Overdrive <G22> poll: yea or nay?
 

My impression is that about half the people commenting lucidly on the topic think the rule is fine as is. Others seem to believe that almost everyone disagrees with it. So I'd like to find out what the CD community really thinks.

Please do not continue the debate here. I'd appreciate it if this thread could be kept as just the poll.

Re: Overdrive <G22> poll: yea or nay?
 

I believe the rule should only be called if a robot completely enters the quadrant previous to the one it is currently in.

1. This is a hard penalty to call, if you barely touch the line after crossing the line it could induce a penalty. Also traffic builds up around the turns. If your robot has already crossed the line it can't maneuver to get to the open lane, it has to wait till the spot it is in clears up.

2. This is hard for drivers, the rumors you hear about positions 1 and 3 are true, you can't see very well on the other end of the field. Personally I can't even tell if we are playing 2 robots or three robots at the beginning of the game let alone judge where my teams robot is on the field.


If the rule was changed like this, the amount of penalty's would drop significantly and there would be less games decided on penalty's.

Re: Overdrive <G22> poll: yea or nay?
 

I agree that part of your bot should be able to cross the line, but not the whole bot. Personally I dont like it when penalties make or break a match, but on a better note, I dont think 145 got a line violation at FLR.

Re: Overdrive <G22> poll: yea or nay?
 

I think this rule could use a tweak so as to better follow the INTENT of the rule, since thats what the GDC seems to be all about this year (in some cases even going so far as to say do what we meant, not what we said). Some way to allow small portions of the robot (ie. the corner of a steering skid steer bot) to break the plane without inducing a penalty

Re: Overdrive <G22> poll: yea or nay?
 

But Alan, then the thread would never get bumped ;)

To follow up my vote, "The Rule is bad but could be fixed", I think that the intent of the rule is to
a) prevent re-scoring on the same line
b) prevent traffic flow in the opposite direction

As a driver, Positions 1 and 3 are bad ENOUGH (very terrible in fact; It literally can make or break your match), and then to get wrong-way penalties for trying to maneuver through pileups and traffic..... The intent of the rule isn't being considered. It's not like I'm driving in reverse around the track; I simply am trying to move through traffic, and if I happen to be over one of the cursed white lines, I'm screwed.

In my opinion, the rule should be written so that you cannot cross two consecutive lines in reverse order. This allows some freedom for the driver to maneuver through traffic, but doesn't allow him to go in reverse around the track to chase a ball. The disadvantage of course: it would be almost impossible to ref this.

Jacob

Re: Overdrive <G22> poll: yea or nay?
 

So far, it looks like it is just a noisy minority that doesn't really like it, which makes sense. You don't post a thread to say "I am satisfied with rule G22!!"

Re: Overdrive <G22> poll: yea or nay?
 

I think the rule is good but needs some modification. I look at the rules as being imposed constraints to allow team members to plan, design, and play under additional simulated physical constraints that real world problems will present in the future. However, there are great many areas of the field that for one reason or another, the drivers cannot see that they are in violation. How can a driver 30 feet away, looking through a two lexan panels with reflections and a multitude of vertical poles, tell that their bumper which is several inches off the floor and in bad light, has just crossed backwards over the lane marker by 1/4". (The parallax in this situation is tremendous) There is just no way that can occur. Make the rule that the whole (or the majority of) robot must cross backwards over a line to incur the penalty and then I think you have something. Even refs must be hard pressed to see that small a change accurately.

Re: Overdrive <G22> poll: yea or nay?
 

I wouldn't trivialize that minority. It's about twenty percent right now. Hey, that number sounds familiar:

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...777#post715777

No?

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...094#post674094

Re: Overdrive <G22> poll: yea or nay?
 

What Al said.

Re: Overdrive <G22> poll: yea or nay?
 

rules like g22 are important to any FIRST game because they require a level of skill from the drivers. While I hate seeing matches determined by a penalty it is rulings like this that keep the game from being a "crash and bash" event. In most cases that I have seen this rule violated it would only take the driver a second or less to avoid the penalty.

I think Drivers should remember the following:
make sure you want to cross the line before you do it.
Make sure there is enough room in the next quadrant.
Do not turn immediately following crossing the line.

If you do the following things I think that you will never get the penalty.

Re: Overdrive <G22> poll: yea or nay?
 

The way I read the poll, 59% right now have voted for either "it's good but could be fixed" or "it's bad but could be fixed". Only 35% say that nothing is wrong. To me, this is a clear majority saying that there is at least some problem with the rule that could be better. In fact, I'd even say that the noisy minority is the group saying nothing is wrong (35%).

Re: Overdrive <G22> poll: yea or nay?
 

On "good", the word is actually "improved", which has a somewhat different meaning from "fixed". (Improved=made better; fixed=it's broken and needs repair)
So 35% say nothing is wrong, about the same say the rule could be better (something minor--like hybrid code that only does one line but has time to do more), and the rest say the rule needs fixing (like a robot that was hit and lost the ability to drive). This aside from the people that don't care or say it's a bad rule and should be removed (Which combined are smaller than any one of the others).

Re: Overdrive <G22> poll: yea or nay?
 

Dave, every rule written could find people that want to see it modified. It is a rule and that means constraints. There are always people that want all constraints removed and those who want them lessened. As for me I would like to see the rule called as written:

<G22> Direction Of Traffic – ROBOTS must proceed around the TRACK in a counter-clockwise
direction. Once a ROBOT has CROSSED a LANE MARKER or FINISH LINE, it shall not
break the plane of the line by moving in the clockwise direction. A PENALTY will be
assigned for each infraction.

In the Arena section it states :
6.2.1 Boundaries and Markings
The TRACK is an octagonal carpeted 27 feet by 54 feet area, bounded by two Alliance Station
Walls and a Guardrail System. and
As the ROBOTS move in a counter-clockwise direction around the TRACK, the quadrant of the
TRACK immediately preceding the FINISH LINE for each ALLIANCE is known as the “HOME
STRETCH.”

This is my Q&A question:
As I have read in the Q&A in gives the indication that moving clockwise within a quadrant is allowed. Should the rule have stated that robots must move in a counter clockwise direction between quadrants but may move in any direct within the quadrant or is the rule correct that all traffic must be in a counter-clockwise direction?

I only got a see other question answer. As written there is nothing that states it is OK to drive backwards in a quadrant. I know that it states that you will be penalized for crossing back over a line but no other examples are given. I guess my point is, there are definite rules stating DO NOT cross back over the line that have been there since day 1. It may not be the best rule but it does state the rule, penalty and above all has not changed since day 1. Why is this such a big issue? When you get a ticket for going the wrong way on the street can you use the defence that I only went a bit the wrong way?

Last year we were upset that the rules continually were changing and now we are upset that they are not. No wonder FIRST has a problem figuring out what is best when we can't decide. Again I state my point, Rules should not be changed during competition season. Explanations are OK but don't change the rules.

Re: Overdrive <G22> poll: yea or nay?
 

I would add to this Steve, that the rules should be enforced AS WRITTEN, and not "as we meant", and of course, after the initial picking apart by the community in the first X days after kickoff

Re: Overdrive <G22> poll: yea or nay?
 

Steve, it's a big issue because it's being called in something like 75%+ of matches. It's affecting the outcome of many of those matches. I get that it's been there since day 1. Everyone keeps saying that. So what. If it really, truly was such an easy rule for everyone to follow, then why is this penalty being assessed more than any other rule that I can think of in the history of FIRST? That's my point. Regardless of how easy it is for many of you to follow, LOTS of teams seem to be having problems with it - this fact cannot be denied, can it? I get that they should learn to fix it. Fine, whatever. In the meantime, it's creating a lousy situation for spectators, young teams, new mentors, and potential sponsors.

How many of you would keep watching an (American) football game if the refs threw a flag on 3 out of every 4 downs? There's been lots of sports analogies (even though the FIRST mantra is that we want to be better examples than many athletes), but I can't think of any sport where there are anywhere near as many penalties as we are seeing in this game.

Re: Overdrive <G22> poll: yea or nay?
 

Pre-VCU, I would have said "Bad but can be fixed". Post-VCU after actually experiencing it, I'd say "Good but can be improved". I'd like some sort of indicator for when a violation has happened, much like what Al said and for the same reasons.

Thanks for the detailed poll Alan, and a bump.

Re: Overdrive <G22> poll: yea or nay?
 

I don't know if anyone said it was and easy rule to FOLLOW, but it is an easy rule to understand. It is part of the game challenge and, as such, should be penalized if not followed. It's not necessarily supposed to be easy. In fact, I would argue that part of what makes FIRST fun is that it is NOT easy. Yes, it can make the game difficult for spectators (and teams also), but if it is a big concern then teams need to adjust their strategies to try to avoid receiving this penalty.

Re: Overdrive <G22> poll: yea or nay?
 

The most tense time in a match and the one that draws everyone in is just before the scores are announced. Did someone get penalized? Were the real time scores correct? Who really won? How much more drama can be added than that? The teams that win celebrate and the teams that lose should celebrate too. It doesn't matter how you "correct" the rule there will still be variances and close calls. There will still be unhappy people. There will still be complaints. To be honest how can FIRST make us all happy? How many people in reality really are totally upset and disgruntled? Most of those that I saw at the one regional I was at were having a great time and were accepting what was happening as part of the game.

Re: Overdrive <G22> poll: yea or nay?
 

Here I must disagree with you.

The rule has been in place since kickoff. The designs for the field, a week later. Teams that did not look at the field setup and where the blind spots would be are now complaining because they cannot see their robot.

It is not the GDCs fault that some teams did not take into account field design and driver viewing angle (I learned all abot that in Stack Attack) when they worked on their strategy and now, because of this failing, they want the rules to change.

All I can say is I am very happy that the GDC decided to not change the rules.

P.S. As far as viewing the robot ... have you ever considered putting your robocoach on the other side of the field and give hand signals?


JM(NS)HO

Re: Overdrive <G22> poll: yea or nay?
 

It would be neat to see the position of the robocoach mined further for the value that it offers in this game as part of the drive team/alliance.

Re: Overdrive <G22> poll: yea or nay?
 

Remember that you have to be in the RoboCoach Zone on your side of the field. Side, not end. If you are Red, you can be in a RoboCoach Zone next to either color Alliance (drive) Zone, but you must be on the Red side of the field (same side as the Red Finish Line).

Re: Overdrive <G22> poll: yea or nay?
 

Gary,
Apologies for being unclear.
I meant that I would like to see the robocoach position continue to be looked at for its value. That was what I meant.

Re: Overdrive <G22> poll: yea or nay?
 

Yes. Planned on it from Day 1. Placing a coach in the far right position gives them a better angle to view passing lanes as your bot makes the lane change from your side of the field to the opposing side, where a lot of the congestion takes place.

Now getting our drive team to appropriately view and utilize our robocoach's hand signal feedback - we're still working on that one.

Re: Overdrive <G22> poll: yea or nay?
 

I haven't seen a field or comp in person yet so could someone tell me if all driver stations have a clear view of their down field robocoach? I was hopping that the robocoach could give hand signal to driver to take inside or outside turn.

Re: Overdrive <G22> poll: yea or nay?
 

Jane, you weren't unclear. At Kettering we had to keep moving Red RoboCoaches from one side of the Blue Alliance Zone to the other side, so they would be in a Red RoboCoach Zone. (And vice-versa, there was no monopoly on color mismatches.) The RoboCoach had only gotten the instruction from their team, "Go down to the other end and signal us when ..." forgetting she had to be in the proper color zone.

Perhaps the zones should be marked out in colored gaffer tape, not white.

Another reminder - after Hybrid is over, the RoboCoach can move into the Alliance Zone (if on the same end of the field, of course).

Re: Overdrive <G22> poll: yea or nay?
 

I have not been to a comp either, but based on the pictures I saw earlier in another <G22> thread there is a good chance that you cannot see them clearly if you are in the far left station - you would have to look through the center barrier. However, as Paul Copioli also pointed out, the coach can make use of the fact that he/she can move throughout your entire alliance zone to try to get a view of things.

Re: Overdrive <G22> poll: yea or nay?
 

Through a misunderstanding about a signaling device, 116 thought of an interesting use of robocoaches for purposes such as directing your drive team. Initially a 116 member didn't realize that 1731's signaling device (4 massive colored flashlights) was being read by a CMU cam on the robot, and thought it was being used to signal the drive crew. We then realized that signaling devices such as that actually could be extraordinarily effective (more so than hand signals, which are visible, but hard to see) for signaling to your drive crew as well as your robot.
Additionally remember that you may still use your robocoach for actually signaling the robot during the tele-operated phase of the game as well. Depending on your programming, it may or may not make sense to have your robocoach help navigate the opposite corners of the field to avoid programming (or at least act as an anti-penalty check if you give him/her some sort of power to stop the robot).

Re: Overdrive <G22> poll: yea or nay?
 

Having seen the pictures on here our Drive team checked out the field at VCU as soon as they were able and pronounced it "not as bad as the pictures." As the field lighting varies by arena this wasn't a big surprise.

Re: Overdrive <G22> poll: yea or nay?
 

I agree with the comments that "intent" should be determined. At the AZ regional there was a match with 120 or 130 penalty points (can’t remember which) and 90-100 of them were in Hybrid mode, the team was just spinning in circles around the lines, not intentionally I would imagine. I think when a situation like this arises, completely taking an alliance out of a match before it really begins warrants change. I can understand rules for robots destroying the field, or leaving the field of play, which deserves an E-stop/disable from the refs, but this seems a little excessive. Also; there seems to be about 20-30 penalty point average in most matches from what I have seen (NJ/Az regional).

Re: Overdrive <G22> poll: yea or nay?
 

Advocates of for G22 would tell you to hit the Estop to prevent the bot from racking up so many penalties. But then again it probably wasn't your bot that incurred all of the penalties. This seems to be that "luck" factor that's required to take you to the finals.

I like the cross-field signalling idea. Currently our robocoach sits on our side after Hybrid and cheers when we do something great, and that's about it. I never noticed if 1731 used their signaling device in teleoperated mode.

Re: Overdrive <G22> poll: yea or nay?
 

Sorry about my earlier post, I had just come from reading this thread, which contains some fairly bitter anti-G22 posts, so seeing a result like 60% in favour (even if that support is qualified) surprised me. I wasn't trivializing the opposition, I was just surprised to see it so low after reading a thread that was 50-50ish in terms of favouring/decrying G22.

Perhaps I should've said "it is uncommon to post unprovoked in support of a rule". If we assume that teams are mostly happy with the game this year, than we would expect a post like yours for every rule in the rulebook.

Re: Overdrive <G22> poll: yea or nay?
 

G22 has caused some pretty heated debate, and IMO, is ok, but needs to be tweaked. Its causing too many people to get penalties when they are inadvertently breaking the plane, either due to robot rotation, or visibility issues.

I would LIKE to see it changed such that (and yes, I know I'm living in a fantasy world) if less than 50% of the robot crosses the line in the reverse direction AND the robot gains no scoring advantage by doing so (ie. doesnt influence a TRACKBALL, doesn't contact another ROBOT) I dont think the robot should be penalized. I think this modification would keep the intent of the rule intact, while allowing for incidental plane breaking non-consequential to the outcome of the game.

Re: Overdrive <G22> poll: yea or nay?
 

A thought I just had. The vast majority of <G22> violations happened on the lane divider lines, not the finish lines. I suspect it is related to turning vs going straight. The funny thing though, I cannot remember if there are more violations at the far end of the field vs near end. In fact, I remember one team who were dinged twice in Hybrid mode claim that they didn't cross at all. It happened right in front of them, so visibility wasn't an issue.

I'll pay more attention this weekend to see if near-end/far-end makes much of a difference.

Re: Overdrive <G22> poll: yea or nay?
 

if i had to estimate it would probably be 70% farside and 30% near side(from what i have seen), alot of the near side occuring in hybrid mode, and the far side during teleoperated period.

Re: Overdrive <G22> poll: yea or nay?
 

Al basically said it all. The huge number of penalties we see from <G22> are accidents because of the problem he described, or forgetting that 1/2" of your 42" wide ball holding mechanism re-crossed the line when you turned, though the base of the robot did not.

Re: Overdrive <G22> poll: yea or nay?
 

Apologies to Alan for continuing the debate here with perhaps a slightly different perspective.

I would argue that requiring teams to live up to the high standard of G22 is exactly what FIRST is about. For too long educational standards have been slipping (in this country) due to lowering expectations in the classroom. The end result is a less educated society which is less competitive with the rest of the world. I stand firm for applying the rule as written and as it has been enforced the last two weeks of regionals because we are here to show that difficult tasks are obstacles to be conquered not avoided. Tweaking G22 to make it easier for teams to avoid penalties is admitting defeat. Some are saying that G22 is just too darned hard to adhere to, so let's lower our expectations to get more people over the bar. I reject this argument. If we accept the premise that FIRST is about changing paradigms, is about celebrating technology and innovation the way we celebrate athletics, then we should accept G22 as a difficult standard that must be adhered to.

Most opponents/detractors of G22 argue that the large number of penalties being called is effecting the outcomes of matches. This is true in some cases but I haven't seen any data supporting the MOST assertion. Even if violation of G22 were effecting the outcome of ALL matches, however, I wouldn't support any relaxation of the rule. In light of this year's homework assignment, some have gotten the impression that the emphasis this year is on the competition, rather than the process leading up to the competition. The difference between the two is an argument better left for another thread. I will argue, however, that even though the homework this year is about building publicity for FIRST, the intention is to raise public awareness for the PROCESS. In our media driven society, it is almost essential that FIRST receive adequate media attention in order to obtain the larger goal of creating a paradigm shift that makes science and technology popular again. However, this does not mean we have to lower the high standards set forth every year. Once we start relaxing the rules, erosion of quality occurs.

Every year we get a new game. Every year there are many challenges and obstacles to overcome to meet the parameters set forth in the game. Every year some people have objections to some of these challenges. Am I saying that no one should ever object to any of the rules? Of course not. Sometimes clarification is needed. Sometimes a rule just doesn't fit with the game. G22 is clear and the GDC has stated that there will be no change to the rule in how it is worded OR in how it is enforced. For the teams that still have competitions to attend you now have a choice: Meet the challenge of G22 and overcome it, or get penalized every match and complain. Which team are you going to be?

Re: Overdrive <G22> poll: yea or nay?
 

All I can say in response TubaMorg is that I would rather legitimately win a match against another team than to win only because they were called on an unintentional violation of G22

Re: Overdrive <G22> poll: yea or nay?
 

I don't think they ever did actually use them in teleop, but they certainly would have been able to use them not only to signal the robot, but give instructions to the drive team as well. One of our members confusion about it just spawned the idea for it.

Re: Overdrive <G22> poll: yea or nay?
 

G22 & the way it's worded isn't really a "challenge" to overcome. It's more like having to stay inside the lines in 1st grade. It's like a speed limit in the middle of a sunny day in the desert with no one around for miles. These are other examples of blind rules that must be followed just because of rules. If we blindly believe that the GDC is always correct in their rules then I simply must refer us all back to the principles derived in this very wonderfully written post about what being professional means.

More relative to FRC, when something breaks and we get 3+ penalties for that instance, is G22 still considered a "challenge"? Particularly teams who are allied with other bots that seem to break more often than other bots ... is it still a "challenge" that the whole alliance is penalized?

Re: Overdrive <G22> poll: yea or nay?
 

If this is such an issue then why aren't teams being more careful on the far side of the field? A 10 point ding would make you think twice about making that turn if you aren't sure you're in position. Based on the ongoing penalty totals many of the drivers are not making the necessary adjustments. If your robot can't make a tight turn without crossing back over the plane then it's a limitation of the design and you need to make a wider turn. Instead of calling on the GDC to relax the rules you need to be calling on the drivers to adjust their lines on the turns.

Re: Overdrive <G22> poll: yea or nay?
 

I think the rule is fine, but can be improved. Having a momentary incursions across the plane carry the same penalty as, say, impeding a robot in the process of hurdling doesn't seem appropriate. "The punishment doesn't fit the crime."

Either apply an "advantage" rule (i.e. the offending robot made contact with a Trackball or an opposing alliance robot as a result of crossing the plane) or reduce the point deduction for the penalty (5 points).

Re: Overdrive <G22> poll: yea or nay?
 

Exactly, it could be like NASCAR, they're not allowed to go below the blend line (the yellow(or is it white?) line at the bottom of the track), but if they do, theres no penalty unless they gained a position by doing so.

Re: Overdrive <G22> poll: yea or nay?
 

Yes it is. The distance and viewing angles are most definately a challange to the drive team.

Then why are teams having such troubles with this???

I believe TubaMorg stated he does not believe in 'Blindly' following the GDCs rules.

And professional engineers look for how to overcome an obstacle (Which I view <G22> as).


Have you ever considered having your scout team tell you that your alliance partner 'tends to break' in a way that causes penalties??? Have you ever considered helping them fix what breaks so that they won't break when you are out on the field.

All of your arguments against <G22> are nothing more than challanges that can be overcome ... if you put forth the effort. Taking mulligans is easy, shooting from the deep rough is difficult. FIRST is about overcoming difficult.

Again Just my $.02

Re: Overdrive <G22> poll: yea or nay?
 

Sorry, but if your robot is spinning in circles in hybrid mode and giving you penalties, then that's a programming error, not a problem with the rules...

That said, I think that modifying the rule to say the entire robot has to go back over the line, not just 1/4" of it, satisfies both the intent of the rule and fixes the problem.

That said, it's a bit late to be changing rules now that so many competitions have already run...

Re: Overdrive <G22> poll: yea or nay?
 

I'd be interested to see a poll / the response from drivers only. While lots of people here are spectating as to how easy it should be to follow G22, I'd be interested to see how many of those people have been down on the field at driver level while they were being incurred.

G22 is not easy to follow, by any means. And when I say not easy, I don't mean that it's something that drivers could get better at with more practice, it's something that if a team wants to play the game in an efficient manner, is almost a probability. It'd be interesting to break down the statistics as far as how many G22 penalties each team has received based on robot type (my guess would be that teams that don't handle the ball at all would have the fewest infractions.)

The game is difficult enough in trying to catch a round object larger than the length and width of your bot. Worrying about crossing over lines on the track completely changes the gameplay. It's almost as if G22 is now defining how the game is played (from a strategical sense,) instead of it being a rule that prevents reverse traffic.

Literally, most infractions are tips of robots crossing over lines. Perhaps the rule could be modified so that the penalty is given if the ENTIRE bot crosses the line backwards. This would make a lot more sense from the driver perspective.


And as an aside,
At BAE, the tape on one side of the box WAS colored gaffers tape. Perhaps this isn't standard, but it really did help there.

Jacob

Re: Overdrive <G22> poll: yea or nay?
 

Okay, as a driver at a regional last week, I'll give my opinion. I was driving a tank steered 6WD that is pretty maneuverable (not so much in high gear, but you can't have everything). I incurred three <G22> penalties; I don't remember the first one (all I remember is that I was really pissed at myself because it was really stupid on my part), and, as I recall, the second + third were when I over corrected slowing down to avoid ramming stuff at 13ft/s. That said, all of the times I got penalties, it could have been avoided by having a bit more practice or by driving a bit more carefully.

The optical trick is really freaky, but I didn't find it hugely annoying. It lessens the higher you look, so I often navigated by looking at the top of our gripper hoops. I don't think it is a huge issue.

However, I would be in favor of adding a 7-8" wide "grace zone" around the lines that can be violated for very short periods of time (less than 2 sec, unless another robot prevents the offending robot from exiting the "grace zone"). Such a change would allow drivers to correct quick mistakes, and give teams time to smack the e-stop during autonomous hybrid mode. It would also maintain the intent of the rule (prevent clockwise travel), and it would be hard to take advantage of.

Re: Overdrive <G22> poll: yea or nay?
 

It's a rule (law). Follow it or take the penalty. You don't have to like it. It just is. Every day of my life I have to deal with rules, regulations, codes, laws, ordinances that I don't like or are just plain badly written and enforced. I just deal with them to the best of my ability. I don't like it and you don't have to like it. It just is. Though in my life, I have taken up the cause to remedy some very bad local ordinances and code addendum's. With a constant persistent effort and the help of others have accomplished change. Our legal regulatory system does work kind off. If you want change then there needs to be a loud cry for a specific change and unity. Allot of people
screaming for different things ia just noise and nobody listens.

Re: Overdrive <G22> poll: yea or nay?
 

exactly my view

-Vivek

Re: Overdrive <G22> poll: yea or nay?
 

If this poll is a good representation of the FIRST community, then most of us are ok with g22 as is. With at least 74%, as of this post, saying g22 is good. I didn't think it was going to change after week one, and was glad that is didn't. It's a good rule, some what strict, but still good.

I've read here on CD that people think the refs are deciding the game. That is wrong, the teams are committing the penalties and the refs are just calling what they are seeing. I do agree that the penalties are deciding the matches, but its on the teams, not the refs, to change that.

Re: Overdrive <G22> poll: yea or nay?
 

~60% of us believe it needs to be modified in some form or fashion, even if we think it's good.

Re: Overdrive <G22> poll: yea or nay?
 

Yes. If we opened a poll that had two options:

The rule is fine.
Something needs to be done to the rule.

64% of us would say that something needs to be done to the rule. And, as I said before, I would be interested as to the percentage of the people that say that the rule is fine that are drivers.

Just imagine going an entire day of shopping and errands, etc. without shifting into the reverse gear, once.

Not impossible (as a tractor-trailer driver might say), but not an easy (and dare I say reasonable *ducks-and-covers*) request. I suppose that it is unreasonable, as I support the rule being changed.

By modifying the rule to allow bots to break the plane, but not completely cross the line, would be the equivalent (in my mind) of allowing you to back out of your space at the parking lot at the mall. Could you have found a way to park so you wouldn't have to back up? Yes. Would it have been a real pain, and consume a lot of your TIME? Yes. Your car has the ability to back up to avoid obstacles. So do our robots.

Jacob

Re: Overdrive <G22> poll: yea or nay?
 

I thought I worded the poll more clearly than that. Half of the people who consider it to be a good rule think it could be improved, not necessarily that it needs to be. I'm pretty sure that someone who considers the rule to be in need of a modification would have chosen the "bad, but could be fixed" option.

And some of those who think it could be made better have conceded that their proposed improvement would be practically impossible for the referees to deal with.

Re: Overdrive <G22> poll: yea or nay?
 

Earlier when I had said that it would have been difficult for the refs to call, I was referring to if the rule had been modified so that you couldn't cross two consecutive lines.

If the rule was changed so that you only receive a penalty if your ENTIRE bot reverse crosses a line, this would be no more difficult to score, because refs would just have to look for bots LEAVING the plane, instead of ENTERING the plane.

And I agree. I had misspoken in my previous post. 64% of us don't agree that it NEEDS to be changed, but that it COULD be changed. Thanks for the correction.

Jacob

Re: Overdrive <G22> poll: yea or nay?
 

This isn't really a valid analogy because there are only four points in the track that you cannot reverse through. Think of it more like a one-way security barrier (tire shredder) in your office parking lot. Since the penalties don't occur in every match it would be reasonable to suggest it's avoidable.
Maybe they should change the field and add a one-way barrier between the quadrants instead.

Re: Overdrive <G22> poll: yea or nay?
 

I personally voted for the rule is good but could be improved. I would like to see it improved. Improving it could be as simple as a really wide and better visibility tape used to mark the lane divider.

As a side note I read Lil' Laveries comment about the signalling and got very excited and started to look for flags to order until one of our team members found this rule;
T22> The only equipment that may be brought on to the field is the OPERATOR CONSOLE,
reasonable decorative items, and special clothing and/or equipment required due to a
disability. Other items, particularly those intended to provide a competitive advantage for
the ROBOCOACH, are prohibited.

Kind of sucks because I race in a couple amatuer racing series and caution and stop flags are great and valuable for partially blind corners.

To those that don't feel that a rule like that effects outcome much, tell that to a team that only lost 2 matches 1 due to a penalty by a teammate and were thus lower in the alliance selection ranking.

All this being said, we are trying to live within the current form of the rule. Unfortunately now our scouts spend a good chunk of there time seeking out penalty bots (those that regularly acquire more penalties than positive points) so that we can spend most of our strategy session giving driver's ed tips or modifying our teammates machines to steer better instead of working on scoring strategies and helping autonomous routines.

I like the intent of the rule, and with a little modification (very little) I think it coulb be a great rule.

Now to figure out how to get past rule T22.......

Re: Overdrive <G22> poll: yea or nay?
 

<T22> is easy to "get around" ...:
1> American sign language can transfer information fairly quickly.
2> TarMac crew chief signals give excellent directional commands from a good distance.

There are many ways to "get around" <T22> without breaking any rules. And most of them work well in very noisy enviroments :cool: