Re: Final YMTC of 07-08: Bluabot hits the E-stop in an awkward spot
 

I believe that lword was put in there to specifically prevent a team or alliance from blocking the field and pressing the E-Stop. Otherwise, why would it be there.

Just because it's not in the example doesn't mean blueabot can't be considered as causing the penalties.

Heck, if we go on that theory, then my other argument bears even more weight. I don't see losing a tread in the examples of what makes a robot incapacitated.

I agree that the cause and effect here is a lot less clear than a robot pushing another backwards. The way I look at it is this. If blueabot didn't break then redabot wouldn't have taken a penalty, therefore, I can argue that bluabot caused the penalty.

If I were in Blueabots shoes I would call my arguments weak. But these threads or no fun if everyone agrees.

Re: Final YMTC of 07-08: Bluabot hits the E-stop in an awkward spot
 

Guys, maybe i am misreading, but this looks pretty cut and dry...

Bluabot has been e-stopped and is now barred from receiving penalties. Redabot is in the exact situation described in update #15 which states:
"When a robot gets stuck between a Finish Line or Lane Marker and an opponent
Robot, because they would have to incur a <G22> penalty by backing across the
line in order to gain access to a free passing lane (see figure), that Robot is to be
considered to be IMPEDED and not to have a free passing lane. Therefore <G40>
and <G41> apply and a six-second count will be started on the Robot causing it to
be stuck there. This will give the stuck Robot an opportunity to begin moving again
six seconds later without having to incur a penalty."


Because Redabot pushed for 8 seconds (which would give them 2 seconds over the time period needed to wait as per update #15), they now have the opportunity to begin moving without incurring a penalty.

No penalty for redabot because they waited the 6 seconds, no penalty for bluabot because they hit the e stop.

Re: Final YMTC of 07-08: Bluabot hits the E-stop in an awkward spot
 

Update #15 is worded a little funny, but my understanding is that the update didn't change <G22>, it just added an additional example to <G40> and <G41>. I wouldn't swear to this, but I'm reasonably confident that "an opportunity to begin moving again six seconds later" refers to the other robot moving out of the way to avoid the <G41> penalty. In any case, there is no leeway in <G22> that would allow what you suggest.
How loose of a chain of actions would you permit to be considered causal? If Redabot took possession of Bluabot's trackball, I don't think you'd excuse the penalty on the grounds that it wouldn't have happened if Bluabot hadn't knocked the ball down in the first place. How about when Redabot gets tangled up in the overpass by Bluabot, and Redabot2 backs up over the line to free them? The only way this rule makes sense is if somebody else forced you to violate a rule when you didn't want to. Redabot's hand is not forced here; they have other options.

(It is worth noting that something very similar to the original scenario happened in finals match 2 at Buckeye, with the added trickiness that Redabot's gripper ended up stuck pretty deeply into Bluabot, and continuing to try to push them could cause serious damage to Bluabot. After at least six seconds, Redabot backed out, and the head ref flagged them for a game-deciding <G22>. Perhaps that isn't the right call, but at least it's some indication of how this rule is being interpreted elsewhere.)

Re: Final YMTC of 07-08: Bluabot hits the E-stop in an awkward spot
 

In this situation the only thing i see about it is consider both bots just 28"by38" boxes, place on sideways and the other one inbetween the sideways one and the finish line. Does the "trapped" bot have a way to go? yes sideways, it'd just require your bot to be able to drive sideways

Re: Final YMTC of 07-08: Bluabot hits the E-stop in an awkward spot
 

Joey,
I cannot see that update #15 is written to make a team sit there for 6 seconds, only to determine if another robot will move or not. I think it is very clear that the rule is there to allow a team to break <G22> by "bumping to pass" waiting the full 6 seconds, and then proceeding without incurring a penalty...i believe that is the instance. <G22> doesn't change....however "proceed without incurring a penalty" seems to me that it is made to allow an instance for a team to go around a robot that is impeding them. In this case the bluabot is impeding, however because of the e-stop they do not incur that penalty.

Re: Final YMTC of 07-08: Bluabot hits the E-stop in an awkward spot
 

In every one of these Dogwood Regional Innaugural events we've seen since the first YMTC of this year, I would have to think that the timing of the regional would play into this.

Update 15 was released March 6, 2008.

Since Dogwood Regional was obviously brought into our lives way before then, the clarification does not exists as spelled out in Update 15 & the call is up to the referees at the regional. ;) (And a tough one I may add)

I don't like to think that calls would be different if Dogwood was the same week as NYC (the last week) than NJ (the first week) but it is what it is.

Now, past technicalities (sort of) & onto what I would do if I was a ref:

My personal choice would be to give each team something that would lead it to a tie, or replay the match - the latter of those preferred since pretty much when it comes down to it both teams had a game play limiting match due to a weird action on the field.

And remember kids, all referee calls are final.
Replaying a match (after discussing it with both teams who obviously didn't have the best match they could play because of a set of weird circumstances) is one of those calls a referee could make & have made in the past.
That would be my choice.