Re: Why is anyone surprised at ref problems?
 

I have to agree with this one. What we dont tell rookie teams especially, is that not only do you have to build a robot to meet the game challenge, but you have to be able to handle "rough" play/defense that will try and prevent you from doing the game task(s). This was especially true last year. Only the most experienced drivers and robust robots were able to overcome with greater success robots that tried to stop them from scoring.
I have spoken with so many Hawaii rookie teams already that think all they have to worry about is trying to hurdle as if they were the only team on the field. They will be in for a rude awakening on the game speed, dynamics of 6 teams on the field, and defensive play.
I like the rule changes towards allowing teams to play the game.

BUT, this thread has several tangents and is beyond the nature of the game design. Its also about referees having adequate knowledge of the game, being consistent, and open to concerns graciously brought forth by teams both during the matches, competition and after. I have no strong opinions about either side, but only to say, its unfortunate when scores do not correctly reflect the scores it's supposed to be. Whatever solutions come about to improve on this, we all want the same thing.:D
I look forward to watching and participating in regional matches during weeks 4-6 and lets be optimistic things will go well.:D

Re: Why is anyone surprised at ref problems?
 

In my mind all of these people are VOLUNTEERING along with 99% of first adults and are taking time out of there lives to help us out. They are there for us and they are going to do the best job that they can. I think we need to give them a little slack now and then!

Re: Why is anyone surprised at ref problems?
 

Trying to discuss whether Dr. Browne is a good man is pulling a staw man argument, doubled with an ad hominem fallacy.

The matter of the fact is that a man representing a big organization with such an ethical component has a responsibility to always think twice before he speaks on a public forum such as CD and more broadly, the internet in general.

Onto another matter. Chief Delphi is free to censor any information and cannot be held accountable by any member. You are free to leave or stay from this place.

I for one have not seen the post itself, and I doubt that half the people posting here have. I am just making a general statement based on what I hear.

I don't think this is going anywhere really.

Francois

Re: Why is anyone surprised at ref problems?
 

Many people talk about not judging a book by its cover, but they also don't give most new members of Chief Delphi a chance. Dr. Browne, no matter what he stands for or what he says, would have been negative repped by the community with ALL fires against. Although he is an "elite" member of the FIRST community his limited posts, that range from questions for the fields in Atlanta to a few posts like the one we are discussing, are very little to give most of us, whom have never had the opportunity and probably will not, an idea of what kind of person he is and judge him on that.

I know when I joined the Chief community, I was told EACH posts represents ME, my team, and my sponsors. I do not think that being a key member of the GDC gives him immunity from that.

Many of the people on Chief are being hypocrites on this issue. If it was anyone less 'popular/important' I can bet anything that the CD community would have shunned this person and made him scared to return.

Hold EVERYONE to the same standards.


Pavan.

Re: Why is anyone surprised at ref problems?
 

This is hard to write.

Let us not forget that the game is a by-product of the goal. Regardless of what a ref said, get over it.

It is only a Game.Scholarships are not based on how well a team plays a game. Applications are.

No, I have not read, nor care to discuss the relevance to any individual, group, or organization.

Let's focus on the goals here. Are the FIRST team members learning skills to help them outside of HS and perhaps land a lucrative scholarship or job? Y or N?

Are the FIRST members learning teamwork? Y or N?

Are FIRST members learning that sometimes they will disagree with the opinions of someone in their command chain, even if it is different from their employer or school policies? Y or N?

If the above is YES, Are we as mentors / instructors teaching the students the proper methods to approach the subject? Sure it's a parent's job, but kids listen to neighbors better. Y or N?

Let's all move past this thread.

Personally, the Referee job performance at UCF in Florida was flawless. There was a last minute change to one of the rules that made perfect sense to me. The cross-over-the-line penalties were reduced.

It sometimes takes a week or two to get the discrepancies ironed out of the gray areas of the rules.

It's not like we are playing baseball. It's a new game.

Re: Why is anyone surprised at ref problems?
 

I believe that this year's ref problems are mostly due to GDC flaws. For example, they probably should have adopted Dave Flowerday's minor change to fix G22 (i.e. give "breaking the plane" the soccer definition rather than the basketball definition) after its flaws were revealed during week 1. If they had, the refs would've likely have been able to put much more time/effort into making more consistent and reliable touch and judgement foul calls instead of policing the lines. What I have seen is that in many matches the refs only have time to watch the lines plus the hurdlers. Lower tier robots are getting mugged (contact outside bumper zone) when the refs aren't looking and then getting called for incidental touch fouls while passing hurdlers that are blocking traffic.

The GDC really looks like they made this game hard to ref. Perhaps they should consult more with seasoned basketball refs when they develop. Ideally they design games where the refs usually stay in the background. That certainly didn't happen this year.:(