we've danced, secretaries, managers, counselors, directors, tech support... we've all danced. I also think of the competitions as a reward for all of the hard work everyone involved with FIRST has done. No, I wouldn't jump on the table during a board meeting and do the Funky Chicken, just as the refs and announcers aren't doing the Funky Chicken during the matches.

Our students have often volunteered to show VIPs around at the VCU competition. There's a wonderful balance between the hard work going on in the pits to the fierce intensity of the matches and the joyful celebration between the matches that has done nothing but impress those VIPs. Over the years I have invited friends of mine to the competitions: a mechanical engineer, a civil engineer, an astronomer, a medical technician, a public relations manager, a computer programmer, etc. Everything about the competitions impressed them, including the dancing. To them, the dancing is a reflection of happiness and enthusiasm, and all of them have remarked that they wished they had something in their lives that inspired so much enthusiasm.

Heidi

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

I only said stop talking about the dancing because people seem to be trying to put words into Henry's mouth. He has said he doenst have a problem with dancing multiple times. If people want to talk about dancing, thats fine, however that is not the "big" issue Henry is talking about.
Joey

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

I'm confused. Are you concerned for the dancing kids on other teams? I don't understand how you can know what their "function" on the team is. If you're concerned for the dancing kids on your own team, it seems that you're the one who can best work through that concern. Trying to limit the dance options for kids on other teams doesn't appear to me as an appropriate direction to take.

I can best come to grips with your posts by assuming that you think all teams are made up of the same mix of students as yours, and that you have students on your team that you believe to be nonproductive members. But I'd rather not make that assumption, so I really am still unsure what your main point is.

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

I do have a lot of thoughts floating around in this thread, it is pretty confusing.
My assumption on the structure of a team is from seeing a few different teams and their similarities in composition.
My concern ultimately lies with these two things:
1)Mass dancing interferes with game play. Time is scheduled into the rules for anything robot related; let it be such.
2)I am afraid there is a growing population of students that have no role on teams. Whether that is the same percentage-per-team multiplied by more teams at regionals now, or just a shear increase in the team size, I believe it is happening.

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

OK, well, now we have two concerns. I'm not sure the second one is valid, so I'll ignore it in this response.

Now, as to the first concern: If you'll notice, it usually only happens when there is already down time, such as robot cool-down or in a timeout situation. So I'm not sure what the concern is there. If it goes long, then I can see grounds for concern (e.g. if it goes long during the Championship when time is already critical.) But it usually doesn't.

What would you rather have: High schoolers with nothing to do for 6 minutes or those same high schoolers with an activity that might cause the regional to run a little long?

Remember, most of the teams not in the finals have already packed up their robots or are working on it with a designated crew. So there are a lot of people with nothing better to do than dance or cause trouble or what-have-you. Based on your posts, you would rather see them have nothing to do, which could cause problems, which would certainly drive potential sponsors away. I would rather keep them occupied with dancing until the field was ready for matches again.

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

I understand what you're saying... but I think you're a little bit too worried. As I've watched my team grow, it's gone from a group of students who are only interested in building a robot, to a much larger group of students who have interests like CAD, business, spirit, fundraising, community outreach, and much more. Sure, we have times where there are kids in the room not building a robot. We have more students who sometimes come to robotics to hang out with friends. But we celebrate our larger, more diverse team. Even if these kids aren't building a robot, they are growing from their experiences on a FIRST team. They learn how to work together, and they learn from professionals in whatever field they help out with, regardless of whether it involves touching the robot or not. These are extremely valuable life skills. At the competitions and events, they get to witness the robots, and often become inspired that way. A freshman girl who was once afraid to get her hand dirty might be the captain of the pit crew before she graduates. The dancing and excitement at the competitions only helps to draw in more people to be a part of the miracle of FIRST.

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

You're definitely overestimating how fun doing the chicken dance a couple times is. I'm not worried that people are joining our team just because they heard they might get to dance. I imagine those people are going to dances.

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

When our visitors came to the arena on Friday, they said they could FEEL the energy in the place. Maybe they could just feel the bass in the speakers? I love the colored, spiked hair, the painted jeans with the team name and the colorful-ness of the whole thing. I love it that kids can be as creative as they want.

We had a team for 2 years at the STL Regional who were the Kinigits.. (not the Knights). They wore green tunics and one of the guys (with a chainmail shirt) and a female (in a princess outfit complete with cone hat) completed the scene. The whole team clapped coconuts together and they skipped when they moved from place to place. I smiled everytime I saw them.

Anyway - my favorite video clip from this whole weekend is watching the guys (mostly male) sitting on the floor waiting for alliance selections. I think we were 15 minutes ahead of schedule at that time and they start to play the Macarena. Our team captain said that they all just looked at each other wondering why they'd play that song while the captains were supposed to stay on the floor, and they all started doing the dance while sitting. When they all jump to side (right or left?) it is hilarious. I hope we can post it to youtube soon.

6 weeks of seriousness is tough. Most of the time the volunteers/refs and judges get into the dancing during breaks as well. If these people are having a good time and keep coming back as volunteers, it's got to be a positive thing.

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

yeah and what we (i think, don't hit me) are saying is that the correlation between the number of people dancing and the number of "no role" students does not exist. What i have noticed is that the kids who genuinely have no role aren't the ones who are dancing, they are the ones who don't even show up to the competition, or sit in the stands with their heads in their hands showing no spirit at all. I think the ones who have no role, and who are uninspired by this program are the ones who are bored at the competitions.

dancing is a part of the competition. if it "interferes" with gameplay, so be it. they wouldnt have the music in the first place if they didnt want that to happen.

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

ok, here's a story...true story.

My first trip to Atlanta was very exciting. Overwhelming with all the energy, excitement, the fields, the teams, the pits (omg), everything. Wonderful. We were a lot smaller team than we are now and with the pit crew and drive team busy, the team in the stands was very small. And quiet. When the team wasn't competing, the students pulled out books and read. When the team was up, they put down their books and watched. The drive team would signal them to cheer and make noise and it just didn't happen. When the match was over they went back to their books. But - they never missed a match. Not one. They were there, they just didn't want to cheer. Things have changed over the past few years and the team has gotten into cheering and dancing and conga lines but in their own way, I think the quiet ones who read books had just as much fun and were just as involved in the team.

This post doesn't really address anything other than we can't really judge a book by its cover.

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HP3uwQVN15s

This is a short video of dancing at the St. Louis Regional. I left the audio as is - so you can hear them announcing the match scores at the end of the match, while the teams are dancing.

We were a few minutes ahead on Saturday (how did that happen?) and they had all the mascots down on the field to kill some time..

DeAnna

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

Thanks for editing this video, DeAnna. Lots of fun to watch. :)

The audio is good, too. I noticed that dancing frequently took place during field reset, while scores (and sometimes penalty explanations) were being announced.

The Saturday dancing with Fredbird was actually a scheduled activity. Mascots were invited to a special meeting that morning and asked to be ready at 3pm, when Fredbird arrived. Field volunteers, and especially our queueing volunteers, worked hard to keep us on schedule for the mascot dance.

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

I have had the opportunity to attend many corporate/professional meetings.
I can say unequivocally that very, very few of them would not have been better if everyone had gotten up and did a chicken dance.

Tension does funny things to people.
High School kids seem to be oblivious to it at times... and dedicated to it in others....

Culturally speaking, dancing is an expression of emotion...

in FIRST culture.... the participants dance to show their joy in participating.

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

Personally, I think that the dancing is great. It gives people a chance to loosen up when they are stressed. I know for my team it gives all the scouts a break and is fun for all the people with us in the stands.

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

I'm sorry, i really respect the work that everyone else does that doesn't work on the robot. What do you have to say for everyone on Public Relations or marketing or animation or anything else that has nothing to do with the robot and a lot to do with FIRST?

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

IMHO, (Remember, this is an opinion)
Dancing, Mascots, Banners, Flags, Costumes, Loud Music etc., etc., etc.

This is not a "professional" meeting, this is an EVENT. Think of it that way, and you will understand, WE ARE HAVING FUN, and we treat each other with Gracious Professionalism. I believe any Corp. Sponsor will easily understand and agree. (Heck, you might even catch them shuffling to the beat, in a suit :yikes: )

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

Just remember, the OP was against it because of 1) time limits, and 2) people "falling through the cracks"

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

I think the poll results speak for themselves in this matter.

Case closed.

Re: Competition Professionalism
 

Case closed? OBJECTION! Just kidding, Yeah it's done.