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-   -   Let's Put the Professionalism back in Gracious Professionalism (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65668)

CraigHickman 10-03-2008 18:35

Re: Let's Put the Professionalism back in Gracious Professionalism
 
Professionalism usually comes after experience. We have to realize that FIRST is made up of High School students, which means they have a long way to go until they're truly professional.

I've had very personal experience with the lack of professional behavior by teams, and I wish I could say it was a rare incident. However, it seems that GP is only something to be touted when someone isn't following it, or when it's time to pack up and head to the competitions. If FIRST students took GP to heart, we'd see a lot less complaining about issues, and lot more solutions being posted.

Fred Sayre 10-03-2008 18:51

Re: Let's Put the Professionalism back in Gracious Professionalism
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan Anderson (Post 715777)
It's not the complaints about the "not quite right" 1% that bother me. Even if they aren't presented in a "professional" manner, they usually prompt reasonably lucid debate about appropriate changes. No, what gets me is complaints about the 20% of the things that cannot possibly satisfy everyone because of conflicting goals. A small bit of critical thinking ought to determine that to be the real cause of the problem. Rather than whining that this or that goal isn't being met, it would help to focus attention on getting the goals to more closely align instead.


Being professional means doing things right. Being gracious means doing the right thing. They complement each other perfectly. But I think we should remember to use GP as a guide for our own behavior, not as a yardstick to measure others' shortcomings.

Thank you! This is a very important point to be made, and one that I think everyone should keep in mind in this discussion.

I think something also to consider, is if that 1% can cause such a powerful response from any number of people to overshadow the 99% of the good that FIRST is doing (even if only temporarily) then it is worth taking a look at. Do I blame FIRST for its shortcomings? Absolutely not - but people claiming how good the program is as an excuse why we should not want it to be better drives me up the wall.

If someone is whining, there is a reason. Differentiating what Alan is talking about is important, but otherwise we have to look at these discussions as a possibility to make things better, and not look down on people who are not 100% satisfied. Some changes maybe impossible, but my intuition says that if we all put our minds to it, I think great progress can be made ;)

Jim E 10-03-2008 19:15

Re: Let's Put the Professionalism back in Gracious Professionalism
 
I understand Kathy's concerns. Whether to agree or disagree with her statements, is another issue. The criticisms she brings are vague and generalized as Jane has pointed out. This 'sounds like' venting frustration. CD provides a good forum for that, and venting is good in this sense, because of the neutrality in Kathy's statements.

FIRST is an organization with goals and objectives that probably extend beyond my comprehension. Some may even incorrectly say it is cult-like.

As with any organization, church, religion, or club, there may be things you have an issue with. The best way to find answers is to approach the offending party direct.

My past and present employers have always implemented an open-door policy. If your supervisor cannot answer your grievance, then you are encouraged to take it to the next level of management. This type of policy is not only professional, but gracious in that everything is kept confidential until the facts are known. Businesses take this very serious. FIRST is also a business.

I'm rambling now, but if you have an issue with the game rules, ship deadlines, lack of compassion for missed work periods because of snow days, missed deadlines for entries, the color of the FIRST emblem, etc,etc,etc,...take it to the next level.

CD forum is meant to be a tool to help students and mentors learn about robotics and discuss the FIRST games in an independent forum.

Hopefully nobody takes offense to my comments. But with the CD Forum being as large as it is, the chances are pretty good someone will disagree....(which is good)

EDIT: For team conflicts bordering on Sexual harassment, color, creed, gender or religious preference, there are LAWS against this. File a police report and also contact your regional FIRST director to file a complaint if necessary. They are listed on www.usfirst.org

Jonathan Norris 10-03-2008 19:32

Re: Let's Put the Professionalism back in Gracious Professionalism
 
Katy,

I totally agree with you on this one, there are many times where I have felt a need to share my opinion on a controversial issue within FIRST, but have chosen not to express my views here on CD because of the stigma of my opinion being labeled 'not GP'. I certainly believe that this forum takes a much brighter look on FIRST then it should at times. The forum as a whole can take the Gracious part of Gracious Professionalism a little too far. There needs to be dialogue about the main issues in FIRST, and I believe they have been hidden under the covers away from the public view of the members of CD. It seems like there is an opinion that these type of conversations criticizing issues within FIRST should be taken up Privately and not openly, and the odd time they truly get discussed here on CD the people with the critical views get attacked by the GP police. It seems like debating problems with FIRST is almost looked down upon here on CD, hopefully in the future we can have professional discussions about these issues within FIRST and help solve them together.

Katy 10-03-2008 20:44

Re: Let's Put the Professionalism back in Gracious Professionalism
 
Not to be rude but I prefer to be called Katy over Kathy. Thanks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JaneYoung (Post 715723)
I'm not quite understanding this post/thread.

To begin with, I don't understand how this post is anonymously coauthored. Katy has posted this/started this thread and Katy is the one who will receive the responses.
Jane

The post is coauthored because I am not the sole author of it. The idea was discussed, I did a lot of writing, and then there was editing and more ideas added. I feel somewhat bad being unable to speak further on the issue but I would feel unprofessional to violate the trust of my coauthor(s) by saying more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JaneYoung (Post 715723)
The second thought that comes to mind is that this is obviously a post that has some concerns but I don't understand what the concerns are. There are generalities but no specifics that I can grasp and that may be why I'm somewhat confused.

Jane

It pains me substantially to not post links to examples of the sorts of behavior I am attempting to discuss. However, I feel that to point out specific individuals in a debate of this variety would be implying that they are un-GP. Personally I believe GP is a standard to live by, not to judge others by. Additionally as a professional I would feel unethical pointing at people and implying that they are not GP in topic that is meant in part to discuss the negative impact of people labeling others un-GP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JaneYoung (Post 715909)
So is this a discussion of the members of CD being critical of people who post in CD?

Or is this a discussion of how FIRST operates?

Or is this a discussion regarding being critical in general?

This discussion was mainly intended to be the first and the third. I want to talk about the fact that it is appropriate and often for the good of FIRST to provide meaningful constructive criticism. I want to discuss the fact that this criticism should be regarded by other individuals as an opportunity for thought and not immediately attacked. This is true on and off CD.

I feel that people are confusing "being gracious" with "not disagreeing." You can disagree graciously and if you believe that disagreeing is correct and have facts to back disagreeing is in fact quite professional.

Here it is in a nutshell. There are people asking the tough questions in FIRST. There are more people who would probably like to ask their own questions. However, after seeing those who are currently asking the hard questions dismissed or vilified the latter group of people are shying away from speaking their mind. I feel this is a dangerous and unhealthy environment for FIRST to be in. I would like to see people be more accepting so that other people can feel a little safer. I would also like to inspire those who feel there is something that needs to be said and have the facts to back it up. Hopefully, despite their fear, they will say it anyway.

Does this clarify?

JaneYoung 10-03-2008 20:56

Re: Let's Put the Professionalism back in Gracious Professionalism
 
Yes. :)
Thank you, Katy.
Now I can think about this discussion and understand its source of frustration, initially.
Jane

Ben Mitchell 10-03-2008 21:07

Re: Let's Put the Professionalism back in Gracious Professionalism
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by msd (Post 715867)
The stated vision is to create "a world where science and technology are celebrated", but sometimes it seems more like they are trying to create "a world where FIRST is celebrated". Sometimes it seems as though the mission to "inspire young people to be science and technology leaders", has become a mission to "inspire everyone to be FIRST marketeers".

And the rest of the post

I heartily concur.

hillale 10-03-2008 21:27

Re: Let's Put the Professionalism back in Gracious Professionalism
 
This is one of the things I was trying to imply with my William Wallace post in the intentionally blocking in hybrid mode thread. People should not be so quick to accept/support what FIRST has to say, they should take time and have some original thought on the matter. In my more recent posts, I've been more off the wall and honest about things to get my point across. I have not received any negative feedback, but I also believe that people may not be taking me seriously. We will see.

wilsonmw04 10-03-2008 21:30

Re: Let's Put the Professionalism back in Gracious Professionalism
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Katy (Post 716014)

Here it is in a nutshell. There are people asking the tough questions in FIRST. There are more people who would probably like to ask their own questions... ...Hopefully, despite their fear, they will say it anyway.

Now that have multiple "seconds" to the OP's statement, can we get down to specifics?
What are these Issues?
How can we keep minority or alternate opinions/assessments from getting sensored by the "GP police?"

If the goal of this post is to find a solution, this is the next logical step.

Lil' Lavery 10-03-2008 23:03

Re: Let's Put the Professionalism back in Gracious Professionalism
 
I whole-heartedly agree with the concept behind this post.
I do think people need to think before they post though, and many thoughts, comments, and criticisms are often posted while teams/individuals are still hot about an issue and it comes across the wrong way, or is an isolated event that doesn't even really merit discussion in the first place. Sometimes it seems like people are nit-picking or kicking a dead horse about certain issues. Others there are legitimate concerns that are worthy of further investigation.

I feel this also applies towards opinions and discussions of teams as well. Not in so much how they are discussed (and frankly, many times people have ignored the principles of GP when discussing other teams they dislike), but in the general viewing of how other teams operate. Many seem to forget this is a competition, and that the goal of a competition is to win. As a result, teams that openly have the goal of succeeding in competition are often ridiculed and harassed. These teams operate fully within the rules and guidelines of FIRST, and I hate to see teams blasted for using their mentors in different ways, declining (or picking a team that will decline) a selection, or working to improve their RP. Many of these teams are also among the best and brightest in virtually every other aspect of FIRST as well, including spreading the message of FIRST. Just because they remember the professionalism in GP, and that it is professional to do your job at competition well (ie win), doesn't mean they aren't gracious.

Ben Mitchell 11-03-2008 09:31

Re: Let's Put the Professionalism back in Gracious Professionalism
 
I have come back to this thread after my initial short reply because I think that this thread deserves some attention from everyone, and Kathy and her coauthor deserve more than a little credit.

I will not deny that FIRST is a good program. It changed my life for the better. However, I feel that the culture of FIRST has changed since I started in 2001, and not for the better.

I would call this the "perversion" of "gracious professionalism," it is easy to defend the program while waving the GP flag. I do not like the flag. I do not use the flag. I do not like using the term "gracious professionalism," anymore because it has become this euphemism for the "FIRST party line."

I'm not going to go into my criticisms of FIRST - that's a whole different thread, and believe me, with some of the posters on this site I'd be worried about being firebombed. I will say this though: the power of denial is quite powerful indeed. It is healthy and important and normal to debate and criticize. The worst thing you can do if you love something is to deny the problems it has. I have the feeling that people are not understanding or otherwise ignoring aspects of the program when I look some aspects of FIRST. I can definitely see the "cult-like" mentality.

Just look at the text of "Dean's Homework" - It's all about raising awareness for FIRST, and not about inspiring and recognizing science and technology. Huh?

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/papers/2063

I think it is important that people keep things in perspective. FIRST is a tool for achieving a mission, which is to get more students interested in science and technology. That's it. FIRST is just the name of a program. It's just one program among many robotics programs.

I do not have brand loyalty for FIRST, because with a program like FIRST, what you get out of it depends on what you put into it. It is unhealthy to swear loyalty to the institution while ignoring the idealogical foundation under it.

I would carry the same ideals I would carry into FIRST into any competition, public or private. The foundation is going to be there - the institution is free to change.

People should always be critically evaluating what they are putting resources into. We should have a culture that encourages critical thinking and encourages debate and transparent policies. This is something we need to strive for. If the ship we are on is beyond our criticism, then it is impossible for us to have input as to where we are sailing. It could be a tropical paradise or a sand bar. Either way I want to question the navigator.

As I've said in other posts, I don't really care about what's popular - I couldn't care less about the green dots next to my name. No one should. Graciousness does not equate to idolatry.

KathieK 11-03-2008 12:44

Re: Let's Put the Professionalism back in Gracious Professionalism
 
<slightly off-topic>Just a reminder that we do have a forum which allows for anonymous posts: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=24541 </>

Brandon Holley 11-03-2008 15:30

Re: Let's Put the Professionalism back in Gracious Professionalism
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KathieK (Post 716375)
<slightly off-topic>Just a reminder that we do have a forum which allows for anonymous posts: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=24541 </>

While this is awesome, what I think katy among others is getting at is that they should be able to express an opinion without having to go to the anonymous forum...

JaneYoung 11-03-2008 20:26

Re: Let's Put the Professionalism back in Gracious Professionalism
 
ok, I've asked some questions to which Katy graciously responded and I've had some time to think about this. This response may go long.

Initial thoughts before understanding the concerns of the OP were along these lines -
there are several programs that are represented in CD
there are many teams represented in CD, though not all FIRST teams are represented or represented equally
there are teams represented by students, mentors, parents - either individually or mixed
there are individuals that post in CD that are not affiliated with teams but have interest in FIRST, support the programs, and often volunteer at the events
there is a wide variety of age groups represented in CD. I know 14 year olds and I know folks in their mid-70s.
there are teams represented that have corporate sponsors and there are teams who fund raise year round, piecing the money together to compete
there are members of teams that post in CD from all over the world

Our diversity goes on and on. The common interest is FIRST.
We use written language to communicate in CD. If we are careful with our posts, giving them some forethought and consideration before we hit 'send' - we can often minimize misunderstandings and rudeness which are reflections of unprofessional behavior and actions.

To those who fear posting in ChiefDelphi - take a deep breath of courage and post. It can be intimidating, listening to so many strong opinions. One thing that I have learned by being involved in the robotics programs, is that engineers are not wishy washy people. They see things very clearly and they state things very clearly. Students who are drawn to science, engineering, and technology can do this as well. This can create a fora filled with very strong viewpoints and opinions. There is nothing wrong with that. What is wrong is what Katy has stated and it is how we present viewpoints and opinions. That is where care and respect for the topic and each other enters in.

This is also true in chat rooms, in person at competitions, in the classroom, in the shop - everywhere. Gracious Professionalism isn't something you don like a coat or a hat, it is a way of conducting yourself as an individual, as a team, as a group.

All you members out there that are afraid to post - you may be holding on to a kernel of wisdom that no one else has thought of. You may have a viewpoint that is worthy of exploring. If you keep it to yourself, we'll never know. And if someone is rude or pops off a critical post - what is the worst that can happen? Build a little tougher skin.

Let's build better skills in communication.

Jane

Ben Mitchell 12-03-2008 00:16

Re: Let's Put the Professionalism back in Gracious Professionalism
 
I think the larger issue here is not a problem of communication, it is a collectivist mentality that reprimands critical thinking in favor of an idealogical utopia that may not be grounded in reality, but rather in fantasy.

People that say something that is critical of FIRST run a risk of getting slammed. Hard.

I think Ed Murrow said it eloquently:

"We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty."


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