Re: Why is anyone surprised at ref problems?
 

[This is another anonymously coauthored post]

Last there was a post entitled "Why is anybody surprised at ref problems." This post was posted by a user under a second account. Since this is banned by CD rules the account was deleted and eventually the thread was also removed.

Many people commented on the bravery of the poster prior to the thread disappearing. I am afraid that these people might take the removal of the thread the wrong way and believe that this indicates some attempt at suppressing dissent on CD. I'd be willing to bet good money that this isn't the case. It is logical to think that threads from banned members are removed regardless of their content.

It is a shame that this thread was removed as there was a great deal of professional and mature discussion which spawned from the topic which was raised. Thankfully this is the internet and so nothing can ever be truly deleted. Here's the original thread.

Now, obviously we lost a few posts since the last cache, but I would love to hear a continuation of the excellent debate and general discussion which this topic spawned.

Re: Why is anyone surprised at ref problems?
 

For ease of discussion:

Re: Why is anyone surprised at ref problems?
 

I maybe one of the few it seems on Chief Delphi that found that the ref's did as good a job as any other year. Yes they made some mistakes, but they are human, being human means your going to make some mistakes. Honestly its not like they are out to penalize everyone(any refs reading...if you are, be nice to my team :-) jk) honestly, i think people are blowing this ref thing all outta proportion.

just my 2 pennies

Jake

Re: Why is anyone surprised at ref problems?
 

I have a hard time believing that someone would honestly fear retribution against a team for having expressed an opinion about an official's attitude. It's also not that difficult to figure out who this "anonymous" poster is, so going against policy and creating a second account is unhelpful in that regard. I personally have a tendency to treat most things posted under a false name as exaggerated, unreliable, and generally not worth taking too seriously. The presentation interferes with the message.

I also have a hard time understanding why this is being discussed in a public forum full of people who have no power to act (i.e. students) and who can only be affected negatively by the various comments and complaints. There are better channels for addressing this.

I am not suggesting that such issues be swept under the rug. They just should not be hung out in public. I know of other concerns that have been resolved satisfactorily behind the scenes without being turned into a spectacle on the Chief Delphi forums. This strikes me as a situation that should receive the same treatment.

Re: Why is anyone surprised at ref problems?
 

Alan I think you have completely missed the mark here, and I think that the original posters intent was to deter exactly the thought that you displayed here.

I am not agreeing or disagreeing or approving or disapproving of what the original poster said, but I DO see the times where censorship simply has no place. If someone said something that offended a person to the point of them wanting to anonymously post there disdain then I think it is something worth looking at.

Knowing who the referee was, that the poster was referring to, it nerves me to think they approach an arena of constructive criticism in such a way to take offense and lash back at people..

If students don't have any power to resolve an issue like this, than FIRST has lost all its meaning in my eyes. FIRST is about the students, so I think a few people who should have influence are the kids.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the meaning in your post, but I cannot say it did not shock me.

Re: Why is anyone surprised at ref problems?
 

I would find that excuse credible if you could explain the existence of these anonymous accounts. There is obviously a double standard. Some are allowed, even celebrated, while others are quick to receive a friendly reminder that the practice is prohibited.

Don’t bother trying to reconcile the two; it is obviously the content that gets a thread deleted. I wish everyone would quit trying to insult our intelligence by suggesting otherwise, or by objecting about the author’s secret identity when it’s the content that puts him or her off.

So what about the content of the OP? Does a person who has worked so hard deserve to be dragged through the mud because of a few words said in anger and frustration? I don’t think so. I think deletion was the right thing to do the first time, the second time, and this time too!

Re: Why is anyone surprised at ref problems?
 

If someone wants to make public their opinion, I think he or she should stand behind it. If someone sincerely feels afraid to speak out with a name attached, but still wants others to hear what he or she has to say, there is an established policy for anonymous posting.

FIRST is definitely about the students. On the other hand, it is not run by the students, and I think that is an important point. We mentors are trying to make the experience an inspirational one. What we do is obviously influenced by those for whom we are doing it. However, when a problem occurs involving a specific person, I believe it is much better to bring a relatively small group of dedicated adults to bear on the problem than to expect "the kids" to act to resolve it.

The students do not -- and should not -- have the authority to appoint or remove official FIRST representatives. There is much more involved in such decisions than can be -- or should be -- dealt with in a forum where all participants are permitted to speak without regard for credentials, experience, or special knowledge.

Again, I'm not trying to belittle the concerns. I'm just trying to point out that there are more appropriate avenues for addressing them. I trust that the appropriate people are hearing the complaints and that appropriate action will take place. I say this not because I know for certain that it is true in this case, but because I have seen it happen in enough other cases for me to have faith in the way FIRST operates.

Re: Why is anyone surprised at ref problems?
 

That's easy. I can even give two explanations, either of which ought to be sufficient.

First, those accounts are pseudonymous rather than anonymous. They represent a specific known entity. They might be fictional people, but they have an established background.

Second, the intent of those accounts is not to hide the poster from the consequences of posting. On the contrary, the intent is to protect the people reading the posts from being influenced by the history and present affiliations of the person writing them.

Yes, it's a double standard. One standard is for private individuals. The other standard is for public persona.

Re: Why is anyone surprised at ref problems?
 

Dealing with posters that make 2nd accounts or show no affiliation to a team often carry with them a problem..... and we at Chief Delphi inherit the problem.

Sometimes the person is hiding from their team because if their team leadership/sponsor knew their affiliation with them they would react toward the team and toward them. This is often the case when a youthful angry reaction to an event gets displayed without thought or concern. I have removed many, many posts at the request of the team leadership as the comments and content were issues that needed to stay inside the team and not in public forum.

As soon as I see a poster with no team # I send them a private e-mail asking why. If they do-not accept e-mail a very bright red flag goes up. I usually have their account banned because at that point there are issues that are not good for the community of FIRST. They are even trying to hide from us.

Sometimes I get a response back with a very good logical reason why... looking at the reason I make a decision to allow, ask them to reconsider their profile or in rare cases ban then. Usually when approached we can work out a compromise.

FIRST(no pun) and foremost is what is best for the community of FIRST.
Opinions, concerns expressed in the proper manner is the power of our community. Sharing our thoughts, expertise and opinions in the proper constructive way is growth and that is good for FIRST.

SOOOOOO...... Please lets move on, move up and develop the FIRST Community to its greatest potential. We can all learn, grow and express ourselves to keep FIRST a great experience.

Re: Why is anyone surprised at ref problems?
 

Well it seems to me you are making it about that person. A public forum is not the place to be discussing matters such as this. If you feel there was an issue with something that went on, take it up via private message with either the ChiefDelphi administrators, or the person you are discussing.

No good can come of a public forum rallying around and "burning someone at the stake". This is not saying that you shouldn't be discussing this with someone, if you have a problem, please take it up with the appropriate people, in private.

Thanks.

Re: Why is anyone surprised at ref problems?
 

Tom's right here. Let's not make this a personal attack on anyone, including the person who started this thread or anyone else. The issues at hand have been discussed and are continuing to be discussed in several threads including here and here. If you have concerns, air them out there, no need to hid behind an anonymous account. It's ok to be critical of FIRST when done professionally. We can all learn something new. FIRST can always get better but it can only get there when the faults and their possible solutions are pointed out.

Re: Why is anyone surprised at ref problems?
 

I think the most important post in that thread, sadly, wasn't cached. It was made by Mike Aubrey, mentor of team 47, Chief Delphi, and forum moderator. Basically it said that the Chief Delphi forums are not only a medium for FIRST teams to discuss and interact, but they also carry not only the team name of FRC 47, but the name of a major corporation (Delphi).
As a result unprofessional conduct, flame wars, and personal attacks are avoided by the wonderful crew of moderators and webmasters. The comments weren't deleted as an act of censorship or to "save face for FIRST", but rather to keep the conduct on this forum clean and within guidelines.

As for the anonymous "double standard", Brandon explained that in this post. Duplicate accounts are allowed if approved by the Chief Delphi moderating crew first.

Re: Why is anyone surprised at ref problems?
 

Normally I'd agree with you.

I hate to be snide, but it seems clear to me it's not ok. A well respected mentor was downright reamed by someone in a position of power for presenting their thoughts on what she saw with respect to refereeing, and what she thought could stand to improve.

It sure feels to me like anyone who questions the status quo is labeled a troublemaker nowadays.

Re: Why is anyone surprised at ref problems?
 

First off, let me preface this post with I hate to resurrect this and put it back on top, but some things need to be said.

1. This should never have been posted in a public forum such as CD. There are other avenues. PM, email, phone etc. We as mentors and leaders need to be better stewards of this program called FIRST and not make personal attacks on anyone, referees, judges, other mentors.

2. I have not read the thread except what was posted here. I do not know the call(s) that made the originator so upset. I don't care what the call was. We must remember the robot and the game are just tools to build the student. Yes, we are building and shaping young minds to operate in a world that is messed up, But let's do it the right way and make the magic happen without these distractions. If winning the game is so important that exchanges such as this were made, then the poster needs to be in another program.

3. I am going to tip my hand now and admit, yes, I am bias and have an agenda for this rant. I have known Dr. Browne for some 20 years, even before his days on a FIRST team. Even before FIRST was thought of. I cannot stand idly by while his character and integrity are being shot at. I can tell you that it is not in Aidan's character to tear apart anyone in a public forum. There are very few people in this world that I would trust my family with, Dr. Browne is one of them. His integrity is impeccable.

4. In my first conversation with Aidan after the game was revealed at SNHU, I asked why a game without any defense. He told me, that is what the teams wanted. Over the past 2 years the referees and the GDC were getting hammered with compaints about rough play, so the GDC decided to give the teams what they wanted, or what they thought they wanted, a game without defense. A game in which NO contact was allowed (outside the bumper zone.) So, I tell you this to illustrate that the GDC and the "makers of the magic" do listen and do care. Believe it or not, Dr. Browne is on your side.

I hope the original poster has calmed down enough to re read Aidans answer. A lot of times when we are upset and angy, the real meaning of a statement becoms cloudy and we read things into a statement that are just not there.

Re: Why is anyone surprised at ref problems?
 

I want to second what Dana has written. Aiden has great passion for FIRST and FIRST teams. He was a mentor on a team and felt he could make a bigger difference contributing to the game design and reffing. Aiden has taken measures to make sure the refs are certified, which is a bigger step than any of his predessesors. He is trying to fix what he thought was broken. Although his original response to Madison was a bit harsh, please do not judge him by one post. He is a wonderful human being who has dedicated a significant part of his life spreading the mission of FIRST.