hybrid rules are not quite stable..
 

hi everyone!
while watching game #64 in the ST.Louis regional (http://www.thebluealliance.net/tbatv...p?matchid=5276)
a slight rule missunderstanding occured to me:
team 525 starts the match by knocing their opponent's ball. the narrator says clearly that "they wont get points for that" but the other team didnt get points too(you can clearly see 3 robots passing the first line and the finished the hybrid with 16 so no points were added).
The game rules clearly say that the other alliance should've gotten these points:
" <G08> All TRACKBALL scores are awarded to the ALLIANCE associated with the scored TRACKBALL, independent of the ROBOT that may have caused the scoring action to occur.
<G09> During the HYBRID PERIOD, each TRACKBALL that is removed from the OVERPASS (i.e. completely removed from its initial TARGET LOCATION and not in contact with any portions of the OVERPASS) at the end of the HYBRID PERIOD will earn 8 points. "
http://www.usfirst.org/uploadedFiles...0Game-RevG.pdf


and i've double checked in the Q&A and it says the same thing there:
"If we knock down an opponent's ball during Hybrid Period?
Posted by FRC1594 at 01/09/2008 05:34:39 pm
Who scores if we knock an opponent's ball off the overpass in the Hybrid Period?

Re: If we knock down an opponent's ball during Hybrid Period?
Posted by GDC at 01/10/2008 09:22:16 pm
As noted in Rule <G08>, all Trackball scores are awarded to the Alliance associated with the scored Trackball, independent of what Robot may have caused the scoring action. So if you knock your opponent's Trackball off the Overpass during the Hybrid Period, the opponent will receive the points."
http://www.usfirst.org/uploadedFiles...0Game-RevG.pdf

was there a mistake in this specific game? BTW, not that its any of my buisness but the red alliance needed those points to win..
any light shed on this issue, and any comments are extremely weelcome..
sorry its a bit ling, hope you'll read it anyway and enjoy :)
thanks, Ziv

i've forgot a crutial question: what will happen from now on? will it be 8 points for the other team or none? (crutial because pur aoutonomus mode might be upgraded if its zero...something to worry about if you are competing against us at the Israeli regional :))

Re: hybrid rules are not quite stable..
 

Seems to me you've detected a glaring error, that could have potentially changed the outcome of the regional.

EDIT: Upon looking at the match constituents, Red winning would not likely have changed anything significant about their position, but team 525 would have been 2 to 3 seeds back (still within top 8) if they'd 'lost' that match. This could have effected it.

I've already been flamed at for sounding off on the referees, as well as commended in private by some for not being afraid to say what many CDers won't.

All I'm going to say on this one is one word that is of utmost importance, and FIRST seems to be having alot of trouble with of late: consistency.

Re: hybrid rules are not quite stable..
 

The Rules and the scoring software are fine. It will be handled properly to score as the rules state. The Trackball removed from the Overpass counts as 8 points to the same color alliance, regardless which alliance drops the ball.

This appears to be an issue of human error. Although the video does not clearly show how many lines the red robots cross, it can be clearly seen that all 3 robots cross the finish line, so there should be a minimum of 20 points, not 16.

It is not intuitive how to indicate Trackball displacement from the Overpass on the referee scoring boxes. Referees need a little bit better training here - something that can't be covered in the online course because the boxes aren't available until they are at the competition.

It is impossible to know here, but if a Red team member appealled to the Head Ref, the score might have been corrected.

Re: hybrid rules are not quite stable..
 

Ziv,
Good eye, and thank you for posting facts that support your point of view. It is refreshing to see things presented in a Professional manner. (Yes, I am referring to another thread.)
I agree with your observation.



1075guy,

Please do not be afraid to express your opinion. Just make sure your comments are supported by facts and not just venting. Ziv has given a great example here.
As for your comment about consistency.
Remember, the Ref's are volunteers and only are representing FIRST. They are not FIRST. So, you comment about FIRST and consistency is not really supported.
Now, I will agree, consistency in how the rules have been applied this year, from regional to regional, does seem to be a little less than consistent. This is just based on my own observations of the web casts. I have not attended, and will not be able to attend :mad:, any regionals this year. But ,you must admit, within any given regional, the Ref's have been consistent. Their interpretation of the rules is equally applied to both Alliances, each and every match, throughout the competition. At least their application of the rules is fair to all.

Re: hybrid rules are not quite stable..
 

I agree that the "hybrid ball" is being dropped.

In AZ this past weekend, our team along with 842 and 2368 were in quarterfinal match 3. 842 crossed 3 lines, 2368 crossed 2 while we crossed 1....our score for hybrid was 16 points.

When the alliance went to contest in the "contestation box", the head ref shrugged it off as it happened during hybrid so there was no way to fix it. We did win the match, but had we lost by a few points it would've knocked us out of the regional prematurely.

I must say if this problem is running ramped throughout other regionals it must be fixed, its simply unacceptable.

Re: hybrid rules are not quite stable..
 

FLR had a similar issue, but later in the day they changed the match and the other alliance had received the win due to their hybrid points not being awarded. in the end it was proper.

Re: hybrid rules are not quite stable..
 

The red alliance also ended the match with 68 pts. before bonus, not the 76 pts. you see on the final score. The Real Time Scoring is unofficial. It may contain mistakes that the refs cannot correct until the end of the match.

Re: hybrid rules are not quite stable..
 

To my knowledge, the real-time scoring input is the only method referees have for recording the score during the match. Only for counting laps during teleoperated mode is it the redundant system. In such a case, it's absurd to think that they're meant to input the score on those devices, mentally recall every scoring action, and watch and call penalties correctly -- and all simultaneously.

Re: hybrid rules are not quite stable..
 

Apparently I did not express the intent of my post clearly.

One or more of the first couple posts in this thread appeared to say "OMG St. Louis Regional is tainted this matched was messed up SOOOOO BAD."

I was merely trying to say that the official recorded score appears to be correct, including the knockdown of the red alliance's trackball during hybrid by 525.

I was not trying to say that this is something to be relied on, or that it happens often.

Re: hybrid rules are not quite stable..
 

http://www.thebluealliance.net/tbatv...p?matchid=4965 (note the position of the blue bots after hybrid ends, and the score)
There was another one that I can't find right now where only 2 of our 5 hurdles were scored.

On both of these occasions I went to the ref question box to discuss it. On both occasions they pulled up the scoring program for that match, and confirmed that the 2 lines and the 3 hurdles were, simply put, not entered in the computer.

The scoring staff are human. They may make errors. Sometimes it decides a match. However, it was stressed to us on multiple occasions that the scores are final and they do not adjust them.

Re: hybrid rules are not quite stable..
 

Yes, it is true that this years game has alot of human responsibility to keep track of score.
In our Quarterfinals match 2, it said that we only went around the track once. when that is what we did the whole match while playing defense is lap.we were defending HOT, doing just as many laps as they did but yet they got 5 laps i think. (we still woulda lost the match, its just that the scores could be affected such as this case.)
It should be noted that FIRST has never had this much human calculation to worry about. 6 robots crossing 2 different lines while having balls cross seperate from the robot, and then balls flying over. I think the game should have less human scoring and more automated.

Re: hybrid rules are not quite stable..
 

Much is being asked of FRC referees this year. Watching all the robots and trackballs, entering raw scorekeeping data, and calling penalties all at the same time is not absurd -- only very difficult. I recall a few instances of referees accompanying the head ref to the scoring table after a match had ended, to explain to the scorekeeper (in detail) both why and how a score needed adjusting to correct for a data entry mistake that had been made while the match was being played. After the scoring data had been corrected, the same referee was called over to discuss penalties. What amazes me is that our referee/scorekeeping/field volunteers were able to meet these challenges while keeping the matches on schedule.

Re: hybrid rules are not quite stable..
 

And this is the bit that bothers me. If the scoring was done WRONG and there is irrefutable evidence to prove it (ie. a team member videotaped the match), they should rescind the incorrect score.

Also, for the first several matches of the day, NASA/VCU was not scoring any line except the alliances own finish line in hybrid mode. This to me was a much bigger issue, as it ran on for a number of matches before it was fixed.

Hybrid mode scoring will make or break many matches in this year's game, by design, and when the refs aren't scoring something so integral to the game correctly, I have a problem with it.

Re: hybrid rules are not quite stable..
 

My response to this would be that they have been selected by FIRST to represent FIRST, and therefore their mistakes are by extension FIRST's mistakes also.

EDIT: Sorry about the double post

Re: hybrid rules are not quite stable..
 

While I may agree (we had video of both matches), it's not up to us to determine how FIRST runs their competitions.

Re: hybrid rules are not quite stable..
 

This is where you and I differ, I feel that we SHOULD be the ones to determine how FIRST runs the competitions. FIRST is not some guys in NH, FIRST is US, the teams that compete.

Re: hybrid rules are not quite stable..
 

Actually I think you guys differ in many many Many MANY more ways than that ...


my humblest apologies to CD for the OT remark ...

Re: hybrid rules are not quite stable..
 

I filled in as the "manual scorekeeper" (pen & paper records of final scores) for about 10-15 matches at VCU. During that span, scores were adjusted from the real time scores in at least 3 matches. Hybrid was the most common adjustment, as refs knew they had either missed pressing the button or pressed it one too many times, etc.
Also note that there are nine refs this year, one on each corner, two on each finish line (one for balls, one for bots) and one head ref. They do talk to each other and pick up each other's mistakes more than most people think they do.

Re: hybrid rules are not quite stable..
 

Would you use the same video to prove that your opponent won?

Also, please see the thread on instant replay from a few years ago. I believe this very situation was brought up.

If the hybrid mode (or any other part of the game) is being scored incorrectly, then they need to find out why and fix it. That is all I have to say on this.

Re: hybrid rules are not quite stable..
 

That depends on a few things A) if I noticed they scored the opposing alliance incorrectly (unlikely as I'd be watching my own score) B) The opposing alliance noticed, and asked if we'd taken video, I would let them view, and if they were correct, absolutely.

Re: hybrid rules are not quite stable..
 

Also, this could be a case of the announcer saying one thing and the score being entirely different. Often, an announcer may say something that the head ref may disagree with.

Announcers don't keep the score. They are fairly outgoing people, make witty remarks, and wear goofy shirts. We can't take them too seriously. :)

Andy b.

Re: hybrid rules are not quite stable..
 

There seems to be a problem. What i would like to know is how teams are handling this? Do the robocoach or driver coach keep track of your score. do you have someone in stands? does he signal you if score is right? aren't only student members of drive team allowed to talk to head ref? would like to know if we need to set up sub group out of scouting team. thanks.

Re: hybrid rules are not quite stable..
 

In 2006 Division Galileo our team was breezing through qualification matches #1 seed, then one match came and if you watched the match it was quite obvious our alliance put in more balls than the other alliance, we questioned the ref and the cool part is the other alliance that "won" also questioned it. We found out that the ref's had counted all of the 3 point shots as 1 point shots and 1 pointers as 3 pointers. we didn't have anybody dumping...

First replayed that match at the end of qualifiers on saturday, we won and were undefeated #1 seed. The part about this i like is the fact the ref did something about it and the mistake was corrected in a fashion.

Re: hybrid rules are not quite stable..
 

there was a match that we were not counted in the autonomous at all, while are other alliance partners were counted. again this was probably a human error by not backing up the computer system correctly. we contested the match but it was finalized before we could do any thing.