A Courtesy
 

I know how scouting is one of the most importnat things to do at regionals. Taking photos of opposing robots is a great way to learn and study your opponenets and future alliance partners. Just please dont do my biggest pet peeve... Please do not photograph robots without asking. Come over be polite, ask questions, and talk a little bit. When I was the driver and manager, I always liked talking to scouts. And if you would like a photo of our robot just ask and we will most likely not have any problems with it.
Good luck guys and gals!

Re: A Courtesy
 

I'm curious. What is it about people taking photos of robots that bothers you?

Re: A Courtesy
 

You posted a picture of your robot here. Its already public knowledge what it looks like.

Re: A Courtesy
 

I think his comment is the taking of photos without asking. Not sure why this is an issue, as in order to go take part in a FIRST event, you already signed the waiver which allows photos to be taken of you/the surroundings...

Re: A Courtesy
 

The only reason I ever ask if I can take a picture is if people are in the way.

Why would you care? Your regional is your public unveiling. Everyone knows what it looks like, so what difference does having pictures make?

Re: A Courtesy
 

I think he just wants people to be polite. That's what I took from it.
Otherwise it might be that he doesn't want other teams taking pictures of a robot that isn't finished yet. It would suck if the picture another team's scouts take is of a robot that isn't quite done, and thus you don't get picked because they didn't know who you were.

Re: A Courtesy
 

The wording of your post also leads me to believe that you view the taking pictures of a robot the equivalent of Microsoft sneaking shots of Apple's new secret product.

Personally, I love it when scouts come over and take photos of our robot. They're showing interest in the object of our six-week sleep-deprived building spree.

Re: A Courtesy
 

I really don't think the robot cares whether or not someone takes a photo of it or not, but do agree that it is proper etiquitte to ask to take a photo of a person, whether or not you have the legal right to take a photo and regardless of whether someone has signed a waiver allowing their photo to be used.

Since the pit areas usually have people in them, as well as a robot, the suggestion that it is polite to ask permission to take a photo is quite reasonable. I don't think I would suggest that anyone "should have a problem" with it when not asked for the photo, however, if a photographer asks nicely, the people will probably move out of the way and/or pose the robot to give the photographer a much better shot.... as well chat about their machine and team.

At the same time, there are great photos to be had of teams in action when urgent repairs are under way, and at those times it is probably inappropriate to butt in and ask for a photo... but don't go shoving a camera in there or blasting off your flash a dozen times, either. Discreetly take your photo and carry on. If you captured a great shot, come back later and share it with the team.

Although it could, perhaps, have been phrased a bit differently, I think the original post serves a valuable reminder to everyone with a camera to use discretion and good manners when taking photos... at FRC events and anywhere else, for that matter.

Jason

Re: A Courtesy
 

If you are attending this event, you already signed away your rights to be photographed. Weather or not you want your robot to be photographed is simply not up to you. Furthermore, saying that people should not take photos of robots without explicit permission is simply un-FIRSTlike. That last little bit there almost seems like an Ultimatum.

Who knows. Perhaps I'm so offended by this request because 3/4 of my life is witnessed from behind a viewfinder.

Re: A Courtesy
 

True. I think the reason people are asking what his problem is is the "tone" he seems to have used.

If you don't want someone taking a picture, ask them nicely to return later. Ideally, give them an estimate when you'll be ready. It doesn't need to be complete--change is almost expected--but it should be recognizable. This will hope both them and you--keeps them out of your hair, and gives them an idea of when the best picture might come along.

One other note: the photographer might not be from a team (e.g., media, in which case you will be asked permission) OR not be a scout as such. On 330's scouting crew, I was photographer on several occasions, but pit scout on one or two, and never at the same time. So, they might not have a good reason to ask questions about the robot. What do you do then? Deny them permission? Or let them get a picture of a less-than-perfectly complete robot?

Re: A Courtesy
 

Good grief. It seems to me the sleepless build season has caught up with some of us and awakened the Grouchmonster. When I read Gboehm's post, it looked like a nice, polite entry, and it confounds me how people can be offended by it. "If you want a picture of our robot, just ask and we'd be happy to have it pose for you," is what I got from it.
I realize we've signed away image rights and all that stuff, but if someone was to take my picture, I'd want to be able to prepare for it (lest I become Caption Contest fodder). Depending on the robot's state, it may or may not be in "competition shape" - this would be analogous to taking a picture inside the fitting room at Target. The subject may not be "decent." Furthermore, by asking to take a picture, you will engage a team member who may point out certain intricacies in the robot design or functionality you may have missed.
It doesn't kill anybody to take 3.5 seconds to ask "Hey, do you mind if I take a quick picture?" It's the neighborly thing to do.
Be polite. That's all he's asking.

Re: A Courtesy
 

Certainly it's polite to ask about taking photos - we're not paparazzi! But if someone should be taking a photo without being intrusive, there should be no problem.

Incidentally, for those who said "you signed your rights away" - if you look at the form, I believe you gave permission for FIRST to take pictures. Not Team RedABots. Not Local SkyWitness News, unless they are working with FIRST.

Re: A Courtesy
 

It's one thing to take a picture of something and see how it works... it's quite another to design and manufacture <insert mesmerglobber here> and make it work for your specific application.

And for my specific purposes... take as many pictures of the robot controller as you like... I doubt many of them will help you figure out how the software works inside. :P

-q

(though I do want to post a paper on the autonomous drive system in our robot sometime in the future, along with the quad-ultrasonic driver)

Re: A Courtesy
 

I've always asked before I take pictures of another teams robot, but I guess I never considered it anything other then being polite. I've never had anyone tell me no, usually they tell me a better angle where I'd get a good shot of <insert mechanism here>.

Re: A Courtesy
 

I too am somewhat saddened by the tone of some of the responses. All I was wondering is why Gboehm was so upset by people taking pictures of robots that he'd call it his "pet peeve". I'm trying not to read anything into it, or to assume anything about his feelings. I don't understand the reason behind the comment, and I want to. He didn't say anything about wanting people to ask before looking at robots. I just want to know why using a camera would make a difference to him. It's a simple request for information.

Re: A Courtesy
 

The thing is, "polite" is relative. In some contexts, it's considered rude to interrupt just to say "excuse me", and it's considered polite to quietly do something that doesn't interfere with what others are doing. If someone just wants to take a picture, I would be much happier if they just went ahead and did it than if they had to take my attention away from what I was doing at the time in order to ask for permission.

I still want to know why asking for permission to photograph a robot is something worth worrying about in the first place.

Re: A Courtesy
 

It's not the actual photo of the robot that is the pet peeve, it's the manner some people use to get the photo, if people are working on the bot, is it impossible to wait for them to be done, if you're taking photos of the bots, I'd be willing to guess there are plenty other teams and bots that you can get a snapshot of while you wait, plus talking to the team does usually helps with recon just as much as a photo can, asking about strengths and weaknesses, how things have been going. It works a lot better when you actually try to make contact with the team, at least from my experience.

Re: A Courtesy
 

No, but if you review those often overlooked Amendments, you will realize that any American citizen has the right to take a photo of virtually anything, anywhere.
The Photographers Right

FIRST Regionals are freely open and advertised to the public. Your not in a place with a reasonable expectation of privacy. (IE: Bathroom/ Bedroom)

Re: A Courtesy
 

We sent a sketch artist around one year instead of a photographer.
That worked out really well and were my favorite scouting mementos. It took quite a bit longer than photos, but it was really cool.

When I've taken photos in the past they were not for scouting purposes, but just because I thought the robot was neat. I admit the manners I was raised with lead me to be as unobtrusive and non-disruptive as possible when taking my personal photos. I don't interrupt people working or ask people to step out of the way.
Sometimes the workers don't notice me at all, other times I'll get a glance then be ignored, and of course many step out of the way and invite me closer.

Re: A Courtesy
 

If a team isn't busy, I usually try to strike up a conversation about whatever mechanism I am trying to photograph. If they are working, I usually just take the picture and I'm on my way. I suppose I can see how it would be annoying to have flashes going off left and right while you are trying to work. If the photo is of a cool mechanism on the robot and not random things or team members in the pit, then its not a problem with me.

Re: A Courtesy
 

Any decent camera can shoot at a low AV at high ISO, no Flash required.

Re: A Courtesy
 

This is a thread with a specific request.
It also creates a great opportunity to talk a little bit about how Gracious Professionalism works when interacting with each other during the pressures of competition. I’ve had the pleasure of observing team interactions in FIRST venues such Lone Star and the Championship, and off seasons like Mission Mayhem. In all of these venues, I have noted the presence of respect and patience among the teams in the pit area. The rhythms and nuances of the competition are very evident in the pits and because all the teams are there competing, they are aware of them by and large. When scouting the teams/robots, the exchange of information and the interactions among the team members is valuable. That is where seeds of GP can take root when training new members, working with new rookie teams.

There are ways to develop this area of the team program. One way would be to plan in advance just how the pit crew is going to manage the demands of the robot and the demands of the scouts/visitors/VIPS/judges. We know all of this is going to converge at the same time and we know the stakes, the emotions, the time limits. The more advanced planning regarding how to manage all of this, the better the efficiency of the team and the smoothness of the process with regard to working as a team and also, interacting with others. Veteran teams can help rookie teams learn these subtle aspects of Gracious Professionalism and respect for each other. Veteran team members can train their new members in these areas.

A polite request to take a photo of team’s robot can be a part of this.

Re: A Courtesy
 

well, i can see that you have to ask to take a picture, but what could we do with it exept for studying it? make changes to our bot? (not allowed) Sabotag? (also not allowed

Re: A Courtesy
 

Certainly. But that has nothing to do with the waiver everyone signed.

Re: A Courtesy
 

Personally, I just grab a photo and go. It's not that I have no interest in how your machine works, it's that, even if you explained it to me, I'd have no idea what you were talking about. It does, however, spark my memory as to what I've seen that robot do on the field. Normally, my camera has a flash that can blind everyone in the pits, so if teams see it and want to say something (aka, we're still working on it), I'm happy to take note.

Past that, I don't bother people who are working in the pits. They're trying to get their job done, I'm trying to get mine done. If I go over, interrupt, they will likely (and politely so) try to get everyone out of the way so that I can get a good photo... and it turns into a 5 minute ordeal - not productive for anyone.

Re: A Courtesy
 

In the past, people asking for buttons has been infinitely more annoying to me then people asking for a picture. To those of you who claim that when someone asks to take a picture disturbs your team, Maybe you should have the person who answers all of the judges questions, also answer this question. All you have to say is sure, and go on.

Re: A Courtesy
 

At regionals I try and have my scouts take pictures of the robots in addition to talking to them. However, sometimes the robot isn't there when the pit scouting sheet is filled out, or the scout forgets to take a picture... etc. If thats the case I just send them out to grab a quick picture. It's not that we don't want to talk to you about your robot, its that we already have the sheet filled out and we have a very limited amount of time. As nice as it would be to scout every team several times, the day is only so long.

My two cents.

Re: A Courtesy
 

As for me and our team, I feel honored if someone wants a picture of our robot.
If they want to find out how we did something I will be happy to tell them.
If they want a copy of our drawings, our scouting information, our business plan, our safety plan... our code... whatever.

Sometimes we can't get it to someone right when they ask but we will make every effort to get it to them when we can.

Our team, and many, many others, lives to share the FIRST experience with other teams and anyone else that wants to hear.

I do know that sometimes pit scouts can be overzealous and a little pushy when they are trying to gather information. That is why we keep someone in the pit specifically to talk to them... that is their only job... this way we can get our work done without having to be rude or short with pit scouts.

Please come to our pit... we love company...

B

Re: A Courtesy
 

OK I by no means have any problem with photos. It is a pet peeve of mine, mainly because people take photos without even talking a lot of times. Thats what the pet peeve is. I'm well aware that everyone has has agreed to let things be photographed. Its just to me I always ask before a photograph gets taken. We have posted photos of our robot, I know that. Just be polite and say hi, ask if ya can take a picture and we will let ya into the pit and let ya take as many as you like. By no means am I trying to be secretive. I wanna meet ya and talk to ya. Thats what FIRST is all about.

So what I'm saying is, feel free to get a photo and ask questions. Don't just snap a photo and run!

Also as a note, most scouts are social and that is GREAT!

And what FIRST is about!

Re: A Courtesy
 

This is what I was trying to say Thanks!

Re: A Courtesy
 

I once saw a person fall off a stage because of a flash from a photo. And Being and theatre has made me a little touchy on the subject. I dont want anyone to get hurt, including scouts. Also getting up close and getting a better photo... Maybe I'm just afraid you will see our bad side. :P

Re: A Courtesy
 

But that's what a few people were justifying. Either they don't want to bother you (which you said is fine with you/your team), or they may have filled out info already but forgot to take a photo or you weren't there. I understand what you're saying, just that the wording makes it appear otherwise.

You want people to take photos, but you want to talk to them a little bit.

Re: A Courtesy
 

I never will be an enlish Major, I should have been more clear.

Re: A Courtesy
 

The only real problem I can see when people are taking a picture is if they are getting in the way of the work going on, if the flash they are using is causing a problem, or if the person working on the robot is shy...

or... if they up to something sneaky.

Of course if todays society your photographed or videotaped a hundred times a day without anyone asking or in most cases you not even knowing.
I understand in the UK it even worst.

Big Brother is watching! :ahh:

Re: A Courtesy
 

I guess I was the "scout" last year as member on a rookie team. I always felt rather rude to just walk up to a teams pit and start snapping pictures. If you ask, most teams will greet you warmly (if they are not busy frantically building!) and even let you in their pits and to a better position to photograph.

Just be polite and remember to have a good time!

-Vivek

p.s. when I read the starter's post, it seemed not very rude at all... I don't see what there is to be offended about.

Re: A Courtesy
 

Okay, that makes sense. It sounds like you're concerned with an unexpected flash getting in people's eyes. I agree -- if your camera is going to shine a sudden bright light in someone's direction, it certainly would be courteous to ask permission first. I understand clearly how a camera flash with no warning could be an issue.

On the other hand, I don't recall seeing any camera flashes in the pits at the St. Louis regional. A decent digital camera takes perfectly adequate pictures using ambient light without a flash. Reflections from metal robot parts can seriously disrupt a photograph anyway, so I'd prefer not to use a flash in any case.

Re: A Courtesy
 

I agree, you should definitely ask before taking a picture of the robot. Last year at the Long Island Regional a team went around and took pictures of all the robots and posted them on a board at the regional for scouting purposes. But the thing is that at the time they took the picture our robot was in pieces so the picture only showed a frame, drive train, electronics and wheels. If they asked us first I am sure that we could have explained that this was not the best time and they could come back later to get a good picture of the robot.

Re: A Courtesy
 

I still don't see a problem..

Re: A Courtesy
 

At my next regional, I am going to ask each and every
robot if it minds if I take its picture. I'll take the lack
of any response as tacit approval.

Eugene

Re: A Courtesy
 

Why has this become such an issue that it goes on for three pages? Is it really too much to ask for someone to request a picture? It takes two seconds. You probably say thousands of words that day. Is it really too hard to say a few more? Remember, you don't have to understand a request to oblige to it. If someone asks you to hold the door for them, do you ask why? No, you hold the door for them without asking. Why should this be any different? Just knowing that there are people who request that you ask, should be enough reason to ask. You shouldn't have to know why, or have to agree with them. Just remember to ask.

Re: A Courtesy
 

It might add only two seconds of the photographer's time, but it takes a lot more than two seconds from the person being asked permission from. I would rapidly become very irritated if everyone who just wanted a snapshot of our team's robot had to interrupt me and get my attention first. Maybe I'm just unusally sensitive to what I consider pointless disruptions, but I think it seems much more polite to take the photo without undue fuss than to turn the process into a ritual.
The problem with that simple advice is that there are people who would prefer that you not bother them just to ask for permission to take a picture. I myself don't understand why anyone would think they need permission to take a picture of a robot at a competition in the first place.

However, it's now apparent that the original poster's request wasn't strictly about taking photos without asking first. It was about taking flash photos without asking first. That's a good point, and something I agree with completely.

Re: A Courtesy
 

Just a sidenote that Alan reminded me of: Please do not going from team to team asking if they have buttons. It is something that we get a lot and our team can't afford to spend money on frivolous things such as buttons. We would love to be able to, but we can't. One time I recall, we were in need of a major fix and we had (what seemed like) 50 people come through within an hour just asking for buttons.

An idea to all, how about posting your preference if your preference is strong. If you really do or don't want them to ask, post it under your team number. I doubt anyone will see it as rude. Also, I know that a lot of the teams out there have at least 1 person to spare for answering questions. Why not have the safety person do that? That is who I would tend to ask. They are required to be there, and yet are not usually the most involved in the actual work. That makes them a perfect candidate for questions.

Re: A Courtesy
 

Your not unusually sensitive, you are spot on.

My shutter has chattered away the entire SD regional, and nobody has said a word.

A Couple of Notes.....
 

A suggestion I would make as an alternative to posting the preference here would be to post something visible in your pit area if you have a very strong preference on photography of your robot, or of team members. Not everybody reads Chief Delphi, and if it is a concern to your team, that might be a good way of dealing with it. The other thing I would mention would be if you are really concerned about this issue or have strong feelings one way or another it might be worth coming to a consensus, at least with the mentors.

Now, onto what I have seen mentioned only briefly, with this statement. While much of the photography that goes on in the pit area is likely due to teams scouting or taking photos, occasionally there are outside people that come in to take pictures. They could be anybody from some of the VIP's who want to take some photos home so they remember the competition to news crews to somebody hired by FIRST or volunteering with FIRST to take promotional and/or event related pictures. For all you might say something on CD about not wanting pictures taken without somebody asking one way or another, these people might not know that they should be concerned or that your team has a preference. Many times they will likely ask, but sometimes they might not. Just some food for thought.

Flash photography, just like noise makers or other, similar devices, I would think presents a potential safety hazard. This is because even if you warn the team you are taking a picture of, there is the potential with a flash that the teams around them could be distracted. A possible solution might be to present the idea of having no flash photography in the pit area due to safety concerns to FIRST.

Re: A Courtesy
 

Lets see now:

We are going to have signs in pits that say please don't take pictures of our robot without permission.
We are going to have signs in pits that say please don't ask for buttons.
We are going to have signs in pits saying don't bother us for help, we are far to focused on "our" robot to answer questions or render assistance to another team.

I think that as we project these views we are
forgetting the true purpose of the FRC activity.

Re: A Courtesy
 

Spot on you are.

Re: A Courtesy
 

The last one is definitely un-FIRST behavior. But the first two has absolutely nothing to do with the views of FIRST. Think about what FIRST stands for and you will notice that it does not make a note on buttons period. They are a nice little gimmick that some teams give out. Does that mean that people should expect them from all of the teams? No, if they see them then take one. If you don't see one, then there probably isn't any to get from asking. As for the asking for permission for the pictures, this would increase the amount of interaction between viewiers and teams. That would further the views of FIRST.

Side Note: If someone asks you for a picture and you don't mind, say go ahead and get back to work if you don't have time to talk. Nobody would take that as rude. They would understand. And thus would only take a few seconds.

Secondary Side Note: I originally meant that the preferences should be posted at the event.

Re: A Courtesy
 

OK. As a person who has scouted, I find it much easier to just take a quick photo without having to interupt the team. I might wait until someone moves somewhere else so I can get a better shot, but I don't tend to ask them to move. It's their pit, and I'm trying to be as unoticable as possible.

As a person working in the pit, I don't care one way or the other if they ask for permission or not. It's like if they want to talk, sure. If they sneak by and take a pic, great!

I think everyone is making to big of deal out of such a small issue.