FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

My team old team had to fold due to the cost a few years ago, but I\'ve been looking to start a new FTC or FRC team again. Reading various threads the past couple weeks, I\'ve seen ideas to increase team fees to pay for ref training, I\'ve seen that FIRST is charging $45 per person to attend the championship party and the FRC reg fee is still $6,000 per team while FLL and FTC teams have to pay $1,000 - all seem really high, but it\'s a non profit so I never really questioned it.
Then I saw a thread where people said FIRST has over $8 million cash in the bank now. How can this be true? If they have $8 Million in cash, why was the fee increased on our team a few years ago? If they have $8 million, why do people have to pay extra beyond their Championship reg fee to go to the team party and why can\'t first pay for things like ref trianing? I know I haven\'t been involved the last couple years, but I was shocked to see that FIRST has accumulated $8 million dollars. If so, why haven\'t they lowered the cost of the fees for teams.

It doesn\'t make sense for a non profit to be making millions by charging schools such high fees. I\'m sure this would bother others, so I\'m not sure what I\'m missing or not realizing is a logical explanation. Anyone know?

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

I'm not a FIRST expert, but I'm assuming it has to do with A) the very high price of renting out the venues for competitions (34 full-size stadiums for a complete weekend, plus the Georgia Dome and the accompanying convention center) really adds up. B) They have to have money for the FIRST scholarship that they give out to many students. C) FIRST has to pay the on-the-payroll workers who are part of the organization (ever seen FIRST HQ?).
Plus, they could always use a little extra bank to fund new regionals, expand other ones, and the various other things FIRST has to do. Sure, much of the cost of running FIRST is written off on the backs of large corporations, but FIRST must still pay a little of its own.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

FIRST finances are open and well understood. They lose a boatload of money each year and without additional top level sponsorship they would not exist.

The fees, for example the $ 6,000 FRC fee doesn't even come close to paying the expense for a FRC team to compete, after you add in parts costs, facility costs, etc.

THe amount of money that they may have on deposit at any given moment is of no great significance. What is important is how the cash flow is going, income and expense, and what the balance sheet is doing. If they had 8M in deposits on some particular day, they probably had 8M in bills to pay on that date or very soon.

The 8M number you probably heard was the amount of scholarships given each year. It is NOT 8M on deposit. It is 8M of someone elses money, usually university or foundation money in dribs and drabs that add up to 8M. But it is definitely NOT FIRST's money.

But they are definitely not making money. A year or two ago I think the numbers for a typical team to get the KOP and complete a regional had expenses that were over twice the fee you paid for FRC registration. It was sponsor material and cash donations that made up the difference.

If you are interested about starting a new team, there are lot of resources that are available to help new teams learn how to become self-sustaining. Contacts on this website can help lead to advice and strategies, there are mentors and members that have knowledge that can be tapped, and other resources too.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

From what I understand, looking at FIRST's financials, which are publicly available, they have $8M in "cash assets." Not in scholarship funds, in cash reserve. It's definitely FIRST's money. Their increase in cash and cash equivalents from 2006 to 2007 was $1.4M, so it obviously doesn't have to do with bills to be paid. That seems a bit excessive for a not-for-profit corporation to me.

http://usfirst.org/who/content.aspx?id=78 "FIRST's Audited Financials."

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

I'm not going to teach an account course here but you can get FIRST financial information here:

http://www.usfirst.org/who/content.aspx?id=78

The financial report is here:
http://www.usfirst.org/uploadedFiles...Financials.pdf

This might be a good project to visit an accounting teacher or mentor and learn more about how this works.

If you look at the balance sheet on the date the report was issued they did have 8M in cash and equivalents. They also had 8M in liabilities.

On the income and expense report they had a net income of 1.1+ M on revenues of 24.5 M. You need to have some headroom on the income or you can't pay the bills. A million bucks doesn't go very far these days, not like 50 years ago.

Now please draw your attention to the line item for FRC expenses - it is $ 17 M which works out to roughly $ 11,333 per FRC team. There was only 12.7 M in program registration fees, for ALL programs.

Where is the difference. Outside sponsors had to punch in 9.8 M to cover the shortfall.

Everyone now please hold up your hands and shout: THANK YOU FOR YOUR SPONSORSHIP !!!


Like I said before, whenever you are ready to start a team there are resources available to help become self sustaining.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

Let us not forget the need to pay the staffers in Manchester. You need to keep some money in the bank to pay salaries, rent, and taxes. On an organization like this, prudent planners like to keep six months of expenses in reserve. That varies of course with annual cash flow expectations.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

Please look at the FIRST financial statement for Fiscal 2007: http://www.usfirst.org/uploadedFiles...Financials.pdf

Yes, FIRST did have $8.1M on hand as of June 30, 2007 (end of the fiscal year). But you need to look deeper.

Income from program fees was $12.8M. Direct costs of running FRC, FTC and FLL total $19.8M. The difference is made up in contributions: $9.8M in 2007. The total budget was over $24M.

So what did you miss? The fact that FIRST is planning for the future. Mary's team folded for lack of funds - they lost contributors. FIRST is banking some money now due to the uncertainty of future contributions. Being a non-profit doesn't mean they have to spend every cent every year. Prudent fiscal management of funds means there will be a carryover from one year to the next. If the surplus gets to $30M or $50M, clearly higher than the entire budget, that is troublesome. Any operation absolutely must have a cushion of at least 10% of budget. Since so much of the FIRST budget is based on contributions, a 30-35% cushion is not excessive.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

not necessarily. It is important to have a cash reserve to give a little room for the unexpected, the unanticipated, and other things they may be in their business plan.

Also a lot of the funding come from other donors with that have deemed it acceptable that they have this cash reserve.

I'd even bet that a lot of well run teams have a small cash reserve for the same reason. covering unexpected bills and sufficient operating funds as you roll over into the next year.

On the same topic - non-profits, high school clubs, etc shouldn't be accumulating stockpiles of cash just for fun. I know of an example of a high school booster organization that had 100K CDs in the bank with no potential use for the money. That was in an organization that had more in CDs than their annual operating budget.

Donors expect their contributions to be used for the program in which they contributed. For something like a high school group that means that academic year. Organizations like FIRST have considerably more leeway and can use the money when it makes the most sense.

But you still need to have a sensible cash reserve and IMHO FIRST has one.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

I hear a lot of people saying things like this. I think it primarily has to do with the fact that most folks simply don't deal with numbers that large on a daily basis, so when they see a number like that (in the millions) it's a bit shocking.

It's like looking at the engine plant that I work at. Yep. We "bring in" close to a billion a year. People might look at our balance sheet at any one time and go "omg, they're rich". What they don't tend to realize is that we send out MORE than that each year to purchase all the stuff it takes to run. The remainder is made up by corporate profit - equatable to the donations FIRST gets from corporate sponsers.

A billion might sound like a "big" number - but when refurbishing an assembly line in your plant to turn out a new product costs upwards of $300 million, and you'll only use that refurbished line for 3-5 years before you have to do it all over again.... well... it starts to bring the numbers more into perspective. One decent "wage" including benefits is $75k a year. So employing just 14 people eats $1 million a year. FOURTEEN PEOPLE. We employ, just at our plant, nearly 1500.

You think utilities on the order of $300 - $400 a month are expensive at your four person house? Try a 1500 person house - with machinery running 24x7.

I understand FIRST isn't a manufacturing organization, but they have their expenses too. Broadcasts, production, planning, travel, manufacturing, legal, etc.

Hopefully this gives folks a little insight into what it actually takes to run a business.

While I'm at it, I'll also point out that this is all money that goes back into the LOCAL economy. So getting even a small production plant is a huge deal. Likewise, losing one to overseas competition is even a bigger deal. But that's another conversation entirely :D

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

Yeah... $8M really ISNT that much money, and if you really want to think about it... Its pretty amazing that FIRST is running these 40-odd FRC events plus all the FLL and FTC events for just shy of $20M. I'm very certain that some of the regionals (especially the larger ones, like GTR and NYC) cost close to $500,000 if not more to put on. The Hershey Centre (home of our GTR) is a full arena complex used by the Mississauga St Michaels Majors, Ontario Hockey League team as home ice (tickets to such hockey games run about $30-50 a head). GTR rents out the main stadium, and the neighboring community pad for the pits. To do this for 4 days (wednesday setup, plus the 3 day competition) I am certain does not come cheaply.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

Take if from someone that has worked for a non-profit organization.
And was one of the last to leave when it went under.

If I was you I would be very happy and grateful FIRST had such a cash reserve. Yes 8M is a large number but compared to the cost of operations and not knowing what the future might bring... its a drop in the bucket.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

It's important to realize that FIRST HQ pays little or none of the costs of operating a regional event beyond those associated with the creation and transportation of the field and the staff on hand. Venue rental, A/V, catering, pipe and drape... everything else is almost always funded by sponsorship at the regional level.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

And note that many (J)FLL and FTC events are run similarly.

Still, for the reasons above, I could see why FIRST would want a fair amount of money in the bank. Running four competitions can't be easy; running four competitions when you're absolutely out of funds until next month when registration opens or a donor's fiscal year rolls over, I imagine, is nigh impossible.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

Madison, that does seem to be the case. I'm pretty certain regionals fund themselves. I have worked closely with some of the Wisconsin Regional Planning Committee members and that seems to be the case there.

If you take into account that not all of the KOP is donated, the Championship is funded by FIRST directly (through sponsorships of course) and the fact that there is money needed to prototype games, keep the headquarters running, pay FIRST employees, send Paul and John to regionals... $8M doesn't seem like that big of a deal to me.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

There have been some innacurate assumptions and statements made here. I'm not an accountant, but I have worked on a Regional Planning Committee and do know some of the real answers. I can assure everyone that:

- FIRST does NOT lose money, if they did they would show a loss on the report and they wouldn't have a cash fund in the bank
- The registration fees DO NOT go to pay for the Regional Events for any of the three programs
- The planning committee have to raise every penny for the events
- The cash line people are talking about is the excess funds, if that figure goes up, then they made money that year, if it goes down, they lost money.
- If as someone said, it went up over a million last year, that means FIRST brought in over a million more than they spent
- any non-profit should maintain a reserve of funds. It should be a certain amount and maintain that level plus increase for inflation. If it goes up beyond that, then people should question any fees being collected.

That's my quick comment. I'm going to go look at those annual reports on the web site and see if they show what people are talking about here.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

If you really think about it, the $6 thousand dollars of reg. is almost nothing for what get in the K.O.P. Have you ever been on the side of BUYING 10seats(is it 10?) of Inventor, to my knowage it is alot more than $6grand, and thats only one thing.

As far as the regional goes, I have heard from multiple sources that FIRST runs their own production crew to do these, that in its self cost WAY more than you can ever image(cough...Pipe and Drape...cough), I can see them keeping little more money in the bank to keep in mind that if some one would want to make a regional they would have the money to purchase everything for it. Soooo....if you think about the amount it takes to run a show like that for three days the cost just goes out the roof. Thats why you don't see every regional being runned like the boston regional(who--ah....big screens).

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

From what I see in the published annual reports, it looks like FIRST used to carry a cash reserve right around $3 million about 4 or 5 years ago. Since then, they've been generating a little over a Million in profit each of the last 4 years, which is how they've gotten up to a cash reserve of over $8 million.

I understand the $3 million reserve, and I would understand trying to have it raise 10% or so a year. But over $1 million a year does seem excessive, especially if the schools are supplying some of that reserve in registration fees.

[quote=Boydean;734911]If you really think about it, the $6 thousand dollars of reg. is almost nothing for what get in the K.O.P. Have you ever been on the side of BUYING 10seats(is it 10?) of Inventor, to my knowage it is alot more than $6grand.

As far as the regional goes, I have heard from multiple sources that FIRST runs their own production crew to do theseQUOTE]

- much of the kit of parts, including all the software is donated and totally free for FIRST, so there's no expense there
- I know our committee had to raise around $70k to cover the A/V production of the regional contracted by FIRST, so that and almost all regional expenses are paid by the regional planning committee and local sponsors, not by FIRST

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

I also have worked with a planning committee here for a bit and I'll say I've been troubled by two main things in FIRST the past couple years, the financials of FIRST as being discussed here and some issues with the FLL - FTC programs, but that's another issue.
My problem with the financials is if you look back to when FIRST had a $3 Million Cash reserve (which I think all agree is prudent), they raised the FRC registration fee $1,000 per team. They had about 1000 teams then, and about 1500 now. The cash reserve went up about a milion a few years ago, and about 1.4 million last year.

It bothers me that the registration fee increase has generated about an extra $1-1.4 million in revenue for FIRST each year and the cash reserve has gone up almost exactly the same amount each year. To me, the fee should go back down to $5,000 if the reserve is well over $5mil. I can see no justification for maintaining the increased fee when it clearly isn't needed anymore.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

The one that's always gotten me was the extra $4000 for extra regionals/championships. That to me seems like using the richer teams to subsidize the poorer ones, which I personally don't really agree with. Especially since many offseason events charge AT MAX $300 per team, an amount I feel is much more reasonable, and I could even stomach as much as $2000 with alot less difficulty than the $4000 they do ask.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

I think it's terrific. What's wrong with sharing the FIRST experience with students who barely get a team together? There are a lot of reasons teams are "poor," ranging from lack of experienced adults to raise money to coming from areas with little sponsor money available. None of these reasons are in the control of students. Having "rich" teams who can afford multiple regionals subsidize teams that barely scrape together the money for the KOP sounds fine to me.

I'm not convinced this is what happens, by the way. Regionals don't make money, as a rule, and cost a fortune to stage. The entry fee doesn't really cover the cost of the event -- I'm on the FIRSTWA committee and I know how much fund-raising went into the Seattle event.

EDITED: Someone mentioned that the fee to participate in FLL and FTC is $1,000. I don't know about FLL, but we paid $275 each to register our FTC teams. Since we already had some Vex parts, our budget for the year was about $3,000 (not including championships), with more than $2k of that going to IFI for parts, not to FIRST. This came to $150 a student, which is much more cost-effective than the typical FRC team. When I was still with 1294 we spent about $8,000 and had 20 students involved, which comes to $400 a student. This is why I think FTC is the growth program for high school students: FRC is just too expensive to have a program in every high school.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

It is not only that it went up by a million last year, it has gone up by over a million for the past few years. Look at the report from 2004 or 2005, the cash figure there is in the 4 million range.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

Okay, let's put it this way:

• Many people assume many things about the FRC KOP. It is unwise to do so. FIRST is dealing with many different vendors who have many different arrangements with FIRST. To assume everything is totally free, or that FIRST gets charged for all of it, is unfair.
• FIRST sends representatives to FLL, FTC, and FRC events around the globe to support the volunteers that run the events, quality control, etc. Even for a relatively small staff, this adds up VERY quickly.
• FIRST no longer runs with a skeleton crew to get things done. As the program grows, the staff grows as well.
• FRC also hires companies to help them cover what they cannot, from event planning and logistics, to limited marketing, to making sure the electronics in your robots and on the fields run correctly.
• FIRST HQ - There are building and maintenance costs associated with everyday happenings.

All in all, it's completely unfair to this program's management and staff to assume that they're simply charging teams for the sake of charging them... FIRST is lucky to have the Finance and Development departments that they do, which have worked hard to keep up with the growth of the program (a feat in itself).

And think of what is demanded from them:

• Staff to stand by the phones during business hours (and extended overtime during some periods of the year).
• Development of new technologies for the KOP each year, and people to manage those partnerships.
• Development and maintenance of scholarships available to students.
• Available resources - everything from media guidelines, press releases, logo formats, website updates, agendas, order forms, game manuals, and supporting materials, to name a few.

Every time something breaks, every time teams ask to have something changed, even every time an honest mistake is made, it's probably liable to cost FIRST money. That's just business. Someone has to eat that cost.

For FRC alone:

• If you want to talk numbers, they have 50 Kickoffs, 41 Regionals, and a Championship Event which holds 343 teams this year.
• Just by a quick look at their portion of the website, they have approximately 50 pages which need to have the correct information posted at all times.
• There are 67 vendors which contribute to the KOP. That's 67 companies (and at least 67 representatives) that FIRST coordinates the shipping and potentially the kitting of their stuff, individually, each year.
• I'm sure shipping costs must be atrocious - moving 10 or 11 fields all over the US, Canada, Brazil, and Israel at least 42 times (one for each regional, and then Championship). And building each of those fields... that's probably pretty costly, too. The more regionals there are, the more fields they need.
• There are 26 trophies of varying size given out at each event. Without even worrying about the banners, medals, or pins at this point, you're talking 1,066 trophies for just the regionals alone and not including spares. Let's say FIRST gets a break on trophies for buying in bulk, and each trophy costs $30. (They are pretty much pure acrylic, after all... but I have a sinking feeling that they're probably much more than that.) You're talking almost $32,000 in trophies alone.

I'm just throwing out numbers here to help show you how large the responsibilities of FIRST really are (and this is only the FRC program, FLL is at least 8-9 times the size of FRC and much more international). And hey, even if they budget every year, I'm sure they have the same problems as every company where budgeted costs don't cover everything.

I'm just trying to play devil's advocate here to show you that there's a lot more to FIRST than what they let show at events... and it probably is even more than I wrote here. Unlike you guys, I have a hard time believing that they run on as little as they do.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

Amanda, it sounds like you have a solid grasp on what's going on here, thank you for clearing up some of the misconceptions. :D

This thread, along with many of the preceding ones, seem to bring up 1 big point: there are a lot of questions and misconceptions about FIRST's financial situation. I don't think that these questions will be cleared up on here, and I would hate to see potentially wrong information getting people worked up over nothing.

This year, FIRST has done an excellent job at increased communication. Using this initiative as indication of intent, I have an idea.

FIRST frequently hosts conference calls on miscellaneous topics. Would people be interested in (something that would definitely need to be done after Championships) doing some sort of a conference call where, in a non-attacking and non-aggressive manner, someone from FIRST's financial department would be able to answer questions? This seems like something that, if requested properly, I would imagine FIRST would consent to, rather than have incorrect information floating around, and people getting angry about it.

I by no means have the ability to say that this will happen, but perhaps if there is substantial interest, a few of us could write into FIRST, requesting such a call to be held. This seems like the productive way for those who are concerned to voice concerns and to get answers.

Is this something that people would be interested in?

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

The 8M is not a cash reserve. They have liabilities that offset that. The net is something over 1M.

Also, they are not generating profit. They are by definition a non-profit. A for-profit pays the profit to shareholders/owners. Since FIRST is a non-profit the cash remainder reserve rolls over to the next year.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

That's the cost for teams to attend the Championship, not initial registration.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

If this were to be pursued, it could have an educational aspect attached to it. How does the non-profit work and what has to be in place for that to work? How does the reserve work? What impact does the budget, the amount in reserve have on soliciting/keeping sponsorships, vendors, venues, political support, global support/recognition? An overview/big picture and some details involved in the business aspect/funding.

That would be cool. The business plan/package is a large part of every team, every event and regional planning committee, and FIRST.

If they were to share some of their thoughts and expertise with the FIRST community, it would be beneficial and clear away myth and misperceptions.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

Seem like a more effective way is to submit questions to FIRST and let them generate a FAQ that they can post on their site and CD can link to. The issues raised here are basically financially eternal.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

I think setting up a call would be a great idea. Have everyone submit questions here on Chief Delphi and then have a couple mentors select the best questions to be asked on the call.

For a second, pretend you are the person running all of FIRST. You goal - your hope - is that someday you will create a self-sustaining program that doesn't rely on goodwill and contributions to continue functioning. Then you see financial statements like you see on the FIRST site, that clearly show without all that good will, your awesome program wouldn't exist.

Then you sit down with your program leaders and start talking about things like... liability. Insurance. Acts-of-God. You compare your balance sheet and your $8 million in the pocket to what you're hearing: One lawsuit (say from a major injury at a competition.. like a lost finger, or lost eyesight, etc etc) could wipe you out in legal fees. One major sponsor pulling out could bankrupt you inside 2 years. One act-of-god could destroy your National Championship (like...say a tornado) and you would either have to refund all that money or pay out-of-pocket to get another location on incredibly short notice....

In my opinion, $8 million isn't much cash. I'd say FIRST is healthy - but if I were running it I'd still be pretty darn nervous that a single event could spell disaster.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

Every time someone argues about how teams shouldn't be allowed to attend multiple regionals, I have to fight the urge not to simply repost this as they obviously don't see the . This pricing structure (multiple event teams subsidize single event teams) makes perfect sense when you look at FIRST's goal of growth. The cost of the kit is one of the biggest obstacles to starting new teams. A higher kit price would stunt growth. Teams attending multiple regionals also increases the number of regionals which helps FIRST grow in that area. Bottom line: would you rather pay $8K (high kit price) for one regional or $10K ($6K +$4k) for 2. It is your choice to make based on your team's situation, and a choice is how it should stay.

With the major electronics changes coming next year to all the different competitions, I am glad FIRST has more stored assets than normal. Hopefully everything works out flawlessly, but we all know this is rarely the case (remember Murphy's Law). FIRST may need to incur considerable costs fixing the problems, so it is nice to know they have the resources.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

Good thought! Even though in my post I did not defend the $8M cash reserves but instead the cost of entering the program, I thought I would do some research of my own.

Take a look at some of these articles (most of them are a quick read):
http://www.compasspoint.org/askgenie/details.php?id=65
http://www.nonprofitissues.com/publi.../point/67.html
http://www.nonprofitsassistancefund....Reserves06.pdf
and especially
http://www.proctorconsulting.org/cashreserves.html


So, it appears this standard procedure for many non-profits - after all, they need to have some cash flow to survive - and it seems as though the basic understanding is that FIRST is operating with as much cash-on-hand as they believe that they need in an emergency.

What's an emergency? Well, this year's tornado scare was a pretty big emergency. Imagine FIRST and FIRST's event management folks trying to reserve a new venue and get all considerations complete in just a few weeks (if it would have come to that). Imagine if something major went wrong with the Kit and a drastic, expensive change needed to be made last minute. Imagine if they needed to cancel a season of FRC for some drastic and terrible reason and refund all teams' money. Imagine if FIRST was sued.

So... I guess I'll be the first one to go out on a limb and say... hey FIRST Finance and Development folks, thanks for thinking ahead (and thinking of us).

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

As a 501(c)3 foundation, FIRST also submits IRS form 990. It's a matter of public record, and contains some more specific financial details.

(By the way, for older FIRST 990s, go here and enter "222990908" in the EIN field.)

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

Look specifically at page 20 of that document.

Amanda needs to add another zero to her estimate of awards costs.
It cost over $900,000 to make the fields, plus nearly another $.5M to ship fields and robots (drayage costs).
Well over $2M in KoP costs not covered by donations.
Lots of $$$ for kickoffs, regionals and Championship.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

That tax return covers the 2006 season, when there were 1133 teams and 33 regionals. Some interesting numbers:

KoP cost to FIRST per team: ~$2000
FRC Regional cost to FIRST per event: ~$150,000
FRC Regional cost to FIRST per team: ~$4400
Shipping/Drayage cost to FIRST per team: ~$425
Playing field cost per team: ~$800
Championship cost per team that went (258 teams): ~$7300

Sounds like your $6000/$4000 registration fee goes a long way

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

Gold star! Doing the research is just as important as doing the math!

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

The FIRST person I talked to at the Davis Regional did tell me that the local committee needs to raise about $200,000 to hold an event and that none of the registration fees from teams at that event go towards that amount. So a 50 team regional sends FIRST about $200,000 and the teams send FIRST $300,000 in registration fees. So the event generates $500,000 but costs much less.
I think FIRST should have extra cash in the bank, that sounds smart. But after 3 million, or 5 million or now 8 million, when do they stop buliding that cash account at the expense of team fees? Now that they have $8 million, they should reduce the fee back to $4,000 or $5,000 like it used to be to help more schools be able to afford to join FIRST or start a FTC teams. If they don't lower it, they're just going to add another $2 million in profit next year which is money coming from schools and sponsors like NASA and GM, that doesn't make sense. If it's not needed, let the schools keep the money for parts and travel.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

If FIRST reduces registration fees in recognition of this $8M y'all think they keep in reserve, it may actually encourage growth.

More teams competing will require additional regional competitions; more fields, more staff, and larger transportation costs.

FIRST will collect less money and have increased expenses. That ought to work out well for everyone. :)

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

That's funny M. :)

I'm not an econ major, but I know many companies find they make MORE money if they lower the price a bit so more people can buy it. Per team costs should always go down the more teams they get, and if more teams can play and pay $5,000, then their revenue wouldn't go down either. Doesn't change the fact that they already have $8 million in reserve and should stop using team fees to build a bigger cash fund. Sorry, just seems what they should be doing if they're a non profit and the mission is to get more schools to do FIRST.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

Wow, what a GREAT idea! FIRST has a couple years' experience as a 501(c)3 (intentional understatement), it would be beneficial to teams for FIRST to explain what it means to be a 501(c)3, how it handles its fundraising, how it handles its growth, and so on. Almost a Chairman's Award presentation by FIRST for the teams...

Of course, I think it would be awesome for FIRST to release a "State of the Union" - to make public what it's doing with respect to future growth (new tournaments/events), future technologies, sustaining, and others. If they didn't have 501(c)3 status, they could be a publicly traded company, and then we could buy stock and get investor updates/information!

-Danny

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

Having some reserve is important for any organization or program. The loss of a major sponsor can wreck havoc in this program. Suppose NASA, because it's own budgetary issues, is not able to support FIRST at the current level next year. This may impact grants for rookie teams, but more importantly, reduce sponsorships for regionals.

This modest ($1M?) reserve gives FIRST some flexibility in dealing with these sorts of situations without having a meltdown.

Having a BLACK number on the bottom line is MUCH better than a RED number. That's about all I know about business ;).

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

Absolutely. !! Jane's idea is sheer genius, certainly the best idea in this thread. I hope it happens.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

Thank you, but that's not genius, that's common sense...
and Beth and Amanda have each been known to make miracles happen - they could work on something, if opportunities presented themselves.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

I don't think we will ever see a day when FIRST reduces registration fees. As a matter of fact, since we are changing control systems again, I predict we will have substantial increases in registration fees. I think that question would be a good one to put to the leadership in Atlanta next week- what will registration for 2009 be? I'm curious to hear the answer.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

I'm taking "Introduction to Non Profit Organizations" this semester. Last week was focused on cash reserves. Also, my final report is a paper and a presentation on FIRSTs organizational structure and cash flow. As such, I've looked into this a little bit, though I will admit that most of my research is still ahead of me...

A healthy NPO (Non Profit Organization) absolutely needs a cash reserve much more than a for-profit does. As Tom and several others have already pointed out, a cash reserve protects against "rainy-day" and "disaster" events. It is also necessary to keep a reserve on hand even for non-emergencies, to keep the gears turning.

Situations vary between NPOs, but a vague rule of thumb is to keep a quarter of your annual throughput on hand, "minimum". After reading half a tree worth of horror stories of NPOs that tanked due to insufficient reserves, I'm glad FIRST has a bit in the bank.

My guess is that the rapid rise in the reserve is the result of a combination of bringing in experienced professionals and a wake up call to the potential danger they were in. I'm not sure if I agree with the rate at which they are correcting, but I do agree that it needed to be increased.

Unfortunately, a minimal "safe" reserve level will almost always look to be selfishly large to people outside of the NPO community. This can sometimes make it harder to find funding, as the backlash in this very thread clearly demonstrates. Many NPOs repurpose these assets by adding restrictions to them or creating endowments, partially in order to mitigate the negative PR they generate.

Lastly, before we lambaste FIRST for this, lets all take a moment and look at the reserves universities keep and the rates they charge for tuition. I won't say the two are apples and apples, but it is a similar concept.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

Your word choice was right, FIRST is a business. They claim rights to anything invented or designed during or in relation to the program and they are not-for -profit not non-profit. Don't get upset that the great FIRST is holding out on us, they are a company, but they are a company with a good reason for existing.
At the same time- I certainly agree that FIRST could cut its prices, or get them to subsidize our purchases from key companies. And it would certainly inspire the ideas of FIRST to disperse across the world but maybe thats something that the next generation of FIRST leaders/volunteers (those graduating high school and college) need to try and get changed.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

Let's have a source for that assertion.

In any case, even if they did do such a thing, they wouldn't have a prayer in litigation.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

Then how do you explain companies like AndyMark?
Says the man who's team can afford 4 regionals and Atlanta. :( :(

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

I second the above. 10 mins of searching haven't revealed any such claim.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

Actually, he is not that far off. FIRST does lay claim to most (not all) things created in association with the competition. Notice that I said "competition," not "robots." The distinction is important. FIRST is taking an ever-stronger stance regarding the protection of what they consider to be their intellectual property associated with the development and implementation of the competitions. And I would not be too hasty about minimizing their chances to have their position stand up in court. Although I would never hope that it actually gets to the point of a full lawsuit to have it proven, there is an awful lot of case history and contract law that would make any litigation anything but a slam dunk (for either side).

-dave



.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

I don't think that David was attempting to convey any such distinction—"anything...during or in relation to the program" sounds like it would apply to much more than just FIRST's role in designing the game and sanctioning the tournament. If David was speaking broadly about FIRST-related inventions and designs, and specifically including those not originating within FIRST itself, then a "slam dunk" is exactly how I would characterize it. FIRST obviously has no general claim to a team's scouting method, or gripper design, or strategic technique, even if it was "designed during or in relation to the program".

Incidentally, in these situations, what sort of intellectual property rights are being asserted by FIRST? What exactly is FIRST protecting, and what infringement are they protecting against? Copyright and trademark are givens, but not especially useful. Patent is not practical. So what's left? Industrial design protection for the blue and red colour scheme?

Tangentially, does anyone remember the old Canada FIRST Robotic Games? There was a bit of an incident with them, a few years ago, because they were using the FIRST name in a manner that definitely caused confusion, and arguably disrepute. But that was a trademark thing first and foremost, and they folded for other reasons as well.... (They were not affiliated with the FIRST Robotics Canada organization.)

If we're talking about FIRST's own internal activities, tournament procedures and game design techniques, then there might be something worth protecting, and some legitimate claim to back it up. But I'm surprised that contract law would enter into it—unless a FIRST contractor was violating some aspect of their agreement in the process.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

Amanda,

Everything you listed is good information, but it really doesn't matter in this discussion - everything FIRST does, regardless of what it is, is included in what the annual operating expenses are. If they do it with 10, 15 or 20 million really doesn't matter. What matters is they cover their expenses and have a solid funding base. It's clear by the figures in their reports that they are fully funded for all the activities and expenses you listed. The question is, why is their profit going up so much each year?
I think FIRST should keep a big cash reserve, it's smart and responsible. But if they have 25% or more of their budget already in a cash fund always available, then why do they need to keep increasing with a couple million dollars of team fees each year? $8 million just seems really high. Some seem to think a $6k registration is fee is ok. I know it keeps us from even thinking of starting a team again and makes us look at programs like botball and Vex. If they've got $8 million in the bank and would still break even with $4,000-5,000 fee then that's what the fee should be.

Also, I don't think over $20 million is "little" and I would expect an awful lot from FIRST or any non profit that has that kind of funding. ESPECIALLY if they are charging schools $6,000 to play in one event.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

Just so people are basing comments and thoughts on accurate data, understand that the FIRST cash reserve has been going up $1M or more each year, it's not $1M total - it's actually up to over $9M.

Here are the accurate figures from the FIRST annual reports:

Year - Operating Expenses - Extra Cash/Grant/recieveables/profit (whatever) in the bank
2003 - $15.5 Million expenses - $4 million extra at end of year
2004 - $14.3 Million expense - $5 million extra at end of year
2005 - $17.7 Million expeness - $5.9 million extra at end of year
2006 - $19.4 Million expenses - $8.1 million extra at end of year
2007 - $23.7 Million expenses - $9.6 million extra at end of year

Those are the figures. I agree FIRST should keep a reserve, the question is, once it's gotten big enough, should the team fees go back to a level that keeps FIRST a sustainable "non-profit" but keeps the program affordable for teams and schools?

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

For what it's worth, FIRST is a "non-profit", no doubt about that, but I do agree with David Noll that they are run like a business much more than most in FIRST are aware. That is mostly good by the way, but also brings some of the negatives of business behavior and ethics with it.

I agree with you Eric that a solid foundation should keep around 25% of their operating expenses in reserve. Problem is, FIRST had a cash reserve between 25-29% in 2002 & 2003. Then the registration fees were increased and the profit/cash in reserve went up to 33%, 35%, 40% and 42% from 2004-2007.

I'm sorry, but here's where I will somewhat "lambaste" FIRST a bit, as you but it. Where I started to have a problem with the financial status of FIRST. If they were a business and I owned stock, I'd be all for it. But it's a non profit, and I got involved because I thought it was a great program for schools and students. Then I see the non-profit generating $1-2 Million in extra revenue (profit) each year from team fees even after they've secured a cash nest egg of over 33% of their operating expenses. At the same time I see teams struggling to participate, many can't because it's too expensive and I haven't really seen the quality of the program increase with the increased revenue.

I'm going to stop, because I get worked up and upset with FIRST every time I delve into the fee structure and the business ethics, or lack of, in instances like the FLL-FTC relationship. I am troubled by the direction of FIRST, but I love the program - or at least the program I thought it was and know it was a a few years ago. Just wish it was managed like a non-profit trying to follow it's great mission, not a business trying to increase it's bottom line at the expense of it's customers. Sorry, just my frustrated view right now.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

I've only known the program exists for 4 years now and I have notice a major shift just in that time period (might just be me growing up). However, before all this continues, do we know that the profit netted is from our registration and fees and not, possibly, corporate donations from POST-season? That would still make the INCOME in that fiscal year but FIRST would have no chance to spend or incorporate it until the next game year. Just curious, I hate slandering a group that has done some great things just because we all have bad info.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

With the information Iv'e read here and in the FIRST annual reports, it's clear that the increased FRC registration fee has generated almost the exact amount of excess revenue that FIRST has collected in extra cash for the past 4 years.

I checked what some other big non-profits keep in reserve, and the Girl Scouts, Boys and Girls Club, and Boy Scouts keep about 10%, 20% and 33% of their operating expenses in reserve. If those three proven and strong non-profits function at those levels, then I do have a problem with FIRST collecting an extra $1-2 million plus from team fees each year to get their extra profit/cash reserve above 33% and over 40% the past two years. This is school money, and in many cases it's my money (tax money when from entities like NASA).
To the earlier poster, can you clarify what you are inferring when you said the FLL/FTC relationship shows bad business ethics? I've seen people say FIRST makes bad decisions sometimes, but bad ethics sounds much worse and might not be the right choice of words.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

I was talking about when Lego and FIRST made an agreement a few years ago requiring that FIRST charge teams more to participate in FVC than in FLL. Was the same time FIRST removed all references to FVC being for middle school kids, all to help Lego keep middle schools from moving on to FVC from FLL. Just doesn't seem right for FIRST to sell out one of their groups of schools and programs to help another. I always thought all three FIRST programs were equally important were truly a bridge to each other. But letting a for-profit company jack up the prices on other FIRST schools and teams showed me that it's was just about teams being a market for Lego to control and maximize their profits. I don't even blame Lego, they are a business, but I don't understand FIRST agreeing to it. So that's what I meant about running the organization like a business can also lead to some shady business ethics like we see in the real world sometimes.

It's not secret information, I learned about it last year at a meeting and a number of committee members and partners know it, but there hasn't been a lot of uproar about it so I guess it's not as a big deal to others as it is to me. But to me, I think its a sad day when FIRST or any non-profit starts looking out for the for-profit interests of corporate partners at the expense of schools and students.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

While FIRST cash reserves are growing, so is FIRST as a whole, and thus, their liabilities. With more teams and new and bigger events, FIRST has a lot more risk each and every year. What if the Atlanta Tornadoes had caused the Championship event to be canceled? Refunding the ~350 FRC teams their $5000 registration fee for the event alone would be $1.75 Million, and then tack on FTC and FLL on top of that. I'm sure finding a new venue at such short notice would be equally as expensive, and not really feasible for most teams unless it was in Atlanta as well. What if FIRST loses a major sponsor such as NASA due to government policy changes? What if the new control system has a major malfunction and all teams need a replacement and/or upgrade of a specific part?
As FIRST grows, so does it's need to have a cash reserve.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

Thank you Amanda, that makes me feel better. I had to believe some in FIRST knew it was "wrong" to sell out one of their programs just to help Lego and Pitsco.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

He's certainly not. I am shocked. I don't know what else to say other than FIRST has sold out one group of teams and schools, and by raising prices on them? Just to help Lego protect a market? Sad day for FIRST - they should be looking out for the best interest of their teams, not their for-profit partners. :(

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

As mad as I've been at FIRST over the switch from Vex, now I get it. There didn't seem to be any reason for FTC to drop Vex, since everyone seems to like it and it's great for schools - but now it all makes sense, it wasn't done to help schools or teams, it was done to help Lego Pitsco.
Unbelievable. Make us pay more to help Lego make money.:( :mad:

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

I'd like to add a quick clarification to this. It is true that Regional Events are expected to raise all their own funds. But in the end, the contracts are signed with FIRST as a legal entity, not the Regional committees (who may or may not be their own 501c3 organization). What that means is at the end of the season, FIRST is ultimately responsible for those expenses. Most regionals do a VERY good job of raising there funds, but there are regionals that cannot generate enough sponsorship to completely cover costs. Those bills are still paid.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

FIRST's financials are perfectly normal. Their current ratio is 2.9. A business with this ratio would be considered safe and strong. Their equivalent of return on sales is about 9%. All of these numbers would be perfectly normal for a for-profit company and look to me like an organization run by conservative, professional management. There's nothing funny going on, at least from the numbers.

I have a lot more experience evaluating for-profit than not-for-profit corporations, so I can only say that if this were a for-profit I would say it's healthy and not rapacious. The nearly 30% cost of operations is higher than a charitable foundation would be, but strikes me as very reasonable for an organization that delivers a program rather than just gives money away. The Boy Scouts of America, for comparison, with a vastly higher income spends about 10% of its income on operation.

As to secret deals between Lego and FIRST, I eagerly await some credible documentation.

Yes, I do have a degree in business.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

I really can not put any weight to this statement. This is coming from a brand new account with no info that is not attached to a team. This could all be sour grapes. I am rather shocked how quickly folks will jump on the "bash FIRST" bandwagon without looking at the source.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

Does anyone think that - pragmatically speaking - the registration fee is a blessing in disguise for FIRST?

We all know that FIRST is growing by leaps and bounds each year, and that is WITH a $6000 registration fee. As it is, you sometimes get the feeling that the organization is being stretched too thin.

If the registration fee was less, how many more teams would there be? How would FIRST deal with the need for more infrastructure?

FIRST loves to grow - no doubt about it - and I'd even say that in my opinion they are growing a little too fast.

But the high cost of FIRST is, realistically, the only thing letting the organization mature at a somewhat reasonable rate.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

For what it is worth, I have heard these sentiments expressed by several people affiliated with various FIRST teams.

That doesn't make it true, but it does mean that this guy didn't come up with it off the top of his head :D

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

It doesn't make it true, either. I would like to encourage anyone who thinks FIRST is ripping them off to start their own youth competition robotics program.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

As much as I agree with what you say, I feel that the cost of registration may be a little too pricey. Our school administrators, team parents, other random teachers and of course, the membership could not believe how expensive this program was...until I told them about NASA :)
I wish that registration for a second event would be half the cost of registration for the first event...but I guess I better just get working on a marketing strategy

Anyways, 8 Million Dollars is not an exorbitant amount of money to have in reserve.......

-Just a Rookie's Two Cents

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

I gotta ask this question - business and economics 101.

Some have asserted the $ 6,000 fee is too pricey.

What price level would be acceptable ?

$ 6, or $ 600 or $ 6000 or $ 60,000 ?

Try football and band if you want to spend some real money. It will blow the doors off FRC.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

To Rick, Wilson and others - wasn't Amanda one of the people who ran the FTC program? Seems like she already confirmed the post you are questioning is true. Also, I see another person posting in the thread was the Director of the FTC program, so he could also refute that information, but he hasn't. As a parent looking into starting a Vex or FTC team, I am very troubled to hear that FIRST would be letting Lego dictate what what fee they charge FTC teams. I think FIRST owes the teams an answer and explanation.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

Amanda deleted her post in this thread. I have no idea what she posted. I don't know who used to be director of FTC, and have no insight into why he or she may or may not have denied or confirmed anything. I'm just skeptical, not intransigent. I don't think it's impossible that FIRST was cooperating with their number one corporate partner, I just don't see the evidence here.

There have been rumors that IFI and FIRST were in some sort of fundamental disagreement about strategy (or a really nasty personality conflict) and that's why Vex is no longer part of FTC. Again, I wouldn't have any particular problem accepting it, I just haven't seen any evidence of it. The truth is that FIRST has made their decision on the FTC program and we can love it or leave it. I don't remember anyone at FIRST asking my opinion, which would, by the way, have been to stick with Vex.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

I have to disagree. I have kids in band, choir, soccer, and dance. Robotics costs much more to run. (and as team mom I know what it cost to run our team.) While football and band may have a larger budget....they traditionally have at least three times as many kids participating. The cost per student in Robotics is higher.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

FRC is not a cheap robotics competition. For those who want cheap competitions there are plenty of options available.

But there is a big difference between cheap and good value. I think FRC offers good value. Consider:

The quality KOP
The donated software
The venues
The production values at the venues
The consistancy of product across the continent and around the world

And the community:

Chief Delphi
The Blue Alliance
Mentor Teams
"Behind the design" books

And being able to say that you compete "In the Big Leagues". Honestly... I doubt there is any other competition... anywhere... where I would see one of my students get cheered on by thousands of people for being able to recite Pi to 120 decimal places, let alone for doing some good driving with a solid machine!

So is FRC cheap? NO... and please never let it be so.

Yeah, that is easier for me to say when our team has had the very generous backing of a major corporate sponsor for the past four years... but this is our fifth year in the game... and that first year the entry fee was something like $8,000 CDN after exchange. So I know how hard it is to find $6k, but I also know it can be done.

Jason

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

That's not true everywhere though. I paid much more to be in band than I did to be in robotics. Travel was essentially the same for both, but the equipment and participation fees for band where much worse (even after negating much of it via fundraising).

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

Wilson, I completely understand and don't blame you at all. I will most likely stop volunteering for FIRST after this year, but I currently help run an FLL and FTC tournament and won't step away until I know someone is taking over. I'm not a Woodie Flowers winner, but I am known in the FIRST community around here and most would be very surprised to see me question or challenge FIRST. I never do in front of the kids and I have been biting my tongue a long time.

I can assure you, the Lego FIRST agreement is real and has surprised many. I was just as surprised as you when I learned of it, and I was at the meeting where some others very directly questioned FIRST management about it. They weren't eager to disclose it, but to their credit they did not want to lie to us. The FIRST Director of Programs and another staff member both admitted to us that the deal with Lego was in fact real and the fees for FTC(FVC then) could not be lowered to a more reasonable rate because of that agreement. I was as stunned as it seems you will feel when you learn FIRST will not deny they made such a deal with Lego. I felt FIRST had betrayed the FVC schools and, to be honest, the mission of FIRST.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

Wow -- exactly the opposite of my experience. My son just went on a big trip with the band and it cost us nearly $1,000. He's acted in two plays and that has been more than $500. Even Little League cost more than $250 a season. If you take the cost of a single-regional FRC team (which is what the majority of FRC teams get to do) at about $10,000 for 25 students, that's $400 per student. The first play my son was in cost us nearly $300 (costumes, "participation fee," "voluntary donation"). His trumpet cost nearly $1,000 (rental costs over four years -- we finally just bought it). FRC isn't cheap, but it is not, in my experience, substantially more expensive than other youth programs. Corporate sponsorship can also be much more generous for robotics than other events. GM isn't likely to give a high school theater program $25,000 a year, for example.

The real bargain is FTC -- we fielded three teams of a total of 20 students for about $3,500, not counting travel to Championships. A cost of $175 per student made it cheaper than Little League.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

Answer to your question - Amanda said I was not alone and was not the only one to be upset about what I posted.

I know many don't want to believe Lego and Pitsco are driving the FIRST program decisions, and I know many will want to remain in denial about it. Because I still respect some of the management at FIRST, while I do not agree with how they are running FIRST right now, I do not think they would lie to you or any team directly. I will guarantee you this - FIRST will not deny what is being discussed. They have acknowledged it to many people when pressed, even though we could tell they were not proud of what they were telling us. I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, I thought many more were aware of it than I guess are.

Also, Lego is not FIRSTs number one partner. They are the FLL partner, but the growth of FRC and FIRST in general are due much more to the support of NASA, GM, and others. However, you may now be right, it does look like Lego and Pitsco are gaining access to 3 of the 4 FIRST programs now - programs to us, profit making markets to Lego.

You can tell how I feel about the Lego/Pitsco/FIRST arrangements, so it's clear I should not be helping run FLL or FTC events anymore. I'll still work with local teams, but I will not help raise funds to build Lego and FIRSTs revenue stream. I did and do this to help schools and students. I've been a strong supporter and defender of FIRST for a number of years, so stepping away is not easy for me.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

You can repeat that all you want, but you haven't explained what is so sinister about FIRST working with parts manufacturers, and you have entirely failed to document this ulterior motives of this alleged conspiracy. Do you expect FIRST to go into the manufacturing business themselves? Should they only work with companies that AREN'T trying to sell into the youth robotics market? Are you sure that the break with IFI was FIRST's idea, and not IFI being intransigent in negotiations (I have no idea, and I'm betting you don't either)? I hear emotions, but I don't see facts.

You would have more credibility if you weren't posting from what amounts to an anonymous account, by the way.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

A) Credit to FIRST head office... they do give us a heads up on changes and strive to practice GP in their dealings with the FIRST community. Sometimes they make decisions for reasons that are debatable, or at least not immediately obvious, to teams. Sometimes they need to keep certain information quiet as part of a contract or communications plan. Even when I don't like the decision, however, or want the information NOW, I am confident that they are making the decision for good reasons. I can trust someone even if I don't agree with them all the time. (And thankfully my wife can do the same!)

B) Downside to this agreement (and I have no problem believing it exists... I had wondered why FTC entry fees were so high when the cost of running the program appears so low)... I had three teams building three VEX robots at school, but could only justify one FTC entry fee. A neighbouring school built ten robots, but had to whittle it down to four because they couldn't afford a fifth entry fee. In both cases we could build up the equipment over time as a slow-depreciating capital expense, but the annual entry fees are an on-going operating expense. A lower entry fee (or reduced entry fees for multiple teams from one school or district) would have seen more kids and more teams competing and aided the growth of FTC and FIRST. Perhaps if extra money was generated by FTC this year it will be returned to teams next year in the way of subsidized equipment sales. I've heard of worse plans...

Jason

P.S. I do find the posts describing the existence of a pricing agreement between FIRST and Lego credible, even though I do not have any independent or official confirmation. I do not, however, have enough information to form an opinion on whether or not such an agreement was wise, as I can only see the "costs" of the agreement (FTC fees being, perhaps, higher than needed) and not any benefits that the agreement brought, or was intended to bring, to the FIRST community.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

I\'ve been googling other programs the past couple weeks, and I dont think your assumption is correct Rick. There are other robotics programs that seem to be very popular if you look at the forums, blogs and other info about them. BEST is free, Botball is around $2k, FLL and Vex are both $500-$1000. FRC is substantially more expensive than those programs. My question has been answered in this thread, and it seems clear FRC does not need to cost as much as it does. It does seem that FTC or Vex are still quality programs which require much less money and time.

The Lego FTC price thing is a different issue which sounds very bad to me. In these times of corporate greed, unethical deals and dirty politics on all sides, I would hope that organizations like FIRST would be above such behavior. If FIRST has let Lego or Pitsco force FTC to be more expensive than FLL, then shame on FIRST for not sticking up for the best interest of the students. Unless FIRST states this is 100% untrue, I will not start an FTC team. I like the FIRST mission, but Im not doing this to help Lego, IFI, Autodesk, or other stockholders. The kids need FIRSTs help, not those companies. If FIRST lowers the FRC price, I\'d still like to do that. If not, I think I\'m going to start looking at BEST, VEX or BOTBALL.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

Rick, like you I expect FIRST to work with partners and manufacturers who can deliver quality products, we agree on that. I think what you are missing is the timing. This agreement wasn't made for the upcoming FTC platform and season. It was made years ago when Lego had absolutely nothing to do with the FVC program. It was made to keep middle schools from doing Vex instead of Lego and it was made to drive up the cost of fielding FVC teams to make FLL seem like a better deal. I have no problem with FIRST working with their partners in each program. But I find it hard to believe that you think it's ok for FIRST to sell out one group of teams to benefit a corporate partner, for a FIRST partner to mandate and force schools not using their product to have to pay more to do other options. I'll use your words - I find that type of deal to be sinister, to be an ulterior motive and to be deplorable.
You don't have to believe me or any of the other people FIRST has disclosed this to - ask FIRST management directly like those on our committee did. When put on the spot, they did not lie about it, they admitted it (and one apologized and said they were ashamed and embarrassed to admit it). It sounds like you will also be disappointed to learn Lego and FIRST drove up the cost of one FIRST program to benefit FLL. If that doesn't bother you and you can still support what they are doing, that is fine. I'm just saying I am very conflicted and troubled by what they have done. All of us in FIRST should have heard this directly from FIRST months ago, not through rumors, in committee meetings and on public forums, I agree with you on that also.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

FIRST has helped a number of companies make profits... or at least break even.... over the years. There is nothing wrong with that... those companies have helped provide a great program to some great kids. Profits are not evil or unethical... they are required. Even for companies that deal with kids.

Right now we have information that FIRST has signed a pricing agreement. We can see some potential downsides from our perspective on teams, but don't have any information on the potential upsides. The people I have met from FIRST head office are not incompetent or unethical... quite the contrary. I am confident they would not intentionally sign a deal that was not in the interest of the overall FIRST community from their analysis and perspective.

As for the cost/benefit analysis of FRC, I would stick to my previous comments that it is an expensive robotics program but that I wouldn't want it to be "cheap". I also support Rick's comments that it is not out of line with other opportunities for young people. Some things are less expensive and some are more... but if you have 20 kids on an FRC team, the entry fees break down to about $300/kid... add some parts and a bit of travel and you are looking at around $500/head. About the cost of a PS3 and a couple games. Can you do basketball for less? Sure! Soccer, sure! Hockey, competitive swimming or skiing?? Not a chance.

Jason

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

Well the Championships are in 2d 03h 57m according to my clock. I'm fairly sure FIRST will be fully explaining details of its program to everyone. In previous posts, I have highly critisized FIRST's approach of not discloing full information to teams. However, in terms of its cash budget, from the looks of it, FIRST is rather reasonable (yes I am a business student). If I have some time after championships I will post a full ratio analysis for FIRST's budget sheets.

In terms of FIRST's deal with lego, I don't like it too much but thats capitalism for you. Unless FIRST produces parts for itself and becomes a for-profit business, there's not much they can do to prevent this from happenning.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

I don't know Jason. Pricing agreements within a program are one thing. If FIRST does that with partners for a particular program, fine. But making a pricing agreement to raise the price on one group of schools because it would help a corporate partner control a market? That does not seem right or ethical. If Vex asked FIRST to raise the price of FLL to help Vex, I would expect FIRST to say no. If Lego wanted to raise or lower the cost of FLL, they should have that discussion with FIRST. But Lego should have nothing to do with pricing discussions for FTC or FRC, or at least FIRST shouldn't let them have anything to do with it.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

I agree 100%, at least in the context that the motivation for making the deal is the key point. While I do not know, at present, what the motivation FIRST may have had for signing such a deal was, I am not prepared to assume that this means that they did it simply to "help a corporate partner control a market."

When I find out more about the "why" and hear more than one side of the story, then if I disagree I will be more than willing to say so. Until then, I am quite comfortable in believing that FIRST would not intentionally or inadvertently sign a deal with no long-term upside for the greater FIRST community. The fact that we don't see that upside immediately from our perspective does not mean that it doesn't exist.* The FIRST executive and senior leadership (GDC, etc.) have earned my trust and respect over the past five years... even if I do disagree with their decisions from time to time.

Jason

* Hmmm... next thing you know I'll be saying "FIRST works in mysterious ways" or something like that... :]

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

As has been pointed out in a few posts in this thread, having ~30% of the annual operating budget on hand is "safe and sane". The $1M excess revenue for FIRST last year is <5% of its operating costs. Bloated? I think not.

If you think the teams are being gouged for registration fees, then consider that lowering them by only 10% makes FIRST financially "neutral" (based on the reported 2007 revenues and expenses). A team participating in two regionals and the Championship would save $1500 on registration fees. Is this a really a budget issue? Comparing those "savings" to the total budget for such a team doesn't seem like something to get too worked up about. Is this too much for a team to pay for some insurance that an unfortunate incident (tornado, accident, platform change, etc.) doesn't cripple the entire program?

I'm not a business man, but I think the return on investment in this program is fantastic. Yes, FRC is an expensive program, but the products (inspired students and entertaining, competitive events) are well worth those dollars.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

This is a side note to the conversation. That person was me (see my signature). Both before and after working for FIRST I was a part of the FIRST community. I have decided that, like any other business, what I learned while I was there is privileged information that I am not at liberty to discuss. Things like business agreements that are in place between FIRST and partners or sponsors are that type of information. If FIRST Chooses to
release information on it's own that is their decision. Personally I won't. I do respond to posts where I feel there are facts (that I beleive are in the public domain) that can or should be stated.

Personally I love FIRST and what it does. That doesn't mean it is perfect. No company is. Is there a business partnership between LEGO and FIRST, yes. You wouldn't expect such a successful program like FLL without one. No knowing what FIRST considers public on that agreement, I am not going to comment on what it may or may not contain. Also, having been gone a year, my knowlege may no longer be correct.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

While I'm not sure I fully agree with this statement, it brings up a point about FIRST sponsors and partners that I think must be made. Many of these relationships are business relationships. What I mean is that in general donating money to programs, or parts to the KOP is often done as a business arrangment. Any good business agreement is a win-win for both parties. Parts for the KOP are good for FIRST and may help a company get thier name our to 1500 High Schools (and related engineering mentors). Donating money at the FIRST corporate level may be done in hopes that sponsors names are remembered when kids graduate as engineers looking for jobs. All I'm saying is that both sides need to feel they are getting something out of a business arrangement. In fact, it may be because FIRST is good at developing that win-win feeling that our major sponsors return year after year. Outside of Radio Shack (whose business model changed) can anyone remember a sponsor that pulled major funding at the FIRST corporate level?

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

I will not pretend that I understand everything about the agreements that are being discussed, but I can't help notice a little irony in these discussions and the current attitude about the politics behind all of the decisions that are currently being made.

When you have a non-profit that is forced to work with profit organizations, you will always have to worry about the potential "cash cow" that can develop from a successful program. From the perspective of someone who watched VEX take off in my school, I can see where one company could potentially make a GREAT deal of money off of schools through the FTC program. I think that FIRST has made something of a statement that they do not with for FTC to go in a direction that will benefit only one company. They are open to changing the platform to keep that "cash cow" from developing into leverage for any one company.

However, what is happening on the FTC blog and here on CD is a great deal of complaining about moving to a new platform. What will really make us all happy? A corporate monopoly on FIRST equipment or a changing platform that inconviences us all? How can FIRST stay out of that type of corporate politics? They can't. They can only survive the best way possible and we need to understand that. I may not agree with all of the decisions made or the results, but I do recognize an attempt to keep things balanced and that is what I am seeing play out at this time.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

I agree. I've seen John Gabriel's Greater Internet Theory work way too many times to sit here and trust anyone anyonomous. If Chicago1st really believed what he is writing he would tell us his name. Either that or Brandon should check if he broke the rules like the last time this happened.
You really didn't think this out that well did you. You are comparing FIRST to other competitions whose robots are 1/10 the size of the others. At the size of a FIRST robot everything becomes expensive.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

I agree whole heartedly with this statement. One of the things that disturbs me is there is an undertone in our culture that says companies are bad, profits are bad, etc, etc.

The plain simple human behavorial economic fact is that everyone that participates in FIRST 'profits' in some manner. The profit may not be monetary, it may be easing their social conscience, it may be just pure fun and enjoyment, it may be starting a business doing something you love and putting some food on the table, it can be many different things.

Students, teachers, mentors, and sponsors are NOT going to join a team if they do not feel they are gaining a benefit, economic or non-economic. No one has a right to demand a one way sponsorship where only one party benefits. That is a one way transfer of wealth, and in contract law would become a null and void contract.

A not so hypothetical example - A company has top notch excess shop space that they have to pay rent and utilities on because their facility is just too big. It is a sunken fixed cost. If they give a few thousand square feet to a local team to have a nice dedicated space then after tax considerations they will actually improve their bottom line. It will improve their profits. Is that bad ? Of course not. Both parties win.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

Mnay non-profits keep cash reserves. Here are three: Habitat for Humanity $122 mil in 2007, Red cross $6 mil in 2007, $118 mil in 2006, Red Cross $24 mil in 2005. Why do these non-profits keep cash reserves? To be ready for disasters, new projects, expansion, etc. Would/could they benefit more people by spending this reserve vs keeping it? yes. Would they continue to operate as a corporation if they did? Probably not.

There is no problem keeping cash reserves for the right reason. Seems to me FIRST is doing what they should.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

It seems posters in this thread are taking statements out of context, molding them, and presenting them in a way to justify one of their pre-defined opinions. On both sides of the argument.

If there are facts to be laid out, throw them down. If you cannot take that route, anything you say should be and will be taken as opinion or misinformation.

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

I agree with Tom on this one.

However...I will continue speculating...anyone think any of the discussion above could, in some way, be involved with the "Sneak Peek" to be presented this week?

Re: FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?
 

I agree with Tom too.

I was introduced to FIRST FRC back in 2000 when I did some wiring for Team 108 for a couple defunct mentors. At that time, I think it cost $3000 to participate in FRC. I was not involved in FIRST.

In comparison, gasoline was about 1.00 a gallon.

Fast forward 5 years. Our fee was $5-6K our first year. Gone were the drill motors, VB controllers, and other now-antiquated systems that were the rage in previous seasons. FLL and VEX were new programs. Gasoline was 2.00 per gallon.

Here in 2008, the fee is still $6000. Basically, the FRC controller platform is the same as 2005 for FRC. FLL has jumped leaps and bounds with it's new controller over the RC Brick. Programming the NXT controller is so simple anyone can do it in 30 minutes. Gasoline is approaching $4.00 per gallon.

The 2008 FTC program promises a new robotic platform with easier programming of the controller along with more robust robotic construction material. Heavy machinery skills will not be required. I would expect this to cost more than VEX. It's like comparing Nintendo 64 to Wii. I'm withholding judgment until I can view the new FTC kit at the Championship.

The bottom line is that everything tangible is going up like steel, concrete, petroleum, precious metals and food. Intangibles are increasing too like insurance, taxes, HS and college fees, more insurance, more taxes...

In many areas, incomes have stagnated for the most part. This is the stickler when it comes to these programs. At what point does it price you as a school organization or individual out of the program?

Maybe there were some regrettable decisions made on these programs, but creative thinkers will find a way to get it done if they see the benefit outweighing the cost.