Chief Delphi - **FIRST EMAIL**/Future of FRC

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Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Future of FRC - Sneak Peek

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Flowerday (Post 736909)

Oh, and if they do choose 802.11b/g, you'll probably never be allowed to use any kind of WiFi at a competition again! Goodbye wireless scouting networks, free WiFi for teams, etc...

Already done. See the last page of the Essential Event Information document.

Quote:

Wireless Networks

Teams will not be allowed to set up their own wireless networks at the Championship. While we certainly appreciate the positive potential team-created wireless networks could represent, there is a chance such wireless networks could interfere with planned activities during the event.

(It might not be 802.11b/g/n Wi-Fi. It could be 802.15.4 Zigbee, also at 2.4 GHz.)

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Future of FRC - Sneak Peek

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan Anderson (Post 736945)

Already done. See the last page of the Essential Event Information document.

Right, what I meant was that ban will probably be extended to include ALL FRC events in the future.

And then, if they find out that 2.4GHz is more of a RF wasteland than they originally anticipated, they might have to start banning Bluetooth headsets, laptops, etc. from events as well. They may have to ask venues to shut down any WiFi in the arenas as well.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Future of FRC - Sneak Peek

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Matteson (Post 736914)

No they patented the use of 802.11 as a means of controlling robots. It was in a press release during build season.

I did a quick Google patent search and couldn't find it. I did find that Dean Kamen applied to patent the 2003 game, though.

[edit]Whoops, that is 2003.[/edit]

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Future of FRC - Sneak Peek

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Marra (Post 736979)

I did a quick Google patent search and couldn't find it. I did find that Dean Kamen applied to patent the 2004 game, though.

2003 game*

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Future of FRC - Sneak Peek

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Marra (Post 736979)

I did a quick Google patent search and couldn't find it. I did find that Dean Kamen applied to patent the 2004 game, though.

Looks like Stack Attack to me.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Future of FRC - Sneak Peek

i certainly hope they will not use the 2.4ghz spectrum. why not use 5.8ghz? thats used by 802.11a its not widely used with many communication devices and it would not cause tons of headaches for people with b/g/n wifi networks. remember there is the public that attends these events and some may have wireless devices (bluetooth wifi etc) and it would be hard to enforce having everyone not use wireless. then theres robot demos, parades etc. (can you imagine not being able to demo your robot in an area with wireless internet? of course they could just build some failsafes into the wireless communication (possibly adaptive frequency hopping) now that may make it so our robots could co exist with everyone.

just my opinion

...forest

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Future of FRC - Sneak Peek

There are already a lot of of devices out there that use the 802.11 wireless spectrum but do not necessarily use the same channel set up.

Remember, that's the 2.4 gHz band. For instance:

http://www.spektrumrc.com/

Just because they use the same BAND doesn't mean that have to use the same format or frequencies. The spektrum system can have as many as 40 radios acting at the same time - and each radio uses 2 digital "channels" - even their 6 and 12 channel systems only use 2 digital channels.....

Heck, all we have now is 900 Mhz radio modems.

These radios from spektrumrc are used for jets, prop-planes, helicopters, and sailboats, all on the same fields with wireless networks etc etc etc. It's not an issue. It's all in the encoding. Futaba uses the same frequencies for their setup but they employ frequency hopping. Please understand - 2.4 gHz band does not need to mean noisey and dropped connections - it just happens that home networks are set up that way.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Future of FRC - Sneak Peek

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Matteson (Post 736914)

No they patented the use of 802.11 as a means of controlling robots. It was in a press release during build season.

Here is a link to the press release: http://www.vexrobotics.com/docs/VEX-Mini-and-802.11.pdf

Patents 6674259, 7193384, and 7330776 cover the current control system, so it's not surprising that IFI would patent the new system.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Future of FRC - Sneak Peek

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Marra (Post 736979)

I did a quick Google patent search and couldn't find it. I did find that Dean Kamen applied to patent the 2004 game, though.

I showed this patent application to my wife, who happens to write patents professionally, and she pulled up this file showing the "prosecution history". (It is publicly available from uspto.gov but you have to know how to get into PAIR and what to look for.) To summarize, all the original claims have been modified, new claims have been written and the process continues.

While my wife, as a Canadian, refrains from offering opinions on American patents or laws, she does offer one comment on this file. "This," she says, "is one EXPENSIVE file." At least, that is, assuming that normal legal fees are being charged. Dean must really want this patent.

Jason

Code:

04-11-2008  Pre-Brief Appeal Conference decision  2  

03-07-2008  Pre-Brief Conference request  7  

03-07-2008  Status Letter Mailed to Applicant  2  

03-07-2008  Transmittal to TC  1  

02-28-2008  Notice of Appeal Filed  2  

02-28-2008  Fee Worksheet (PTO-06)  2  

02-28-2008  Status Letter Mailed to Applicant  2  

11-29-2007  Non-Final Rejection  4  

11-29-2007  Index of Claims  1  

11-29-2007  Search information including classification, databases and other search related notes  1  

10-12-2007  Request for Continued Examination (RCE)  3  

10-12-2007  Transmittal to TC  2  

10-12-2007  Amendment Submitted/Entered with Filing of CPA/RCE  1  

10-12-2007  Claims  2  

10-12-2007  Applicant Arguments/Remarks Made in an Amendment  7  

10-12-2007  Fee Worksheet (PTO-06)  2  

10-12-2007  Status Letter Mailed to Applicant  2  

10-12-2007  Fee Worksheet (PTO-06)  1  

08-14-2007  Final Rejection  6  

08-14-2007  Bibliographic Data Sheet  1  

08-14-2007  Index of Claims  1  

08-14-2007  Search information including classification, databases and other search related notes  1  

07-30-2007  Fee Worksheet (PTO-06)  1  

07-09-2007  Amendment - After Non-Final Rejection  1  

07-09-2007  Specification  1  

07-09-2007  Claims  2  

07-09-2007  Applicant Arguments/Remarks Made in an Amendment  6  

07-09-2007  Claims  1  

07-09-2007  Status Letter Mailed to Applicant  2  

07-09-2007  Transmittal to TC  2  

05-15-2007  Non-Final Rejection  5  

05-15-2007  List of references cited by examiner  1  

05-15-2007  Index of Claims  1  

05-15-2007  Search information including classification, databases and other search related notes  1  

05-15-2007  Bibliographic Data Sheet  1  

04-17-2007  Examiner Interview Summary Record (PTOL - 413)  4  

04-17-2007  Bibliographic Data Sheet  1  

04-12-2007  Fee Worksheet (PTO-06)  1  

04-12-2007  Index of Claims  1  

04-05-2007  Amendment - After Non-Final Rejection  1  

04-05-2007  Claims  2  

04-05-2007  Applicant Arguments/Remarks Made in an Amendment  5  

04-05-2007  Status Letter Mailed to Applicant  2  

04-05-2007  Transmittal to TC  2  

03-20-2007  Non-Final Rejection  4  

03-20-2007  List of references cited by examiner  1  

03-20-2007  NPL Documents  17  

03-20-2007  Bibliographic Data Sheet  1  

03-20-2007  Index of Claims  1  

03-20-2007  Search information including classification, databases and other search related notes  1  

01-19-2007  Request for Continued Examination (RCE)  3  

01-19-2007  Fee Worksheet (PTO-06)  2  

01-19-2007  Status Letter Mailed to Applicant  2  

01-19-2007  Amendment Submitted/Entered with Filing of CPA/RCE  1  

01-19-2007  Claims  3  

01-19-2007  Applicant Arguments/Remarks Made in an Amendment  5  

01-19-2007  Claims  1  

01-19-2007  Fee Worksheet (PTO-06)  1  

12-15-2006  Final Rejection  5  

12-15-2006  Bibliographic Data Sheet  1  

12-15-2006  Index of Claims  1  

12-15-2006  Search information including classification, databases and other search related notes  1  

10-13-2006  Notice of Change of Address placed in File Wrapper due to EBC Customer Number update  1  

09-26-2006  Amendment - After Non-Final Rejection  2  

09-26-2006  Claims  2  

09-26-2006  Applicant Arguments/Remarks Made in an Amendment  3  

09-26-2006  Fee Worksheet (PTO-06)  1  

08-14-2006  Examiner Interview Summary Record (PTOL - 413)  3  

06-27-2006  Non-Final Rejection  5  

06-27-2006  Search information including classification, databases and other search related notes  1  

06-27-2006  Index of Claims  1  

06-27-2006  Bibliographic Data Sheet  1  

04-12-2006  Communication - Re: Power of Attorney (PTOL-308)  1  

04-07-2006  Supplemental Response or Supplemental Amendment  4  

04-07-2006  Specification  1  

04-07-2006  Claims  4  

04-07-2006  Applicant Arguments/Remarks Made in an Amendment  1  

04-06-2006  Power of Attorney  3  

04-05-2006  Request for Continued Examination (RCE)  6  

04-05-2006  Claims  3  

04-05-2006  Applicant Arguments/Remarks Made in an Amendment  2  

04-05-2006  Fee Worksheet (PTO-06)  1  

11-08-2005  Final Rejection  5  

11-08-2005  Bibliographic Data Sheet  1  

11-08-2005  Index of Claims  1  

11-08-2005  Search information including classification, databases and other search related notes  1  

09-12-2005  Amendment - After Non-Final Rejection  1  

09-12-2005  Claims  1  

09-12-2005  Applicant Arguments/Remarks Made in an Amendment  3  

09-12-2005  Fee Worksheet (PTO-06)  1  

03-08-2005  Non-Final Rejection  7  

03-08-2005  List of references cited by examiner  1  

03-08-2005  Search information including classification, databases and other search related notes  1  

03-08-2005  Index of Claims  1  

03-08-2005  Bibliographic Data Sheet  1  

01-03-2004  Transmittal of New Application  3  

01-03-2004  Specification  24  

01-03-2004  Claims  1  

01-03-2004  Abstract  1  

01-03-2004  Drawings-only black and white line drawings  3  

01-03-2004  Oath or Declaration filed  1  

01-03-2004  Application Data Sheet  1  

01-03-2004  Fee Worksheet (PTO-06)  1  

01-03-2004  Fee Worksheet (PTO-06)  1

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Future of FRC - Sneak Peek

I wonder how you can get a "Final" rejection three times on the same patent...

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Future of FRC - Sneak Peek

Quote:

Originally Posted by lukevanoort (Post 737060)

I wonder how you can get a "Final" rejection three times on the same patent...

I know a guy who worked for a guy who would apply for patents that he knew would fail, just to be able to put "patent pending" on his products. Apparently it takes a few years to get rejected, so he considered the recurring application fee to be part of the advertising budget.

As a side note, 802.11n occupies spectrum in both the 2.4 and 5 GHz regions.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Future of FRC - Sneak Peek

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricVanWyk (Post 737149)

As a side note, 802.11n occupies spectrum in both the 2.4 and 5 GHz regions.

right... i forgot that it was dual band
i stand corrected

...forest

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Future of FRC - Sneak Peek

How can they patent that, a 802.11 rs-422 radio with the current RC would work.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Future of FRC - Sneak Peek

My only hope is that it's not NXT based.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Future of FRC - Sneak Peek

Based on the troubling info we're learning about the FTC platform and questionable deals with Lego, it's starting to look like FIRST is selling all it's programs as markets to big companies. So if the rumors are true, I would guess Lego and their partners, Pitsco and Robolab will somehow have something to do with the new FRC system. If they're giving FLL and FTC away to companies as for-profit marketing springboards, they might as well throw FRC in. I would think having access to kids from elementary school through high school would be very appealing to companies wanting to control markets with as little or no competition as possible.
I guess I'm joking, I hope, since there's really no way for Lego, NXT or Robolab to be part of FRC. But nothing would really surprise with FIRST right now.