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We was robbed!!!
In New Orleans at the bayou regional during the third consecutive match in the quarterfinals between the two alliances chosen by team 499 and Team 34 there was an alleged autonomous Malfunction with the red alliance, causing the refs to order a Redo on match on Match 2, in which The Blue Alliance totally Creamed the Red alliance. We then replayed the match as Match 4 (even though we had already thought we were moving on to the semifinals) and lost... Now, Are we the only ones out there in this known universe who think that The whole replay situation was a load of bull?
If anything the Refs could have stopped Match 2 right there and then when the Malfunction occurred, why wait until the END of MATCH 3?!? BESIDES, even IF the red alliance DID score those autonomous Points they STILL wouldn't have came anywhere near winning the match!! WE WAS ROBBED |
Re: We was robbed!!!
It's quite possible that they didn't stop the match immediately because at the time they thought it was the team's fault, but under further investigation they found that it actually was a field malfunction. In such a scenario it is more than acceptable to replay the match. You were not "robbed" of anything.
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While things like this can be frustrating I don't think you were "robbed" of anything. The fact that your alliance lost the replay and that the replay factored into being a semifinalist shows that your alliances were fairly evenly matched. It's not an easy job being a ref, and sometimes it's hard to know whether something is caused by the field or a robot. I can assure you that the refs discuss everything thoroughly, and anything they did was not to "rob" your alliance of the win.
The best part of FIRST is that losing gets you just as much as winning does. I hope you change your mind and see this as an opportunity to display the gracious professionalism that has come to embody the spirit of FIRST, instead of feeling as though you were "robbed" of something. |
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I completely agree with Sean. If your score was affected by a scoring malfunction, then I'm sure you would feel as if a redo was in order.
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Most likely it was the FTA and the IFI guy who initiated the replay. The head ref doesn't have the ability to determine field failures (unless it's something spectacular like the wall falling down).
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They did the same thing at GLR and waited to the last 5 seconds to decide to re run the match. We didn't see anything to believe there was a field fault, but there were robots that got tangled and what not.
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You are either suggesting that the refs and field officials were incorrect in their diagnosis of a field problem, or that they were intentionally altering the outcome of a match. You provide no evidence of either.
If you accept that there was a field error in one of the matches, then it is strange to think that you would want your team to advance in the elimination rounds while your opponents abilities are reduced due to a field malfunction. While I can appreciate that you might be disappointed after having honestly believed that you won the match, I don't see what alternative you propose... would you really consider it "winning" to beat an alliance whose competitive abilities are reduced due to an error beyond their control? How would you feel if a field error caused your robot to compete at less than its full capabilities? Jason |
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Calm down. Winning is not everything. If your alliance truly was superior, you would have won the second match as well.
-Vivek |
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it ws definatly a field error. if there waa proof of some movement by any of the robots on the red alliance during the hybrid period match 2, then i would say it's a diffrent story.
My team was on this alliance for the quarterfinals. i don't think we got robbbed, even though some may se it that way. It showed 1279's inncossistancy, of their grippers. it was still a fun regional to watch (I had classes so i couldn't go) our alliance would have had some major problems in the second round any ways |
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odd, certainly, but from what I understand from people at the event you weren't robbed....
from that regional the only complaints I heard was an alleged consistent 80" violation throughout the regional.... 1102 was actually lined up on the field to play the semifinals when they found out there would be a replay of their quarterfinal that they thought they were done with....so don't feel too bad you aren't the only people this has ever happened too, gl next event.... |
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Robbed is more like Team 614 suffering it's only defeat in regular play because of a field radio malfunction. And we didn't get a redo.
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i see this allot and it is somewhat common at regionals and i don't get why they can't change the scores of your match if the next match was already scored like what happened to us at ypisi where they missed one of the bots crossing a line during autonomous
hey but this is the reason for off season events one their cheaper two less strict rules, calls and it is more relaxed |
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In your situation, I feel similarly that there wasn't a reason (that I know of) to finish out the match, since a rematch was needed. The malfunction made the game unfair, and the match needed to be replayed. As hard as it is to be in your situation, imagine how it would have felt to be on the alliance that got eliminated because of something beyond their control. I think the third match that became a fourth speaks to the fact that your alliances were pretty much equally matched; it was just luck that you won one match and not the other. |
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I am sorry to hear about this happening to you. I am also sorry to say I do not think you were robbed. I believe the refs did what they think was best.
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Does anyone remember the score of the match that was replayed? We were told it was the 70-0 match, in which case hybrid or not, it would not have made a difference in the outcome. And speaking for the entire team, as can be seen in the Bayou thread, 1279 does not feel robbed. A little disappointed perhaps, but thankful for the new friends and alliances we met at the Bayou regional. We hope to make it back to Bayou next year. |
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I think there was alot of confusion as to which match was replayed. Perhaps there still is. As I remember, the second match was 70-0, and the refs told the teams that the second match was being replayed. However, I think it was actually the third match that was replayed, as the 70-0 match results are posted, not the third match results. |
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Some officials told us that they were replaying the third match because of what happened in the second match. We were on the red alliance. They said they could not replay the second match because they already put the scores up already. hope that clears up any confusion. And in the final 2 matches of the quarter-finals we were told to start hurdling, before we were playing a more defensive strategy, and I like to believe that us hurdling help us a lot. But all three of the opposing alliance teams were a good match up against us. And hopefully we will be able to play against you or with you again next year.
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This may be unrelated but I also know that right after the match the the red autonomous failed two of the students from my alliance made a suggestion to the head ref that they should be rotating the refs across the field because, to us at least, it appeared that the refs on the different home stretches were using very different benchmarks for what interfering with a hurdling robot was. The head ref said that they would keep the arrangement how it was but he would be watching to see if there really were inconsistencies in the calls. After the third match of the series was played the head ref had a talk with both of the field refs charged with the responsibility of calling interference, and then another meeting with all the people sitting at all the monitors on the side of the course. After about 5-10 minutes of deliberation it was determined that match two was to be replayed because of (this might not be the exact quote) "an error on the field." After that the match was played and both refs called the correct rulings for the rest of the tournament. |
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Since I was not watching the opposing alliances, can anyone tell me in which match the hybrid did not run, and the score of the third match? |
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The Game is complex..... The electronics are complex.......then add complex robots that often have a mind of their own and do strange things at strange times, and you have with 41 regionals many opportunities for stuff to go wrong.
It is very easy to blame this or blame that.. it is easy to pop up video to "Prove" you were right and "They were wrong........ it is even harder to accept that this is only a celebration of all the hard work a team puts in or shall we say all the GREAT learning the students will enjoy for ever..... Point is step back.... enjoy the accomplishments... enjoy the moment that many, many others cannot... I know easy to say..... hard to do, but guys, really, we MUST! |
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Every regional has had it's problems. There have been hurdles that were not counted, laps that were not counted, missed penalties, wrong penalties and much more. The biggest question is: Is it more important that we win or that we have the opportunity to play?
FIRST is NOT perfect!!!! Refs are NOT perfect!!! Judges are NOT perfect!!!! Field controls are NOT perfect!!!! but most of all WE ARE NOT PERFECT!!!! The best part of FIRST is when teams, win or lose, congratulate each other and then cheer for each other. This is a large lesson to learn but I guarantee that by the time you graduate from High School, you will have grown and understand what we are talking about. |
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The 2nd quarter final match was when the hybrid was not working. Third match it did work, but I can't remember the score of it.
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Hey, calm down. You guys did great just making it through the seeding and selection matches. I know this sounds cheesey, but FIRST isn't about winning or losing, but making friends, learning, and having fun. Big deal, you lost. You made it past the seeding matched, and that is good enough. I know it can be hard to accept defeat, but sometimes you just have to just swallow your pride and sit in a corner quietly and think about things.
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People are human and they make mistakes. At that, Mr. Sparks already explained what happened in the Lone Star thread.
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As Murphy as my witness, things happen and will continue to happen. Even if team 0000 beat team 9999 in two matches consecutively it doesn't mean they are a 'superior' alliance. It just means they won two matches. ... Back to the butterfly effect. What if they won that match and went on the become regional champions? You can't say "if you were superior then you should have won" because stuff happens. Pavan . |
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If anyone has a good idea for a "perfect control system" along with "flawless scoring", please submit it to FIRST ASAP. EVERYONE and I mean EVERYONE on that field is trying to do the best they can and do the right thing. I suggest YOU volunteer next year as a Ref and get a little taste of what it takes to make the right call EVERY time. I've done this, it's tough! To say we somehow "robbed" you is completely wrong. I'm sorry it happened, but I believe the right call was made and I think if it had happened to your allience, you would have pleaded the same case for a re-match. It's over, done, let's move on and be positive. Next year maybe everything will be perfect. :cool: |
Re: We was robbed!!!
I was the field announcer at Bayou. I can verify that the red alliance there had a strong autonomous, and that none of them moved during the hybrid period of the match in question. I remember finding it odd. After that match, and after being prompted by the red alliance, the FTA (FIRST representative) inspected the field equipment, and either immediately before or during the third match, decided with the referees that there had been a field malfunction.
I was informed after the third match, but before announcing the scores, and I announced it as soon as I was told. This was all done in good faith. The FTA and head referee had no interest in any of the teams involved, and Ed Sparks, the IFI rep, recused himself from the discussion as soon as he could. The situation sucked for everyone, but everyone acted professionally, and did what they thought was right. In my opinion, the best was made of a bad situation. |
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Well, something similar happened to us in Portland. The refs made a mistake and counted the penalties against our alliance on the other one. They were mistaken and we thought we would be in the semis. They revised it and gave the game to the other alliance. Our alliance accepted that! It was just right! Unfortunately, our robot broke down and we lost the third match! Whatever shaking hands and being happy! Celebrate FIRST! Where is your GRACIOUS PROFESSIONALISM? I think we did the right thing, went home, improved our robot and won in Seattle! Just imagine how you would have felt on the other side.
The fact is a malfunction on one side of the field is a big disadvantage and requires a replay! I think that's a rather logical consequence! Chris |
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I just watched our QF Match 1 at GLR and there were 2 balls in a row that we scored that were not counted. Its just something that happens when u got human scoring tallys. |
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Also, we (the losing alliance of that match) are fighting an uphill battle in this argument. The only responses you will receive from that post are about how FIRST isnt about winning and the FIRST refs are all volunteers. This is all 100% true. Something similar happened in our favor in NJ in 2005, and we wound up winning the regional, so we understand. Take a step back, take a deep breath, and congratulate the winning alliances, you can't say they haven't earned it. Sure it was a tough break, but roll with the punches eh? |
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There will always be problems with the field. Even if there was a "foolproof" method of scoring, not only are the refs human, so are we. We're always finding scapegoats to blame things on. The field is one of many that we use to explain why we lost the match.
Also, the thread title implies that something physical, like a laptop or a tool, was taken from you. It also implies that your English teacher should give you some more grammar homework, but I digress. :) |
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Having been a ref for one regional I can say that I was not perfect in calling penalties. I tried my best to be consistent and accurate and when in doubt to give a team the benefit of the doubt, but I am sure there are things I missed and things that might have actually been wrong. In addition from that regional and another I was at, I can say that occasionally things don't work. Sometimes it is actually your robot, sometimes it is field control. |
Re: We was robbed!!!
Please try to avoide identifying specific teams and specific robots if you are going to talk negatively.
Regarding the match replay, and the statement that the autonomous points would not have made a difference, there is no way to know that. Had hybrid worked for the other alliance, there would have been 3 robots in different places on the field when the operator controlled period started. This would have changed robot to robot interaction, scoring, opportunities for penalties, and so on. There is no way to know all of those interactions and the effect on the match, so the only fair answer is a replay. I am confident that every team that has been involved more than a few years could identify a particular match where they felt they were "robbed" - but they could probably also identify just as many where they received a "gift". Stuff happens, and it is dealt with as fairly as possible. |
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(sorry Ed, couldn't resist .. <grin>) |
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Well said by everyone that has pointed out that nothing is flawless -
but most importantly though - I wish everyone would take a moment and remind themselves that the ONLY people really getting "robbed", are the students that are NOT even given the opportunity to experience FIRST. Mike Aubry |
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Our students (all ya'll- not just the green ones) make me truly proud on a regular basis. But this thread reminds me of one particular time.
Last year at the Championship a MOE parent was volunteering to queue on the field where MOE competed. The head ref told him- not realizing he was a team parent- how impressed she was when she ruled against the MOE students who had asked her to review a call because they spoke well and respectfully to her and accepted her decision in a really tough break. I figured that was another big win for FIRST. It's easier for me to see this. I've got years of FIRST experience to balance on, but there's lots of kinds of winning because there are lots of goals to work for. The scoreboard is just one. And off season events are fun just for this reason...friendly rematches! |
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It's back to the pits as a lead inspector for me.... See y'all soon. :) |
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One of my friends, who is a referee for AYSO soccer put it this way.
Ask a group of parents how many of their teams have lost because of a referee, and most of them will raise their hands. Ask the same group how many of their teams have WON because of a referee, and none of them will raise their hands. As a referee, we really can't win hearts and minds. We just have to be fair and judge everyone as equally as possible. I'm sorry that the original poster felt "robbed," but in every attempt to make sure rules are followed according to what's written, sometimes you'll have to take a call against you. Sometimes a call will go in your favor. Just remember two things. One, it's not about the winning, it's about the learning. And two, statistically, if an error is made against you in some round, chances are, it has been made against your opponents in another, and it'll even out in the end. |
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I just want to appoligize for what was written In the mist of the fustration I realized that I was not showing gracious professionalism. I understand that it is no ones fault for the mistake things just happen, and no one is perfect. And I am not going to lie these were really good matches. So once again I am very sorry and thank you for the responses!!! |
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You were understandably upset. Perhaps you have found a new perspective towards this wonderful program through these 3 pages of lecturing haha.
We made a heck of a team in that quarterfinal, i am pretty proud of just making elims. I hope your team continues with its success. |
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Jane |
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-Brandon |
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