Re: Purchasing the 2009 controller
 

That does not explicitly state that teams won't be receiving a new controller each year. It just says that they will be reusable (as opposed to the IFI RC where we were only allowed to use the current year controller).
I must say their answer is kind of weird since they didn't answer their own question.
I actually understood the opposite from the NI reps who said teams would be getting a new one each year so they could continue using their old robots.

Re: Purchasing the 2009 controller
 

Yeah it did not explicitly state that teams will be reusing old controllers. The passively stated "may" and further added that new components may be used to modify an old controller. Maybe this is kin do like how at the regional, we couldnt use a pre-2004 IFI controller since IFI modified their controller over the years.
Btw, speaking of IFI, do you think the 2008 robot controller will be dramatically reduced in price? I see it as a potential educational tool for our middle schools.

Thanks

Re: Purchasing the 2009 controller
 

Only a few hours after initially talking to the NI guys, apparently they may be able to send us some COTS parts- the cRIO amd the PWM, digital IO, and solenoid plugins.

more updates to come...

Re: Purchasing the 2009 controller
 

I think that is a pretty clear answer. We will only get one and that's it and the question right above it states we will only be able to purchase one additional controller each year at the reduced (read comparable to this years) price. A while ago we had to return the control system to FIRST at the end of the year so this isn't as bad as it used to be.

Re: Purchasing the 2009 controller
 

Yes, the cost of the cRIO-9074 plus the modules is quite significant, so we are not able to provide (read: DONATE) a new cRIO controller to FIRST each and every year. So, you will be required to re-use the cRIO for multiple years - though new (read: ADDITIONAL/SUPPLEMENTARY) cRIO modules may be given to teams in their KOP if new modules are required or are advantageous. Teams who want a new controller each year will be required to purchase a new unit plus modules at the incredibly discounted cost.

-Danny

Re: Purchasing the 2009 controller
 

Actually the rep I spoke to personally told me that the inserts would change from year to year but you only get the base once.

I would like to know how "heavily reduced" the price of the system will be for the offer to sell a "second controller" to a team each year? Does that imply we would get a new controller each year?

Or- to put it bluntly- does anyone actually know the facts here?

WC

Re: Purchasing the 2009 controller
 

The only hard facts you will see are in the FAQ at http://first.wpi.edu/2009_FRC_Controller_FAQ_FINAL.pdf other then that what you will get from most of us is what we were told at the NI booth in Atlanta.

Re: Purchasing the 2009 controller
 

The NI rep we spoke with at the Championship told us that the cost has not yet been finalized, but that they were working to get it "near to the cost of the existing system" when discounted. The current system costs about $1200, so maybe the cost of the new system will be in the $1200-1500 range, but I suppose some people could define $2000 as being "near to $1200" too...

Frankly I don't understand how FIRST can possibly claim that they are not increasing the cost of the program. To get the same equipment that we currently get each year (since we, like many teams, really like to keep our old robots functional), we're going to have to spend an additional amount of money (likely $1000+) each year. If we choose not to spend this money, we get LESS than what we get now. How is that not raising the cost?

A different NI rep also told us that the software for the system is not done yet and will not be complete until sometime in the fall, so we may not see availability of this stuff anytime soon.

Re: Purchasing the 2009 controller
 

This is correct. The actual controller/backplane/chassis unit will only be given to teams once, but it's still unclear on whether the plug-in modules will be required to be "recycled/reused" from year to year - the current bet is that you will have to recycle everything. You will definitely get supplementary modules in the KOP when they are made available to teams.

You are NOT getting a new controller in the KOP each year. The price of the cRIO unit prevents that - NI is DONATING these units to FIRST, at a cost of several million dollars the first year and more the next several years for expected additional teams; to amortize the cost of the units we must ask teams to reuse controllers from year to year. The "additional" controller you will be able to purchase each year will be sold at a rate similar to what the current 2008 control system is sold for, so as to not be a hefty burden on teams. This price will almost be completely cost of goods (minus parts that are donated by other companies specifically for FIRST, such as the Xilinx FPGA and others) plus cost of manufacturing. Some of this is still up in the air, and as soon as we know the final number FIRST will make sure you know the final number.

-Danny

Re: Purchasing the 2009 controller
 

That's EXACTLY my point! This year, and each year for the past 8 or 9 years, we have received an COMPLETE, NEW control system as part of our registration fee. Starting next year, it appears that we will NOT receive a complete, new control system each year, but likely will still be paying the same registration fee. FIRST claims, in their FAQ, that they are not raising the cost of the registration fee. I claim that they are, indirectly, by requiring me to purchase a very expensive additional piece of equipment that was previously included in the registration cost.

Re: Purchasing the 2009 controller
 

Yes, this is correct. Especially the C/C++ development module is not complete, plus training materials and other items. Definitely don't expect anything to be made available until the fall at a minimum.

-Danny

Re: Purchasing the 2009 controller
 

Ok, so now we've heard some information from an official source. Thanks, Danny.

As someone starting a new team, I was very concerned about this whole price-of-a-second-controller issue. I'm not technically inclined, but overall I'm excited for this new system and the possibilities it presents.

Re: Purchasing the 2009 controller
 

Wow.... I appreciate the donation by NI, but not getting a new controller per year is a major step backwards; regardless of it being more advanced.

Re: Purchasing the 2009 controller
 

Suppose an automobile dealer were to offer the following great deal:

• First-time customers pay $6000 for a brand new car.
• Repeat customers can get a new car every year for $6000, but they won't get a new engine controller. Instead, they must remove the engine controller from their existing car and install it in the new one. Or, they can pay $8000 and get a complete new car.
• The dealer sponsors a really fun road rally every year, but you must purchase a new car to participate.

How many repeat customers will this dealer get?

Re: Purchasing the 2009 controller
 

We have thought about building a second robot for a long time. We want to make the leap to the next level and after some advice from some championship caliber teams we decided this is a must for next year. The extra driver practice is just to valuable.

But now that we have committed to ourselves to raise the funds necessary to make the leap next year, bam, up jumps the devil and another couple grand gets thrown into the mix.