Re: 08 Colorado Controversy
 

A ref scored the ball as a hurdle when it should have been a cross, and then corrected the score?

Re: 08 Colorado Controversy
 

What's interesting is that red winning every time has a probability exactly as high as any other specific result. H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H is just as likely as H-T-T-H-H-T-H-H, it just doesn't look as likely, and no one would particularly get freaked out by the second pattern.

Re: 08 Colorado Controversy
 

I'm sure that she meant Referee in place of Judge. This is a common terminology error that can easily be made if one is in haste.

Re: 08 Colorado Controversy
 

Hahaha, thank you =] yes i meant referee

Re: 08 Colorado Controversy
 

If you wish create a solution to the refereeing problems exhibited at this and other regional events, please do so in the (multiple) existing threads about that subject.
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=65340
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...d.php?p=718870
And others.
Don't create another thread about the same subject.
As for the original discussion about whether or not the red side of the field somehow had an advantage, the qualification results clearly show, as already stated, it did not. The Blue Alliance actually won more qualification matches than the red. The eliminations matches are not going to be a 50/50 chance at each alliance winning, and as such, it's entirely possible that the red alliance could go undefeated.

Re: 08 Colorado Controversy
 

I don't know anything about the score dropping, but a drop from 24 to 18 doesn't make sense if it's a correction for a hurdle vs. running the ball across the finish line. If a hurdle is 24 points then running it across the lane should be 20 points.

A drop from 24 to 18 would be the difference between a hurdle and a robot going under without a ball, or while touching the ball.


A member from one team said that he found a problem after reviewing some video (I don't think any drivers even realized that there might be a problem immediately after their match) and got a few teams together. He said that the attempted to talk to the head ref but that the head ref wouldn't speak to him about the situation.

Re: 08 Colorado Controversy
 

Excuse me mr. ruler of the forums, but I expect this thread to grow as soon as we get the videos up to see the finals matches and determine whether their was a miscount or not. I dont need anyone telling me what I can or cannot post that is related to the topic.

Re: 08 Colorado Controversy
 

Regardless of whether or not there was a miscount, it really doesn't matter by now. I think many people have problems with the scoring system for this year's game, and that is well documented in the the threads Sean linked to (as the scorekeeping as the referee's job). On the other hand, FIRST does not review video of anything at any time in order to rule. It's in the rule book. There have been many of cases when a team believed there was a miscount. If the team approached the referees imeediatley after the match, from my experience, they discussed it, and tried to make the best ruling they could.

Stirring up controversy would do no good for anyone. There is no advantage to the red side of the field. The qualification matches (which, by their nature, are far more even in the power distribution between the red and blue alliances) show an advantage for the blue alliance rather than the red. On the other hand, once in the eliminations, the higher seeded alliance is always the red one. In most cases, especially in shallower regionals, the higher seeded alliance is stronger, and as such, would have a higher chance of winning than the lower seeeded alliance. As such, I am not surprised that there was a regional in which the red alliance won all elimination matches.

Re: 08 Colorado Controversy
 

We were the team with all the video of penalties not being counted, penalties being counted against blue teams when they should have been red (the red flag was waved). Hurdles weren't counted from teams. I would like everyone to understand that we were on the 3rd seed so during the first round we played a lower seed and being on Red we saw obvious scoring issues with our opposing alliance. there were several hurdles that were missed and not counted and us being aware of this, when we went to play the second seed we kept track of everything from 4 angles of the field and mutiple people taking scores to make sure that at the end of the match everything was right. With scoring issues BOTH matches against the second seed. We were told by the Referee's that they had multiple people keeping track as well and their technology was better then ours therefore we were wrong and they were right. It became a 30 minute argument with multiple teams against the head referee. It was not just a one match and we saw the issues from both sides. Throughout the tournament there were problems. The Referee's were unorganized and all the teams that had been to past regionals really felt like these Referee's had not even read the rules.

As far as the video goes. We can post if it is really necessary, however, it is done and over with and there is not much that can be done with the video except maybe watch every match and tally up the score of red and blue.

Re: 08 Colorado Controversy
 

24 points with hurdle. OK, so subtract 8 (no hurdle) and you get 16. Add 2 (for the crossing). You get 18. And it makes sense.

Re: 08 Colorado Controversy
 

I said that it made no sense for a hurdle that should have been passing the ball under the overpass to be adjusted from 24 to 18. I now realize that I may have misread the post I quoted, but I mentioned that 24 to 18 is the difference between a hurdle and the robot crossing without the ball.

A hurdle is 6 points, ball going under the overpass is 2, bot crossing is 2.


Anyway, I don't think that this thread exists to stir up controversy. I, for one, am simply curious as to whether or not there was a scoring error. I don't expect any results to be changed, but, as I understand it, one critical part of engineering is failure analysis and how to prevent future failures. If there was a scoring error, then it would be nice to know how and when it occurred such that FIRST may prevent this failure next year.

Re: 08 Colorado Controversy
 

Incorrect, a hurdle is worth 8 points total without the bot crossing the line. Thus a correction from a hurdle to a herd(roll under), either both with robot crossing or both without, would be a 6 pt. difference.

Re: 08 Colorado Controversy
 

OK before this gets out of hand...........

The idea of a scoring error is discussed at the time it happens. NO VIDEO is reviewed by the refs - period. Their decision is final. While you may not agree, and while you may have hours of video proving your point... all is mute at this juncture. The game is over... it is what it was scored.

No level of complaints and bashing is going to do any good for your team, the alliance or for FIRST.

Time to move on.

This thread will be watched... if it gets out of hand it will be moved to moderated or closed.

Please report this thread if it gets worse....

Re: 08 Colorado Controversy
 

Your sarcasm and hostility are unwarranted and uncalled for. Mr. Lavery was pointing out, as I will as well, that if you want to suggest solutions to ref issues, there are multiple other already expressed avenues to do so.

There are poor calls made in every match, on both sides. Criticizing the volunteer refs for doing their best is extremely counterproductive. Instead, why don't you guys move in a constructive direction (on one of the already mentioned threads).

Your original point was already addressed. The better teams are put on red, and statistics states that it is likely that two regionals a year may have a result like yours.

Perhaps you should review First's guiding principals and the forum rules. Here are the appropriate quotations from the forum rules:

Please remember, you are representing not only yourself, but your team and its sponsors, as well as what FIRST stands for. Please try to practice gracious professionalism at all times.

Re: 08 Colorado Controversy
 

Okay

I have read this thread and its dissolved into fighting and rude behavior not within the rules of the forum. I doubt anymore useful information can come from this, It is the past and maybe we should move on.

Continue all Discussion in PMs please if there is anymore useful information contact me or one of the other moderators and ask that the thread be reopened.