Re: Intentionally Losing Matches
 

Remember inter-alliance selection-there is no guarantee at all that you would be selected by one of the top 3 or even the top 8, and after a display like that either might be doubtful. There have been other discussions about this, and this is where the inter-alliance selection rule looks really, really useful. Play to win-even if you do end up 8, you'll probably get picked higher anyway if you're worth it.

EDIT: Somehow I failed to notice that this thread was up to 6 pages! In the latest situation proposed, no, I don't think you can rule out losing on purpose. It sucks, but without imposing a more convoluted alliance picking system or losing the basic protection on sandbagging this one offers, there's not much you can do.

Note that, in my opinion, there is nothing ungracious or unprofessional about doing anything you can within the rules to win the competition-UNLESS it affects your alliance partners. If a team wishing to throw a match didn't have (freely given) permission, I hope they would do the right thing, because in that case, losing is not the right thing.

Re: Intentionally Losing Matches
 

Well said, Daniel exactly the point; right on! At the risk of having another post deleted for being out of line on this subject, if we are at the point in this country that a person does not know what honor is, we have bigger problems than arguing a game strategy.

So, let’s really get down to it: if a team is willing to throw a match, even with the blessing of its alliance partners, is the next question what else would a team or alliance be willing to do to gain an advantage and win? If the answer is yes, how about going to another team’s pit and pop an airline or unplug a cable from their controller when they are not looking? How about the intentional act of accumulating penalties to lose? What if your alliance partners said NO; do you throw the match anyway?

You see the question really becomes, if you are willing to throw a match for a gain, I presume, you are willing to do more, much more to dishonor your good name and good name of your team. Few things are worth dishonor, not even a robotics competition.

Good grief and good night

Re: Intentionally Losing Matches
 

The question here is what is honorable. I'm inclined to agree on the slippery slope, but you're off topic.

The topic here is discussing a scenario with "questionable" honor. We've almost settled that it won't happen for quite a while (odds); now, what to do in that scenario, should it happen? What is the GP, honorable, etc., solution?

And for me, it's drive-it-like-you-stole-it, if-we-lose-it-isn't-intentional, rock-their-socks-off playing and hope #1 doesn't pick you. (There are ways to keep them from doing so, but those don't always work. Namely, talk to them pre-selection. Sometimes it works, sometimes it backfires.) Anything less would be at the very least unprofessional. Would I throw a match? Not if I knew, unless winning was my ultimate goal and I couldn't see anything else.

If it tarnishes my honor, all I have to say is, I'm not going there.

Re: Intentionally Losing Matches
 

Eric,

I might agree with you about being off point. Or am I off point because the senario is ugly? However, is not the greater point the limit: where is the limit a person or team is not willing to go? If they have a limit, I am confused why one place we can venture but another we can not? How does this get rationalized that one is okay but another is not?

I am with you on your last point: If it tarnishes my honor, all I have to say is, I'm not going there.

Re: Intentionally Losing Matches
 

Losing a match on purpose strikes me as being like clog-dancing Dance Dance Revolution. I mean, you could do it, but why would you abandon all self-esteem this way?

Re: Intentionally Losing Matches
 

You're switching to honor. However, that is right about what should happen around now.

The limit? When honor is compromised. I'm not going to try sabotage/early bird/bribery, etc., because every single one of those is dishonorable.

Re: Intentionally Losing Matches
 

Eric,

I agree with you, but you are the wrong person to answer this. You have honor; your limit is you don’t go there at all.

What about people that will go there? In that case, I am on point and would love to hear a person rationalize why throwing a match is okay but some other form of dishonor, in this case sabotage in a pit, is not okay. I know that is extreme and uncomfortable but sure draws a very clear line we should consider, no?

Re: Intentionally Losing Matches
 

In that case I guess being the number one alliance and breaking up the top 8 is definitely dishonorable. Then point shaving is dishonorable. And why can teams have extra resources? Is it dishonorable for teams to have extra money to purchase extra materials? Also, extra regionals are dishonorable because they give teams another chance to win? [/sarcasm]

Why is throwing a match dishonorable while all the above points are not.

Clearly everyone has a line. In terms of honor, I view it the same way I view gracious professionalism. Everyone has their own definition.

Re: Intentionally Losing Matches
 

How am I the wrong person? I'm simply providing one viewpoint.

Someone else's honor might require them to do the above acts...I'm just not that person.

Re: Intentionally Losing Matches
 

You're equating all forms of dishonour? What of the petty thief who abhors child molesters? Doing one dishonourable thing doesn't automatically mean that you condone them all.

Re: Intentionally Losing Matches
 

This has probably been said before, but my team (and likely many others), would never consider picking a team that skipped out on a match like that. We keep scouting reports on all the matches and if we saw a team missed a match that would raise a red flag.

Mechanical failure? Incompetence? We have no idea why they didn't show up to their final match. You don't take those kinds of chances when picking an alliance partner.

Re: Intentionally Losing Matches
 

Guys I said this once in this thread already, but it was apparently not heard, and I'll say it again.

The point that most of you are arguing is not worth the frustration of an argument. We have for the most part, all agreed that this situation is a little ridiculous, there are so many variables and what ifs...

If the debate should continue, can we return to the point of, "is there an instance where intentionally throwing a match is ok"

arguing these finite details of a hypothetical situation that is not going to happen is foolish.

Re: Intentionally Losing Matches
 

Eric,
I meant the wrong person to answer the question. You clearly have honor and the idea of you throwing a match is not part of you. Therefore, we need someone who would throw a match and has no problem with that to answer the question about how far a person, team would go and where the line a person, team would not cross is.

Perhaps this in now a circular argument and if a team did toss a match, I presume the faculty advisor knew, parents, school also knew and approved. If a team did this the rest of get to now define the behavior of that team.

Always more to think about when you step back from a situation

Sorry Eric, no dishonor towards you at all.

Have a good one

Re: Intentionally Losing Matches
 

Tristan, I agree with you. So where is the line then? That is what I am asking; how far would a person go to win and why? Where is the line, point of no return?

Re: Intentionally Losing Matches
 

I dont know why any one would do that and then they would deffinantly not get piked in an alliance selection if any one found out about that it not very nice ether you still can get a decint alliance and you can flip or hit 1114 not recommended get pentilized but you still could win the match through "freak accidents":ahh: