Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

I attended the Midwest Regional this weekend - great event. I was frustrated once again about trying to find a place to sit as many seats seemed to be "saved" by coats, bags or whatever. When I located some empty seats I was welcomed with comments like "those seats are saved" or "someone is sitting there." Or, people would sit in every other seat in order to save entire sections of seating. There was a couple of seats that I sat in to be pushed out of because they were "saved for someone." Exerting GP I moved to another seat only to watch NO ONE sit in the "saved" seats for the entire afternoon.

I was not wearing team logo - the people saving the seats would not know whether I was a corporate sponsor or a general member of the public.

It frustrates me because Dean wants us to invite the public to attend our events. How will the public be treated when there is no open seating - and then, when someone sits in an available seat they are discouraged from being there. Is this the way we want to treat the public??

I wonder, if my mother came to the event and was looking for a place to sit would she be welcomed like she should be!

Clearly, FIRST has always said there is no saved seating. How come people forget about this.

Perhaps Dean's homework should have been a refresher course on GP - for teams and parents!

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

I had never thought of it in the way that you said it , though I personally don't advocate saving seat. I would not want to have invited or even general public come in and be treated that way. Perhaps this is something we can work on ourselves.

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

I also do not agree with the seat saving. I have gotten my teammates mad at a me a few time in the past because I did not save them a seat. If you want to get people interested it's not the smartest thing to tell them they can't sit down because the seat is saved for someone who may not come back for an hour. And plus I like sitting next to people who don't know anything about the game. It gives me a chance to explain to them what the game is and what FIRST is all about.

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

Next time look for 1038, we'll welcome you into any open seat near us, give you buttons, and urge you to cheer on the teams on the field. We'll gladly move any belongings of our team mates that have moved to scout in the pits or are buying food, or who have volunteered to work at the event.

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

I think the best thing to do is announce, over the loud speaker and by message on the big screen, that there is NO SAVING SEATS.

Frankly, every time I've encountered this, it has not been a team member or a mentor. It has been a parent or other attendee who probably has not been well schooled in gracious professionalism and does not yet have the vision of how we should act at events.

Instead, they're acting like it's a movie theater where if they get there first, it's "theirs".

Announcements over the loud speakers etc would remind newcomers and would lend teams some needed support when they have to tell someone "while I appreciate that you'd like to save this seat, it's not allowed at a First Competition Venue" - and promptly sit themselves down.

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

I have mixed feelings on this issue. I understand where you guys are coming from and it does make sence. However if you dont save seats, your team may not get to sit together. I think one of the coolest things is looking in the stands and seeing a large team sitting next to eachother. A good example of this was the killer bees from midwest. They had yellow uniforms, and all sat in one area. When their team went, their whole section was jumping and cheering. I just dont think it would be as cool if teams were scattered around. I could see this issue both ways, and dont see it getting fixed.
Joey

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

We are one of those teams that saves seats.
We find it very important to have our team sit together. Having kids spread all over the arena gives off the impression of a lack of cohesiveness and it helps the teachers keep track of what are kids are doing at what time during the event. We do not chase people away though. If you want to sit with us go ahead. Just be prepared to be assimilated into the X-Cats way.:cool:

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

I totally agree, that's how MORT is. We saved seats as soon as we got to the arena on Saturday not only b/c we have a huge team, but b/c its the final day and everyone, I mean EVERYONE comes. Those of you who saw our team at Trenton know how massive our team is. You kinda can't miss the sea of yellow and black:D But also, teams sometimes save seats in order to have organized scouting and have alternates ready at hand. This is something very important to teams who scout well.

Also, if your team has had the same spot for the last 2 day of competition, let another team take it. Its a little unfair if another team has to sit all the way up in the stands when you have perfect seats throughout the regional. This happened to us and it made scouting,cheering, and also getting out of the arena a lot harder. We actually had people come from other teams constantly asking us if we "really needed those seats" and we assured them that they would be filled up. But yet again, we were asked over and over and finally, at the end of the day, it turned out that we needed more seats than that certain area of the stands had. So yeah...save seats only when you need to.

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

This is a huge pet peeve of mine...

Section 3 of the documentation:

3.16 BLEACHER RULES
Sitting together in a group during competition matches makes the game more exciting and fun. It’s where you can show support for your team. Since very often there is not enough seating to accommodate everyone, there has to be a policy regarding seating. Teams are not allowed to save seating space.
With this in mind, it is not permitted to hang banners or ribbons to designate such an area. We will remove and discard banners or roping, etc. Please take turns sitting in the bleachers. Share the fun. When you see there is a crowding problem, leave after your team's match and return later for another few matches.

I think one of the first comments was very important, YOU NEVER know who might be asking to sit down in the seats "saved" for your team. How many people know the Administrator of NASA or one of the Center Directors or some big potential corporate sponsor that came to the events to watch first hand of what FIRST is all about.

What if a judge came to your area because your section looked like fun and someone on your team (parent or visitor) said, "You can't sit there, those seats are saved" We have to treat each person as you would treat your grandmother. Remember she is always watching...

As members of FIRST we have to constantly show Gracious Professionalism to everyone at the events. Never say those seats are saved, invite them to sit down and when your team gathers together for your matches, give them a pennant and have them hold on for the ride.

I want our team to always sit together, but it is very important that we allow people to sit down when there is an open seat. Our team is very enthusiastic in the stands and often the people behind us are always asking us to sit down. We cheer for our team and try to be considerate at the same time. Tough balance if you have people who just do not understand sitting behind you.

So I would suggest Never to tell anyone those seats are saved, let them sit down and make them part of your team. Explain the game, have them up and cheering by the time they leave. This is an event meant to be enjoyed, if your team has the best seats, then sure others will want to sit there. Maybe move your seats to an area "less than optimal".

Good Luck and HAVE FUN!

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

We're not that big a team, plus Buckeye is almost always half empty. I agree that while teams should sit together, you shouldn't "shoo" away other visitors. Help them figure out what's going on here. They shouldn't play musical chairs to find a place to sit, it's not only un-GP but downright rude.

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

At the NJ regional, I'll admit that we were guilty of blocking off a section of seats for our team and guests, and we fully utilized them (and then some). In addition, at least once there was a seat open in our section and someone else came to sit in it, and we didn't say anything to them about it because, well, they needed a seat, too.

What I often find to be true when the public comes and sits in a seat surrounded by a team, they sometimes feel awkward when they realize that they're not here to root for that team. In at least one case, the individual asked where team 293 was sitting, and we gladly directed them.

Now, I may be alone on this opinion, but here's what I believe are reasonable guidelines to think about in regards to creating blocks of seating:

1. create a block of seats that you believe your team will need, and try to use a "border" as a guideline. Either consider taking half-rows, or start at the top or bottom of a section to box yourself in.

2. Think about the needs of other teams, and make sure your neighbors have adequate seating. Don't take 6 rows in the middle of a section only leaving two rows on top and two rows on the bottom. Take the bottom 6 rows or the top 6 rows so that a team that needs 4 can fit in.

3. Don't be afraid to mingle within a row. If you find that your neighbor needs more seats and they're above you, there's absolutely no reason that they shouldn't be able to share a row with you.

4. Don't discourage the public from sitting with your team, even if they're not associated with you. You may be surprised that some guests may be interested in FIRST and may not be associated with a team.

5. As someone suggested above, be helpful to the public! Explain the game, direct them to places as necessary, and extend to them the gracious professionalism that we all tout so much.

Feel free to add to the list, but remember, don't just think about your own team -- you might just happen to be sitting next to the team that may end up being your alliance partners! ;)

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

I have always had a problem finding seating within my own team. I seriously think that the amount of stuff a team can bring into the stands should be limited. I swear, we have more crap up there than people. Tubs and coats and whatever else you can think of... Using my team as an example, I've seen this everywhere I've been.

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

wow, what a complicated issue.
First off, I do respect teams MORT and the X-cats. However, it seems that they are clearly breaking a policy by FIRST.

3.16 BLEACHER RULES
Sitting together in a group during competition matches makes the game more exciting and fun. It’s where you can show support for your team. Since very often there is not enough seating to accommodate everyone, there has to be a policy regarding seating. Teams are not allowed to save seating space. With this in mind, it is not permitted to hang banners or ribbons to designate such an area. We will remove and discard banners or roping, etc. Please take turns sitting in the bleachers. Share the fun. When you see there is a crowding problem, leave after your team's match and return later for another few matches.
It says: Teams are not allowed to save seating space.

To me it seems to me like there isn't enough room for every member and fan of every team to sit together, and still have room for any non-team spectators to sit. I agree that this is a problem that must be solved for Deans homework to succeed. Here is a possible solution:
Have designated areas for "Spectators Only". This could be one or two seating sections where anyone with a team shirt is not allowed. Anyone from the general public can sit here. This section should have a good view, so that non-team spectators can enjoy the event. Then, even if teams save seats, there is still a place for spectators.

Just my thoughts,
DB

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

The problem I have with this arrangment is that it helps create an us and them attitude. I think if the public sat with a team even though they aren't
associated, I feel like they would recieve more of the experience.
I definitely wouldn't want our Gen. Shoemaker to be told that " this seat is saved." If you don't know who he is look him up.
-Jesus

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

My personal opinion is that there just aren't enough seats for everyone in the first place. At VCU last year, almost all the seats were taken! Maybe FIRST needs bigger venues?

Just my two cents

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

I'm going to clarify MORT's seat-saving policy before this gets blown out of proportion.
MORT is a team of about fifty students. We also have a very active group of alumni who come back for regionals. It is not unusual for MORT's section of the stands to contain about 100 people on a Saturday. In order for our team to sit together, we do take up a massive block of the stands. That's just the nature of a team of our size.
If someone who is not from MORT tried to sit with MORT, I doubt (and sincerely hope, on behalf of my team) that anyone would give them a hard time unless someone was sitting there and had left to get food, go to the bathroom, etc. We do not mark seats as taken unless they actually are, and I would not begrudge it to any person, on or off the team, to sit with us.
That said, there are often seats in our section of the stands containing only a pile of coats. Just ask and we'll move them for you!

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

The way I see it, MORT also has the common courtesy and sense to utilize a section of the stands that isn't prime real estate that everyone else is "fighting" for. You realize that sometimes you have to make sacrifices to make sure you can fit everyone in. I suspect that we'll be having to do similar things in the coming years. (Of course, this means now everyone will fight for the top box seats so we can all fit our huge teams :P )

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

Indeed, the stands at NJ were almost maxed out.
First, MORT took up a sizable fraction of the arena, they are a HUGE team. It's a beautiful sea of yellow and black!

Second, MORT selected very non-prime seats, off to the side and up pretty high. (A minor logistical issue when they came down for their trophy ensued...)

Third, I actually DID sit within MORT's "area" and nobody said a word, shoo'd me away or anything - there was an empty seat, I sat there, later I left...Just like it should be.

I agree that teams need to sit together, and kind-of staking out your area is a real necessity. Chasing people away is to be frowned upon. If anyone were to say "that seat is saved", I'd reply "OK, I'll leave when they return".


On a related note: I wish there was some better way of managing ALL THE COATS that are a necessity at a northern regional. Bring a team of 35 and you have to somewhere store 35 big fluffy coats - not to mention the other paraphernalia that teenagers bring with them. The pits don't have the room, there is a security concern ( I don't want my coat to walk away), I need occasional access to it, etc...

Hmmm, perhaps some team can organize a free Coat Check service next year...

Don

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

I dont think they need bigger venues, mainly because they dont get much bigger. I do think they need to reorganize the set up. It they put the field in the middle of the stadium you could use the side bleachers that would be around 1/2 courd or the 50 yard line. This would allow seating on both sides of the field. They could split the pits into 2 sections like they do at WI. Put pits on either sides of the field. The only problem I see with this set up is trying to find a place for the large display screen.
Joey

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

There has always been the rule of no saving seats, but someone always does. its one thing if they are saving a seat for someone who just left to get some food or use the restrooms, but saving seats for the end of the day for the awards or finals is a bit much. So you have to split up a little, it will make it seem like there are more people if the cheering is coming from all over the place. it will kinda be like surround sound, making your team possibly more noticeable, that is if your big enough.

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

Bigger venues would mean bigger fees to the teams. I think most of you would be very surprised how much it costs to rent some of these venues for four days.

Here in Indiana when we go to Colts game in the RCA dome you will see many people pull garbage bags out and stuff the coats into them and stick them under the seats.

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

There is a solution, but it is (in my opinion) not extremely desirable: have less teams at the regional. (and then have more regionals:rolleyes: )

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

I'll admit we save seats so the kids in the pits and parents have seats WITH our team to watch matches. We believe everyone should be seated by each other, especially when cheering. However, we only save as many seats as we need for everyone there.

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

Having the screen on an end wall isn't a problem. Boilermaker has to do it that way all the time, and guess what - they have seating on both sides of the arena and it works out great! They don't have a split pit either. I don't think a split pit is absolutely necessary anywhere. Take a venue like UIC Pavilion or US Cellular Arean (WI) - use the existing setup of half pit half field, but turn the field 90 degrees, but keep the display screen located and oriented where it currently is. Open the upper levels of the arenas (block off beyond a certain section if necessary) and you have nearly twice the amount of "prime" seats and still have the existing seating bowl on one end zone. Red and Blue then queue on one side of the field or the other and queuing trafic is much simpler. More room on the floor for Press and VIPs is created, and you could even setup a designated area on the floor for competing teams to come and stand to cheer (no standing in the stands during your matches, unless you're behind everyone!).

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

At the St. Louis Regional, we are asked to send a picture of a student in our team shirts and they post it on a board with our section number on the picture and an Arena map so guests (if they recognize the shirt) would be able to find the team they came to see.

On Friday, the entire section we were at on Thursday was filled when we arrived...so we sat one section over. No big deal. On Saturday, we sat in our original 'assigned' section, but it got crowded fast. One of the people I invited came over to let me know he was there - he had been there an hour or so but there was not room for him and his extended family of 6 to sit with us, so he sat with another team. The kids were loaded down with swag from other teams and they loved it.

We do have an upper section at the Family Arena, but it's usually not used until Saturday afternoon - maybe that could open up early on Saturday so the teams can spread out a little (especially local ones) knowing that they are going to swell in size throughout the day.

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

Good idea. Is this how WI is going to be set up this year? I think that it would work out alot better.
Joey

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

I don't know what side to be on really. I think it's important to sit with your team at the competition. We Pirates don't really save to many seat because we're a smaller team. The people that watch the matches stay there, and the ones in the pit usually stay there. If they want to watch the match then they stand or find an empty seat. That's what I did last year anyway.

But still...
Last year, me and a couple of my teammates went to the New Jersey regional. We saw lots of empty seats so sat down. Soon after we did we were told we could sit there because those were for the team members [I'm not going to say what team did that to us]. We weren't to happy about that but still we got up and went in search for seats.

Everything has good and bad =\

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

It sounds like we might be using different definitions of "saving seats".
The definition used by FIRST in the rule against saving seats is:
"It is not permitted to hang banners or ribbons to designate such an area. We will remove and discard banners or roping, etc"

It sounds like MORT (and many other teams) are not roping off seats, in fact they are just sitting together as a team. Thanks for being so gracious in your seat saving! Lets all do this!
DB

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

Don, as we sat right in front of you I'm sure you can attest that we had coats filling multiple seats as well, and we were trying to stack coats, too! Include things like spirit items to help cheer you on, it gets REALLY tight, especially when you're trying to invite the public. And yes, with only a 10x10 space in the pits, you barely have room to work, let alone store anything

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

Leaving coats in the pits is a guaranteed way to incur the wrath of the pit crew. And just laying them elsewhere is a very bad idea as we have had team sweatshirts stolen before and here in Rochester it is unreasonable to leave the coats in the cars.

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

Yeah you guys definitely had a presence especially since you were sitting in front of my team. I have to say though that the scouting was really good from where we were sitting one section up.

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

I believe the problem here is that many teams have metaphorically said "to heck with the rules we are going to save seats". The rules are very clear on the subject--it is just a matter of disregard for them coupled with no enforcement which makes it a problem. I've have been sitting in seats for several hours only to have teams come and DEMAND that I move because it is their area. (Failure to comply is generally met with muttering crowding and attempts to make me feel out of place)
I understand the desire for cohesiveness within a team and the obvious solution is to seat your team in an area where no one else will want to sit (high seats, poor viewing angle, etc). Such is the price of having your team as one unit.

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

To me, that would be a real pain. I would hate to be demanded to move. I would gladly clear up some spaces and have members not skip seats at all to accommodate others who ask. We'll always have spaces open if you ask and heck, we'll gladly cheer on for your team as well (maybe if we're not playing you that round:P j/k). :)

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

I think that the FIRST Regionals should organize seating into sections for each team. Then have small sections divided for teams for scouting purposes. Then have another large section for visitors and the general crowd. Yes this would be a little extra work, but it would solve the saving seat problem while organizing the teams into recognizable areas enabling better visitation, etc.

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

I like the idea of a scouting area. Vantage point is very important for scouting IMO.

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

Cartwright
Although this would help the problem it would also create a team and us mentality between the teams and spectators which is something first does not promote.

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

Frankly, I think people should apply the grandmother test. Most people's grandmothers would not want to take the seat of a team member who is in the bathroom or the lead engineer who is toiling in the pits etc., but would have few qualms about sitting in the seat of someone who wasn't in the building.

If space were scarcer than at MWR I suspect a stricter standard would apply.

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

As a teacher taking students on a field trip, I am legally responsible for supervising them at all times. (The school requires more forms and signatures than FIRST does.) It's a great group of kids, and I don't ever anticipate a problem. Supervision is a great way to keep it that way!

I think that FIRST should understand our responsibility to these kids, especially since safety is such a priority for them. If they do not want us to save seats, they need to block off sections. As it happened, we did not save seats, and there were not enough for all of my students to be together. It was a real problem.

There was a whole level of seating in the arena that was not made available until the elimination rounds. Perhaps that should be open the entire time if seating is a real issue. There was also a large section of "reserved seating" in the front center that was never used.

I enjoyed the competition, and I want to model to my students that rules should be followed. It is a problem, though, when the FIRST rules (not to save seats) directly conflict with my responsibilities as a teacher (to keep the kids together and supervise them at all times.) As it stands, we can't win on this one.

Paige Hereford
Team 1098 Sponsor

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

You may want to address this problem with your regional director. To me, it does sound like a feasible explanation as to why those seats in upper levels should be opened up during the entirety of the regional.

my .02

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

I to have mixed feelings on this issue. I really like the idea however of dividing up the arena into sections where teams can then reside. It would solve all the problems of "saving seats" and would also show where you can find people. It is awesome to sit with your team at the events!!!!!!!
Good Luck to Everyone!
Matt Rybar
894

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

The one problem with this is: Teams do not have a fixed size. How would you divide the sections equally between teams so that a team could just pick a spot? If you have the sections different sizes, how do you position them so that there isn't favoritism towards one team size or another? And do you jumble the sections up between days to give more teams the good seats, or do you leave them?

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

I wonder if the judges for the GP or regional chairmans awards should take a walk up into the stands (with a regular shirt instead of the judges shirt) and see about seating.

It would be interesting to see if the judges felt the same way about a team after being told that they could not sit there because it was "reserved".

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

I think this would work... in theory.

A great thing to do if you wanted to do this, would be to approach your regional planning commitee with a possible plan with the seating assigned, and then ask them to try & give it a beta run next year.

If it works, then we can maybe expect it to continue across more regionals.
If it doesn't, then at least you tried to come up with a great solution.

Most things like this that go on at regionals are tested in a small percentage of places before they go "mainstream", or are tried at one regional, and relayed to others as an option.

Maybe this could be one test for next year just to say we tried it and see how it works out.

Another thing to remember is not all regionals are created equally.
Every site of a regional event has specific issues they deal with, but they all have common ones as well.

One regional may only allow say 20 seats per team if you split them up evenly, and another could offer 100 per team if given an even split.

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

The dividing of seating is a nice idea, but as mentioned by Elgin, not all regional are created equally. While I don't doubt there are many regionals that are pressed for space, some (like Buckeye) are more than ample. Heck, last year it was usually only half full at most. There was plenty of space for computer setups for webstreaming/scouting, two landing sections were made into video/photography sections, and all the teams were able to sit together, with visitors mingled in with them or sitting in the upper sections.

Really no point to this post, just to state that they're all different.

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

Great Lakes Regional is putting up a dry erase board and first come first serve on documenting where your team is sitting. It would solve everything.

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

How is that any different than calling seats when you are the first one at a regional? It all sounds the same to me. But really, I don't see it as that big of a problem.To me, it seems like a circumstance that individual people should solve when there is an argument or a sort.

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

The great lakes idea is a good one,not so much to save seats but to let your guests know where you are. Actually, at great lakes last year i spent some time trying to help some grandparents find their grandson's team. they didn't have team number.
So,find your seats in the morning,send somebody to put location on the board and please make sure your guests know your team number. what a nice simple solution to alittle problem.

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

An aside to this discussion worth mentioning: PLEASE keep aisles clear. It becomes an issue when seats (or bleacher space) are full. But we need to keep emergency exits clear. I've incurred this in one venue where I was a volunteer trying to enforce the "keep the aisles clear" and met with non-GP comments from students and mentors and at another venue, where I was trying to escort VIPs down the aisles to the playing field and couldn't get down the stairs because team members were standing there, or spirit items were left there, etc.

Safety FIRST.

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

In my years in the team we have "saved seats" for matches, but that was with a significant amount of people in the stands (maybe a 2:1 or less ration of seats "reserved" to those siting in them). BUT, they were reserved for matches, so if someone wanted to sit down imbetween to watch some matches, we were told that's cool, just if they could move when our matche came up, then after they can sit back down, just so our team can be together.

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

It might help. But it wouldn't solve everything.
They have don't this for several years at BAE, and it doesn't solve the problem. Some teams and people ignore the white-board, and others use it. They might just ignore it because they don't know it's there or what it's for. The teams and people who ignore it will sit where there is open space. This might even mean sitting in sections where other teams have designated as "their section". Also, a first-come-first-serve type thing isn't fair. A huge team might take a good view section, while a team who signs up a little later is forced to sit where they can't see as well.

It seems that teams should act Graciously Professional when it comes to seating. Letting others sit near or with your team. Choosing a seating area that night not have the best view so that another team(s) or spectators can have the better viewing areas. Keeping the isles clear. And being respectful to teams and spectators who are sitting around you.

Just my thoughts,
DB

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

I think that this issue has a fine line... we save seats for our teammates... but we let people borrow the seats while our team isn't there. because i think it would be a little odd that our team didn't get to sit together because there was not enough alloted space for our team. If we are ment to be enjoy the matches with our teammates, our teammates need enough room to sit during matches...

my $0.02

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

I don't agree with saving seats unless it's for keeping teams together.

However, I wish it would not be possible to find a seat in Nokia Arena during the regional this year.

Not because of seat saving, but because of dozens of spectators.

:)

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

what if, we took the low center areas of the stands (the mascot pit thing's always just been an annoyance, clear that out, move it elsewhere or something). And made that area reserved for anyone, no teams at all in that area. Just a spectator area.

As a member of probably one of the largest teams, i feel bad for the teams who can't get seats. But saving seats for your team is important i think... Part of FIRST is looking out into the stands from in the pits and seeing your team colors, all together. Thats part of what makes FIRST so special, is that we form a bond on our teams like no other team in high school.

i was thinking of this while i was at NJ, that they come up with some sort of "assigned seating" chart or something. but then how would the spots be distributed fairly? I think the First come first serve seating way works best. this way, its up in the air every day for where you sit, and teams with bad seats one day can get good seats the next.

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

i concure, i think its very important to sit with your team

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

What I can't believe is that every year this thread pops up. Every year someone points out that FIRST has provided guidelines for FIRST team behavior at the competition sites. Every year a bunch of people post a bunch of "yeah, buts." Saving seats is just plain not allowed. It's rude, it's ungracious, an it's intimidating to visitors. I don't care if you think your team is being swell by "allowing" others to sit temporarily in your so-called section while your team isn't on the field. Just implicitly saving seats is wrong. You know, sitting sprawled out on the end of the row blocking access to interior seats while people mill around looking for a way in then SIGHING and slowly rising when someone asks to get in.

For the teachers who are saying it is their responsibility to make sure your students are constantly in a group and under supervision. I admire your dedication, I really do. Get your group to the stands early and sit down if that's your focus. Although to be honest, I've never yet been to a FIRST event where every group of teenagers I saw was being closely supervised. The cool thing about FIRST kids is they are pretty darn responsible and don't require constant supervision.

How gracious is it to use your 100+ team size to prevent smaller teams from finding a place to sit together? Friendly seat saving is just as wrong as hostile seat saving. Being "happy to move our stuff if someone asks" is still seat saving. Why should anyone have to ask to sit down at all?

If it's really important that you have a big chunk of seats set aside for your team and guests to sit all in the same area, then have everyone in your team come sit in their sits and stay there. If you don't want to sit in the stands all day long (who does?) then you give up your seat.

It's simple. FIRST has already spelled it out. In case you HUGE teams haven't figured it out it is because not every team has enough people to drive the robot, fix the robot, man the pits AND save seats. That means the BIG teams push the SMALL teams out of being able to sit together.

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

I personally think there is a fine line between filling a section entire with a team for the entire competition and saving a section and only filling every 9 or 10 matches. If you fill your section then thats cool but, if you have open you should invite random people to sit with you.

And on another note, if you have random people sitting with you be on your best behavior and don't swear a lot. I noticed with my team that a lot of the kids don't know when to stop. I personally don't think it's a big deal if you do around your friends but please don't do it around other people.

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

If the seat is open to any asker, then it is not saved. At a northern regional, the piles of coats, etc are inevitable. I think that the best a team can do is be accommodating to anyone who asks.

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

Maybe at some regionals there aren't many extra seats, but there are many regionals (Great Lakes 2007?) where there are plenty of seats, and going back to a previous point, if FIRST truly wanted to have a section where public could sit they could easily just rope off a section for non team-affiliated people...

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

If you ask to sit down in a seat, they will say, those are reserved. You tell them, when someone comes and sits in them, I will then move.

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

People shouldn't be telling others that seats are reserved anyway. Just let anyone who wants to sit in any seat they want. It shouldn't have to come down to anyone having to move.

A Modest Proposal
 

Here's a modification to the rule:

"Teams can save space in the back half of the seating area of any event. There shall be NO saving seats in the front half. For example, if there are 30 rows of seats, teams are encouraged to save seats in rows 16 to 30, but may not save seats in the first 15 rows."

Teams that think block seating is important get to sit together, but they won't block seat usage for robotics fans and guests. You will also note that anyone, including team members, is invited to sit in the first 15 rows as long as they don't save seats.

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

My team goes down to the field level during our matches, that we we are all together for cheering and whatnot and there is no problem with saving seats. There is enough area for all six teams to go down and cheer around the arena.

Just my two cents.

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

I am from a very small team. We might only have 6 people at the regional including the drive team. In between matches we are all busy working on the robot, scouting, talking with future alliance partners, ect. We can not afford to leave someone in the stands to "save" our seats. At our last regional, Peachtree, we frequently were banished to the top row end of the arena when we wanted to watch our robot compete due to the large teams saving huge blocks of seats in the middle. It is frustrating to be shoved in a corner while you watch 100s of seats go empty but blocked off by large teams. Yes some teams welcome you when you come into thier block, but just as many, if not more, growl that the seats are saved and ask you to leave. After getting barked at over and over the path of least resistance is to head to the farthest rafters. So for you large teams, while making up your own rules about seat saving contrary to first's policy, think about how it impacts us little guys, not to mention the non-first spectators we are trying to attract. We may be small but we should have equal access to watch our team compete.

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

One of our team mentors suggested an effective way to end the seat saving which is supposedly not allowed at FIRST events. His solution is that any team identified as saving seats would automatically be disqualified from being awarded the Spirit Award. :cool: Interesting idea!

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

I'd eliminate them from regional chairmans and GP awards too. :ahh:

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

This is an interesting debate and one I hadn't considered before, this being my first year on the team.

At the NJ regionals we did not exactly save seats, since most of our team sat at a table with laptops which we had set up. However, we did have an area where we dumped all of our coats and such, and where our scouting members sat. On Saturday, some other people from other teams sat in "our" spot, however that was not really an issue, the three scouts who were still in Trenton simply relocated.

I agree with the idea that there should be some kind of coat check in the northern regionals, as on Thursday and Friday our coats likely took up more seats than our team members at any given time (I think on Saturday we just piled them up near our table.

I also have a question about banners... it sounds as if they are not allowed, yet many teams in Trenton had banners hanging up in the general vicinity(sp?) of where they were seated. Is it just the use of banners to exclucively block off seats that is against the rules?

I don't think we can blame teams from wanting to sit together. It is certainly impressive to see the larger teams in a huge mass all cheering.

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

Hm. However, showing team Spirit involves cheering and getting ur team shown. If you dont save seats and get ur team together, how do you show field spirit.
Our team is very small, however we try to take 2 rows of seats from the start so we can get the scouts situated and such. However, during the competition we end up having our space invaded, and we dont care that it happens. we have 20 people max usually, so our seats are never needed to be saved in a big space.
I think siting with your team is important, however, if you save seats that are way to many needed, then that i would consider wrong.

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

Actually, since saving seats is a clear violation of FIRST event rules, what you do is wrong, too.

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

We're all mature people here in FIRST, and I would imagine if we just worked together we could figure out a way to make sure that teams sat together but that guests and visitors had plenty of seats to choose from among all the stands.

I think it is equally important that teams sit together and that guests have a very easy time of finding seats and feeling welcomed. In some of the larger venues such as at Great Lakes this is not a problem at all, I guarantee you're team will be able to sit together, and well over half of stands will still be open for guests all over the place, amongst the teams. But at the smaller regionals, such as the Western Michigan it can be very hard for everyone to fit in the venue, let alone sit together.

A few ideas I've had have run along the lines of assigned seating. Each team is allocated a certain number of seats, and if they happen to have more the rest of the team has to sit elsewhere, or else work together with the teams around them to come up with a seating solution that works for everyone.

Who knows, I'm sure we could come up with a good idea.

And just because it is a FIRST rule doesn't mean we can't debate it. Yes, we must follow it, but we can still debate it amongst ourselves and maybe try to come up with a rule that might satisfy a larger percentage of people. There is nothing wrong with discussing the rules.

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

I agree, I think some way of assigning seats would be a good idea.

My proposal, which I have read stated here in various forms before, would be to cordon off the back/upper half of the seats for teams and leave the lower half for spectators. Of course this would depend on the venue, and as I have only attended competitions in Waterloo and Toronto I canonly speak for those two, but I think something along the lines of this would work well.

Like I said, I have seen some other comments like this one posted here, and I think any idea that alows teams to sit toghether and cheer toghether as a teams well still allowing for seats for visitors is worth trying out.

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

Same thing at peachtree regional. Half of our team was sitting in the aisle while everyone else was saving seats. A bigger venue would definetly solve the issue.

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

Just one problem, as FIRST continues to grow, we cannot always just " use a bigger venue".

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

Yes we can.
-NJ can move into the Prudential Center
-Philly can go to the Wachovia Center
-NYC can easily support 2 or 3 fields at the Javits Center
-LI from Hofstra to the Nassau Coliseum
-Boston from the Agganis Arena to the TD Banknorth Garden
-Hartford can go to 2 fields
-Toronto can support 2 fields or move into the SkyDome

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

I am not speaking of now, or even a decade later.
I am talking of extremely far ahead where we will be forced to pack in tightly.

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

Before FIRST outgrows a regional venue due to too many teams, there's the other option of simply* holding more regional competitions. I think 40 or 50 teams in one place is comfortably large, 60 is harder to deal with, and 70 is really pushing the limits for a single field at a weekend event.

* Okay, maybe not "simply".

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

The problem that I see in this is that the seat-saving is mutual between all teams.

My experience from this year is this: Members from my team arrives, doors open, we go in. The team President wants to save seats. After being told that saving seats is clearly prohibited in the manual, he still insists on saving seats. Why? "Everbody else is doing it."

This set me off, and I just walked off to the pits in frustration. I concluded that it wouldn't be so bad if everybody could just get over the idea of finding a random, untaken seat and using it. Unfortunately, the aforementioned "no seat-saving" rule is currently unenforced. Hopefully, this thread will go recognized and, my championships, there will be free, open seating.


No. However, as FIRST grows, we can always use more venues. Have a two-week competition, with different teams each week.

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

That is a somewhat reasonable short term solution, which I'll return to.

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

I think I'm being misunderstood. I am talking about us managing the space we have until we HAVE to expand, something that applies to more than just this seat saving problem.
But yeah...

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

Won't always work... In L.A., they only open up the upper deck on Saturday normally. There are enough teams there that doing something like that would force the upper deck open.

Now, with AG in the venue, we were allowed into the upper seats on Thursday... Something about not enough room for the normal lower seats.

Remember, saving seats is not permitted by FIRST rules. Yes, teams like to sit in groups. But if you're going to have few saving seats for many, and somebody sits there, they have no reason to believe that the person you're saving for will return soon. Now, if it's say 20 people in 22 seats, and they say that two people went to the restroom, that's another matter entirely.

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

Question: How would FIRST enforce the "no saved seats" idea or proposed compromises?

I've noticed the "disqualified from awards" idea, but that is unwarranted and has a flaw in that non-team spectators could also save seats. Ideas?

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

There isn't really a way to enforce it...but, they can go through and take down banners, seat covers, etc. used to save seats.

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

The way I see it after all of these posts is that the people involved in FIRST or any activity that is at this high of a level of professionalism should act accordingly. In reality, people should use common sense, common courtesy, and think of others. If you're responsible enough to be on a team, then act as/more responsible, chivalrous, and professional as if you were an adult. There really are some issues that I think can be solved by people just cooperating and being a little more self-less. If you have to sit, nobody should be telling you "Oh, you can't sit there" or anything like that. But..like they say.."If common sense is so common, why doesn't everybody have it?" (Of course that's not what the word 'common' is being used for though).

+$0.02

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

Hi All,

I’ve been around this forum for many years. I appreciate the reasoned arguments about this issue. It’s difficult. I’ve attended (I think) about 15 regional events and more than a few Championships.
I’m easy. I’ll sit with anybody. Some of my fondest memories… Let me reminisce.
I’ve spent some Fridays and Saturdays with 47,(My eyelids hurt, it was so loud), 330, 191, 1126, 45, 233 (Incredible), 1902, 217, and 33. I could go on and on. One of my favorite Saturdays was with 141 in the upper deck at WMR. I think it was still downtown then. They didn’t win, but were Awesome!

Therein lies the problem. I know you. I love the spirit of FIRST. Many folks new to the arena can be intimidated by the energy of the competition.

I believe that teams must sit together.

How about this? We’re easy to recognize, ( Us without a team or completely new to FIRST). Look around and watch for us. Adopt Us. It’s fun. Invite us to sit. Watch for us.

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

Me personally I didn't sit much in the seats last year so there was no seat needing to be saved for me and I couldn't save a seat.

But I agree with no saving seats as it is said in the manual plus you can meet new friends and maybe even form a new alliance just by sitting next to someone from another team.

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

personally, i think the problem comes for the fact that people have nowhere to put their "stuff". teams will most likely have no problem squeezing together to allow a few more people to sit in the row, but too many coats, team spirit stuff, and owner-unknown items may be in the way. teams do not want/aren't aloud to crowd the pits with their junk, so they'll just leave them in the stands.

I think the best way to solve the problem is to have someplace for people to put coats and unneeded personal items. The best way to do this would to expand the pit areas or have another pit-like area for coats and stuff. But then we run into another problem. Not enough space.

Re: Saving seats and Dean's homework
 

What a blast! Just got home from Ypsilanti. (OK, we took the scenic route) Thank You so much to the Bedford Express. You were way Awesome. Sat with you after lunch on Saturday and had a ton of fun. Sitting right behind the Killer Bees didn’t hurt too much.

I couldn’t help but notice, however, the Thunder coming from the upper deck. I had to check it out.

What a treat, sat with HOT and Truck Town. You talk about loud. Congratulations to a very deserving Chairmans team. They had all the room they needed.

Even though the decibels were incredible where I was sitting. The Thunder Chickens (I Swear) I could hear you clapping during the Chicken dance. They seemed to also have all the room they needed. Nice of these large teams to sit where they did.

Re: NYC Regional will have coat check
 

The NYC Regional will have a coat check this year on the level below the main playing field. There will be a nominal fee but it is worth it to avoid losing all your stuff below the bleachers.