IFI vs FTC? Both offering competitions for next year!
 

I received an e-mail blast from VexRobotics directing me to their web site where they discussed the following. Let the debate begin!


"There is a coalition of partners launching a local, regional, national, global and virtual network of Vex Robotics Competitions for schools and teams to participate in annually! There will be many more Vex Robotics tournaments and events available as options next year than this past year. This program is being launched by a number of incredible partners dedicated to advancing Science, Technology, Engineering and Math to students and schools around the world. This coalition includes two different non-profit foundations along with many corporate partners and sponsors all focused on providing the best possible high quality, high tech, challenging, accessible, educational, fun and affordable program. Registration will open after the Vex World Championship on May 3rd. Tune in on May 3rd (the event will be webcast) to learn all the exciting details. The network of tournaments around the world will be very large, will continue to grow, will be very cost effective and easier for event organizers to run – providing many more options and opportunities for teams to play and compete with their Vex Robots throughout the United States and around the World. All Vex Robotics Events and Tournaments will be listed at www.robotevents.com"

Re: IFI vs FTC? Both offering competitions for next year!
 

Sounds good, I'm excited that they will continue their program, just because they are no longer involved with FTC its good to see many growing programs. Coming from a FIRST perspective the idea is to encourage and inspire the growth of these types of competitions regardless of their relation to FIRST. Anything that promotes science and technology is okay in my book. Granted it may not be on the FIRST platform but vex has proven to be a great platform and I hope IFI succeeds in growing the program bigger each year. I'm also extremely interested to see how many teams will remain as FTC or turn over to VEX or possibly a bunch of both, because both seem to be pretty affordable.

As for the actual platforms well, I guess the verdict will still be out, VEX is tried and true, tested and successful. I'm excited to see the product that FIRST that FTC ends up using, the final product not just what they have put on their blogs.

Re: IFI vs FTC? Both offering competitions for next year!
 

I've been following the FTC blog, and lots of schools seem really committed to Vex, so this only sounds like a good thing to me. I'm glad IFI seems determined to support Vex customers and make sure there are great events if FTC won't be available to them. I agree with the last post that more choices are good and hopefully they both do well. The team I'm helping start and mentor next year is going to do Vex, just because it sounds like it will be cheaper, we know it's really good, and it seems better and safer for a school classroom. That'll change if there aren't Vex events in our area, but it sounds like there probably will be.

Re: IFI vs FTC? Both offering competitions for next year!
 

Woo hoo! More robot choices! Think of how limited we would be if the Honda Civic was the only car available? It's a great car, sure, but there's plenty of room in the market for Toyota Corollas and Mazda 3's, too. I say, good on FIRST, and good on IFI. I suspect that Exothermic Robotics will do both types of events next year, if there is a local IFI tournament. More events, more platforms, more fun!

Re: IFI vs FTC? Both offering competitions for next year!
 

I am not a big fan of this idea only because they are doing it for profit. They realized that without the FTC cooperation (and all the money involved) the vex platform will become obsolete. I wouldn't say that the promotion of science and technology is the first thing on their priority list.

Re: IFI vs FTC? Both offering competitions for next year!
 

I don't think you could be farther from the truth.



I really like the idea of a competing competition; Competition will keep both organizations striving to improve and away from shenanigans hopefully.

Re: IFI vs FTC? Both offering competitions for next year!
 

While past results are not necessarily an indication of future events, last year's Bridge Battle game was free to register a team.

To register a FTC team was $300.

I don't care if IFI is making a profit of their competition; if they deliver the most inspiration per dollar* then they have my support.


* We can say that almost all Vex or FTC competitions deliver about the same amount of inspiration. Since FTC costs $300 to register, plus the Vex kits and event registration, while Bridge Battle (or Savage Soccer) teams only have to get Vex kits and event registration (Savage Soccer is free!), then even if they end up both buying the same amount of parts, FTC will cost $300 more per season. Therefore, it has less inspiration per dollar.

Re: IFI vs FTC? Both offering competitions for next year!
 

You might want to be careful what kind of double standards you create for yourself. Blind loyalty of anything only prevents you from being objective. Will you apply this same logic to Lego, Pitsco, GE, Apple, Google, National Instruments and others. I guarantee you Lego makes much more profit off FIRST and teams then any of us can probably guess. If anyone thinks promoting science and technology is the reason Lego does FIRST or wants to replace Vex, that would be a very naive belief. What about DEKA? I saw Dean on TV yesterday, will your next post criticize Dean for all his medical inventions and the water cleaner because he has become very rich selling these products he creates? I wouldn\'t. Good for him and good for us.
I applaud IFI and whoever the partners are supporting this new competition for doing this. My team had to leave FIRST because it was too expensive and too hard, this might be an opportunity for us to get robotics back in our old school. More choices, especially if they are cheaper for schools and still high quality, are good. If there are thousands of schools already using Vex, then this new program is doing a great service to those schools by helping provide places for them to play if FIRST isn\'t going to anymore.

Re: IFI vs FTC? Both offering competitions for next year!
 

All businesses are in business to make a profit. Any business that is in business for any other reason quickly goes out of business.

That said, many times their business parallels good objectives, as IFIs Vex Science and Technology competitions seems to do here.

Just because a business makes a profit off of FIRST teams does not make them evil, nor does giving to FIRST teams make them saints. Understand the motivations of these corporations (follow the money) and you will tend to see that all of them (from AndyMark to IFI to Microsoft) that align their buisinesses with FIRST do so because it is both profitable and in their companies best (PR) interest to do so.

Re: IFI vs FTC? Both offering competitions for next year!
 

Change - people hate change. There is going to be allot of change this year. I would encourage teams that are going to do a vex/FTC type competition next year to sit back and soak in the info coming from IFI and First. There is not enough info yet that has been officially released to make a decision which platform is the best fit for you team situation. The reality is it well maybe into July before a rational decision can be made. Emotional feel good decisions tend to be mistakes. To get started, one can start to look at the hardware and software platform. You can go to the Lego mine storm web site and look at the hardware specs for the NTX. The Vex hardware is well documented. You can look at the primers on the NI lab view style programing.
RobotC is available for both platforms. One could start to evaluate the differences. There is a fundamental difference between the 2 hardware platforms. NTX is more based upon the control of intelligent sensors and actuators. Vex is based upon the classical micro controller low level control of raw sensors and non intelligent actuators. The Vex platform may be a little easier to master at first but the NTX may be much more extensible. What kind of students do you have. Have they mastered vex and what something more to chew on? Then NXT may be better. Has it been a challenge just getting them up to speed on the Vex then stay with vex. Each teams resources and abilily needs to be evaluated and the choice made.

Re: IFI vs FTC? Both offering competitions for next year!
 

Initial thoughts:

1. Cost:

FIRST: $1000 for initial kit. 275$ registeration + 0-300$ regional registeration cost.
IFI: $299 for initial kit - most teams already have many parts so cost is 0$. Registeration fees were 0$ for BB, and are likely to remain lowish. Cost of event varies.

FIRST has not shown what exactly comes in the initial kit and what extras we need to buy, so its hard to judge. I believe IFI has a low registeration cost because they are a profitable company and can afford to support the GDC for IFI. The quality for bridge battle equals to that of FTC, and if they can consistantly pull out a decent game every year, they definitely beat out FTC on this aspect.

quote from IFI:
2. Ease of use:

FIRST: Completely unknown. Has chiefdelphi to answer any questions. I don't believe usfirst forums answers technical questions.
IFI: Has already been tested to work for 2 years with great sucess. Has customer support and a great forum to answer technical questions from hired experts.

Since FIRST parts come from several distributors, it may be difficult to find help for an individual distributor. Also, has anyone considered the fact that FIRST releases parts of the game every week because FIRST does not have final suppiers for certain parts?

3. Reliability:

FIRST: has the bad image of switching fields from 2005-2006, and changing platforms this year. Who knows if they decide to switch platforms again, or possibly ask teams to buy a new kit every year like in FRC.
IFI: will most likely upgrade their product, but will not likely remake their entire platform.

quote from IFI
A little sting at FIRST, which is very accurate in describing how a lot of people in FTC feel right now.

4. Volunteer, Community, Reputation and Sponsor Support

FIRST: being a non-profit organization means FIRST gets a lot of great and dedicated volunteers, as well as many sponsors.
IFI: As a new program I imagine IFI has less sponsorship as well as less dedicated volunteer support.

Quote from IFI:
hmm looks like IFI is catching up to FIRST on this aspect.

5. Values and Principals:

FIRST: I really admire the way FIRST set up gracious professionalism and other principals and concepts. I think it is the most important part of FIRST because it gives you something you can take for the rest of your life, even if you are not doing engineering.
IFI: I admit I have not been to any events, and have no idea the ideals they bring to the table.


I would also like to point out that IFI robotics will be taking this competition to a global level.
Which means teams will get to meet other teams from different parts of the world and connect.

IFI listens directly to the users? That gives it a big checkmark in my book.

As of now I have no idea which program I will be involved in. Both organizations have a lot of question marks. However I would like to point out that IFI certainly presented their program in a much better fashion then FIRST. Many teams will take this in consideration.

I would like to point out this is only my thoughts and not a pitch on why you should select IFI. Whatever competition I pick for next year, I will still probably volunteer and watch FRC events.

Re: IFI vs FTC? Both offering competitions for next year!
 

I will say this, First has a certain "experience" that can and will never be replicated. This is esspecially true when you go to the championship event. You can see First as a whole there and the experience can be awe-inspiring.

Now that I got that out of the way, Vex is one of the coolest things I have ever used or owned. I've found that you can give the average High School student a Vex Kit and a few hours and they will have assembled something cool with little to no guidance. Now once you add guidance to that mix the possibilities shoot through the roof.

I've also notice that IFI, because it manufactures every part of vex system except the software, can give amazing customer service. I've had problems that I could not solve and got replies within hours. It's also nice to know the people who are behind the product, I bet at least 2 out of 3 people can name someone who works for IFI and is involved with Vex/First. I've found that there all good people and are willing to help with almost anything.

For those above reasons I would stay with IFI's vex program. Especially if it's free or nearly free. That gives people like me and a few others who own their own kits the opportunity to go out an build robots that can compete on a very low budget. I foresee alot of teams sticking with Vex just because of free/low cost competitions. Just think a team who needed a budget of $1000 to compete in First only needs half of that to compete in a free program, so what do you do with the other half of the money? Buy more parts, sponsor another team, travel to another competition. It seems like with vex the possibilities are endless.

And my final note on Vex is that it is our product. When we ask IFI gives. We wanted larger onmi wheels, and IFI made them, we wanted new gears and they too were made, and the list goes on and on. I think that Vex will grow faster without FIRST in the coming years but, only time will tell.

Re: IFI vs FTC? Both offering competitions for next year!
 

Remember IFI is running the World Bridge Battle Championship in May out in California. I expect they will try and make it the biggest, best, and funnest event for the teams that go. They want the kids to have a good time.

Re: IFI vs FTC? Both offering competitions for next year!
 

I believe if you check the facts, IFI has used their contacts to open robotics competitions world wide. They took a good idea and saved it from extinction when Radio Shack couldn't market it. Then expanded it, added their own great customer service and got people to sign on to it as a great platform. (Personally, I believe they did that to help kick start FIRST in foreign countries.) Yes, I hope they are making money at it. They deserve to make some profit. But for my money they are not exploiting anyone by doing so.
After watching IFI and their reps for their many years in FIRST, and knowing their commitment to this program, I look forward to their continued success. Their level of committment and customer service is unknown in modern day business. How many corporations do you know that would pick up design of a critical part like the radio modem, and actually be able to deliver the part (including the critical FCC testing and type approval) in quantity in just a few months all to satisfy just one customer?

Re: IFI vs FTC? Both offering competitions for next year!
 

if they have a competiton next year in ontario ill do both because ive got 1K worth of vex sitting in my room and registration is free

but im sticking with FTC and the new platform for now

Re: IFI vs FTC? Both offering competitions for next year!
 

I am reserving judgement on the IFI-vs-FTC decision until I see both in action, in person. However, I will say this;

I like the idea of choice and variety between competitions. My hope for the IFI competition is that it will stick to the goals and ideals of FIRST (the great things, like gracious professionalism and the concept of inspiring youth to follow career paths in science and technology) even without the FIRST platform.

I'm not sure 1923 as a robotics team will be able to do even one of these two great options because of funding, but I would love to be a part of both competitions in whatever way I can.

I sincerely hope that anyone who becomes involved in the IFI/VEX competitions does not leave FIRST; it would truly be a shame to see people go. But IFI has presented themselves well and gained a good following through FIRST and I'm looking forward to seeing their successes in the future.

My $0.02.

Re: IFI vs FTC? Both offering competitions for next year!
 

Are you serious?

I know from talking to people from IFI that their competitions will be CHEAPER. It will be cheaper to run the competition, and it will be cheaper to register for the competition. As accessible as FTC already was for teams, it should be even easier for schools to start teams and competitions, with VEX/IFI.

Re: IFI vs FTC? Both offering competitions for next year!
 

Just curious to why you, or anyone, would make a decision either way before we even know the full details of the new platform and Vex's competing competitions.

The way I see it is we have a known with Vex's hardware, and (for most of us) and unknown with their competition.
We have an unknown with FTC's hardware, but a known with their competition.
I won't weight the two against eachother, or directly compare at the moment, but I think if either side tries to pretend they are what they aren't it won't end pretty. Let's not start a Holy War and contend against eachother. Say what your platform can and can't do, don't try and say "we're better because of X,Y,Z." It won't end well.

Re: IFI vs FTC? Both offering competitions for next year!
 

Well, I'm glad to see a new opportunity. I know in MI, even if we want to, we can't do Tech, so the opportunity to do IFI may be a way to get more area schools involved in science/tech type things!

Re: IFI vs FTC? Both offering competitions for next year!
 

Right now I am reserving my judgment until I see what the new cost and final format of FTC is for next year. I admit, I really enjoy having and designing with my Vex system right now and don't have a budget to invest in a second set up. I think many of us are sitting in the period of let's wait until the grand unveiling and see, is the cost worth it compared to staying with IFI and Vex. I just hope we find out the cost soon so I can make a decision and work on a budget for next year.

Re: IFI vs FTC? Both offering competitions for next year!
 

Yabbut... The average FIRST FTC team buys two starter kits, not one. With the $275 registration fee and $50 battery kit (something you leave out of your Vex comparison), most teams are spending at least $925 (with the FTC discount, thats more like $750) already. If you add in two more transmitters and batteries for another driver, you are over $1,000. If FIRST can provide a kit with enough parts to build a real competition robot (something the basic Vex kit does not) and registration for under $1,000, they are in the ball park. The Washington regional is free, so I don't include a regional fee. I also can't see anyone building a competitive tournament robot for much under $900-1,000 in Vex parts. Vex is great, but it ain't cheap.

I don't what you mean by "reliability." You seem to be speaking to "will the technical platform ever change?," not reliability. I'm not sure what "bad habit" you are referring to. The real FVC/FTC program is just finishing its second year, and the 12x12 field hasn't changed. A little birdie tells me that FTC plans to stick with a 12x12 field (even though I would prefer an expansion to 12x16 or so, and moving the drivers to the ends like FRC).

Are there really more IFI Robotics teams than international FRC and FLL teams?

So, you don't trust anything FIRST says, but you believe everything in the IFI press release. You give full weight to all potentially positive aspects of IFI, but discount everything FIRST has been good at all these years. I think your decision must be right for you, but I doubt you've changed any minds.

Re: IFI vs FTC? Both offering competitions for next year!
 

Can somebody _please_ link me to this $1000 number? I can't find reference to it anywhere official.

Re: IFI vs FTC? Both offering competitions for next year!
 

How do you know the average team buys two starter kits? Did you do a survey of teams? :p
I know several teams that purchased a starter kit in their first year along with battery and built up this year by purchasing additional parts. This means they spent around $350 per year in parts. If they were to do IFI, they may need to spend around $300 on additional parts for next year to continue the program. For FTC they would need to spend $1000 not to mention registeration on the mysterious starter kit.
I'm not sure exactly what is contained in the starter kit for FTC so I cannot say if this is a good deal or not. However, many teams who invested a great deal of money on creating several teams (I'm thinking of woburn who competed with 8 teams in Ontario :cool: ) to teach students with a fun competition now cannot make nearly as many FTC teams.

When I said reliability, I meant reliablility of the platform for the organization. Perhaps I could have worded it better, but my point is valid.
Also, technically either FTC is in its first year or third/fourth year. In the first/second pilot years the field is different from its 2006 pilot year and its current field.

Obviously there are not more IFI robotics teams than FLL teams. I do believe IFI international teams have already exceeded FIRST in FRC and FTC in just its first year. FLL has had many years to grow (not sure the exact number).

Also, why would you say I don't trust anything FIRST says :( ? I may have missed this somewhere, but did FIRST say this kit was permanant or going to be for at least X years? My other points are based on what was said by FIRST (approximate $1000 kit cost). I really like the FIRST organization and what it stands for. I just really don't like how they handled the situation so far.

I think my points are probably agreed upon by many teams doing FTC now. I am not a spokesperson for IFI nor do I pretend to be. I believe I also stated I have not chosen which platform to go with. My points supported IFI mainly because FIRST has left us in the dark in many places. My opinions can definitely change once I see the kit and the costs associated with it. That is why I said this is "my initial thoughts".

It's good to be objective, and I merely wanted to point out my thoughts. :D

Re: IFI vs FTC? Both offering competitions for next year!
 

If our team were just graduating out of FLL, it would be a tough call, but the fact that we have $1K+ of Vex equipment biases us heavily in the Vex direction. That initial kit was hard to come by -- one kid basically gave up a robotics camp opportunity and diverted the funds into Vex equipment for the school.

On an annual budget of about $500, having a low registration fee is a big plus for us, and expanding our team of 7 students (and growing) into 2 teams actually looks practical for next year (much needed, as 70 fingers tend to get in each others' way:o ) Money isn't the only consideration, but it's an important one for a low-budget team, and Vex has the potential to deliver a reasonable experience for considerably less.

Beyond IFI's "official" events, the lower cost also will allow us to increase exposure to robotics in our area: 2 other local Vex teams plan to expand in the same way as ours, and we are looking to form 10 teams from the 3 and hold local events. Being able to hold low-cost events locally, we're more likely to snag neighborhood spectators and pick up even more teams.

We wish FTC well and hope that it gets quality teams to continue doing what it does best. Who knows, if we get more money and the students are itching for a change, we may be back.

Re: IFI vs FTC? Both offering competitions for next year!
 

[quote=Lil' Lavery;722818]The way I see it is we have a known with Vex's hardware, and (for most of us) and unknown with their competition.
We have an unknown with FTC's hardware, but a known with their competition.
I QUOTE]

Two different people I talked to today about all this at the Davis event said to me that it's cool they don't have to worry about Vex being able to run great events. I said I it's one thing to expect a good program but there's really no way to know until we see how the World event in May goes. But they said - you don't know the people at IFI, they got people who have been running these events for years and they know how to do it as good or better than anyone. So at least for them, they feel totally confident that the new Vex program has a great platform and will have a great program with good competitions.
I'm assuming this is true, at least I hope it is, and it does sound like another reason to be excited or hopeful about the new Vex competitions. I kind of thought it might take them a year or two to learn how to run events like I was at today, but it sounds like they already have lots of experience doing it. I thought that was interesting, but maybe I'm reading to much into it.

Re: IFI vs FTC? Both offering competitions for next year!
 

By no means am I saying IFI will do a poor job running events. In fact, I'd tend to lean towards the side that they would do an awesome job. They do have two people with FRC GDC experience within their ranks (Tony Norman and Jason Morella), and a number of others with experience in running competitions, teams, and other events. But the bottom line is that we haven't really seen their event(s) yet, and we don't know how the whole system will be set up next year. Until we see some more information, I'm still chucking that up there as a question mark, although I'm very hopeful and confident that it will turn out well.

Re: IFI vs FTC? Both offering competitions for next year!
 

I haven't done a survey, but I know people who have the data. I got it by asking someone at FIRST "how many kits does the typical FIRST FTC team buy on the discount program." Having watched our club build five very competitive FVC/FTC robots, I will add that you could build a robot from the basic kit, but it is unlikely to be competitive. With the SDK at $100, I don't see how you can field a team for $350. Do they use the base code?

I figure the basic cost to be $300 for a kit, $70-100 for batteries, at least $100 for additional parts and sensors, $100 for the SDK, extra transmitter $130. That's $700-730. If my contact at FIRST is right (they were) FTC teams buy a second starter kit, which means you might not need the extra transmitter, so let's say it's $170 more (since IFI won't give you the FIRST discount) for a total of $900. The $300 competition robot simply isn't possible, if you want the robot to be something other than a BLT.

I know that we spent over $1,000 last year to field two robots, and dropped another $2,000 this year to field three and build one more as a test mule. Owning $3,000 worth of Vex parts makes it pretty certain we will participate in the IFI program along with FTC.

Of course, our club visited the Seattle Regional this week and they all have the FRC bug now. May God have mercy on our souls...

Re: IFI vs FTC? Both offering competitions for next year!
 

Our team, team 104 will most likely not field a FRC team next year. 104 was a joint team of 3 high schools. Hopefully there will be a resurrection of 3 VEX/FTC teams. One from each high school as an after school program with occasional meetings with outside mentors. This whole split is going to cause problems. The way information is being released, there is a good chance that we will not be able to make a choice until the summer. My experience is that when dealing with schools you better have you plan done before June. It's difficult to get anything done in the summer and other programs will have already grabbed the cash. It would be in the the best interest of IFI, First and everyone else to spit out the specific info now. That way teams can make their choice and develop a preliminary plan before June.

I believe both IFI and First have missed an important opportunity to get these programs into the school. It has to do with the robot controller. The robot controllers as they are now are only good for robots. If the developers had expanded the platform a little more the controllers could also be data loggers and would then be usable in the class room. Our school district has equipment that is basically repackaged NI devices and a lab curriculum. If NI had the foresight to unify the new robot controller and their lab equipment the FTC would be a no brainier. One could get a school district to by the brains and sensors for the class room. Then all that would be needed for the robot is some metal, gears and motors. The program would be an easy sell.
It's not to late. With the NTX's communication ports NI could make this work.
We have classes were the teachers are not up to date having students do primitive experiments and graph the data by hand. Using a TI calculator system is not much better. With a choice of bring lab instrumentation in to the class room or running a FTC program, I would pick the class room and admin. will to. If they are the same it's a no brainier for the school admin. Our school district will be buying thousands of dollars of lab equipment this year. To bad our robot program can't be integrated into that budget. Does any body else see the value of integration?

A Viewpoint
 

I am not working for either FIRST or IFI, so all this is strictly me.

First off, my thoughts on the Vex platform can be found via this link:

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=65701

Secondly, and ( I think more importantly to this discussion)

The "FIRST versus IFI" mentality is WRONG.

Let me state this again:

It is WRONG to say that IFI and FIRST are in competition. The title of this thread is a misnomer.

Go to the FIRST web site: look at the mission statement of FIRST. Actually, I'll even reprint it here:

"Our mission is to inspire young people to be science and technology leaders, by engaging them in exciting mentor-based programs that build science, engineering and technology skills, that inspire innovation, and that foster well-rounded life capabilities including self-confidence, communication and leadership."

Now, tell me how IFI's robotics program doesn't satisfy this mission? What is important here is what is being produced: the Vex platform is something a lot of people have invested a lot of money in thus far - it is something schools can afford and teachers can use in the classroom. It is a known quantity. It is an educational tool that people have already invested in, and it WORKS. Why is it bad that someone has begun a new competition which uses this tool? If IFI didn’t do it, someone would have. I would have. I already have a game and field designed and built.

This new FTC platform is an unknown variable. But that does not mean it won't work or is inherently bad. I think that the new FTC platform will be more akin to a "mini FRC" program rather than something completely different. Perhaps the new FTC will be the program FIRST administration wanted it to be, and Vex/IFI's competition can be a discrete entity with its own advantages and disadvantages. One is not better than the other: they best serve students in different situations.

The two should not be considered in competition: why can't schools do both? No one needs to pick just one. Both are tools, like anything else, and people will use the one that works the best. FIRST the organization and IFI the organization are irrelevant details in satisfying the educational and ideological purpose for which these programs can be used.

The "Us Versus Them" and "IFI is for profit" mentality is harmful and unproductive: what is important is the end goal of the program, and IFI's program and the founding vision of FIRST share the same overarching goals. Everyone should be on the same team, even if the uniforms might be different. I’m looking forward to the new IFI game and I’m interested in having more concrete information about the FTC platform. The two are not mutually exclusive.

As a side note: I doubt IFI will be making much money from their competition: they make that selling Vex parts. I suspect the IFI events will be much cheaper than FIRST registration because of this. It makes business sense and the students still benefit. No one loses just because a business is involved. I think their products are reasonably priced and by nature are scalable for schools and other programs to build a robotics program, if not in one shot, than over some time.Scalability is key here, as is accessability, as I've expounded on in my six page monster of a post.

That being said, I think Vex is too good of a product and educational tool to abandon at the snap of the fingers, and I think those of you that are trying to bash IFI for having their own robotics competition really need to take a step back and realize what you are doing here. FIRST should not be able promoting FIRST at the exclusion of all other programs. FIRST is about the inspiration and recognition of science and technology. Whether or not that inspiration comes from FIRST is absolutely irreverent.

I think Edward R. Murrow stated it very eloquently when he said in a 1958 speech:

" This instrument can teach, it can illuminate; yes, and it can even inspire. But it can do so only to the extent that humans are determined to use it to those ends. Otherwise it is merely wires and lights in a box."

He was talking, of course, about television, but his message just as easily can apply to any medium, including this one. What you put into the program is what you get out of it.

The medium is NOT the message.

Re: IFI vs FTC? Both offering competitions for next year!
 

I don't understand why there has to be a IFI vs FTC battle. Each has their own strengths and weaknesses, why do we need to decide which is better?

Here in Indiana we have great Vex program thanks in no small part to the efforts of Dan Ward. The one kit competitions have been a great success.

FTC is a great rout for programs that don't have the budget or other resources for FRC.

Each is a great training ground for new students joining an FRC team

We haven't mentioned other programs like BEST who have their own strengths.

I know FRC teams who use one or a couple of these competing programs for pre-season FRC training with great success.

Can't we just all get along.

Re: IFI vs FTC? Both offering competitions for next year!
 

I\'ve been thinking the same thing reading these threads. The team I worked with in Colorado couldn\'t go on because the fundraising and time was just too much for the teacher, mentors and school. Vex and FTC seem like the programs trying to make robotics doable for all middle and high schools around the country, so good for them. Two programs is better than one anyway, so schools have a choice. That way if one program isn\'t good, gets too expensive or is managed poorly, there will be another option out there for schools. If these programs can get affordable robots into thousands of schools around the country and hold great competitions, then I hope they both do great.
I\'m back east now and may try to help start a team out here. I would never try to start an FRC team, but it sounds like I can start a Vex team and maybe a FTC team depending on the cost. Plus the two programs should provide some good incentive to keep their costs down for the schools, which is really all that matters.