Re: GP? I think not.
 

I think we have all seen a few teams where when the robot breaks the mentors are all over the robot with students standing 5 feet back. But measuring a team just by that situation is a little unfair. Many teams I know strive to be student built but when it comes down to the last weekend of build season or 30 minutes before the next match the mentors step in to help get things done. I think that its much better if the students are in there with the mentors, but its tough to do that.

I'm from a student built team and we have managed to be very competative even against the best teams. My first year of FIRST I thought that "mentor built" teams had an unfair advantage, but since then we have had two very solid years and that really changed my opinion. A student built team that is a few years old and puts in the time isn't really at a disadvantage in my opinion.

Re: GP? I think not.
 

Chris already addressed some of 1983's situation, and he didn't even see the difference between our first and second years. We had one year with no mentors, just a coach who is amazing, and our second year we have at least 6 or 7 dedicated, amazing mentors. We won a regional both years. The first year we won with the #1 alliance as the 3rd pick, working with 254 and 1425. 254 is one of those NASA teams. We worked side by side with them, and they had just as much fun as we did. This year we captained the #3 seed alliance to win the MSR. This robot has had significant mentor input, and some of the parts were shipped out to sponsors, like the ladder being cut and holes made as well as carbon fiber claws manufactured. We are having the same amount of fun, in fact probably more fun. Yes, there might be a mentor or two in the pit to help with repairs, but students work on it as well. The mentors have more knowledge. They are necessary. You can learn by watching them do something too, so that you can try it next time.

I can definitely understand your frustration, in fact our team had some frustrations with the new mentor support at the beginning of the build season this year. There is an "ideal mentor-student medium" out there somewhere, but those sorts of things rarely happen in life. The best I can do is just worry about my own team and how we should function and conduct ourselves and how we can help the teams around us.

One last thing, is that when cliches such as these seem to pop up so often, there tends to be a reason behind it. They may be cliches, but I have seen them happen. They had to become cliches somehow, I guess.

Re: GP? I think not.
 

It is always quite easy to infer that the team that just beat you is "mentor dominated".

Truth is, a mentor dominated team is usually a student abandoned team. Many times, the mentors are willing to teach but few students are willing to step up into leadership.

Also. Too often do I hear people that a team is "mentor dominated" without the slightest bit of evidence.

All I have to say is, if you find a great robot: sit down, enjoy the show and learn! Make sure you beat that team next year.

Who are you to decide how learning should take place? If you are into 100% student built robotics competitions, they exist (check out OCCRA).

Francois

Re: GP? I think not.
 

Thank you guys...I feel a group hug coming on....lets keep AJ out of it though???? Ok, Thats really not possible! Even in years we sucked we had a blast, well not right away though.
I could tell you stories of kids who are engineers today who were on our first years team in the 1056 days. Three sat with our team in Honolulu and said they were shocked how good we were doing because we never did that well back then....That hurts! You don't have to have a winning program to let FIRST have an amazing effect on kids.
Am I still on topic??? I've got to get back to work and input my 3rd quarter grades......

BTW, I was sitting next to the DJ when YMCA came on in Honolulu and he was in such shock he picked up his video camera to film it and said something like he's never seen 1500 nerdy kids dancing to their anthem.

Re: GP? I think not.
 

Likewise, you are denouncing successful teams with a cliche argument.

I strongly suggest that you look into the 'mentor vs. student ratio' argument, and realize that (with the exception of extreme cases) this argument usually stems from a person who feels bad because they did not perform well in a competition. I can understand this, ive been there, and it doesnt feel great for the first 20 minutes. But instead of saying "oh, such and such a team beat us because they have more mentors", i thought to myself "now, how can i help improve the team to do better next year?". You are right, this is a competition- but its about a lot more than a well built robot. teams who do well at the competition do so because of experience, teamwork, technical ability, sacrifice, and luck.

but hey, if youd rather mope and look down upon teams for having more resources, then be my guest.


i cant remember who said this but "if you are on a team who is completely student run, you are missing the point of FIRST" (it was either Dean or Woody)

Re: GP? I think not.
 

Here is a cliche you won't hear all that often. FIRST isn't about learning, nor teaching for that matter.

Its not For Inspiration and Recognition of Science Teaching, its For Inspiration and Recognition Science and Technology. I argue that learning, is a byproduct of inspiration, and that inspiration goes a long way. That inspiration is what gets student to learn, whether by watching, doing, researching or going on to institutions of higher education. You wonder why super teams are perennial super teams? Its because students come and go, but inspired mentors are there for the long hall.

I will even go so far as to say that FIRST isn't even just about the students, macroscopically speaking it has very little to do with them. The point is to inspire the culture, not just students, but adults, college mentors, and innocent bystanders. Students are only students for 4 years, if they are inspired, they want to be active and to learn, if they are active and they learn, change happens, if change happens FIRST has succeeded.

You speak of NASA, I've never met a more inspired group of students, than the kids from Cocoa Beach ( Pink 233 ). They are as professional, humble, skilled, knowledgeable, and talented as any group of students out there. You know what I attribute that to? They've seen how its really supposed to be done, they've been inspired by it, they've learned from it, and they followed the amazing leadership they have over there. What happens four years down the road when someone makes the same comment and all those students are gone? I say the same exact thing because mentors, their constants, will still be doing what they do, and students will continue to be inspired by it.

Also, one last thing, teams don't win based on resources alone. Every year teams come from seemingly no where, with absolutely no resources, and they still manage to put together amazing, winning robots. Sitting there, and telling me that I have no shot, because our team doesn't have a single Mechanical Engineer, or because the only tools we have access to are a broken drill press and a beaten up band saw, is disheartening and nearly insulting. I'd like to think we will be able to compete every year, and we will fight as hard as we can to be as competitive as we can, but if you take a defeatist attitude about it, you've already lost.

Re: GP? I think not.
 

You sound jealous of these "all engineer teams"...

Why?

From the student's perspective it can't be all that fun having adults design your robot... even if you do win...

Even if the robot you designed wasn't the greatest you can still have the satisfaction of knowing "you made it."

If adults built it… and you won… than what satisfaction can you possibly have in wining?

Re: GP? I think not.
 

That was Dave Lavery.

Re: GP? I think not.
 

Hmmm...

Well now, regardless of the discussion at hand, I see a lot of comments and phrases aimed solely at the aggravation of the other party involved. I'd like to point out that comments like these:

Do nothing but raise the general feeling of "rabbalry" in the room, either by giving the intended reader a sense or worthlessness, or making him/her feel segregated from the community. This causes more drippingly sarcastic and or blatently rude remarks, which inevitably lead to a shut down thread, and a lot of hard feelings. Even if they weren't entirely consciously meant as such, the intent is definitely there, and fairly apparent.

Comments such as the following, on the other hand actively promote a healthy, learning discussion... and encourage the intended reader to go look at the subject form a different angle. There is nothing rude or sarcastic about either of these.

Now, on with the subject at hand.

I know exactly how frustrating it can be when you pour every waking hour, every last drop of design prowess, and a little more effort that you ever thought possible into YOUR robot... only to have it fail in the face of the most robust, complex, and cosmetically attractive thing you've ever seen on an omni-drive... That is just part of realizing just how much you have to learn. Without that what would you have to aspire to?
I believe that being on a team with limited engineering mentors, and a predominantly student run "government" helped me learn more about the entire real life processes of designing, fabrication, brainstorming, idea development, and social interaction then I would have if I'd been on a predominantly mentor run team. Notice I didn't mention "The exact and precise representation of a job in the field of Engineering". Which, while it can be introduced by a mentor run FIRST team, can only truly be taught by several long years of college and a few thousand dollars in borrowed money.

Having said that, I also wish we as a graduating class of team 306 had either :

A) Had one more year to finish honing our abilities in design and production, and produce a truly beautiful machine,

OR

B) Had more mentor help from the beginning so we would've delved deeper into the CAD and engineering processes.

In essence, We (the graduating class of any given year) Were just getting to the good stuff when we were shoved into the real world. As was said before in this thread (and the seemingly infinite threads before), The answer doesn't lie with an all student run team, or an Engineer-fest team... But somewhere in the middle. Moderation is key.


-Cody

Re: GP? I think not.
 

Im glad im atleast seeing some form of agreement here, I really did not create this thread to just complain and look down on these teams. I created it because I really would like to just make my opinion known and hopefully make a difference. I understand that I dont know the details of how each team is run. I just hope that every mentor and student of every team is doing whatever they can to make sure they are running they're team as fairly as possible. So if you are one of these teams that repeatedly do well year after year, please just take a second look at how your team is run, and if you are absolutely sure it is being run as fairly as possible and you continue to succeed as before, then I sincerely congratulate you.

edit: so essentially im just saying that I feel there is a good amount of people that feel this way and everyone should be aware and try not to be one of the teams that anyone feels this way about.

Re: GP? I think not.
 

Wow, I hope that's not the sentiment of even a small percentage of the FIRST community. While mentors, sponsors and other adults definitely benefit, its all about the students! They are the future. It sounds like we need to redfine what the roles should be as I'm hearing a lot of things that disturb me. You can't justify mentors building the entire or even majority of the robot to me. A good mentor, ours, takes student input and helps THEM to make it happen. Case in point, one of our most talented students has been bugging me, the lead teacher and wannabe engineer, to make a ball knocker since day one. At the tournament he brought it up again and I told him we don't have the weight, the parts or time. Our engineer mentor listened to him and said "Ok, lets see how we make this happen." They identified and removed parts we were not using and experimented with different designs until they came up with a very effecient ball knocker. He guided him, as an experienced mentor does, to design, experiment and implement a system that helped us succeed. He didn't say great idea and then go to the side to build and mount it for him, as he easily could have done, and as a result that student will be a better engineer in the real world. We have too many students going into engineering that are book smart and tool/experience dumb. You don't learn these things by watching others do it! If mentors want to build the bots lets start a new competition they can compete in! Do you think students will learn as much by just watching that??? This is not a glorified pinewood derby - or it shouldn't be anyway. You're crazy if you think you are helping your students somehow by doing it all for them.

Re: GP? I think not.
 

I don't know why anyone would want to skin a cat, but I hear there's more than one way to do it.

One thing I really enjoy about FIRST is all the different ways that different teams work, and succeed! I love talking to students and mentors of the have-not teams, as well as the have-alot teams, and all those in between.

It really doesn't seem to matter how you do it...just keep up the good work....

Re: GP? I think not.
 

I think you must be a great person, who is feeling frustrated. Again, the tough road is rising to the challenge, which is much tougher and easier said than done.
In our 9 years of existence, we are and will still be chasing the Poofs.:P

Prime example: When we were scouting as the 3 seed, a humble Hawaii rookie team came to our pit, looking to do a sales pitch on selecting their team. Instead, we honestly told them about a set of teams that we were looking at, which were other fellow Hawaii members and a California team.
I never felt so bad, after the disappointed look on their faces.
I promised myself to make sure we help them next year, if they will let us, not by making a better robot, as we are not the experts. But instead, share how we have improved over the years and to collaborate more with them.
They were a genuinely nice team diagonal to our pit.

That's what FIRST is all about!

Wait til you see us in Atlanta. I got my top ten list of things to do.
Its visiting the top ten teams that I am just in awe of that I havent seen yet.

Re: GP? I think not.
 

Glenn, you are too good and are a great example of what is good about FIRST and what mentors can be! Knowing the person you are, this will embarrass you but I have to say you are so deserving of the Chairmans Award in Honolulu as witnessed by your attitude toward that rookie team. You are amazing! I've known you for awhile now but I keep hearing stories like this about you. Keep up the good work! Thanks for showing us the way! See you folks in Atlanta...I hope we get to team up again

Re: GP? I think not.
 

Reading this thread, I have become extremely upset.
If you look at our teams record, we have real good engineers, and usually put up a decent robot.
HOWEVER.
In the past 3 years, we have only won 1 award. YES, 1 award.
On our team we have 15 students. These 15 students are expected to put together a robot. A chairmans. A woodie flowers. And do PR.
This is a very hard endeavor which i applaud our kids for doing. Our team was a world champion (Thanks to 111 and 469), and we have very little to show for it afterwards.
The fact that you are comparing teams who have students who are eager to learn, Sponsors who are willing to put out the money, and Engineers/mentors who are willing to put in the time, to not being Gracious and that they should be ashamed of themselves..How dare you?
This really upsets me, For giving kids who want to learn and want to have a fun experience while in high school, you find it wrong? Many teams have a hard time, yes, its true. But its not about the WIN, or about the GLORY, its about the way you run your team.
Our team always cheers for the teams who are likely to win (217,1114) Heck, we even cheer for our cross town rival 47, BUT, we are not spiteful to those teams. We want to see the fun experienced and being able to do that does not involve winning.
Compare it to a sports team. The Detroit lions have sucked for the past 20 years, And even though they don't win, people still like them and cheer for them.
Just take this into consideration.\

*edit* After taking time to read what was going on, ive decided that people can have their opinions. However, i still think it is wrong to complain about success of others.