Re: 2008 Ultimate Alliance
 

Hey, ThunderChickens are good, but I don't think they're so good they can compete in GLR and GTR at the same time!

Re: 2008 Ultimate Alliance
 

hrmmmm

1114, 71, 233...

IDK something about the Ultimate Alliance always makes me wanna pick Beatty, and i know we have all learned before that you never bet against them. hrmmm if 1114 can capture GTR this coming weekend I'd go as far as to call them the best robot this year (even though 1024 already has 3 regional wins).

Re: 2008 Ultimate Alliance
 

This might sound a little obvious at first but stay with me... it all depends on who gets #1 seed and who is in what division. If the two best hurdlers are in the same division (personal opinion: 1114, 217) and one of them gets the number one seed, then they will pick the other. I think you will be hard-pressed to find 2 robots that can beat this as it stands now. If one of them does not get the number one seed, then things start getting interesting, because there is going to be a face-off, now it all depends who gets the number one seed, is it a good or average bot? Or somehow did a low-scorer get up there? If the #1 seed is a less-than-ideal teammate then whoever they pick is in deep trouble, because they get the veeerry last pick, so you're going to end up with 1 phenomenal robot, and 2 less-than-phenomenal robots, and that isn't going to win the championship this year. I tend to think that the gap is wide enough from the phenomenal bots to the good bots that champs is going to be won by the #1 or #2 alliance, possibly #3, because by the time you get to #4, all of the awesome bots are gone. So this is who wins... the 2 best hurdlers in their division and the sleeper lap-bot (or possibly defense, I've now seen what defense can do at WMR). This is called the "ultimate alliance" but I think that if the two best hurdlers get together with an ok lapbot the 200-pt. barrier will be broken.

Re: 2008 Ultimate Alliance
 

This is the way I see it right now. A pairing of any of these robots would be amazing. Either way, look for all of these teams to be making waves in ATL.

Tier 1:
1114, 217 (I absolutely love the chickens this year! Slams are much cooler than Boops)

Tier 2:
330, 968, 987, 233, 71 (with rollers), 1124, 16

Tier 3:
175, 254, 2056, 111, 118, 980, 121, 1024, 1625, 33

Forgive me if I am forgetting anyone. These are just the teams that stick out in my mind. Also forgive me for the northeast bias. These teams pop into my head much faster.

Re: 2008 Ultimate Alliance
 

Or if the first seed is smart, they can break up alliances before they are made. Let's say that 1114 and 217 are in the same division. #1 seed is, say, a not-so-good team. 1114 is third and 217 is fifth (random seeds). If that team is smart, they will: pick 217, then pick 1114. Note: only do this if you know both will decline...Now, 1114 and 217 CAN'T team up, and so both get a less-good alliance. They may even face each other at some point.

It all depends who is first seed. At L.A., with two good hurdlers and about three or four less-good ones, the first seed was one of the good hurdlers and picked the other. Game over.

Re: 2008 Ultimate Alliance
 

I bet most top seeds would be happy to get 1114 or 217 if they don't decline...

Re: 2008 Ultimate Alliance
 

Is this for the top hurdlers?
Or is it for the 1/2/3 in being alliance picked?
Because, i think that the top team would pick a hurdler, and then a D bot on the way back.
Any team that picks 3 hurdlers that are good hurdlers. (E.g. 1114,217,330) Would be at a disadvantage, because it would be 3 people fighting for balls. 2 hurdler, 1 Def bot would be the ideal one for this game.
And on the thought about 8th seed getting the better picks, i dont believe this to be true this year. the 8th seed will likely have an inferior hurdle mechanism compared to #1 seed. And they will pick another not as good hurdler because the top teams will pick them first. And the 3rd round pick will be a bot that will play defense, which most bots can do.
Last year, the 8th seed had a real advantage, because they would pick a person who can put rings on AND then get the best Ramp that they could climb.
This game it will be a strange alliance picking at nationals for sure.

Re: 2008 Ultimate Alliance
 

I'm inclined to add 1086 to this mix. They have very good ball capture and handle abilities in addition to a very high-powered catapult. Their drivers learn very quickly and know how to maneuver their mecanum drive through traffic very well without getting penalties. They've repeatedly knocked the ball off of their own side overpass in hybrid and the only reason it was slow was b/c it was designed to ensure alliance members were not in the way.

You'll see them in Atlanta: they won VCU finals and VCU chairman's.

This depends on your point of view. It is much more efficient to offensively score than to do preventative defense, in my opinion. 3 partners who have a system for handing off balls to each other may benefit their score differential more than one of those bots could while playing defense on the opposing alliance. It's all just an opinion though.

Re: 2008 Ultimate Alliance
 

Lots of good points about alliance picking the last several posts.
A good example of breaking up alliances was in 2006 in the Newton division.
Forgive me if you dont agree, but CLEARLY, Newton was the best division with the most top tier robots.
Aces High, a fairly consistent winner year in and year out, broke up a deep division as stated earlier on how to do it.
Examples: 111, 25, 254, 987, 968, 71, etc. etc. 25 was arguably the best robot in the world that year.

I just wanted to add since it wasn't mentioned that breaking up alliances weakens the other seeds, which indirectly makes your own alliance a better one on a more equal playing field of alliances.

VCU '08 this year is a prime example.
#1 picks 4, 4 denies, picks 2, 2 denies, then picks 11 (arguably the best robot at VCU, team 1731). They wanted 11 from the very beginning, but would have loved to have either 2 or 4 (sparky twins).
So 1 picked 11, 2 picked outside the top eight, then we picked 10 since we couldnt take sparky, team 4.:D

Re: 2008 Ultimate Alliance
 

Until THEY play defense against YOU, realistically making both sides defense bots null and void.

3 good hurdlers requires at least 2 teams from the other alliance to be playing defense. Period. And I'm willing to bet one of the three hurdlers on my team can play pretty good defense if needed (They seem to have a grasp on the playing the game, I'm sure they can handle running balls into the wall...).

3 hurdlers keeps the opponents on their feet. They are no longer keeping the ball away from 1114. They now need to keep the ball away from the entire alliance, which is much harder to do. Defensive robots will accrue more penalties and have less options.

An alliance with 3 hurdlers will score less points on average, but win a higher percentage of their matches. It scales the scores unevenly in favor of the pure offensive alliance.

For example: my 2 hurdle/1 defense team can win matches 100-80 against a similar alliance. My 3 hurdler alliance can win matches 80-50 against the same team

This is all IMHO.

Re: 2008 Ultimate Alliance
 

I really think that every alliance at champs. will be strong for eliminations. Rather than having 1 or 2 good robots at a regional, all of the strongest robots are in one place. The thing you will have to worry about is the weaker robot that gets lucky and creeps into the top rankings. These teams will create weaker alliances but a more even spread of the good teams if they manage to break them up. I would not worry about not being able to get good alliance partners if I was a lower seed. There is soo much talent.

And to Tom, I am starting to like the 3 hurdler alliance. I think it could work really well if you had the right teams and proper coordination.

Re: 2008 Ultimate Alliance
 

I like the way you think- we always talk about hypothetical situations like this before alliance selections.

And your story about L.A. sounds a lot like what we saw in Connecticut- of four or five really good hurdling robots, two of them seeded in 1st and 2nd. When seed 1 picked seed 2, and none of the other good hurdlers ended up paired with one another, alliances 2-8 were a little disadvantaged.

Re: 2008 Ultimate Alliance
 

I think you've got to include 1717 in Tier 2 or better.

We're flattered by the Tier 3 ranking, but we are definitely a role-player (defense, herder, etc.) for an alliance with two good hurdlers. Maybe that's a formula that will work in Atlanta, but we're really not in the same echelon as 33, 111, 118, 254, 1024, 1625, ...

Re: 2008 Ultimate Alliance
 

4 tiers is too many and I didnt want to give 330 too much credit for your dominance in LA... ;)

Also I will have to check out 1717, for some reason their bot design escapes me.

Re: 2008 Ultimate Alliance
 

Black tower and base, white logos/numbers. It's a three-wheeled roller claw on a lift. 6WD. Something like 254/968 from last year with a variation of the roller claw in black and white. No pictures from this year in CD-Media, but TBA has one.

Re: 2008 Ultimate Alliance
 

This is a great point although it only works for few select alliance. Obviously is 1114 and 217 are in an alliance, a third hurdler is questionable, especially if it is picked in the third round (which it would be). Would you really want this third hurdler to take the ball away from the power house scorers. If you are against a defensive robot a good alternative is a pure racer, such as 148.

Re: 2008 Ultimate Alliance
 

I honestly don't think there is any "Ultimate Alliance" this year that would roll over all competition. Obviously any alliance matching 1114 with 217 or 968 with 330 will be a power, but once you get to that high level of play, luck and strategy start to play a much greater role.

Remember 2006 IRI? - Going into the elims everyone, and I mean everyone, thought the #1 alliance, combining the two most feared teams of '06 (25 & 1114) would dominate. How'd that work out?

People will always speculate how things will play out, but year after year we are surprised when David takes down Goliath. It's why they play the matches, folks. (Though for the record, I would love to see 217 & 1114 pair up. It would just be fun to watch.:D )

Re: 2008 Ultimate Alliance
 

The third hurdler wouldnt be taking the ball away. They would just create more scoring opportunities, which draws more defense, which drops the opponents score.

Re: 2008 Ultimate Alliance
 

I absolutely see your point, but i think that having three hurdlers would cause a lot of confusion in the alliance. I do see it happening if the alliance has great communication and strategy, especially during the match.

Re: 2008 Ultimate Alliance
 

I really enjoys Mike's point. I mean I was the human player for 1625 and I was sure we wouldn't make it past Semis, but look what happened. I really can't wait to see how alliances pair up at champs.

Re: 2008 Ultimate Alliance
 

Personally, i didnt think they were the most feared teams in '06 (121,217 come to mind ;)), but in '06 ANY team of good shooters could win the game as long as they had balls and could get auto mode down.

I dont think that the obvious team will win this year either.
I think a 3 seed is going to win :P

Re: 2008 Ultimate Alliance
 

Well at the 2008 Microsoft Seattle Regional our alliance was doing pretty good together. Team 1983, Team 2046 and Team 949 went through the finals without losing any game. Seattle does not have the every strong teams like 1114 or 368 (they really impressed me in Portland) but I think we built a very strong alliance.

Re: 2008 Ultimate Alliance
 

---off topic---
Slightly untrue. In Einstein semifinals, the 195, 968, 25 alliance purposely lost the auto mode to beat the 177, 1126, 201 alliance.

Re: 2008 Ultimate Alliance
 

Interesting. Would you care to explain how you came to that decision and why?

Re: 2008 Ultimate Alliance
 

25 and 968 shot in auto. 195 played defense.
1126 and 201 shot in auto. 177 played defense.

1126 and 201 could outscore 25 and 968 in auto, but 25 and 968 had a big advantage in teleop (they both camped under the goal and rarely missed)

So, it was worth it to put 25 on defense on 1126 and 201 in auto and hand them the 10 point bonus, but try to take away more than 10 points in missed shots. (1126 would have hit 10/10 without defense)

Then, 968 and 25 could start the teleop portion with a full magazine, and hit a higher percentage rather than throwing them away in auto.

Re: 2008 Ultimate Alliance
 

Re: 2008 Ultimate Alliance
 

I had PM'ed him right away with a full response...was trying to keep this thread on topic.
Sheesh Tom and Greg.
Greg, shouldn't you be webcasting?

Re: 2008 Ultimate Alliance
 

But Corey, don't you know theres only one type of alliance and one strategy that can win? Like last year. 2 good tubers and a ramp bot, right? :cool:

Re: 2008 Ultimate Alliance
 

After my explanation, please put this thread on topic.

SparX's robot broke. The timing belt for the shooter pulley snapped! It was not intentional. Something happened physically to the robot. That is why only one ball came out of the shooter. Does this explain everything to everyone? And why SparX's robot did not perform as well as expected the rest of the matches?

Now, lets get on topic. The 2008 Ultimate Alliance :yikes:!

Re: 2008 Ultimate Alliance
 

I would agree you mostly here. I would think that an ultimate alliance would be one with there hurdlers that are also fast with doing laps. This is because the opposing alliance can never predict what robot is going to have the ball. Also, I would say this alliance would want one arm hurdler to be able to place at the end for the bonus. From this, I would say the ultimate alliance would be 1114, 217, and 121.

Re: 2008 Ultimate Alliance
 

Any team can play defense.

An Ultimate Alliance needs to be of course to great shooters and then if possible because of the amount of teams available during the picking process a third shooter, The alliance leader and its companion hurdler are going to have targets on their back. If one robot is being pinnned down then you still have 2 more robots with at least the "potential" to shoot. Teams are limiting themselves by saying just take a quick lapper or D bot. Sure, some of those robots can consistently put up 5-10 laps, but points won hurdling over the bars can be exponentially more.

Just because a team has a device to hurdle, doesn't mean they cant still do laps and play D, and a majority of the teams I see with those capabilities are just as quick as a robot that is just Def./herder.

This year because the game piece was large I think that really slowed team downs on how to accomplish the game task. There is a Definite opinion of who top teams are, and then theres a small middle tier between WoW and Ok.
Good Luck to ALL teams! Keep up the good work!
-SeanC 987:confused:

Re: 2008 Ultimate Alliance
 

An important thing to keep in mind is that more than two hurdlers on one team may be overkill, I think two good hurdlers and a speed bot with a solid hybrid mode. If some form of an ultimate alliance were formed I could see 12-14 lines in Hybrid, both balls knocked off, and 10 hurdles(maybe more). An individual robot can't do much better than putting up numbers like both balls and 5 lines in hybrid and 6 or 7 hurdles in a match.(oh...wait that sounds like 1114) any team with 1114 is an ultimate alliance.

Regardless of a speed bot I would think three hurdlers would be 1114, 103 and 217. In saying this i'nm not taking anything away from 118, 25, 27, 40,20,121,126, 968, 987,1024 and some others as well.:D

Re: 2008 Ultimate Alliance
 

This thread has two tangents.
Who you think is the ultimate alliance and who we think will do successfully well at CMP.
The discussion will get more interesting once the divisions are setup. It's too bad we are going to have to wait a week longer now due to that week 6 regional.
Cant wait to see what everyone says once that's setup.

I think the Hawaii regional this past week had arguably 5 of the top 12 robots in the world. Bragging rights of a top score of 148 in the finals match. :ahh:

The Poofs, Pink and RAWC are long overdue for a world title.
Pink and Raider Robotix certainly with an all around robot with their hybrid mode. Even these teams agreed that once 368, kika mana fine tunes their hybrid mode, they are very very good. they will certainly be scouted, choosing or be chosen this year at CMP as an alliance partner.

Re: 2008 Ultimate Alliance
 

The bottom line is this,if 217 THE THUNDERCHICKENS, and 1114 THE SIMBOTS team up ,FORGET ABOUT IT!!!!!!!!!! With these two awsome teams and scoring machines together,with the masterminds of Paul and Karthik lights out 8,9,10! Add another good scorer that can lap or play some D and you have a powerhouse!!!!!!!

Re: 2008 Ultimate Alliance
 

Best alliance ever would be Team 987 High Rollers and Team 39 Aero Squadron and another great team.

Re: 2008 Ultimate Alliance
 

No numbers will be inserted and will never be inserted in my opinions. only what the bot needs to be and you can fill in the teams as you wish.

I say...

2 robots that have the ability to shoot and a roller intake system where they don't have to stop 90% of the time to acquire the ball after a hurdle.the third robot has to be a arm type robot, one that can easily knock at the end and play hard defense on the top teams.



.

Re: 2008 Ultimate Alliance
 

Just wanted to add observations made this past week which I'm sure others could add based on observations at other regionals.
Types of referee calls (consistent), defense, and what the role of the non-hurdling robot should do.
Many were amazed/shocked/happy/mad at the same time during the matches between the 2024/846/2460 vs 233/254/2454 matches in the semis where the pink alliance barely pulled out the win in the rubber match.

Before you watch the vids, you have to wonder how the heck did they almost lose. Remember, this alliance pulled out a record 148 points in the finals, while pink was undefeated during the weekend dominating matches, and to add 254 to the alliance which was dominating. 2024 and 846 averaged under 2 hurdles per match, yet were very, very confident as I watched them from behind. If they had won, 233, 254, 968, and 25 all would have been knocked out in the semis (the top 4 offensive teams at the regional, IMO).

The referees allowed the teams to play without strict penalties (not counting G22). The strategy by the other alliance clearly worked to immobolize the scoring. I dont want to get into the tipping over part as it shouldnt be argued over on CD.
My point is that the referees controlled the tempo of the matches which were consistent throughout the whole tournament. I wonder what will it be like at CMP.
Anyone can be immobolized by a good defensive robot. I've heard great praise about team 8 from 2024 at SVR and their defensive abilities, where both of them teammed up. 2024 has shown great confidence, great driving, and great strategy in their 2 regionals.
Those two may not be among the greatest of hurdlers, but they certainly should not be passed up at CMP, at the very least as the 3rd alliance partner.

Just another note: It was the first time I saw where the strategy in some matches were to act as if you were herding the opponents ball for them very intently the WHOLE match, in preventing hurdling. That is truly a GREAT strategy.

Sean,
Where are you? What do you think? Acccurate? :)

Re: 2008 Ultimate Alliance
 

Rather than explain my reasoning and leave out the numbers of each of the teams to fill the roles, I'll give you the teams and let you guess at the reasoning. ;)
1114, 365, 1024


Okay, Glenn's edit a split second before I hit "post" is just plain scary.

Re: 2008 Ultimate Alliance
 

I also agree with the three hurdlers idea
As long as the alliance is communicating (which I don't see why they wouldn't) then it wouldn't be a problem.
From first hand experience, a 2hurdle-1lap/def bot can do pretty badly.
In the Wisconsin regional, the number 1 alliance (1625.1730.1675) looked like it was going to dominate, but then a hurdler broke and we only had one other hurdler. THEN the other hurdler broke. Leaving three lap bots, and unless you had extremely awesome defense (but that equals penalties) you really have no chance.

Although I'm surprised no one said 1675 (not to be conceided), because we were spotlighted earlier (week 2ish) about being one the first defense bots...


But the idea of three hurdlers is, in my opinion, the best, as long as communication is present.

Re: 2008 Ultimate Alliance
 

DITTO! and we're 6 hours apart.

Since your dad saw the whole thing, I'm sure you'll have lots of interesting things to "analyze." I think it was an eye opener even for him.

Re: 2008 Ultimate Alliance
 

Now I will have to say

20, 1114, and 148

Re: 2008 Ultimate Alliance
 

Team 1114 They are just amazing, Team 1477 Best Win-loss record in FIRST, Team 16 Their robot has amazing potential if the driving coordination improves.

Re: 2008 Ultimate Alliance
 

I've heard from many others that teams 16 and 20 are just simply amazing and that its a surprise no one is talking about them more often.

Re: 2008 Ultimate Alliance
 

Best win-loss record for this season, or for the whole team history? What is your record?

Re: 2008 Ultimate Alliance
 

*Shudders* I don't even want to imagine that...i mean, that would be at least 80+ points in hybrid if everything works out

Re: 2008 Ultimate Alliance
 

I still have yet to see a better robot than 1124. 1114 is the only one that might be better than them, as far as I can tell, but the UberBots just seem more consistent and have a better pickup on the ball. 1114 definitely has the best actual hurdle, but it seems like if anyone is as fast as them and plays hard defense on them, they're going to have a hard time picking that ball up. 1124's only weakness is their net getting tangled up in another robot. It would be absolutely sick to watch them team up.

I hope that wasn't confusing as their numbers are so close. ;x

Re: 2008 Ultimate Alliance
 

Team 1477 has the best winning percentage of any team that has competed in at least 2 regionals at 30-1 and by the way our only loss came because of penalties our driver got when all four of us on the field had a huge blonde moment and picked up the other alliances ball and ran for half a lap. That match was against 118 and even with the penalty and lost time and scoring potential of the mishap we only lost by twenty points and BTW that was 25 matches ago. :)

Re: 2008 Ultimate Alliance
 

After seeing the Las Vegas regional, it's obvious that 39 definitely belongs in the ultimate alliance. Holy cow. They had several 7 hurdle matches, are able to catch the ball when taking it off the overpass (in hybrid as well as teleop), and can hurdle a flat trackball. Enough said.

My current favorite alliance: 1114, 39, 1024

Re: 2008 Ultimate Alliance
 

Is there another website that has a lot of the finals matches besides YouTube? I keep trying to find videos of different regionals and failing :(

Re: 2008 Ultimate Alliance
 

Did you try The Blue Alliance

http://www.thebluealliance.net/

and Soap108?

http://www.soap.circuitrunners.com/2008/movies/

Re: 2008 Ultimate Alliance
 

Team 2122, 1662, 1388 what an alliance that would be

Re: 2008 Ultimate Alliance
 

1114,39,2016

first of all the ultimate alliance definitely has to include 1114 and probably 39 and for the last bot since its fellows almost never break and 1114 covers both balls in hybrid i would have to pick the fastest team, 2016 who also gets lines in hybrid.

Re: 2008 Ultimate Alliance
 

the pink swamp tigers
233, 1251, 179

Re: 2008 Ultimate Alliance
 

1114 , 330, and 597 :P

Re: 2008 Ultimate Alliance
 

Since the divisions are out, I will give you my ultimate alliances in each division.

Galileo: 1114, 330, 217
Newton:233, 39, 175
Archimedes: 1124, 987, 365
Curie: 67, 33, 1126

Re: 2008 Ultimate Alliance
 

I say 381, 103 , 384

Re: 2008 Ultimate Alliance
 

Galileo:1114,217,330 Newton:968,233,39 Archimedes:71,987,27 Curie:1126,67,2337(you will see what i mean with 2337) .

Re: 2008 Ultimate Alliance
 

I know about 2337. I love their bot, the way it boots it over. Its really impressive.

Re: 2008 Ultimate Alliance
 

Completley impossible, but still fun:

Archi: 71, 987, 1024

Curie: 16, 67, 191

Galileo: 217, 254, 1114 - awesome during teleop, but lacking hybrid powers (talking about the non-1114 members). Maybe 40, 217, 1114.

Newton: 39, 233, 968

Re: 2008 Ultimate Alliance
 

Man I almost forgot about this. Well I Better get an alliance out before Eliminations.

I think that the best alliance will have 2 elite hurdlers; robots that can easily take charge of an alliance's offense. At least one will be able to cap, but ideally, both could cap a trackball.

The third robot is much harder to peg, however, an elite alliance must have a robot that is capable of playing some type of defense. This is essential, because hurdlers on opposing alliances will need to be slowed/shut down to get a W. This defensive robot could be a lap bot or another hurdler, but whatever their primary scoring method is, it must be fast, because they probably won't be using the trackballs to score a lot.

Something that I think is essential to an "ultimate" alliance is minimal penalty point deductions. While this late in the season penalties should become scarce, they aren't (although they have decreased). A team that hardly ever gets penalized will go far.

Re: 2008 Ultimate Alliance
 

lol... 121, 1114, plus someone...

thats my final offer on this matter lol :D

Re: 2008 Ultimate Alliance
 

1124 alliance vs 1114 alliance in the finals of Einstein!

Re: 2008 Ultimate Alliance
 

Good call :)

Crazy that some people's "Ultimate Alliance" is actually happening. They very well could win Einstein too.