Re: Shooters
 

Well 148 is neither a shooter nor an arm and it went undefeated at St. Louis.
And 121 dominated BAE.
So I don't think it's fair to say if it's not a shooter it's worthless junk. In fact to assume that is just bad scouting in my opinion.

Re: Shooters
 

Really? Based on the winning alliances in Oregon, St. Louis, and New Hampshire I'd think arms had a pretty good weekend as well. So far very few teams have "dominated". 1114 is typically agreed on as the best machine, but even they lost twice in qualifications, and encountered some trouble with the #2 ranked alliance in the semi-finals. 103 was as close as any individual team I saw came to dominating the competition, but they are the exception rather than the rule, and it would have been interesting to see how they would have done in Chicago.
Ultimately it comes down to your overall speed in every mechanism, not just the mechanism used to hurdle. The teams that are up near the top are not only hurdling quickly (which many arms can do), but also getting around the field quickly, removing the ball form the overpass quickly, and acquiring the ball quickly.

Re: Shooters
 

And having a very effective Hybrid mode. 1024 and 1114 were a deadly Hybrid combination.

Re: Shooters
 

Comparing a high school track star and an Olympic sprinter would also be bad scouting. It simply isn't fair.

'Arm bots' aren't worthless junk, but it would be interesting to see some of these teams mentioned in this thread play head to head. The level of play at the Midwest regional was pretty much double (IMHO) that of any other week 1 regional. The dominant teams at MWR seemed to all be 'shooters', with the exception of 33. But... as said many times before, there will be a handful of great robots, some shooters, some with arms.

I'd pick a winning strategy over sheer force any day. It seems 148 chose the same at St. Louis, but only time will tell if it can hold.

Re: Shooters
 

148 and 217 as well.

Re: Shooters
 

Who were the finalists at MWR? 111 and 1243 both have arms (I can't recall their other team not because they were inferior but because I know both these teams from other experiences)

Both types of teams have a place in this competition, I have a hunch that arms are going to get better in the coming weeks as drivers get more used to gaging their depth on the field. Also I am sure the reflections on the field didn't help much. It will be interesting to watch and see if maybe shooters hit their high point to soon in the season. Truth be told, I don't feel either can dominate the other.

Re: Shooters
 

I believe I was trying to make the same point as you?

I just dont think saying "Oh man look only 2/5 regionals were won by shooters in week one! Arms must be the best!!!11!!!" is a very smart thing to do. Its week 1... things change.

Re: Shooters
 

Of the four shooters that were at GSR, none of them made it to the semi-finals.

I really like the point about 1114, 16, 71, and 1024 and how they are always good. I bet those four teams could have built arm/lift robots that dominated.

Re: Shooters
 

I'll say this: shooters are doing good, arms are doing good. IMHO, shooters are doing better, I just don't know the quality of the shooters at regionals other than NJ and Midwest.

By far, shooters are the most fun to watch (at least on the webcast) ;)

Re: Shooters
 

I'm going to have to say that this first week may have been misleading in showing the true strengths of robots. It is tempting to say that shooters dominate, but I think that a better statement would be that well built robots dominate. Watching the New Jersey regional I think that there are several very well designed arm bots that can score as fast a shooter.

Re: Shooters
 

Good working robots are more fun to watch. That's why the elims are where the event really comes alive.

Re: Shooters
 

Yup i dont think its fair to say that shooters dominate (although Sparky and Blue Cheddar are pure shooters) Its all about timing, talent and luck

Wish us luck,
VCU Regional [next weekend]
:)

Re: Shooters
 

I would have to argue that, when you compare this year's bot to every other bot they have produce it is by far the simplest bot they have ever built, no amazing box stacker, no platform climbing crab drive with hanging arm, no double jointed arm, no tank drive poof ball shooter, and no folding ramp with a 4-bar arm that fit within 4" (or something ridiculous like that). I would say their '06 bot was fairly simple, but when you look at their mechanism this year its what, a single joint with a roller manipulator and a 'punch' kicker (its pretty simple mechanism), I would say their bot is a very simple solution to this year's game. When you compare it to what a lot of the other 'top' teams came out with looks fairly darn simple to me, maybe its just the machining quality that makes it look more complex then it is.

Re: Shooters
 

I can think of at least one more ;)

Re: Shooters
 

I think we can all agree on this: exceptional robots do exceptionally. Yes, 33 has an amazing arm bot that can score really fast, and yes, 1114 can hurdle at a blistering pace. The same goes for 111, 16, 25, 103, 1625, 71, and so on. You could go tit-for-tat for days citing good arms and good shooters and never reach a conclusion over which is the superior design. The only real conclusion you could ever reach by looking at specific robots is that you need a good robot to have a good robot. Duh!

On a purely theory based level with all other things being equal, I think shooters do have a higher upper bound on their hurdling rate than arms - most shooters can save time by not stopping. Arms are clearly more versatile than shooters; it may be possible for some shooters to fire a low-powered shot onto the overpass, but I highly doubt such a strategy will have anywhere near the placing reliability that a decent arm does.

Regardless of the hurdling method used, it is clear that the biggest determinant in a given robot design's effectiveness in this game is its ability to acquire the ball reliably. You can have the most amazing arm/shooter in the world, but if you can't get the ball to it, it is useless. I imagine that, in many cases, this is where shooters fall short. Many of the average and below-average arms fall short here too. All the good hurdlers have mastered acquiring the ball, and that is really what matters in this game, not whether the robot is a shooter or an arm bot.

For the record, my team's robot is both (if we get the shooting portion to work properly).