Knocking off a ball while possesing a ball
 

At the San Diego regional Friday morning drivers meeting, it was announced that there was a new rule that you could not posses a trackball and while possessing the ball, knock another ball off.

Was this announced at the other regionals? It doesn't look like there is another team update.

Re: Knocking off a ball while possesing a ball
 

This does not sound kosher. I have not heard of this rule anywhere else, and by looking at this years rule and previous years rules, a possessed track ball used in anyway in the game is considered part of the robot, thus making it legal to knock off, but not to hold another one.

Re: Knocking off a ball while possesing a ball
 

Not in the rules, unless <G27> applies. The Updates are silent on the matter.

I'm going to explore <G27> a bit. Here it is: Now, the definition of Herding: Hmm...Controlling the motion is mentioned as being one thing that constitutes herding. I'm not so sure that the motion is controlled, but...

I'd say it sounds like an interpretation of <G27>. Admittedly it's a little stretched. The only question is whether or not the GDC would support it.

Re: Knocking off a ball while possesing a ball
 

I would be very interested in any additional info on this. We did this in St. Louis very successfully and received points for doing it .:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

Re: Knocking off a ball while possesing a ball
 

When you say "new rule" it makes me think it would be in an update after week 1. I looked at the updates and there is nothing evenly closely related to it. I really have no idea where they got that rule from. You should question them on that.
Joey

Re: Knocking off a ball while possesing a ball
 

This is another one of those rules that would be much easier to understand with some physical examples to view. my interpretation of G27 is that you cannot POSSESS a track ball and herd another - yet you can herd both at the same time. Possession of a track ball is carrying it in some way. There is no mention of knocking another ball down while carrying one. Of course, knocking the ball down during teleo. does not get you any points anyway so i'm not sure what the problem is. Also, you cannot carry the ball across the line and get points - so not sure if that applies either. In any case, I certainly have not heard any rule that sounds like what you are referring to.

Re: Knocking off a ball while possesing a ball
 

I recall watching 217 knock down an opposing trackball while possessing their own. This was done en-route to a buzzer-beating hurdle. Clearly the play swung the match.

The play was very cool, and didn't violate any rule I know of. You can probably watch it online somewhere -- link anyone?

[edit]It was the second match of the Finals. Red wins 78-70 on 217's descoring of a blue bonus ball (using their own ball), and subsequent last-second hurdle.

Re: Knocking off a ball while possesing a ball
 

I'm with EricH here. This is a reasonable interpretation of <G27>. Intentionally pushing a TRACKBALL in a particular direction (i.e. off the overpass) clearly counts as HERDING.

Re: Knocking off a ball while possesing a ball
 

It seems like there are more rule discrepancies between regionals this year than ever before. I thought referees were supposed to complete an online rules evaluation course.

Re: Knocking off a ball while possesing a ball
 

I agree with where you are coming from, but I'm not sure if that is what they see at thet regional. Joe said they announced it as a "new" rule. <G27> is not a new rule, it has not been changed recently. I dont like how the competition is doing this though. I think all regionals should have consistant rules. If they didnt call it in week 1 dont just start calling it in week 2. Ask the GDC so they can inform everyone that that is the rule, and not just someones interpruitation of the rule.
Joey

Re: Knocking off a ball while possesing a ball
 

I would agree that it's not controlled, you are just bumping it, there's no telling where it will bounce. Of course I'm biased because knocking off a ball and then hurdling in the last ten seconds is just too cool.

Edit: Another thing, isn't it a penalty for herding the opposing alliance's trackball, or is it just possessing? If it is a penalty then that would mean that knocking the ball off even if you aren't possessing one of your own wouldn't be allowed, which is clearly not the intention of the rules, knocking balls off at the end is sort of key.

Re: Knocking off a ball while possesing a ball
 

I saw team 95 do this at BAE. They are a fairly effective shooter bot, but can't knock the ball off the overpass unless they have a ball already. They would drive under the overpass with a ball, and shoot their ball straight up into the other ball. They could even catch the ball on the rebound too. :D

Re: Knocking off a ball while possesing a ball
 

Possession of an opponent's trackball would be a penalty, herding a opponent's trackball would not. See rule <G29>.

Re: Knocking off a ball while possesing a ball
 

I really need to see this.

Re: Knocking off a ball while possesing a ball
 

At approximately 2 pm, the head referee announced that there was a miscommunication between himself and FIRST and that you are allowed to knock off a ball while possessing another.

Re: Knocking off a ball while possesing a ball
 

I saw it happen once in NJ in practice - 103 hurdled, the ball bounced and the robot happened to be where it came down, right in their cradle. I suspect their drivers were as surprised as anybody, but it sure looked great.

Re: Knocking off a ball while possesing a ball
 

Team 473 also did this at the Oregon Regional

Re: Knocking off a ball while possesing a ball
 

This actually occured at San Diego today with our team. It was match 29 with blue alliance 968 2543 and 701. Our team (2543) was under the red track ball when we fired our arm to remove the track ball when our alliance member was attempting to place our blue ball on the rack. The refs made the penalty call on our alliance member for such a move (even though in fact it was our team to reomve the ball) and we lost the match. ANYWAY, to make a long story short...

we all entered the challenge box and the San Diego Refs formally announced that it is legal to knock off other trackballs while in possession of your own trackball.

They reversed the penatly on this match and we are still waiting for the rankings to change to say that we won this game. If you look on the first website, our match is missing.

Re: Knocking off a ball while possesing a ball
 

Thank you for "forcing" the refs to acknowledge an "error". Their initial interpretation was a little far-fetched, even for me.

Re: Knocking off a ball while possesing a ball
 

I actually wasn't at the drive meeting when they announced this (though i am a robocoach) but they must have announced it three times that our main ref was led to believe from another above him in a phone conversation that it was illegal. Im just glad they refeversed the call and didn't just decide to change it for future reference.

Re: Knocking off a ball while possesing a ball
 

They updated the matches and list it as 0-0 tie. We watched the video of the match and you can clearly see 2543 knocking it up from below, but then we hit it as we tried to place our ball giving it the forward momentum and hence the "penalty". Moot point though with this rule. The real kicker is why it is called a tie? We won this match after you take away the wrongly called penalty. See the pick...

Should be 48-42 Blue alliance? What did I miss? Oh well - no sour grapes here - just struggling to answer parents and students questions about how and why it was scored this way.

Re: Knocking off a ball while possesing a ball
 

on the screen at the event tonight it showed us 7-0 like we should be. no tie like on FIRST website

Re: Knocking off a ball while possesing a ball
 

I have asked this question on Q&A. I look forward to a quick reply.

It appearsthat we inconstancy across regionals.

Re: Knocking off a ball while possesing a ball
 

I sure hope that the answer is that it is okay to knock the ball off while in possession of a ball, 'cause it was way too cool to watch how some of the teams at St. Louis pulled it off to have it be ruled against now.:yikes: I think I'd be pretty bummed out not to see some of it at the Boilermaker!

Re: Knocking off a ball while possesing a ball
 

Here is the answer that I received from Q&A:

There is no rule that prohibits knocking a Trackball off the Overpass with another Trackball. There was an announcement made at the San Diego Regional concerning this topic that was in error. This was corrected, and the teams were notified of the correction.:)

Re: Knocking off a ball while possesing a ball
 

We were able to knock off the opponents ball while in possession of our ball at the Kansas City regional (see match 19). There was never any mention of this being a penalty. We actually knocked down both red balls during the last seconds of the match while launching ours for eight points.