Protection to shooters
 

This is for all teams tha have been to at least one regional.
In the FIRST rules 'Hurdling' is defined this way:
What hurdling protection is given to Shooters? Most shooters keep the ball low, just before they shoot. Like we do.
Are the refs giving penalties to opponents that interfere with shooters in their Home Stretch?

Thanks for any help.

Wayne Doenges
Team 1501 (THRUST)

Re: Protection to shooters
 

It's looks to me like if you are moving towards the Overpass you are protected; if you are not moving, you don't have protection under the current rules.

Re: Protection to shooters
 

At San Diego no protection was given to shooters and often even interfering with arms/lifts wasn't called.

Re: Protection to shooters
 

So does that mean an elevator up to stop a shot is legal?

Re: Protection to shooters
 

yes it means an elevator that stops, and is raising at ball at the specified is protected

Re: Protection to shooters
 

I am saying if you want to play defense against a shooter and you put your elevator up is that legal? If your robot would be able to not tip.

Re: Protection to shooters
 

At VCU, arms/lifts were protected pretty well, but shooters didn't get nearly as much. 1731 saw a little bit of protection, but their method of "shooting" involved raising the trackball. Most teams interfering with hurdling against shooters merely got in front of them and held them up as long as possible.

Re: Protection to shooters
 

We had the same problem at Arizona in semifinals

842 kept blocking us in our home stretch moving toward the overpass with a trackball in our possession, but there were no penalties.

Anyways, it was a good parctice for avoiding defence that we will have against us in Vegas.

Re: Protection to shooters
 

Hmm..I get what you're saying, to me it sounds like that would be interference. Not sure though. Anyone else:confused:

Re: Protection to shooters
 

Alrigght. Because me and thefro were talking about that as a way of defense. And before we try anything I just wanted to clarify wether it was legal or not.

Re: Protection to shooters
 

It's legal, provided you don't contact the trackball until it was released.

And 842 should probably have been called for interference, because 39 satisfied all three requirements for protection (in the situation described). (moving towards overpass, has trackball, in own homestretch)

Re: Protection to shooters
 

Thanks for clarifying that, like I said, I wasn't sure. It sounds like a good strategy that we could use against those awesome shooters.

Re: Protection to shooters
 

Shooters should be protected as long as they're moving towards the overpass. The rules state:

and/or seems to mean that you need to be doing at least one of the two (either moving towards or elevating) in order to be protected.

Re: Protection to shooters
 

I wonder if there is a loophole here; if a herder that carries the ball is protected in the home zone, it is in posession of a ball and is moving toward the overpass. There isn't anything in the rule that says the robot must even be capable of hurdling but would still be protected.

Re: Protection to shooters
 

I am from 842. First of all I do not want to cause any hard feelings. The robot game is just that a game. In the interest of trying to figure out the game we had some issues.
For us to launch the track ball, we had to come to a stop and then start the firing sequence. The sequence involved lowering our forklifts to allow the launching the track ball. About a second later the pnuematic catapult launches the track ball. We were told that once we start the firing sequence we would not be allowed to be hit by another robot. After three times being interfered with while we were launching in our home stretch and all, and no penalties called, we were told that the ball must be moving, or in other words, we were not allowed to be interfered with when the ball is actually launching. So according to the rules as interpreted by the refs at the AZ regional, we were not launcing even though we started our launch sequence. Based on this rule interpretation, we decided that the only defence against team 39 was to interfere with there setup for launching, because if they are not actually launching then it is fair game.
Their driving up to the hurdle before launching is eqivalanet to us stopping and lowering our lift arms to fire.
I think that is why we did not get called.

All this being said, I would rather have teams that have clearly shown that they are starting to fire should not be interefred with. This would allow us and 39 to fire without intereference. But hey,Iam not the ref.
Based on this bit on info and some othwer things we learned, we will be implementing them in LA and LV and we hope to see how it works against teams like 39.
They are a great team and have built a great bot, they were also very gracious to explain to us how they got their launcher to work.

On the field though we must do all we can to benifit our alliance. That is all we were trying to do. Playing the game as it was being interpreted.
I hope this explains why we played why we did.

Re: Protection to shooters
 

As far as I can tell the refs interpretation is correct. Your robot was neither moving towards the overpass nor elevating the trackball so it does not fit the definition of hurdling. 39 on the other hand launched on the run and thus should have met the definition of hurdling as they were moving towards the overpass.

I have not yet been down on the field for a match this year, but what constitutes "clearly shown that they are starting to fire"?? With your robot on the far side of the field from any driver that would be interfering with you I think things may not be so clear from their perspective. If you aren't moving towards the overpass or elevating the ball, you're fair game, plain and simple. These two criteria should be much easier to see and distinguish from the far side of the field vs. trying to tell when a shooter is starting to fire.

This rule has been in place from the beginning and all teams had ample opportunity to design accordingly.

Re: Protection to shooters
 

I am with you on your answer, I as trying to explain a possible reason why we were not penalized. It was my best guess. team 39 had a great bot, it was the only defense we had even if it ment penalties it was a risk we had to take. As the game went on and the penalties were not called, we thought we were good to go. I would have thought we would, but we did not. I guess we will see in the next regional. We are redisigning some thisngs anyway. That is one of the things we learned, launch while running!!!

Re: Protection to shooters
 

The way I see it, the rules are very clear about when a shooter gets protection. Assume the shooter does not carry the ball so that it breaks the plane of the overpass, as defined in the rules. In that case, a shooter must be in its home stretch, posessing a ball, and moving towards the overpass.

If the shooter doesn't have to stop to shoot, then even better: as the robot starts raising the ball (shooting), it will still comply with the conditions for protection. If the shooter has to stop, it should be vulnerable to defense (losing protection), until it starts shooting.

I'll definitely check with the SVR head ref about how they're calling it, as we'll take any protection we can get.

Re: Protection to shooters
 

Yes this is why we are modifying to shoot on the run.

Re: Protection to shooters
 

I thought of one question though, how do you know when a shooter is going to hurdle. He migt just be running through under the overpass. Maybe this is why the refs didn't penalize us? They could not tell if the bot was going to fire????

Re: Protection to shooters
 

According to the rule, that doesn't matter. The shooter just needs to (a) be in their Home Stretch, (b) have possession of the trackball, and (c) be moving towards the overpass.

Re: Protection to shooters
 

Just make sure your elevator can take that impact.
Joey

Re: Protection to shooters
 

The good news is you don't have to be running fast - even if you're just creeping toward the goal, you're moving!

Re: Protection to shooters
 

Here is the video of the 39/842 semi final matches:

AZ Quarter Up to Finals
Start at 10:00 min or so and the other match at 24:03

You be the judge:)

Re: Protection to shooters
 

This is perfectly legal and was implemented at least twice by team 815 during the AZ regional.

Re: Protection to shooters
 

If you want to stop Team 1501, from hurdling, you better be able to raise your elevator at least 10' high :ahh:
Otherwise we will clear you.