Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

FIRST's financials are perfectly normal. Their current ratio is 2.9. A business with this ratio would be considered safe and strong. Their equivalent of return on sales is about 9%. All of these numbers would be perfectly normal for a for-profit company and look to me like an organization run by conservative, professional management. There's nothing funny going on, at least from the numbers.

I have a lot more experience evaluating for-profit than not-for-profit corporations, so I can only say that if this were a for-profit I would say it's healthy and not rapacious. The nearly 30% cost of operations is higher than a charitable foundation would be, but strikes me as very reasonable for an organization that delivers a program rather than just gives money away. The Boy Scouts of America, for comparison, with a vastly higher income spends about 10% of its income on operation.

As to secret deals between Lego and FIRST, I eagerly await some credible documentation.

Yes, I do have a degree in business.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

I really can not put any weight to this statement. This is coming from a brand new account with no info that is not attached to a team. This could all be sour grapes. I am rather shocked how quickly folks will jump on the "bash FIRST" bandwagon without looking at the source.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

Does anyone think that - pragmatically speaking - the registration fee is a blessing in disguise for FIRST?

We all know that FIRST is growing by leaps and bounds each year, and that is WITH a $6000 registration fee. As it is, you sometimes get the feeling that the organization is being stretched too thin.

If the registration fee was less, how many more teams would there be? How would FIRST deal with the need for more infrastructure?

FIRST loves to grow - no doubt about it - and I'd even say that in my opinion they are growing a little too fast.

But the high cost of FIRST is, realistically, the only thing letting the organization mature at a somewhat reasonable rate.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

For what it is worth, I have heard these sentiments expressed by several people affiliated with various FIRST teams.

That doesn't make it true, but it does mean that this guy didn't come up with it off the top of his head :D

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

It doesn't make it true, either. I would like to encourage anyone who thinks FIRST is ripping them off to start their own youth competition robotics program.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

As much as I agree with what you say, I feel that the cost of registration may be a little too pricey. Our school administrators, team parents, other random teachers and of course, the membership could not believe how expensive this program was...until I told them about NASA :)
I wish that registration for a second event would be half the cost of registration for the first event...but I guess I better just get working on a marketing strategy

Anyways, 8 Million Dollars is not an exorbitant amount of money to have in reserve.......

-Just a Rookie's Two Cents

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

I gotta ask this question - business and economics 101.

Some have asserted the $ 6,000 fee is too pricey.

What price level would be acceptable ?

$ 6, or $ 600 or $ 6000 or $ 60,000 ?

Try football and band if you want to spend some real money. It will blow the doors off FRC.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

To Rick, Wilson and others - wasn't Amanda one of the people who ran the FTC program? Seems like she already confirmed the post you are questioning is true. Also, I see another person posting in the thread was the Director of the FTC program, so he could also refute that information, but he hasn't. As a parent looking into starting a Vex or FTC team, I am very troubled to hear that FIRST would be letting Lego dictate what what fee they charge FTC teams. I think FIRST owes the teams an answer and explanation.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

Amanda deleted her post in this thread. I have no idea what she posted. I don't know who used to be director of FTC, and have no insight into why he or she may or may not have denied or confirmed anything. I'm just skeptical, not intransigent. I don't think it's impossible that FIRST was cooperating with their number one corporate partner, I just don't see the evidence here.

There have been rumors that IFI and FIRST were in some sort of fundamental disagreement about strategy (or a really nasty personality conflict) and that's why Vex is no longer part of FTC. Again, I wouldn't have any particular problem accepting it, I just haven't seen any evidence of it. The truth is that FIRST has made their decision on the FTC program and we can love it or leave it. I don't remember anyone at FIRST asking my opinion, which would, by the way, have been to stick with Vex.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

I have to disagree. I have kids in band, choir, soccer, and dance. Robotics costs much more to run. (and as team mom I know what it cost to run our team.) While football and band may have a larger budget....they traditionally have at least three times as many kids participating. The cost per student in Robotics is higher.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

FRC is not a cheap robotics competition. For those who want cheap competitions there are plenty of options available.

But there is a big difference between cheap and good value. I think FRC offers good value. Consider:

The quality KOP
The donated software
The venues
The production values at the venues
The consistancy of product across the continent and around the world

And the community:

Chief Delphi
The Blue Alliance
Mentor Teams
"Behind the design" books

And being able to say that you compete "In the Big Leagues". Honestly... I doubt there is any other competition... anywhere... where I would see one of my students get cheered on by thousands of people for being able to recite Pi to 120 decimal places, let alone for doing some good driving with a solid machine!

So is FRC cheap? NO... and please never let it be so.

Yeah, that is easier for me to say when our team has had the very generous backing of a major corporate sponsor for the past four years... but this is our fifth year in the game... and that first year the entry fee was something like $8,000 CDN after exchange. So I know how hard it is to find $6k, but I also know it can be done.

Jason

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

That's not true everywhere though. I paid much more to be in band than I did to be in robotics. Travel was essentially the same for both, but the equipment and participation fees for band where much worse (even after negating much of it via fundraising).

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

Wilson, I completely understand and don't blame you at all. I will most likely stop volunteering for FIRST after this year, but I currently help run an FLL and FTC tournament and won't step away until I know someone is taking over. I'm not a Woodie Flowers winner, but I am known in the FIRST community around here and most would be very surprised to see me question or challenge FIRST. I never do in front of the kids and I have been biting my tongue a long time.

I can assure you, the Lego FIRST agreement is real and has surprised many. I was just as surprised as you when I learned of it, and I was at the meeting where some others very directly questioned FIRST management about it. They weren't eager to disclose it, but to their credit they did not want to lie to us. The FIRST Director of Programs and another staff member both admitted to us that the deal with Lego was in fact real and the fees for FTC(FVC then) could not be lowered to a more reasonable rate because of that agreement. I was as stunned as it seems you will feel when you learn FIRST will not deny they made such a deal with Lego. I felt FIRST had betrayed the FVC schools and, to be honest, the mission of FIRST.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

Wow -- exactly the opposite of my experience. My son just went on a big trip with the band and it cost us nearly $1,000. He's acted in two plays and that has been more than $500. Even Little League cost more than $250 a season. If you take the cost of a single-regional FRC team (which is what the majority of FRC teams get to do) at about $10,000 for 25 students, that's $400 per student. The first play my son was in cost us nearly $300 (costumes, "participation fee," "voluntary donation"). His trumpet cost nearly $1,000 (rental costs over four years -- we finally just bought it). FRC isn't cheap, but it is not, in my experience, substantially more expensive than other youth programs. Corporate sponsorship can also be much more generous for robotics than other events. GM isn't likely to give a high school theater program $25,000 a year, for example.

The real bargain is FTC -- we fielded three teams of a total of 20 students for about $3,500, not counting travel to Championships. A cost of $175 per student made it cheaper than Little League.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

Answer to your question - Amanda said I was not alone and was not the only one to be upset about what I posted.

I know many don't want to believe Lego and Pitsco are driving the FIRST program decisions, and I know many will want to remain in denial about it. Because I still respect some of the management at FIRST, while I do not agree with how they are running FIRST right now, I do not think they would lie to you or any team directly. I will guarantee you this - FIRST will not deny what is being discussed. They have acknowledged it to many people when pressed, even though we could tell they were not proud of what they were telling us. I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, I thought many more were aware of it than I guess are.

Also, Lego is not FIRSTs number one partner. They are the FLL partner, but the growth of FRC and FIRST in general are due much more to the support of NASA, GM, and others. However, you may now be right, it does look like Lego and Pitsco are gaining access to 3 of the 4 FIRST programs now - programs to us, profit making markets to Lego.

You can tell how I feel about the Lego/Pitsco/FIRST arrangements, so it's clear I should not be helping run FLL or FTC events anymore. I'll still work with local teams, but I will not help raise funds to build Lego and FIRSTs revenue stream. I did and do this to help schools and students. I've been a strong supporter and defender of FIRST for a number of years, so stepping away is not easy for me.