Thoughts from an Outsider
 

I wanted to mention a few thoughts to the FIRST community after getting exposed to the sport for the first time this year as a parent.

First let me say I have been "bitten" by the bug. My oldest son (the one in robotics) is a sophomore and I have four other kids who after traveling with the team and experiencing the regional events at KC and Denver are stoked about the sport. I have a feeling I'm going to be shelling out lots of cash towards robotics for the next 10 years.

As an outsider, I think one of the most difficult things to overcome is grasping the event. I think there are several things First (or the teams) could do to make the events a lot more enjoyable for all the parents, grandparents (aka sponsors!) and friends who show up to watch the events.

1. If there were banners or a-frame signs around the entrances that explained the gameplay and penalties.

2. If there were programs for sale (I would have easily paid $5.00 to $10.00 for such a great item) which gave photos and bios of all the teams, and a little history about their teams. It could also contain sections explaining rules, penalties and gameplay.

3. If the announcers would, from time to time, explain what the penalties and scoring are. There is a lot of "fluff" time between matches where the host or announcer could take a moment to explain some important aspect of the game using instant replay video or even just some canned animation. This would add a lot of useful info to the event.

4. Understanding the ranking system is imperative! This is a sport! Scores matter to the teams AND spectators. Its like going to a football game and having to wander down to the locker room to have to find out what the score is. So much focus is put on match score but nobody talks about the ranking system as it builds through the event. Thats not very fan friendly. I watched the enitre KC regional and was halfway through the Denver event before I realized that points of the LOSING team had an impact on the winner! I think that ranking boards like those found in the pits need to be displayed in a couple of public areas and a clear explanation of the ranking system should accompany the board.

I believe First Robotics is one of the most compelling stories that need to be told to our culture. I cannot tell you how often I talk with people who are afraid that as a country, we are hopelessly behind in science and technology. When I start telling them about First Robtics, they are mildly surprised and very excited to know that such an event exists and that so many participants are involved. This event is more than a sport, it represents a cutting edge transformation within our culture and has the capacity to get people EXCITED about learning science and technology. Given this opportunity, I think we must take seriously the importance of "infecting" the rest of the world with this passion. That is done much more easily if the people we invite to our events understand what they are watching.

Re: Thoughts from an Outsider
 

At the two regionals I attended they had programs listing the teams and explaining the game, as well as the previous year's award winners.

Also, during the first half of Friday (as I noticed, didn't pay attention much as I was working mostly in the pits) the announcers kind of talked about the game and the penalties given to alliances that committed them.

That is FIRST's goal in the FIRST place (aha, ha... pun.)

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Welcome to FIRST!
There are usually programs available that do give information on the teams, the game, and the scoring, for each regional. You can find a few of them in the team registration packet that they receive on Thursday.
And yes...you will be broke for the next few years!! But you will be rich with experience, right? The kids are really great and make it all worthwhile.
~Shelbo's Mom

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First off, Welcome to Chief Delphi!!!!

I love all of your suggestions. In asking some of my college friends to come to the event, I found that I ran into many of the same problems. Now that team members aren't the only people watching matches, and there are actual spectators, I believe that there are a few standard things that could be put into place to make it more spectator friendly.

Wouldn't we all like to understand the ranking system :p

I think that showing the ranks and explaining them to the audience is a WONDERFUL idea. I'd love to see that.

Great Post!

Jacob

Re: Thoughts from an Outsider
 

The programs are free. The problem is that too often, they are at Pit Admin and not out where people are coming in. Team info (no photos) and a one-page overview of the game are included. Event-specific info is another component (e.g. last year's winners of various awards).

Unfortunately, matches are not recorded on-site. animation would have to be used. Also, most announcers do announce the penalties and scoring; they integrate the scoring into their play-by-play and announce the penalties after the match.

Agreed. Sometimes in the past, the rankings were shown on the field screens during breaks. This needs to return. Also, a clear explanation of the ranking is needed; I actually saw that someone had put the criteria (from the manual) down on the table in front of the screens in the pit to help people figure it out at one event. Even the mentors found it helpful on occasion...

Yes, everything is in the manual. Not every spectator reads the manual, though, nor can we expect them to.

Re: Thoughts from an Outsider
 

I saw a few people with those programs but didn't see a bunch available. I think maybe just the team gets the programs?

I don't know. At Denver, I would have thought there would have been a Table inside the main entrance with that stuff but it was more of just wander in and sit down.

I had several conversations with spectators around me who, once they found out I was willing to share information with them, kept peppering me with questions. I ran into this at both events. Perhaps the information is there but people don't know it.

I mean when I go to a football game, (high school, college, pro...doesn't matter) there are people at the gates selling (or giving away) programs. I wandered around the event and never saw anything like that.

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No, they are publicly available. You just need to go to Pit Admin (long walk and safety glasses needed) and grab one. Same for pit maps and match schedules and team lists.

You're right, there should be a table with those at the main entrance.

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Our announcers mentioned the penalties but didn't explain them. Here's what I'm thinking. If you had some FIRST provided animation giving examples of the different penalties, every once and a while, when the penalty occurs, the announcer could show the animation and explain the penalty. It works for John Madden and the NFL, why not FIRST? The more the spectators understand the sport, the more they will enjoy it. I think specifically an animation for penalties would be so helpful.

Our host (great guy) kept saying things like "Man, you really have to watch out for that breaking the plane penalty" but NEVER, not ONCE explained what that penalty was over the course of the two day event. I mean when you have a penalty that occurs almost every match, shouldn't someone explain it?

I think the reality is that the event is becoming a true EVENT with specators and a lot of people who don't know a thing about the sport showing up. It's not ingrained into our culture, like other sports, so there is not the cultural support network that exists for like when new people showing up at other sporting events. This probably means that FIRST needs to start thinking about the event as (perish the thought) entertainment, so thinking about revamping the venue to be more specator friendly is someting they may want to think about for next year and beyond.

Re: Thoughts from an Outsider
 

Welcome!

I hope FIRST reads this. You have some great observations, and if we are to become a spectator sport some day, these things will have to happen.

I know its not going to be cheaper or easier to do it, but could you imagine a more multimedia event, where there is an additional screen in the arena listing the stats: a team info page, a current rankings page, a FYI page, etc...

Of course, the students are already way ahead of us here. When I was at Buckeye, I saw a student from 1126 use her iPhone to bring up the realtime rankings. Then she schooled me on the rules - again displaying on her phone - when I incorrectly described the definition of hurdling (thanks for the education Liz)!

When you go to a baseball game (btw its opening day!), there are often trivia questions, etc. on the big screen. Maybe FIRST could do a couple of canned trivia questions to help educate the spectators between matches.

Ken

Re: Thoughts from an Outsider
 

Tstone, thanks for taking the time to post your important feedback. As mentioned programs are available for the public.
You have offered some wise ideas and I trust that some of the teams can take your suggestions and turn them into something helpful for next year. These ideas often then turn into Chairman's Awards projects. ;)
Please visit www.firstnemo.org and consider joining. I think you will find some like-minded folks in the NEMO forums.

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Thanks. I'll check them out!

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It doesn't hurt to dream! That's how great ideas start.

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Thanks. Appreciate the feedback.

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I have 5 kids. I've been broke for 17 years! I'm like a big kid anyway so I'm not sure who has more fun, them or me.

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Wecome to Chief Delphi - the website where the community of FIRST gathers to discuss ... just about everything that can be discussed.

I also love that an "outsider" was able (and brave) enough to provide feedback relative to your FIRST experience. With that kind of feedback, many items can be improved.

For many years, the local and regional events were pretty much only attended by the teams, friends of team members, plus parents and relatives of team members. Often, communication of the more fundamental stuff was overlooked - due to it amounting to preaching to the choir. So, I can see how it has been kinda overlooked by folks. Hopefully, wonderful input like this will remind us that we need to include that level of information too.

My wife told me that she was confused about a couple things, but overall she said it didn't take very long to generally understand what the game was and how it was played. She is a veteran of 12 years worth of FIRST happenings, so, even though it was the first event she attended this year, she can't really be classified as an "outsider".

Bring back and share any other thoughts or ideas that you can think of,
you are welcome here

Mike Aubry
Lead Engineer
Chief Delphi - Team 47

Re: Thoughts from an Outsider
 

I think there may have been a shortage of programs availible this year. I volunteered at pit admin for the Long Island Regional and we only received about 150. We gave each of the 46 teams 2 programs and the rest were gone by Friday morning. We also received a lot of questions about the QS and RS points used for ranking. We invited those who had questions to view the manual at pit admin.

P.S. Thanks for the great feedback!

Re: Thoughts from an Outsider
 

I'm right there with you on that "T". My two daughters are grown and out of the house - but as a mechanical engineer I caught the FIRST bug with a vengence 7 years ago myself, and have been on the verge of a divorce ever since :ahh:

I'll add my thanks to others' in this thread for your very thoughtful and important initial post. FIRST needs more parents like you. I hope you will consider becoming an integral part of your childrens' team(s). I'm certain you could make a significant contribution.

Welcome to FIRST, and Chief Delphi.

Re: Thoughts from an Outsider
 

Welcome to FIRST! You will soon figure out that there is no "exit strategy" from this program. That's a good thing, because as you observe the impact of the program on youth (and mentors), you will want to be part of making it better. I am a 6th year mentor, with my youngest son on Team 16 (he's a senior and driver). After he graduates, I plan to support this program as long as I can contribute.

I'm in 100% agreement with your points about making the game understandable to outside observers. In the FIRST Press Room, there's a one-page Overdrive game description that's really helpful. I would like to see it augmented with a page of the more common penalties described (breaking the plane, interference with a hurdler, impeding, high-speed ramming, stepping out of the players box, and so on). Such a two-sided, one-page flyer should be very inexpensive to reproduce and should be given to every spectator at the door.

If you think it's difficult to follow the game in person, just try watching a webcast. The webcast feed is usually the same video that is projected on the big screen behind the field. For those who are in the audience at the venue, that's just fine. The game is right in front of you and the screen can provide some interesting close-up shots of robots and drivers. If you're trying to follow the matches from the same perspective as a fan, coach or scout - you're going to be frustrated. You will hear the game announcer describe a play in progress (a hurdle, a defensive skirmish, etc.), but sometimes the video feed is completely disconnected from that action. Oh, well...

Anyhow, welcome to FIRST and to Chief Delphi! We listen and respond to others in our community who are trying to improve FIRST and always welcome comments, criticisms and suggestions consistent with "Gracious Professionalism".

Re: Thoughts from an Outsider
 

Re: Programs

I've attended 3 regionals so far and have found slightly different availability of programs at each regional. The only consistent thing was that each team was given 5 of the Program booklets at each regional. Also, this has been the tightest season as far as those program booklets are concerned. Twice, the Pit Admin table did not have them to distribute...

The suggestion to print and then sell the booklets may be a reasonable solution to the availability issue. I have heard comments about the high cost of printing them.

The programs are produced locally, not by FIRST directly. They usuall arrive courtesy of the Regional Director or that person's deputy.

Re: Thoughts from an Outsider
 

He only thinks he's an outsider. Once you have the disease, it never goes away...

Anyway: It appears that FIRST has grown up while we weren't watching (or maybe watching too closely): it HAS become an event, and it DOES have spectators who don't have copies of The Manual.

• The programs are one place to start: Give them out at the entrance, not at (or in addition to) Pit Admin. Will a team volunteer for this in NY City?
• Animations for the common penalties are a great idea. Is there a team who can do this for this year, maybe for the Championships??
• There should be signs at the spectator entrance(s) explaining that they are welcome and encouraged to visit the Pits - and mentioning the programs. FIRST?

Now that non-FIRST people are showing up, we need to educate them - note that most of them are not present for the opening ceremonies, so they miss all that useful background stuff - maybe FIRST can play those video clips (the game, Dean, Woodie, etc) somewhere on a continuous loop?

More questions than answers, more requests than concrete actions, but just wait until next year...

Don

Re: Thoughts from an Outsider
 

Hey.. That was me!

Though technically I'm not on 1126 (was just showing my support for a truly awesome team) and I haven't been a student for a couple of years now, I was using my iPhone for rankings and to keep the rules handy.

I think that the rankings, in addition to information already suggested, such as explanations of penalties should be displayed on the 'big screen'. Even just with rankings, when other people found out I could get realtime updates they would come over to me to get the info. Being a ref at numerous competitions this year has also made me a 'go to' person for rules and explanations. People in the crowd, watching the field do want the information. I see it as a pretty easy fix to make more information available to the crowd in a public-friendly way on screen.

Re: Thoughts from an Outsider
 

Don,

I don't really understand the regional leadership structure and as a relative newbie I spent a lot of time observing and asking questions. I'm kind of a "jump in with both feet" person so the feedback is really helpful. I wanted to post my comments here because I wasn't sure If my observations had any validity to them. Thanks for your feedback. I am definately going to talk with the coaches about my thoughts and see if we can be part of a solution.

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Of course, I think that teams should get something for free but as for full color programs? Those are pretty expensive and some teams have over 50 members. How about something like three free ones for the teams and then put the rest on sale? What a great souvenier and of course, as to my original point, VERY useful to spectators.

As a spectator, I have to pay for EVERY other high school sporting event I attend. Would anyone really object to a small entry fee for spectators accompanied by a free program? I pay like $6.00 for football games and something similar for wrestling matches. Heck, I was paying $6.00 for parking at the Denver Regional. Frankly I was surprised when they DIDN'T charge me an entry fee. The fee could be used to enhance the spectator experience including programs and funding of the additional displays, signage, etc.

Re: Thoughts from an Outsider
 

T -
I think what you did here in CD is a great approach to a discussion with your coaches/team leaders.
Create a written list with bullets highlighting each of your thoughts.
Also, have your questions included with possible approaches/solutions. Use this thread as a resource.

Also, for you, if you haven't already, spend some time in the different areas of CD, exploring past threads, current threads, spotlights. The spotlights are cool because they will lead you to threads filled with information, suggestions, humor. (Humor is always good. :))

Thank you for joining the community and sharing your thoughts,
Jane

Re: Thoughts from an Outsider
 

I too am an outsider to FIRST... my interest in it came from a business associate that was with a team. Listening to him talk of this fantastic group of kids and hearing him say more than once, "You wouldn't believe what these kids can do in six weeks." So I sat in on a webcast and was totally confused. Thanks to my friend breaking it down for me I finally got a grasp of what was going on and how it works. The good people here on CD have also educated me much.
Thats was over two years ago... I'm totally hooked and still amazed at the work, the ingenuity, and the professionalism these young people display.
This past Saturday I just happen to be around Clemson,SC and made the time to catch a regional in person... at least the semi-finals onto the finals.
It is addictive :D A FIRST book for dummy's would have been very nice.
As I've stated in another post... totally amazed at the welcome I received from the teams who pits I dropped by for a look and a question or three.
With so violence and rudeness at many other sporting events the FRC regional was almost a shock. No one seemed to mind an non-engineer poking around asking questions, everyone took the time make me feel welcome and a part of FIRST. And yes... I was even included in the dancing :yikes:
I'm only sorry I couldn't have been there for the whole event.
See ya'll next year Palmetto !:cool:

Re: Thoughts from an Outsider
 

Welcome to CD. I have to agree with all your comments. I have a son on the team and mentored for 3 years now. When in the stands I found myself discussing the rules to several spectators both in Kansas City and Milwaukee. KC did have programs to hand out, they were on a shelf near the front doors, but if you did not know it you would have missed it.
As for being hooked on such a great event, congratulations. My son is graduating this year and will be off to college but I will still be helping the kids and my wife knows not to schedule anything during the build time. This includes Valentines Day which in our calendar is Feb 21st.

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I think one of issues with attempting to charge an entrance fee at a FIRST even is where to draw the line at who is part of the "team" and who is a spectator. With the high school basketball team it's obvious who gets to be there for free... the players, the coaches, etc. With a FIRST team its more of a collective effort. There are the students as part of the team, but there are also the sponsors, parents, teachers, and adult mentors who contribute greatly to the building of the robot and the building of the team. There isn't really a clear cut line as to who the spectators are as opposed to team members. Besides, one of the goals is to get more of the public interested, I think the lack of an entry free is only helping that.

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Yeah, my youngest son will graduate HS this year, but I'll continue to mentor for sometime to come.

So, you schedule the post-ship "fix-it" window around your belated Valentine's Day?;)

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One thing I think should be explained is that the performance of an individual team is NOT part of the ranking system. It took me the entire rookie competition to figure this out. I assumed it was like other sports where seeding was done by individual performance.

Unless I didn't understand something correctly, I came to the conclusion the best robot at the competiton cannot be determined by which is highest ranked. The highest ranked team might be the best, or they might have just been fortunate enough to frequently be paired with alliance partners who were even better than they were. That would have to be confusing to any spectators used to other sports.

I also finally understood why teams spend so much time and energy on scouting, since that's the only way to be certain about the performance of an individual team. As best as I could tell, the better teams keep all the individual stats on other teams so they can figure out where teams would be seeded IF the seeding were based on individual performance.

One thing I never was quite clear on was why individual stats aren't kept - unless it's to de-emphasize the competition aspect and focus on working as an alliance. But then I had trouble understanding why awards are given to the high finishers, if it's not about competiton - except for the fact that the human brain actually likes competiton/ranking and it would hurt a sport to remove that aspect of it.

Please let me know if I didn't understand this aspect of the regionals. I'm also curious how it came about that individual team performance is not measured, yet recognition goes to the highest finishers. I've been asked for an explaination for this by some of our spectators and I simply don't have one.