New FTC Platform
 

Well, I have been really excited about the growth of the vex platform. In particular, I think the new WiFi control system is going to allow some amazing designs. However, I now see this about the new FTC platform:

http://firsttechchallenge.blogspot.com

-StarGazer

Re: New FTC Platform
 

This looks pretty cool. New metal, new brain, aluminum gears. Should make for some interesting machines.

Re: New FTC Platform
 

This is a partial confirmation of what I suspected was going on. Notice that there is no mention of IFI. Seams this confirms the split. I believe NI did the development work for LEGO this explains the thread on NI this past fall. Now the question is do you do a VEX competition or a FTC competition?

Re: New FTC Platform
 

Color me perplexed that FIRST would announce something as major as a platform change for one of their competitions on a Blogger account that I can't find linked to anywhere on usfirst.org. The information presented seems to jive with everything we've been hearing through the grapevine (and heck, the guy in the video is doing a pull-up on a field-spec overpass), but I'm holding out a little bit longer to be certain. (Can someone more familiar with the building confirm whether that paint scheme on the wall is seen in FIRST Place?)

Whichever better inspires your team. In my mind, either can be a viable option.

Re: New FTC Platform
 

I think a main concern for teams is the cost of the new kit. A lot of teams poured money into VEX thinking it will last them a long time. Now that a new kit is the platform for FTC, many smaller teams will not be able to afford enough parts. Since FIRST is working with several providers for the parts rather than IFI Robotics, I think it shows that it would cost a great deal more than the $300 VEX starter kit.

Another concern is the use of machining and powertools. VEX was great because you could build your entire competition bot with a wrench and two allen keys (which I did), and can still be extremely competitive. If the new platform requires a lot of machining like in FRC, this will put teams without access to the proper tools at a huge disadvantage.

Another thing I'd like to point out is the time issue. Many students do FTC rather than FRC because it is a lot less time consuming. This is an especially big factor for seniors. With VEX I've always said you can build a competitive robot in one day (and I've proved this). If this new kit is a lot more time consuming, many teams will choose not to do it.

There are my three points about the new platform. Of course, I don't know anything about the new platform I just based this on

"We're making the change to give our teams the raw material they need to solve real robotics challenges that exist today. The new kit is a true robotics prototyping platform. It includes a variety of components from sensors, to motors, to metal, that represent current technology."


One thing I have to point out. I love the aluminum gears as well as the extremely powerful aluminum.

As of now both IFI and FTC Competitions look appealing.


Wow, I never even considered the idea that this could be a hoax. If it is, its got to be the best hoax I've ever seen XD

I've just noticed that stargazer, the CD member who posted this blog has 1 post and just joined. Could mean nothing...

Re: New FTC Platform
 

It is not a hoax. It is a blog being written by Ken Johnson (Program Director) to provide information to FTC teams about the change in platform. It was released to Affiliate Partners and Regional Directors yesterday. An official announcement will go out to teams early next week.

Re: New FTC Platform
 

hey we might get to use pneumatics :D

but seriously i run a small team on a 1K budget, if i need power tools, thats my budget gone, wheres the kit!? i'd rather stick with FIRST but i think they're forcing me to go with a vex competition

Re: New FTC Platform
 

If you need help with powertools, you could just find an FRC team in your area.

Re: New FTC Platform
 

true but only (i think i havent found anyone else) team here in burlington is my FTC team and Rambotics (m.m. robinson high school which is half an hour from my house :D my brothers go that school but i wont) but i doubt ill really be able to borrow power tools

Re: New FTC Platform
 

Next question: How is the split going to affect this forum? At the moment FTC/FVC is a sub-folder of Vex. I hope that questions regarding Vex can still be posted and answered here, even if it's not a formal FIRST program.

Re: New FTC Platform
 

Last I heard, Intelitek was planning on having a program for the new platform. PITSCO is the maker of ROBOLAB, the old RCX program. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe they also made the NXT Software, based off of LabView. Will we be able to program in multiple languages for the new FTC platform I wonder?

Metal gears will be nice, the plastic ones breaking and slipping get on my nerves. I am curious how this will affect cost.

Does this mean it will look like an NXT, or will the "brick" look different?

Re: New FTC Platform
 

You can always try www.vexlabs.com. They have a great forum and questions usually get answered extremely fast.

I'm hoping a team will step up and make a forum like CD deticated to FTC. There are around 800 teams (I think) for FTC now, it would be nice to have another forum. Also a bluealliance or SOAP (video archiving) for FTC would be nice as well. I don't have the skill or time to do this =S.

Re: New FTC Platform
 

...or it could be that I am a regular forum member who didn't want my name on the post :)

While it hasn't been officially announced, I was told that it could be communicated at this time.

Everything isn't settled yet as they are still looking to get feedback on kits that have been distributed before they settle on the official kit contents. I am particularly interested in the controller. I was told that the system is based on NXT with 10x more memory and around 40% faster than the vex (processor speed?). If it uses an ARM processor like the LEGO NXT it could be quite capable. Their cost target for a kit is $1000 (I don't know what they plan to include and what extras will be available).

The cost of $1000 is going to be a real issue for some programs.

-StarGazer

Re: New FTC Platform
 

$1000? That's pretty steep for FTC. I know a lot of the teams here in RI could never afford something like that. Even the Vex kits they have were purchased and donated by the state, and I don't know if they'd be thrilled with spending 3 times as much after only 2 years on the old system.

Re: New FTC Platform
 

While this is very sad to hear (but not unexpected), there will always be a home for Vex teams in the Milwaukee (and beyond) area, with either the Milwaukee Vex League or IFI's Vex competition.

Re: New FTC Platform
 

your wish is being answered :D

Re: New FTC Platform
 

There are a lot of teams who have invested a lot of money in to Vex kits.

FTC was supposed to be the low-cost robot competition, in order to get FIRST into more high schools.

This new platform only causes teams to go out, and replace everything they already own with $1000+ of new stuff. That's not cheap.

I don't know about you, but I know of several teams who are more willing to stick with their financial investments (in Vex) than they are with FTC. Especially with free Vex competitions like Savage Soccer and Bridge Battle that utilize the Vex kits, and provide as much challenge and inspiration as anything from FTC.

I do not see any reason why the current Vex platform is outdated, unnecessary, or otherwise needs to be replaced with a new system. Some parts might be upgradeable, but it does not need to be outright replaced. Therefore, this represents an intentional decision to force FTC teams to purchase an entirely new system and take on the financial burden.

That is not the right decision for a program that's supposed to be the 'low-cost competition'.

FIRST is still great, but if they continue to make misguided decisions and hope everyone will just blindly swallow them to stay with FIRST, they are mistaken. We all love FIRST, but we all have other assets and the like to look after. And in the end, the decisions we make will be for our students, for their inspiration.

I'll still be involved with volunteering and being involved at FTC events, but I really can't put my heart behind this decision for new kits.

Re: New FTC Platform
 

Its still to early to do anything yet but me and basicxman have been talking about this on the vex forum.

Re: New FTC Platform
 

It is a good thing they are starting to tell us about the expensive kit now. Time to fundraise!

I hope with the new kit, the tournament gets altered. Regtangular field, teams on both sides of the field rather than on 2 joined sides. More FRC-like. It is so hard to see the action on an FTC field.

FTC is still an in-expensive option for competing. $1k is still much less than starting up an FRC team. FTC is in-expensive, but VEX is now the "value" competition.

Re: New FTC Platform
 

Right now this is mostly in the realm of theory with not a lot of concrete info to make an informed evaluation.

When this goes official I will explain my thoughts on this in great detail.

It should be interesting.

Re: New FTC Platform
 

FTC Lab is up and running, free for users to sign-up
http://ftc.theroboticsuniverse.com

Re: New FTC Platform
 

Wow. We just recieved a donation of 3K+ worth of vex parts. Hope we can still use them.

I hope that the system is close to vex, with some upgrades. The new controller sounds nice, but it also sounds like the coding will be much further from FRC than vex's is. The new hardware looks strong, but it also looks like there is more machining involved.

I see what looks like legos in the background of the gear picture. This suggests that FTC will become "open" with materials, as FRC has. Quite honestly, I see this as moving in the opposite direction from what FTC should be: An alternative to FRC for teams without the expertise, tools, or finances avalible to them. The base kit can be great, but if it is completely open, then financially well off teams will have an advantage. It would be like giving enough kitbot parts in the KOP to theoretically build a robot, with the versitality of vex, and then only asking nicely for teams to not CNC a robot from scratch.


I hope that FIRST knows what they're doing here :(

Re: New FTC Platform
 

hmm this sure shows some cause for alarm. The teams we have had already spent more than a decent 5 digit sum on vex parts over the last few years.

Besides the point, a slightly more open relaxed restriction on materials (like metal bars, etc) would be great. Like we would all be limited to using vex electrical system and motor count limit, but we should be able to use our own alu/steel plates and bars. Makes no sense to keep purchasing overpriced metal.

If better motors and gears are provided as an upgrade option, I'm all out for it coz the current inventory does limit ones' possible designs. A wider range of sensors and better rotational encoders would be great too. Remember seeing low cost encoders around USD$30 each .. provides greater resolution too. Another possible thing would be mountable potentiometers and long range (1m?) IR rangefinders.

I hope the WiFi link does support computer communication. How about Ethernet? :D My embedded x86 platforms are rotting on the shelves.

Re: New FTC Platform
 

Several people have mentioned that this new kit will make it more like the FRC. Now I thought the FRC and the FTC were catering to different groups of people. The FTC is not supposed to be mini FRC. It is meant to be simpler cheaper and just as inspiring. Right now it is. I hope it still is in the future but I am doubtful.

Re: New FTC Platform
 

I have a hard time with the wording of the announcement.

"The new kit is a true robotics prototyping platform. It includes a variety of components from sensors, to motors, to metal, that represent current technology. This is not a toy."

Not a toy? Is this a bash on Vex? Last I checked VEX has motors, sensors and metal. They may not be the most complex but I believe this to keep the cost down. Are you saying that I have not been doing any engineering for the last three years and instead have been playing with toys?

"Stronger metal allows teams to build robots that can withstand a lot of abuse - consistent with real world applications" Why is it that we abuse our robots? In the FRC I have seen to many robots become "defensive" by smashing into other robots. Where is the engineering in being a driving brick? I like the fact that Vex does not have the power to become this robot.

I find this announcement lacking in gracious professionalism and off the mark of FIRST's mission.

Re: New FTC Platform
 

So it could be that you violated CD forum rules by creating an alias account, just so you could scoop the FTC official announcement. GP at it's finest.

Re: New FTC Platform
 

I agree about violating CD rules about creating an alias account, however, the APs were told we could make an announcement to all of our teams on Thursday, and that the official announcement would be made next week. So I don't think this was any kind of scoop, really.

Re: New FTC Platform
 

First of all I really like the First organization and competition format. They stand for a the right stuff. I don't want to be too judgemental until I hear more about the new fomat. BUT,

I agree with the concerns of additional costs and time requirements of students that are already taxed with school work. We had a constant problem getting students to build meetings because of other commitments. Many just don't have the time to commit to an FRC type format.

In a time of school budgets that are being reduced the cost of the new new format will discourage schools from getting involved. Also in our area many students are being put into portable class rooms with no access to any special power tools. That was one of the attactive features of the Vex format. We had 2 teams design and build there robots using minimal power tools, in a portable class room.

For several years the company that sponsors my FTC teams sponsored an FRC team. Because of the expense, the dificulty of getting a facility with the proper tool, space requirements and mulitple schools to form a single team with enough students, the teams would work for a year or two and then folded. Another problem they had was attracting teachers to sponsor the teams. We only have one teacher willing to stay after school and put in the hours required.
Now the company sponsors 4 teams from 2 schools and was planning on expanding to 1-2 more schools next year. With the added expense of the new format they may only have funding for 1 team for each of the existing 2 schools. I'm sure that our sponsors will step back and take a hard look at supporting the Vex run competition. Its just sounds like more bang for the buck.

Something that I have not seen any comments about was team size. In the new format will the team size still be restricted to 10. I would hope that it would increase to 20 because the tasks will be more involved.

I think that the improvements in sensor and gears would be nice, but I'm not sure they will be worth the cost.

Re: New FTC Platform
 

First of all I really like the First organization and competition format. They stand for a the right stuff. I don't want to be too judgemental until I hear more about the new fomat. BUT,

I agree with the concerns of additional costs and time requirements of students that are already taxed with school work. We had a constant problem getting students to build meetings because of other commitments. Many just don't have the time to commit to an FRC type format.

In a time of school budgets that are being reduced the cost of the new new format will discourage schools from getting involved. Also in our area many students are being put into portable class rooms with no access to any special power tools. That was one of the attactive features of the Vex format. We had 2 teams design and build there robots using minimal power tools, in a portable class room.

For several years the company that sponsors my FTC teams sponsored an FRC team. Because of the expense, the dificulty of getting a facility with the proper tool, space requirements and mulitple schools to form a single team with enough students, the teams would work for a year or two and then folded. Another problem they had was attracting teachers to sponsor the teams. We only have one teacher willing to stay after school and put in the hours required.

Now the company sponsors 4 teams from 2 schools and was planning on expanding to 1-2 more schools next year. With the added expense of the new format they may only have funding for 1 team for each of the existing 2 schools. I'm sure that our sponsors will step back and take a hard look at supporting the Vex run competition. Its just sounds like more bang for the buck.

Something that I have not seen any comments about was team size. In the new format will the team size still be restricted to 10. I would hope that it would increase to 20 because the tasks will be more involved.

I think that the improvements in sensor and gears would be nice, but I'm not sure they will be worth the cost.

Re: New FTC Platform
 

OK, I withdraw my comments about "scooping" a FIRST official announcement. But I still wonder, if StarGazer had permission to publicize it, why a surrogate account was needed.

FIRST did this a couple years ago with FLL, switching from RCX to NXT (which was promted by the LEGO Corp decision to change controllers). At that time a transition period was implemented, allowing either controller to be used. Teams and schools that had a significant investment in LEGO parts based on the RCX were allowed to continue using it. In fact, a point bonus was given to RCX users the last two years in recognition of the NXT's superior capabilities.

Will there be any transition period in FTC so that either VEX or the new components can be used?

Re: New FTC Platform
 

Actually, in more cases than not, the RCX-NXT transition backfired. Most "elite" FLL teams ran to the NXT all excited during the first year of it, and found it horribly inferior to the RCX. Teams were making drastic changes to their robots just to change it back to RCX parts, and there were a great number more RCXs in 2007 than 2006. I know that the teams that I have been involved with, and many others, have not invested in NXT parts at all since the initial release, and plan to continue using RCXs for as long as they are allowed to. The free points is just an added bonus.

Re: New FTC Platform
 

From the announcement:

(emphasis mine)
It seems that you can at least still use the metal from previous years, which may end up being of some use to a lot of teams. Please don't make assumptions that teams will be spending tons of money on parts just yet. We still know very little of this new system, or the rules of the robots for that matter. :rolleyes:

Re: New FTC Platform
 

New info just posted on the blog about answering some questions people here on Delphi and vex forum had.

Re: New FTC Platform
 

Ding Ding Ding! I think we have a winner here. From this statement, it seems to me that FIRST's thoughts on VEX are that it is essentially a jazzed up toy. Tell that to the many, many students learning from VEX or the school systems that have invested ten thousand(+) in VEX for their school systems.

All this is going to do is split people. You have the hundreds of current FTC teams using VEX that have invested a lot into this platform. They're not going to change when events are still prevalent and honestly just cheaper to run because they're not going through the "FIRST Machine."

Why the switch? Probably because FIRST just wasn't happy with the results they got from VEX. I don't know why though, plenty of students were being inspired using that system. Perhaps it wasn't attracting the fan base they thought it would. Either way, I don't think I can support any kind of platform that has been designed and developed to replace a perfectly valid solution that obviously works.

Re: New FTC Platform
 

The switch has also likely been influenced by the apparent break-up between FIRST and IFI.

Re: New FTC Platform
 

I pretty much put up all the money myself for the VEX team that I was sponsoring. It was a small team from our FRC team. I hope that I can find sponsors that do not take too much away from the FRC team. The kits need to be out in the summer so we can actually see the costs and know what type of fund raising we would need to do.

I am going to look for more VEX only competitions to keep the kids interested.

I am saddened by this change, but people will adapt. I wonder if FIRST will lower the cost of entry fees to help offset the cost of the new platform for teams?

Re: New FTC Platform
 

Without siding on either side in this post (even though I personally love Vex and what it does), does it not seem apparent that chances are the new control system for this platform will be one and the same with the new FRC control system? (Edit: Or highly similiar)

Re: New FTC Platform
 

I expect so. I also don't think it makes much difference except for the FRC teams that look upon FTC as an entry-level program to train freshmen. To the FTC-only teams commonality with FRC only helps if it makes parts cheaper.

EDITD: Chaotic makes a good point. Didn't mean to sound like I was minimizing the comment -- I think he's right on.

Re: New FTC Platform
 

Looking positive:

Good Things (confirmed)
-Stronger Metal[0]
-Stronger gears[0]
-Re-use of VEX metal is allowed[1]
-Same-scale field, so the robots aren't getting substantially larger (and the venues required aren't, either)[3]

Hopeful Things (possible based on evidence so far)
-Same battery voltage (7.2v) points to possible VEX motor re-use[2]*
-VEX sensors appear to simply output electrical signals (analog or digital) not tied to any particular controller, so if the new controller has PWMs as inputs, then re-use of those may be possible as well*
-VEX always had "just the controller" package[4], perhaps this one will too. If that is true, AND motor/sensor re-use is allowed, then existing teams may be able to just buy the controller.

*Both of these, however, would require FTC to allow motor and sensor re-use in their rules.

Sources:
0: http://firsttechchallenge.blogspot.c...-platform.html
1: "You can keep using the metal you have from the previous kit as well." from [0]
2: "Batteries used with Vex will work" from http://firsttechchallenge.blogspot.c...-concerns.html
3: "FTC will continue to use the 12' x 12' playing field" from http://firsttechchallenge.blogspot.c...-concerns.html
4: http://www.vexlabs.com/vex-robotics-...ming-kit.shtml

Re: New FTC Platform
 

How disappointing to not hear about improvements for the sensors and motors... yet.
- Better Encoders
- Potentiometer
- IR Rangefinder
- limit switch with wheel/ball
- Larger variety of motors (e.g. high torque, linear, high speed, 360deg servos, etc
- digital compass

Re: New FTC Platform
 

There is a Vex pot now, and the newer encoders are quadrature. Were you thinking of something else?

EDITED: There are parts still missing, but these two showed up some time this season.

Re: New FTC Platform
 

Now if they would only repackage some IR range finders.

Re: New FTC Platform
 

or even better, just change the rules to allow a certain model of IR rangefinder. Used some sharp GP2D12s on a home made bot.. the pins and voltages are similar.

Re: New FTC Platform
 

Bump: There's a new post up describing the new modem/control system. Short version: bluetooth allows for more simultaneous matches, and the use of a wider variety of controllers (video game controllers).

Re: New FTC Platform
 

Bluetooth? Hmm. That 2.4 band is getting crowded. This needs to be tested so everyone that's going to Atlanta, make sure you have your cyborg bluetooth headset on and go over to the FTC area while they're using the new system and make a bunch of calls. Then to realy test it lets have some people set up some pre n networks and see if the bluetooth can take it.

Re: New FTC Platform
 

Personally i'd favour 802.11g instead of bluetooth. Longer (reliable) range, higher power, a larger range of channels to use (14+ channels). And much faster data rate.. you could actually run an Ethernet cam on ur bot.

Re: New FTC Platform
 

Vexlabs is going with G so we do have a choice. Will be interesting to see which aproach works best in a competion.

Re: New FTC Platform
 

cool :P I have a half hacked Fon router with serial output meant to couple serial devices to wifi.. but oh well thats gonna be redundant soon

Re: New FTC Platform
 

I can't believe FIRST is even thinking of moving away form Vex. If Vex had been around a couple years earlier, I think my original school would still be in FIRST. I've been using and working with some Vex teams the last two years, and the students love it. It's pretty cheap, still challenging, doesn't need a machine shop, the school can do it with teachers and students without needing engineers, and they don't have to spend the year fundraising. If everyone seems to like it, and all the teams I talked to at the LA vex event december seem to really like it, why would FIRST switch. I don't get it. The school I work with already spent a lot of money on it, and the students get a lot out of it, so we won't be switching to something else - there's no reason to.
Plus, I'm much more excited about the wifi system Vex announced than the bluetooth system announced hear. I'd trust wifi over bluetooth any day. I don't get it, bad decision FIRST, just doesn't make sense.

Re: New FTC Platform
 

You know, MarkJ, you started me thinking -- I don't believe I've heard or read anything from an FTC team about wanting to replace Vex as the platform. I've heard requests for more-powerful motors and certain sensors, but never, "this platform is awful, we need to ditch it." I wonder where the idea to completely replace Vex came from? So far, the response on the forums has been about 10- to-1 against.

Re: New FTC Platform
 

Remember there are some high level politics involved with this decision. For those who don't know FIRST is not using IFI's robot control system in the FRC after this year. IFI is also the owner of VEX.

Re: New FTC Platform
 

See my post in the general forum for my thoughts on this subject.

Re: New FTC Platform
 

I'm as much out of the loop as anyone but have been trying to process this in a way that makes some sense to me, wanting to believe in the best of both FIRST and Vex. I am basing my conjectures on observations of FVC/FTC events vs. independent Vex events (i.e. Bridge Battle).

Fact: "Divorces" often occur over disagreements about money.
Fact: FIRST (FTC/FVC) registration costs $275/team. In contrast, there is no registration cost for the Vex Bridge Battle Competition (other than individual tournament fees).
Fact: FIRST has offered steep discounts on Vex kits ($375 bundle kit in 2006, 2 X $219 starter kits in 2007). In contrast, Vex at this time is not offering any quantity discounts (I asked), unlike Radio Shack, which offered at least 10% off on quantity purchases.

Conjecture: I am guessing that Vex would like FIRST to discount (decrease) its registration fee, while FIRST would like to see Vex offer discounts on equipment sold to registered teams, and this might be one of the causes of the break-up. Of course, this could be completely off; I could be in the dark about some huge elephant which is being kept in the closet.

On one hand, I can see why Vex might not want to discount its equipment – it sells quality products at a reasonable price, and the FVC/FTC discounts, along with the 50% Radio Shack sale a few years ago have produced continual expectations of unrealistically low prices. On the other hand, I understand why FIRST charges such steep registration fees. In addition to maintaining the full-time staff and having a budget for program development, the Affiliate Partner infrastructure costs something (conference calls, training), even though AP's are volunteers. This ensures that the quality of official FIRST events is high and somewhat uniform. I have coached FLL and FVC teams for 5 years and feel that what we paid in FIRST registration fees has been more than worth the money.

I have participated in a low-budget robotics program, and know that you often get what you pay for. For example, at one event, the competition field was specified to be 40" long in the official manual but was only 30" long at the event we attended. There were field objects that were supposed to weigh 7 ounces; the actual weight was 64 ounces. My team had a good experience at this event because I had warned the team ahead of time not to compare this event to a FIRST event (and perhaps because they took home 2 trophies). However, had there been more teams and higher expectations, this could have been a disaster.

It had always been my hope that FIRST and IFI would "kiss and make up" at the 11th hour, but this hope was dashed with the announcement of the new system. FVC was a partnership of the best program with the best system (IMHO), and the breakup will hurt them both, and the students most of all. But I also believe that both FTC and Vex will survive, and so will the students. Now there will be more choices, and I suppose that will be a good thing. But I will miss everyone in Atlanta.

Re: New FTC Platform
 

Well I guess there are many reasons for the split..

Keeping an open mind, I personally won't mind a more powerful processor if the features justify the price. Anyone dreamed of using a full x86 processor for higher level logic, Java programmable, handling vision processing, and using common storage like USB drives and SD cards, with multiple user-programmable co-processors for low level PIDs? Intelligent motors with integrated encoders and monitoring functions? Maybe even a prototype Field Positioning System functioning like an in-door gps for competitions?

My take is that while FIRST pushes things to higher levels of complexity, offering wider choices of things to use, etc etc, the demand for low-cost robotics competitions is still there. Especially in times like now when the economy isn't exactly doing very well.

IFI could further leverage on the current situation by seriously ironing out existing quirks with the Vex system, and/or lowering cost of the steel and plastic stuff (ok I don't know if its right to say that, but these parts manufactured in China is pretty low cost right). Credit goes to them for choosing WiFi, hope they pull it off nicely (P.S. where to get Vex proto boards?)

As for FIRST, my only guess why they are inclined on bluetooth is the ease of integration. I've played with serial-BT devices before and they are like, a drop-in replacement for a point-to-point serial link. Coz the interface on those bluetooth endpoints are just TTL serial. The drawback, though, is the limit on transfer rate. We'll still be stuck with like what, 115kbps streams (lol). Unless its native bluetooth, then yeah the cap is increased and we've more possibilities.

Metal gears and such definitely allows more possibilities. Thats if they are putting it together such that, we can make FRC-sized bots out of a kit. Otherwise with small vex sized bots (thats subjective, but to be specific I meant 18"x18"x18" bots), I think plastic is cheaper and (when properly engineered) as reliable as metal parts.
(P.S. There are actually gears of higher density than current vex gears right? anyone come across?)

Whatever their decisions are, I guess its up to the school / students to have their take on who they would support (like, BluRay vs HD). Who knows, maybe years later, FIRST still has FRC being popular and Vex allows lower barriers to entry for those starting out to learn more about robotics?

Re: New FTC Platform
 

I'm much more excited about the wifi possibilities. About metal gears and stuff, why? It's not needed. Why would we want to build FRC-sized bots in FTC, isn't that what FRC is for? The reason I got a school to agree to start a vex team next year is because it was small enough to do in the room, they didn't need a machine shop, it was pretty cheap and it was safe for kids to work with. Bigger and stronger robots just moves away from that, which is why I hope FIRST realizes Vex is perfect for classroom use and keeps it.

Re: New FTC Platform
 

The Field is going to be the same size so you can assume that the robots will be roughly the same size as VEX.

You aren't going to need a machine shop with the new kit either. I don't see anything in the limited information given to us that would not make this new kits just as easy to use in a classroom.

Re: New FTC Platform
 

And just to note, vex just released quad encoders (are they as faulty as old encoders?) and potentiometers. like FINALLY they have potentiometers...:D

Re: New FTC Platform
 

New post up on the blog.

Highlights:
-The 7.2V batteries will be wired in series to give 14.4V (the new motors run at 12V)
-A robot constructed with the new equipment will be robust enough to tow an office chair (see video).

Well, there goes my optimism that you'll be able to use VEX sensors and motors. Hopefully they'll still allow complete vex kits to compete a la RCX units in FLL.

Re: New FTC Platform
 

This does not look good. They are using an NXT controller with an add on. I looked at NXT sensor prices they are pretty steep. I can build my own sensors if I want. Do you know any electrical engineers who want to mentor my team? I know we are supposed to get engineers to help support the team but their schedules and mine don't coexist. I run the team after school because I have family commitments. We will meet sometimes during weekends but that presents other issues. I really enjoyed FTC/FVC because it gave me a taste of FRC without it taking over my life. I really do not like where this is heading.

Re: New FTC Platform
 

Someone on the FTC blog site brought up a really great point I hadn't thought of about the new FTC kit having bigger motors and metal gears - it's now a much more dangerous kit than the Vex platform is.

The new kit sounds more like FRC. But for classroom use, the Vex kit is clearly the safer and more proven option. I thought FVC was meant to be a bridge between FLL and FRC, now it seems the new platform is really a possible cheaper alternative to FRC, not a low cost bridge to it. I can't recommend the new platform over Vex to middle schools or high schools I want to work with. Vex is cheaper, is safer, is high quality, is proven and really seems ideal for the classroom. Plus I like Vex a lot, so there's no reason to change unless something better and cheaper comes out - which the new platform is not.

Re: New FTC Platform
 

This does not look good. It seems they are both stepping up the mechanical/mahcining requirements, while at the same time dumming down the software/electrical system, unless of course you have access to electrical engineers.

I will state again that I have had considerably less than satifactory experiences in FLL with NXTs. Their memory capabilities are quite low, even for FLL. I cannot imagine running an FTC/FRC style robot off of one.

Once again, they have dissed vex. I don't have access to our robot now, but I do have a similar chair, and would be very interested to see if our 4 motor, direct driven chassis can do the same. I'm betting it does so easily. Vex motors and hardware have already been proven to be able to easily lift FVC robots. What "challenges not possible in the past" are they possibly planning? Bowling balls?

Great point. When working with Vex, I feel a sense of saftey that if my fingers go somewhere bad, they will stall the motors. This kit looks like the chain incident at the Florida regional waiting to happen, if it is marketed to the same audience as FTC currently is.

I'm losing my sense of optimism with each blog post :(

Re: New FTC Platform
 

This leaves me thinking a little differently about the matter:

It seems like you're not going to have to depend on NXT sensors, unless FIRST is playing fast and loose with the definition of "terminal block".

Of course, as with everything else dealing with this platform switch, I'm withholding judgment until I see these things playing Quad Quandary in Atlanta.

Re: New FTC Platform
 

Which means, people have to start off with an NXT brain I guess. Plus an additional coprocessor.

I believe its cheaper and less costly to have just 18Fxxxx devices. Its easyC compatible too. Not to mention free samples for prototyping..

Re: New FTC Platform
 

They are going to play QQ with the new FTC kit. I will have to see this.

As I said over on the VEX forum this concerns me even more. Especially with it sounding like we are using a Stock NXT brain. I would like to see some more of the structure of these robots too.

As far as it being more dangerous, you're probably right but at the same time it can only get so dangerous. I find it really hard to hurt myself with VEX, besides the nicks to my hands etc. But I don't think you will really be able to hurt yourself with the new stuff.

As rocketperson said, I really do believe that the VEX kit is more powerful from what we have seen. Either that or the people who built the demonstration robot did not build it for pulling around chairs. If so then what did they build it for?

Re: New FTC Platform
 

I'm in total agreement here: is the point of the FTC and FRC changeover to more closely (maybe not perfectly) align the FLL/FTC/FRC controllers and sensors to make the sensor/software/control side of things more similar? That way as the kids move up from FLL they won't have to completely relearn the programming end.

This is my third year as an FRC mentor and I can attest to how intimidated FLL veterans were by the thought of programming an FRC robot. (I feel like I'm just getting a handle on it now.) Kids who wrote programs to do pretty complicated things in FLL just won't attempt programming in FRC even with similar sensors because there's so much to learn about the controller.

Re: New FTC Platform
 

Currently the jump from FLL programming to VEX isn't that big. EasyC uses blocks like Lego and is pretty self explanatory. Also with VEX you can use other programs like MpLab to progam the controller to get more of a C coding feel. It's the same with FRC so the jump from FTC to FRC with respect to coding isn't that big. It just gets a little more complicated.

Re: New FTC Platform
 

I like the idea of the three systems becoming a bit more seamless. It will be nice for the many many kids coming up from FLL to FTC. They will see parts that they are familiar with. I can't tell you how many parents can to me with questions about jumping from FLL to FTC when we did a demo at the Virginia competition at James Madison University. Growth for FIRST isn't going to come from teachers and admin asking for a team, it's going to come from parents demanding a team at the high school. If we can keep more of the students in FLL through FTC and eventually to FRC we will see exponential growth.

Re: New FTC Platform
 

ROBOTC, which is now available for NXT, Vex, and was offered free to FRC teams this season, could have been the glue that bound the 3 programs together. I am trusting that it will be usable by the new system -- if not, shame on the system.

Re: New FTC Platform
 

FIRST should take the world champion team from QQ to face their new system of robots built by the new FTC kit, and see who would win.

I'd be willing to bet, unless they play unfairly, the new FTC kit wouldn't stand a chance.

Re: New FTC Platform
 

I believe there is now enough pieces of information now to fill in a few more details on the new FTC control system. From the blog and pictures it now seams certain that an off the shelf Lego Mindstorm NTX is the base. To add more sensor, digital IO's, hobby PWM servo outputs and motor control FTC will use an expansion board from Hitechnic.http://hitechnic.com/index.html?lang...arget=d20.html
The First community has been complaining about expansion, This appears to be their answer. One channel of I2C. I don't believe more than 1 channel is available. No mention of SPI. No mention of TTL serial. The one channel may become a bottle neck given that allot will be going through it. They mention a 4 to 400 ms latency. On the software side I'll bet on labview with a plug in to be the base software platform with Carnegie-Mellon C IDE as an option for those who want more control. What I want to know is how are they going to handle the motors? Do we get current and thermal protection? Feedback? How about full protected intelligent motor-driver? This could be not bad but until they are available for testing who can say.

Re: New FTC Platform
 

Respectfully, I disagree. Growth for FIRST at the high school level is going to be in FTC, and is going to be driven by mentors and teachers with a passion for the program. Parents are, for the most part, passive participants. (Of course there is some tautology here. Once a parent becomes passionate about this, they become mentors.) I've never been in any youth program (sports, Scouts, robots, math teams, chess teams) where the parents had more than 10 or 20% involvement. It's about the volunteers and the kids.

Re: New FTC Platform
 

I'm just throwing this out here:

What if this is an elaborate prank?

Think about it:
We have very limited information on the new FTC platform, with only one gear being shown in public. We are getting details from a blog, not an official press release.

What if this is Mancherster's April Fools to all FIRSTers?

Re: New FTC Platform
 

That is highly unlikely and if it was it would kill every FTC team respect of the FTC program.

Its no joke,

Theres the new motors (or very close to them),
http://www.lynxmotion.com/Product.as...&CategoryID=11

and here is the metal (or something very close to it),
http://www.lynxmotion.com/Product.as...&CategoryID=96

All the info so far matches up. I think FIRST is pulling together parts from different companies much like FRC. That is my theory so far.

Re: New FTC Platform
 

It definitely looks like this kit is thrown together from many sources. This also has me worried, because while you may go to one place for support on one part you will have to go somewhere else for support for something else. The problem with this is that people will get confused as to where to go for support with each component making everything more complicated. Another thing is getting it all to work together correctly will probably not be as easy as with VEX.

Re: New FTC Platform
 

I think FIRST will make it work just fine. Support will be a bit of a problem but I am sure FIRST is smart and will over come this.

Re: New FTC Platform
 

You don't seem to understand how schools work, well, at least in my area. If a teacher, such as myself, asks for funding for a program, it will be politely passed up the chain and then buried. If parents ask for the same funding and they are passionate and vocal enough, it will happen. The parents are indirectly involved in the actual program, but directly involved is steering funding. New programs thrive or fail based on parental support.

Re: New FTC Platform
 

This is not a prank. I am an FTC Affiliate Partner and the information that is being released on the blog is valid. Ken Johnson, FTC Program Director at FIRST, is the person releasing the info.

Releasing the new platform via the Showcase at World Championships next month mimics the release of the original FIRST Vex Challenge Program several years ago.

Re: New FTC Platform
 

Seemd all the people I talked to at the Davis event today who do Vex sure wish it was a prank. Seemed like they all want FTC to keep using Vex and most will keep using Vex instead of switching to the new platform. I wish FIRST would announce it's all been a bad joke on April 1, that would be cool.

Re: New FTC Platform
 

I DO understand, and you have my sympathy. My mother the teacher refused to teach in our home district because, "in our district I want to be a parent, not an employee." The trick is not to expect money from the school. Dealing with school bureaucracy is the number one reason we started an Explorer Post and delivered a turnkey robotics club to the students at the schools we draw from. The schools are our partners, but they do not have ANY control or input to our funding or activities (as long as we are off campus). Fortunately for us, there is a semi-autonomous theater program attached to a high school in the district that paved the way. The schools are friendly, but don't demand to run things. In some ways, they are even more friendly because we ask so little of them.

As for money, I don't want school money. It comes with too many strings. A school told an FRC team I know of that the students had to return their t-shirts at the end of the school year because they were purchased with donated money given to the school on the behalf of the team, and that all school uniforms have to be turned back in. The school did not provide ONE DIME of funding, but attached a bunch of pretty stupid rules on all the money routed through the school. We joined an educational 501(c)(3) organization that allows us to accept charitable donations that don't get routed through a school. The organization is VERY helpful, and does not expect payment for helping us manage our charitable donations, and I know how fortunate we are. It takes a little faith to climb out of the school pond, but it's pretty cool out here on dry land.

Re: New FTC Platform
 

Like I said in the FTC blog, we've been planning on starting a Vex/FTC team next year, and now we're really stuck with not knowing what to do. Does anyone really know why FIRST is switching if it sounds like most of the teams and schools don't want them to? It doesn't make sense and it's really hard for us to submit a budget for something that doesn't exist yet, isn't proven, sounds too expensive and sounds like it's still got Lego stuff in it. We've got until Apr 1 to submit our budget for either FTC or Vex, and right now we only know the prices and parts for Vex. Any advice from people who use Vex? Should we just go with that if we have to make a call by next week and have a fairly slim budget?

Re: New FTC Platform
 

JeffJ, do FTC with the new platform, budget $1,500, and use your existing Vex parts to compete in the IFI series. That's what we are going to do (except that we would like to field four teams, so our budget is going to be more like $5,000).

Good luck and let us know how it goes!

Re: New FTC Platform
 

We're in a similar spot, but anything over $1000 for a robot and registration is just too much for us. We want to have a few robots and we want to enter a few teams, but we don't want ot have to raise $5k to do it. We can get 4-8 Vex robots for under $5k in Vex, and that's much better for the local school to get more kids involved. Plus if the Vex competitions are going to be cheaper than the FTC ones like it sounds, then that's even more money we save if we enter a few teams. We need something good and we need it to be affordable. I can't tell if the FTC platform is good yet, but it sure doesn't sound like it's going to be affordable for schools, at least not like Vex is.

Re: New FTC Platform
 

Jeff, We're going to stay with Vex and partner with another school holding events in Turlock (we're in Modesto). I notice you're from Sunnyvale (CA, I assume), which is ~ 2 hours from us. I strongly suspect that you would find Vex events closer to you than us, but if not, y'all come. Even if you don't want to spend any money on Vex stuff, borrow yourself a Squarebot (or borrow one from us) and join the fun.

IFI has a vested interest in promoting Vex competitions, so I doubt that there will be a lack of events to attend. The game and the equipment can be counted on -- the quality of the events is the unknown. With FIRST, the quality of events is given, but the equipment is the unknown.

How we all wish that FIRST and Vex would have stayed together, but now that the new system has been announced, there's no going back. We can wonder what caused it, but I can't imagine that there's any way the decision can be undone. All that's left to do is make the best of what remains.

Re: New FTC Platform
 

New post is up. Still no hard info on cost, and it seems that it hasn't been entirely nailed down yet.

However, the good bit:

Re: New FTC Platform
 

What should my team's new budget be for next year? I'm thinking about raising at least 5 grand just incase. I want to push it to 7K if I can.

Suggestions for a budget?

Re: New FTC Platform
 

For how many teams? What do you include in your budget?

Without travel, I'm figuring $5-6k for three teams.

Re: New FTC Platform
 

Not including travel because local events are reached by car and if either of the 2 teams i will be mentoring reach Atlanta, they will be coming with MORT anyway. We have old kits and everything (tons of them) but for the final robot we like to purchase new parts each year. For next year I would also just like to have more fund raisers to get the kids involved in something more than just the robot as well. Thanks for any help Rick. It will be much appreciated. Also, if I could get some tips and advice on mentoring 2 ftc teams that'd be awesome as I am only 16 and have never mentored more than 1 FLL team.:)

#1 Rule-I obviously know that it is their robot not mine.

Re: New FTC Platform
 

Some mentoring tips can be found in "A Clueless Coach's Companion to FTC":
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/papers/2019

Some of the material is obsolete, because it was written for Vex, but some is still applicable. It was also mainly designed for coaches who have never seen any competitive robotics of any kind (which applies to most of the local coaches I recruit), so some material may be too basic for you.

Re: New FTC Platform
 

A new blog post has gone up here, with video of S.H.I.R.T.'s drivetrain with the new platform. It seems a little bit zippier than most Vex robots I've seen, but not by all that much.

Re: New FTC Platform
 

Cool, thanks a lot. :)

Re: New FTC Platform
 

[quote=Billfred;734750]A new blog post has gone up here, with video of S.H.I.R.T.'s drivetrain with the new platform. QUOTE]

I've got to steal a line from another post on a forum for my reaction to the video - just looks like a 2nd rate knockoff of Vex.

As I said in the FTC blog though, a 2nd rate knockoff/copy is normally cheaper. Somehow this knockoff is going to be more expensive? Just don't get it. Not impressed FIRST, this is a mistake. I know my team that we're putting together will not pay more for a Lego based robot than we will for a Vex robot.

Re: New FTC Platform
 

I'm not sure where you are coming from. This kit does not look cheap at all. I also don't know where this idea of a "Lego based robot" is coming from. The only thing the is Lego based is the controller. You aren't going to be seeing any other Lego parts from what i've been hearing.

Remember, no one is forcing you to change. You can always go play with your VEX parts in the new VEX Competition.

Re: New FTC Platform
 

For all the hits against FIRST regarding how they released it and the continued lack of information about cost, packaging, and availability, I think it actually looks like quite a competent kit, at least on par with VEX. Or at least based on the grainy video and tiny pictures we've seen so far.

Could you elaborate on what is second rate about the components? We know the metal is better, motors are stronger, gears are stronger, processor is more powerful, etc. Component-wise, it is genuinely better. Whether you NEED that improvement or not and despite the lack of info about pricing, the kit itself seems like it is good quality.

Re: New FTC Platform
 

There are many good things about the Lego controller. There are many programming environments. Robot C has built in debugging, the Labview plugin can introduce students to labview and instrumentation. The distributed architecture can allow students to lean processor to processor communications. The platform is expandable. IFI limited the VEX platform by not exposing and supporting comunication busses. The only question is can FIRST put everything togeter in an economical package.
What I would like to see is NI develope a State machine block. I've been playing with Cypress PSOC Express and I'm impressed with thier implementation of a graphical state machine tool. This would allow the students to think in terms of robot behavior and the state machine concept with out the complexitity of the low level implementation. The First platform has the potential to be better as long as its not a budget buster.

Re: New FTC Platform
 

I think a lot of this discussion comes back to the idea that this kit in "unnecessary" considering there is already a competent kit out there, VEX. However we need to keep in mind that the reason a new kit is required is because of the apparent split between IFI and FIRST. So for the short amount of time that has passed so far FIRST has produced a pretty decent kit. If you look back at when VEX first came out it wasn't much better than this, however IFI continued to develop it. The question right now is how will this kit grow over the years?

Re: New FTC Platform
 

I haven't done FTC, but I do have a Vex kit, which I like a lot. I agree, it doesn't seem necessary to switch to a new platform. I guess the only part that suprises me is that it looks almost the same. If they wanted something drastically different or cheaper, then I would get why they are trying a new platform. But if it's going to be close to a copy of Vex and not going to be cheaper, then why change?

Anyway, it looks like a Vex kit with a Lego controller to me, which I guess is ok as long as there aren't any other lego parts in it. If there are lego parts, I wouldn't be interested (since I'm not 11 anymore). But I'm curious to see the complete kit and price, maybe it will be as good as Vex.

Re: New FTC Platform
 

I'm not sure where all of this new hatred against FIRST is coming from, it looks like they are developing an awesome new system that will be tons of fun to play with. Everything looks super beefy and more competition worthy (now we won't have to run a single arm joint with three motors!). I'm liking it and can't wait to play with one!

If you're angry about the price, you can still play the IFI Vex games...

I still play with LEGOs, and I'm in college. I've got tens of thousands of them in my room at the moment! Must be a matter of opinion. (I actually much prefer LEGO to Vex).

Re: New FTC Platform
 

I'm not sure which posts sound like they are hateful, hopefully you don't mean mine, if so, I'm sorry.
I am very frustrated with FIRST, I think they are handling the FTC program very poorly, and I don't think they've been open or honest with the teams and schools. I am a little angry and very frustrated, but it's clear many people feel that way. To some people like me, it's this simple - there are only two good reasons to switch a platform: if the current one isn't good and people want it replaced or if you find something as good or better that is cheaper. Neither is the happening here, so that's why so many are upset. The current Vex platform is very good (FIRST has told teams that for 3 years or so now and encouraged schools to buy it) and the new platform is not going to be cheaper. So there is no good reason - at least not one that is good for teams and schools.
About the Legos, I can't speak for Sam, but I can only speak for me and the friends on my FTC team the past couple years - many of us did FLL and liked it, but we don't want to play with NXT or Legos anymore. To me NXT and Lego are toys and Vex is not, regardless what FIRST wants to try to convince me of.

Again, if you meant my posts when you said people are hating on FIRST, please know it's frustration. If you didn't mean my posts, then good, I still believe everything I've said.

Re: New FTC Platform
 

Good question. I was thinking of the general perception that copied and knocked off stuff is 2nd rate and cheap. It's pretty obvious they're just trying to come up with a platform to replace Vex and aren't even trying to make it look very different, so I consider it a Lego knockoff - just a NXT controller trying to copy the Vex kit. I consider "copied" stuff to be "cheap". Worst part is it sounds like it's going to be more expensive than Vex and not cheap. But it being a knockoff and cheap is just my opinion, some may disagree and many do not, just opinion.

On the other stuff - the Vex metal is great as is, so if the new metal is harder to work with, bend and modify, then it is not better. I don't care about metal gears or bigger motors, that's what I would do FRC to work with, but I do consider metal gears and bigger motors to be less safe for classroom use. So we have different opinions, I haven't seen anything in the new kit that looks "better" than Vex.
Hope that explains what I was saying, should have been more clear, didn't mean to confuse.

Re: New FTC Platform
 

Disclaimer: This is my personal opinions and observations. Please take it for what it's worth.

As a Teacher, I see no problem using the new kit in the classroom. As for the Vex metal: i can take it or leave it. It's light weight and easy to cut, however, i also feel that the metal is a bit too flimsy for a lot of applications. We had to double up angle to reach any length greater than 8". The gears: dude. The gears are the weak point of the VEX kit. For most applications we have had to double up the gears to keep them from slipping. This may have to do with the lack of power that the VEX motors have. In order to lift the two rings for this years game we had to gear down the joints so much we snapped teeth.