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-   -   Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67053)

KarenH 22-04-2008 01:20

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dlavery (Post 740624)
The black tarp is installed in the Georgia Dome every spring. It stays up throughout the summer, and is usually removed just before the start of football season. The primary reason for the tarp is to keep sunlight filtering through the translucent fabric of the roof from completely overwhelming the air conditioning system and heating the Dome to the point of being uninhabitable. The tarp is usually installed a few weeks after the FIRST Championship, but it may be installed earlier if other Dome clients request it. This year the Arbonne Cosmetics show, which preceded the FIRST Championship in the Dome, paid a hefty sum (you don't want to know how much) to have the tarp installed early to create the right "lighting mood" for their show.

-dave

Dave, thanks for the info. and the picture.

I suppose it does no good for a mere spectator like me to complain, but when we're in the stands trying to take pictures of the matches, the Georgia Dome sans black tarps is the ONLY venue with enough light to get decent pictures. I was thrilled to be there in 2004 with a new digital camera, got lots of wonderful pictures from the stands--and was really upset the next year to find the whole roof blackened, and my pictures were just as dark and blurry as at the dingy old venues where the regionals are held.

I think we had all assumed the tarps were up in 2005 for the new CMU cams. It would sure be nice if FIRST could persuade the Dome officials to hold off on the tarps till after our competition.

**Off topic: Despite the many wonderful design features of the Georgia Dome, with its easy accessibility for spectators and that amazing roof fabric (I never can believe the whole thing weighs less than I do)--didn't it occur to the designers that a thin roof would make it into a summer bake oven?**

Carol 22-04-2008 08:42

Re: FIRST Finale scheduling, water, and media troubles
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sanddrag (Post 740779)
II didn't really think the ban on bottled water entering the dome was proper. Affordable access to water is (or at least should be) a basic human right. Bottled water should not be monopolized at this type of event. It shouldn't take someone being poor, not being able to afford the dome's water, being denied their own, and passing out on the floor for dehydration to make someone realize that people need water without restriction. Let us take it in. We aren't going to buy your $3 bottle of water even if you don't let us bring in our own. It's just absurd. It doesn't do anyone any good.

And what is wrong with bringing an empty bottle with you and filling it at the event? Maybe I'm old, but I am from the days when bottled water was non-existent and everyone drank from water fountains. No one ever passed out from dehydration.

And for the security guards at the Dome, give them a break. With so many of them there will be different interpretations at different gates. They are human after all. It is not a high paying job and I bet they could easily lose their job if they allow exceptions. So be gracious and accommodate them even if you disagree. Gracious professionalism isn't just for behavior on the field.

And don't forget, next time, that judges do watch your team's behavior off the field. How would you feel if your team lost an award because a judge observed your fit of temper at the gate?

TD78 22-04-2008 08:50

Re: Black Tarp Under GA Dome Roof
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dangerousdave (Post 740824)
On Friday, I entered the Dome and right behind me were two ladies holding 1 bottle each of water. The attendant at the door suggested that they simply go back out, put the water in their handbags and reenter the gate which they did with no problem, so obviously there are exceptions to the rule.
Dave

I had a bottle of water in a cargo pocket in my shorts and walked in and out all day without a problem. I was very surprised though about not having my backpack searched...I thought in past years they had done that, but this year staff didn't seem to care. I could've brought in a case of water in that backpack if I wanted to.

GaryVoshol 22-04-2008 09:38

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by EricH (Post 740655)
With 44 regionals next year and ~ 20 teams with a slot already, here's the math:
6 teams/regional*44 regionals +20=284 teams currently qualify through past performance/regional performance. (Next year)

So how long would it take to max out? Add 1 team per year (HoF addition) and run some numbers. I'm going to assume steady growth of 3 regionals per year. For the 2010-2012 seasons:
303
322
341
and the next year, we're over the current team limit. Or, how many more regionals will it take? At 3 a year, it takes 3 years, so 9-10 more regionals (after the 2009 season).

Not all teams will come. But, there still won't be a whole lot of room for non-qualifying teams.

So for the next 3-4 Championship Events, the current system would work. But after that, either a different qualification method (e.g. super-regionals that you get to through regionals) or more (or bigger) divisions would be necessary.

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Brinza (Post 740773)
Six teams per regional is a worse-case scenario. In reality, there are teams that will win more than one regional, or hall-of-fame teams, past champions, CA and EI that will also win one or more regional. That could prolong the inevitable change in the Championship qualification criteria or format.

On the other hand, if FIRST's growth rate increases (400 new teams next year?), the change may occur even sooner. Another thread discusses possible new venues: could a requirement on the facility be the ability to accommodate ~700 teams, eight division fields + Einstein??

The other alternative to this: Limit the number of regionals a team can enter, so that there will not be more regionals needed, and will not be a need for more spots at Championships. 44 regionals * 55(avg) teams per event means they can accomodate 2420 teams. That takes us through several more years, at least. I don't know that we'll get 400 additional teams per year; according to the annual report we have netted about 200 more teams per year for the past 3 or 4 years.

This is not an alternative that I or most people would like, but it is an alternative.

Rick TYler 22-04-2008 11:03

Re: FIRST Finale scheduling, water, and media troubles
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Carol (Post 740934)
And what is wrong with bringing an empty bottle with you and filling it at the event? Maybe I'm old, but I am from the days when bottled water was non-existent and everyone drank from water fountains. No one ever passed out from dehydration.

As near as I could tell, there are NO drinking fountains in the Georgia Dome. At least I couldn't find one. Modern profit maximization at its finest. The Dodgers famously did this when they built Dodger Stadium, but back then it was regarded as a mistake and the team quickly added drinking fountains. I don't expect something so rational in this degraded age. :]

Karthik 22-04-2008 11:03

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 
Overall I thought this year's Championship was a rousing success on the organizational side. Considering the damage from the tornado, I was not expecting things to run so smoothly. This a testament to all the amazing people who work to put this event together for us.

Also, the dome and GWCC staff were amazing. They were all incredibly kind, saying hello and good luck to me each morning. Southern hospitality is alive and strong. It made the event that much more enjoyable.

Some things I loved:

- The confetti and streamers after the final match on Einstein, accompanied by we are the champions. This is a moment I'll never forget for the rest of my life, it gave the competition a true sense of importance and legitimacy. It felt like we had just won the Super Bowl or World Series. This needs to stay.

- Giving the Chairman's Award winners the proper level of respect. The award may have been too early in the ceremony, but it did ensure that no one left before the announcement. Also, the seating on the main stage was a nice touch.

- The concessions in the pits. This was a great idea, and made life easier for all teams.

A few things that I'd like to see changed:

- The seat saving rules need to be enforced. We saw a single student walk into the dome and put tape around 30 seats. That's just ridiculous. If your team wants 30 seats together, have 30 people show up at the dome and sit in those seats. Blocking off groups of seats like that is incredibly frustrating for all teams.

- It would be nice if there was someone to clear the aisles in the seating at the dome. Too often there would be people sitting in the aisle, blocking the entire stairway. This is not only an inconvenience, but a major safety hazard.

- Keep a few of the staircases between the stands and the field open. It allows driveteam members to pop into the stands after a match, without having to go all the way around. They did this by the Vex fields, but nowhere else.

- Better signage between the pits and the fields. Maybe I'm just a moron, but I was completely lost the first few times I tried making the trek between the dome and the various pit buildings.

- Thursday morning load-in. It was chaotic and borderline dangerous. I saw numerous incidents of batteries and other heavy objects falling off of carts, pushing and shoving to get in the doors, and many other unsafe practices. We need to either let teams bring in more stuff on Wednesday night, or find a way to open another set of doors on Thursday morning to help alleviate the bottleneck.

I can't wait for 2009 to see how they manage to top the amazing show that was the 2008 World Championship.

EricH 22-04-2008 11:06

Re: FIRST Finale scheduling, water, and media troubles
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick TYler (Post 741010)
As near as I could tell, there are NO drinking fountains in the Georgia Dome. At least I couldn't find one.

Law number one of drinking fountain location: Look near a restroom. I know on the main level, there's at least one, around the corner from a restroom. I think there are many more. They just hide them with food carts.

GaryVoshol 22-04-2008 11:07

Re: FIRST Finale scheduling, water, and media troubles
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick TYler (Post 741010)
As near as I could tell, there are NO drinking fountains in the Georgia Dome. At least I couldn't find one.

Around the corner from most bathrooms. Sometimes partially hidden by portable vending booths, but they are there.

Rick TYler 22-04-2008 11:11

Re: FIRST Finale scheduling, water, and media troubles
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by EricH (Post 741014)
Law number one of drinking fountain location: Look near a restroom. I know on the main level, there's at least one, around the corner from a restroom. I think there are many more. They just hide them with food carts.

Don't teach your grandmother to suck eggs, boy :) . I *did* look near the bathrooms, I just didn't think to walk around into unused tunnels behind food vendors to look for drinking fountains. Normal architecture is to put them in front of and near the entrance to restrooms. Perhaps this was marketing -- follow building code rules by having drinking fountains, but make them impossible to find so that people keep spending $25 a gallon on bottled water. That, my friend, is capitalism in action!

JaneYoung 22-04-2008 11:14

Re: FIRST Finale scheduling, water, and media troubles
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol (Post 741015)
Around the corner from most bathrooms. Sometimes partially hidden by portable vending booths, but they are there.

Ah heck, and to think I just used the water out of the tap in the restroom. Silly me.

Mr. Kamen's water system is sounding pretty cool. It will be awesome to see it develop. We know Georgia and other areas of the south have been dealing with a severe drought - Kell Robotics, FRC 1311, is an awesome resource with all their information regarding water and conservation.

I was able to stay hydrated for several days with minimal cost. We also provided water for the pit crew/drive team - it was up to them to drink it. I think it was the 'lead the horse to water' thing.

Rory Windrim 22-04-2008 12:15

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 
I understand why FIRST changed the CA to the first award on Sat. If you were there last or the year before by the time the elimination rounds were over, most of the people in the stands were leaving or already gone. A lot of people were catching buses (have to get the students home to go to school on Monday) or going to the "party" that started an hour or so earlier. Maybe FIRST needs to look at starting a half-day or day earlier and adding another round or two for qualifying then finish qualifying earlier on Sat. Just my thoughts. As always, it's exhausting, challenging and mind-numbing but we wouldn't miss it for anything.

sanddrag 22-04-2008 12:36

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Karthik (Post 741011)
- Better signage between the pits and the fields. Maybe I'm just a moron, but I was completely lost the first few times I tried making the trek between the dome and the various pit buildings.

- Thursday morning load-in. It was chaotic and borderline dangerous. I saw numerous incidents of batteries and other heavy objects falling off of carts, pushing and shoving to get in the doors, and many other unsafe practices. We need to either let teams bring in more stuff on Wednesday night, or find a way to open another set of doors on Thursday morning to help alleviate the bottleneck.

Agreed. Signage is an area FIRST can do better at every event. Wednesday load-in (multiple trips!) is something that in my mind is a necessity. Much safer when there isn't a flood of people all in a rush.

CzarValvador 22-04-2008 14:43

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 
My only issue is the location.

A place where some guy was pestering us because he wanted to give us the tour of the "underground", doesn't seem to be a good place to have a bunch of highschoolers and Lego League kids.

The Atlanta dome is amazing and all, but Atlanta itself...

Adam Y. 22-04-2008 14:45

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CzarValvador (Post 741128)
My only issue is the location.

A place where some guy was pestering us because he wanted to give us the tour of the "underground", doesn't seem to be a good place to have a bunch of highschoolers and Lego League kids.

The Atlanta dome is amazing and all, but Atlanta itself...

This is like most cities in the United States so I don't reallly see how you can fix that.

EricH 22-04-2008 14:45

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CzarValvador (Post 741128)
My only issue is the location.

A place where some guy was pestering us because he wanted to give us the tour of the "underground", doesn't seem to be a good place to have a bunch of highschoolers and Lego League kids.

The Atlanta dome is amazing and all, but Atlanta itself...

I would suspect he meant Underground Atlanta. (Yes, there is a place by that name! I've never been there, but if I remember what I've been told, it's eating and shopping.)

The homeless in the area of the Dome are more of a minor annoyance than anything else. Ignore them and move on is the typical tactic. (Or just say no.)

Billfred 22-04-2008 14:57

Re: FIRST Finale scheduling, water, and media troubles
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick TYler (Post 741020)
Don't teach your grandmother to suck eggs, boy :) . I *did* look near the bathrooms, I just didn't think to walk around into unused tunnels behind food vendors to look for drinking fountains. Normal architecture is to put them in front of and near the entrance to restrooms. Perhaps this was marketing -- follow building code rules by having drinking fountains, but make them impossible to find so that people keep spending $25 a gallon on bottled water. That, my friend, is capitalism in action!

From my second day notes in MKTG 350, Principles of Marketing, at USC:

Quote:

marketing: the process of planning and executing the conception, pricing, promotion, and distribution of goods and services to create exchanges that satisfy individual and organizational goals.
Hiding a water fountain meets all of that definition except for individual goals, hence we're now no longer meeting the definition of marketing and moving more into the realm of highway robbery. Given the importance of hydration to keeping healthy at FRC events, this topic should be brought up with the Dome and GWCC staff. (Or, alternatively, work with someone willing to hook up a few hundred teams with water as they have at Palmetto in years past.)

ebarker 22-04-2008 15:07

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 
<SOAPBOX>

Long story - We had been looking for ways to help people understand why engineering is relevant to life. After Dean made his comments at 2007 kickoff about water games we decided to build a program about water. After all it is relevant and familiar. Water it turns out is a very complicated and touchy subject and is going to a lot more so.

Fast forward- We were going to do public events to promote robotics and while we were there sell water to fund our humanitarian well effort. Good idea. Right !! WRONG !!!

It was nearly IMPOSSIBLE to find a venue that would allow us to sell water. It’s a free country but when it comes to public events vendors pretty much have things locked down, even water. Eventually we found a great venue that allowed us to sell water at our robotics booth. That is why another high school is listed as a team sponsor, because they had the lock on water sales and gave up revenue for our robotics booth and water effort. Vendor protection - I understand their right to do so at town festivals and other venues and such. But as to how that extends to other permanent standing venues…. More on that in a minute.

Later, I was at a football game in a very old and historic stadium very near the Dome on a hot day. People were lined up 10 deep at water fountains trying to refill water bottles. Only some water fountains worked and the working ones were extremely NOT ergonomic for filling bottles but designed to give a sip of water in the 1930s. It was the definition of non-service.

About that same time that institution announced a conference where they would tell the public about all the sustainability efforts they were doing. Which is fine but they were clueless about the fountains and the issues there.

Here is my observation – permanent facilities, sports arenas, office buildings, malls, universities, etc, etc have water fountains because of building code only. The code describes the frequency of occurrence of fountains, not functionality. Installing these facilities costs money. Putting in vending machines makes money. This isn’t rocket science. The code makes facilities install water fountains because of public and health safety. It doesn’t matter that it takes 15 or 20 minutes to get to a fountain.

So last fall we took a picture of a standard non-refrigerated water fountain and edited it to look like this:



We even came up with a version that is drinkable like a fountain and refills bottles without bumping your head but I can't find the picture right now.

I am told (but don’t know for fact) that bottle refilling fountains are now mandated in Western Europe. As stated before there is not economic incentive here to do that, just public outcry. This is the intersection of engineering, facilities management, public policy, safety and health, and economics. It is an interesting study.

Prohibiting bottled water and water bottles in public venues is intolerable except where it is a health and safety issue – rest areas must be provided, with sufficient refilling stations.

From a sustainability issue – I would much prefer our group use individual water bottles and refill them at filling stations. However since we are still in the dark ages, we travel with water. Our booth was equipped initially with 200 bottles of water for members to consume in the non-pit areas. This is one of the things we learned after Dean suggested ‘water game’ !

</SOAPBOX>

Karthik 22-04-2008 15:13

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam Y. (Post 741129)
This is like most cities in the United States so I don't reallly see how you can fix that.

Have the Championships in Canada. ;)

Rick TYler 22-04-2008 15:19

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Karthik (Post 741151)
Have the Championships in Canada. ;)

All right, none of that, Karthik. The only reason there aren't more homeless people in Canada is that they've all frozen to death.

EDITED TO ADD: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homelessness_in_Canada

Tom Bottiglieri 22-04-2008 15:24

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Karthik (Post 741151)
Have the Championships in Canada. ;)

And trade shorts for parkas?
I'm not sure how the public would take to that.

How about FIRST Ice Bowl 2009?

Adam Y. 22-04-2008 15:52

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick TYler (Post 741157)
All right, none of that, Karthik. The only reason there aren't more homeless people in Canada is that they've all frozen to death.

EDITED TO ADD: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homelessness_in_Canada

I think he was making fun of my choice of words more than actually suggesting the competition be moved to Canada. :P

Rick TYler 22-04-2008 16:05

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam Y. (Post 741186)
I think he was making fun of my choice of words more than actually suggesting the competition be moved to Canada. :P

I don't know -- once you let these Canadians win ONE world championship they get all giddy with power. Next thing you know, they'll be taking over most of the North American Arctic, and winning curling world championships. (Martin vs. Howard was SUCH a cool match up...)

Bcliff358 22-04-2008 16:41

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 
The security at the doors were pretty nice people. If you didn't make it blatantly clear that you were bringing food or drinks in, then they wouldn't do anything. After all they are just following orders.

One thing I did not enjoy were the numerous awards given out in between matches on Einstein. I think that the excitement from the matches was kind of lost. And i don't really think that it's that fair to give the einstein teams that much time in between matches to work on their robots. Its like a 20 minute time out.

Vikesrock 22-04-2008 16:46

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bcliff358 (Post 741236)
The security at the doors were pretty nice people. If you didn't make it blatantly clear that you were bringing food or drinks in, then they wouldn't do anything. After all they are just following orders.

One thing I did not enjoy were the numerous awards given out in between matches on Einstein. I think that the excitement from the matches was kind of lost. And i don't really think that it's that fair to give the einstein teams that much time in between matches to work on their robots. Its like a 20 minute time out.

Not fair to who? I haven't seen a single team that was on Einstein complain about this and they all had equal time to work on their robots.

I personally like the awards between matches although I think they should do 1 or 2 less between each match and save some for the finals, if they run out of breaks just tack them on the end.

KarenH 22-04-2008 17:23

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bcliff358 (Post 741236)
One thing I did not enjoy were the numerous awards given out in between matches on Einstein. I think that the excitement from the matches was kind of lost. And i don't really think that it's that fair to give the einstein teams that much time in between matches to work on their robots. Its like a 20 minute time out.

FIRST used to save the awards till after all the matches. So in between matches we would have long periods of waiting, numerous time outs, and a bored crowd. Then we would have an awards ceremony that went on and on. It is a much better use of time to present a few awards while the robots are cooling off between matches. (Teams get 20 minutes or more between qualifying matches; why should things be different in the eliminations?)

I also liked the switch this year, at both regionals and the Championship, to running all of the elimination matches in succession, then cycling through them all again, rather than trying to do all QF-1 matches, then QF-2, etc. (anyway, that's how I remember it being done in previous years).

Especially for those of us sitting in the stands a long time, streamlining the competition makes it more interesting, and we're less likely to fall asleep or cause trouble. (Paper airplanes, anyone?)

dlavery 22-04-2008 19:23

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KarenH (Post 741271)
FIRST used to save the awards till after all the matches. So in between matches we would have long periods of waiting, numerous time outs, and a bored crowd. Then we would have an awards ceremony that went on and on. It is a much better use of time to present a few awards while the robots are cooling off between matches. (Teams get 20 minutes or more between qualifying matches; why should things be different in the eliminations?)

I just want to back up what Karen has said. Those of us that have been around long enough to remember the days at EPCOT where the awards ceremony was a single three-and-a-half-hour-long event never, ever, ever want to go back to that structure. Interleaving the final matches on Einstein with a few awards has been a much better solution, albeit slightly painful at times.

-dave


.

NEMOQueuer 22-04-2008 19:45

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 
I agree with those who felt the CA got downplayed by putting it first. I also understand that we want everyone to stay until it is announced. So my solution would be to tie the CA and the final match together either just before or just after the final match.

David Doerr 22-04-2008 19:48

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bcliff358 (Post 741236)
And i don't really think that it's that fair to give the einstein teams that much time in between matches to work on their robots. Its like a 20 minute time out.

Aaaaaarrrrg - I wish we had had more time to fix our arm during the finals - just 5 more minutes...

NEMOQueuer 22-04-2008 20:20

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 
Originally Posted by Bcliff358 View Post
And i don't really think that it's that fair to give the einstein teams that much time in between matches to work on their robots. Its like a 20 minute time out.

And they still called time outs. I agree to the point that they will never really need to use an alternate team with all that time between matches.

Cory 22-04-2008 20:23

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dlavery (Post 741321)
I just want to back up what Karen has said. Those of us that have been around long enough to remember the days at EPCOT where the awards ceremony was a single three-and-a-half-hour-long event never, ever, ever want to go back to that structure. Interleaving the final matches on Einstein with a few awards has been a much better solution, albeit slightly painful at times.

-dave


.

I thoroughly agree with Dave. Sitting out in the sun on Einstein for another 2-3 hours after the conclusion of matches was absolutely brutal. People got bored, stopped paying attention, started water fights, throwing beach balls around, etc.

Liz Smith 22-04-2008 20:29

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by NEMOQueuer (Post 741336)
I agree with those who felt the CA got downplayed by putting it first. I also understand that we want everyone to stay until it is announced. So my solution would be to tie the CA and the final match together either just before or just after the final match.

I liked when the CA was announced. At first it took me by surprise, but the more I thought about it, the more it made sense. If you're not going to do it last, you should do it first. It made sense that it was presented with the top awards for the FLL and FTC programs as well. Also, I thought it was nice that the team was then given a seat on stage.

dlavery 22-04-2008 20:43

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by NEMOQueuer (Post 741358)
Originally Posted by Bcliff358 View Post
And i don't really think that it's that fair to give the einstein teams that much time in between matches to work on their robots. Its like a 20 minute time out.

And they still called time outs. I agree to the point that they will never really need to use an alternate team with all that time between matches.

I guess I just don't understand what the objection is here. What exactly is unfair?

Even with the speeches, award presentations, and alternating division matches, the time between consecutive matches for any of the alliances that make it to the Einstein field is still considerably less than that experienced by every other team during the qualification matches. They have a shorter period between their matches to affect repairs, they can not return to their pits for parts or supplies, and (new this year) they are forced to work on their robots via flashlight in a darkened arena. So can someone please explain where they are getting an advantage?

Given the situation, if we have to choose between granting an extra three minutes to an Einstein-bound team to repair their damaged robot and then let them participate as a full competitor, or have the International FRC Championship be decided by having a damaged robot fail to make it to the field because we could not wait for them to complete a repair, I will always choose the former option.

-dave



.

Ryan Foley 22-04-2008 20:52

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 
Announce the Woodie Flowers Award winner on Saturday. It is one of the top honors in FIRST, and deserves to be with the other top honors during the Saturday awards. Yes, it will add more time, but only what, 10 minutes?

Also, a better alternation between awards and matches would be nice. This year, the first 2 hours of awards only had 2 matches played, with the remaining matches all in the last hour. Some of those matches probably could have been earlier, helping to add some more excitement by not having 50 minutes of awards/ speeches.

pythagoras 22-04-2008 21:17

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Foley (Post 741378)
Announce the Woodie Flowers Award winner on Saturday. It is one of the top honors in FIRST, and deserves to be with the other top honors during the Saturday awards. Yes, it will add more time, but only what, 10 minutes?

Also, a better alternation between awards and matches would be nice. This year, the first 2 hours of awards only had 2 matches played, with the remaining matches all in the last hour. Some of those matches probably could have been earlier, helping to add some more excitement by not having 50 minutes of awards/ speeches.

those awards would probably be better placed between final matches, thats when they are needed the most considering we only have time to swap out batteries with the time that they give us.

Alan Anderson 22-04-2008 22:43

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Foley (Post 741378)
Announce the Woodie Flowers Award winner on Saturday. It is one of the top honors in FIRST, and deserves to be with the other top honors during the Saturday awards.

Counterpoint: announcing the WFA winner on Friday gives him or her an entire day to be greeted and congratulated by everyone else at the event.

Billfred 23-04-2008 00:19

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 
One that Kathie Kentfield reminded me of: media badges.

Now, I've had a media badge for the past two years, and they are quite necessary for many things. However, I see many media-badged people who don't seem to be in the act of creating media.

My solution: people badged as media should have to show some kind of equipment in addition to their badge in order to gain access to controlled areas (queueing and the Dome floor come to mind). Exactly what kind of equipment is not important--point-and-shoot cameras are just as welcome as bajillion-dollar HD video cameras--but you'd have a hard time convincing me that you need to be on the floor as a media rep when you have no method of recording that which is around you.

Cory 23-04-2008 00:41

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Billfred (Post 741499)
One that Kathie Kentfield reminded me of: media badges.

Now, I've had a media badge for the past two years, and they are quite necessary for many things. However, I see many media-badged people who don't seem to be in the act of creating media.

My solution: people badged as media should have to show some kind of equipment in addition to their badge in order to gain access to controlled areas (queueing and the Dome floor come to mind). Exactly what kind of equipment is not important--point-and-shoot cameras are just as welcome as bajillion-dollar HD video cameras--but you'd have a hard time convincing me that you need to be on the floor as a media rep when you have no method of recording that which is around you.

Media can refer to print media as well.

Billfred 23-04-2008 08:32

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cory (Post 741514)
Media can refer to print media as well.

And my girlfriend is a print journalism major--good thing she's not on CD! :eek:

I suppose a reporter's notebook would fall under the domain of equipment as well.

Mike Martus 23-04-2008 18:35

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 
Hmmmm no one has mentioned the pairings for the seeding...strange not like the regionals?

It looked like teams were grouped.....then matched... or do I need to buy a lotto ticket? We never played or were with a team higher than 111.... what are the odds against that in seven matches.

Vikesrock 23-04-2008 18:40

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Martus (Post 741825)
Hmmmm no one has mentioned the pairings for the seeding...strange not like the regionals?

It looked like teams were grouped.....then matched... or do I need to buy a lotto ticket? We never played or were with a team higher than 111.... what are the odds against that in seven matches.

The minimum match spacing set too high and the teams not randomized before being entered into the algorithm likely combined to result in this behavior.

Chris Fultz 23-04-2008 19:41

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Foley (Post 741378)
Announce the Woodie Flowers Award winner on Saturday. It is one of the top honors in FIRST, and deserves to be with the other top honors during the Saturday awards. Yes, it will add more time, but only what, 10 minutes?

The WFA was moved to Friday a few years ago so that teams could greet and congratulate the winner during the two days of competition. If it is announced on Saturday afternoon, many would not see the winner again for several months.

Friday makes it more personal.

ExarKun666 23-04-2008 20:09

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Vikesrock (Post 741826)
The minimum match spacing set too high and the teams not randomized before being entered into the algorithm likely combined to result in this behavior.

Well if this is the case they need to have more randomized, rather then grouped, because some teams, rarely, who aren't good get into quarter finals, who don't really belong there just because of a previous alliance that made them look really good.

Travis Hoffman 23-04-2008 20:15

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ExarKun666 (Post 741874)
Well if this is the case they need to have more randomized, rather then grouped, because some teams, rarely, who aren't good get into quarter finals, who don't really belong there just because of a previous alliance that made them look really good.

Another thread handles this discussion -

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67108

Madison 23-04-2008 20:16

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Martus (Post 741825)
Hmmmm no one has mentioned the pairings for the seeding...strange not like the regionals?

It looked like teams were grouped.....then matched... or do I need to buy a lotto ticket? We never played or were with a team higher than 111.... what are the odds against that in seven matches.

Y'all played with us the same time you played with 111, but you might not remember us because we played the worst defense in the history of FIRST Robotics. FLL teams play better defense than we did.

KathieK 23-04-2008 21:02

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Billfred (Post 741499)
media badges: My solution: people badged as media should have to show some kind of equipment in addition to their badge in order to gain access to controlled areas (queueing and the Dome floor come to mind). Exactly what kind of equipment is not important--point-and-shoot cameras are just as welcome as bajillion-dollar HD video cameras--but you'd have a hard time convincing me that you need to be on the floor as a media rep when you have no method of recording that which is around you.

In order to stay on the daVinci Fields, they had to show me proof that they were indeed media people.
I thought the people of Atlanta were wonderful! Every one of them was pleasant. The amount of damage to the area was unexpected; I didn't realize so many buildings had lost so much glass. Kudos to the city for cleaning up and welcoming us so graciously!
I loved checking in the FTC teams in Bldg. C on Wednesday; the FLL teams had to walk by us to get to their check-in table so we got to see teams from both programs.
I love the excitement of being on the Dome floor for competition. I wouldn't want FLL or FTC competing in another building, even if it meant that we didn't have schedules and AV systems competing with FRC. I wish more of the 800 FTC teams could have qualified to attend. I wish more people would come by and cheer for the teams. I wish more people would volunteer to help on the FTC fields. The volunteer pool is starting to grow, but it isn't quite there yet. I can't say enough Thank You's to the folks who did volunteer; we had an awesome group!
I disliked having to share the AV system between Franklin and Edison. I hope FIRST can resolve that in future years. And add a DJ so we have some music on the floor.
I respect that we needed to hold off on starting our matches Friday morning until the FRC Opening Ceremonies were complete, but it would have been nice to be able to see what was happening. Someone said we had a former President there??? :yikes: We couldn't see nor hear anything of the ceremonies on daVinci. I understand wanting FRC teams to sit near Einstein to fill the stands, but FTC HAD to be ready to go as soon as they ended, so we couldn't go watch.
I apologize to the volunteers and teams who were so late leaving on Friday night - I know many of you had people waiting for you for dinner and team social plans.
I love that so many mentors attended our NEMO meeting on Friday and wish that I could have spent more time with you all (Thank you Jenny!), and am sorry that I missed the CD Web Hug and most of the FIRST Senior Mentor meeting - I need to be cloned.
For those of you who kept checking with me, my final pedometer reading for The World Championships was 36.6 miles! :ahh: Next year I encourage everyone to wear one to each competition they attend, and let's keep an ongoing log - can you imagine how many miles we'd log over the course of a competition season?!

zivo123 23-04-2008 21:26

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 
i have only one suggestion for improvement- im sure this probably came up before but maybe it should come up one more time to make a difference:
didnt you find the uncrating day a bit unneccecary?
Maybe the first day should be uncrating in the morning and then beggining with practice matches (after a couple of hours to work on the robots)..
then the second day could be part practice part qualifications, the third and the fourth day will remain the same.
what you have gained by this cange is about 2-3 more qualification games for each team which i think is neccesary for determaning the seedings.
What do you think?

ebarker 23-04-2008 21:36

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 
The uncrating is important because it gives the staff time to move all the crates out of the way without risking injury. It is a logistical and safety issue.

It is also important that the teams respect the planning decisions made by FIRST regarding who and what goes in on Wednesday. Whether 1000% of us agree with it or not is irrelevant. I don't want to start that argument again. I know there were people lawyering and breaking the rules again, not GP. I hope we can all agree to have a nice streamlined Wednesday night unpacking.

artdutra04 24-04-2008 02:50

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 
On a somewhat random (and more positive note), the city of Atlanta is definitely one of the most Segway friendly cities I've been to yet. Especially at the hotels, where the people working there encouraged me to ride it.

And while on the topic of environmental sustainability issues, here is something that I believe needs to be addressed for next year's Championship Event: recycle bins. Maybe it's because I've grown up my entire life in the Northeast, where our deposit programs and other recycling measures usually ensure stuff gets recycled anyway, but I found the lack of recycle bins in Atlanta to be annoying.

A few strategically placed can/bottle recycle bins, along with some paper recycling ones in the pits would be a good idea. Even a scrap metal bin in the pits for all those bits and pieces of broken robot parts might be a good idea.

Koko Ed 24-04-2008 06:49

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CzarValvador (Post 741128)
My only issue is the location.

A place where some guy was pestering us because he wanted to give us the tour of the "underground", doesn't seem to be a good place to have a bunch of highschoolers and Lego League kids.

The Atlanta dome is amazing and all, but Atlanta itself...

Over the years one of the bigger issue I've had is the Atlanta bashing.
So there's homeless people. So there is crime.
Name me one place in America. In the world where there is not crime, poverty and homeless people.
And don't give me the "we can all go back to Disney thing because contrary to popular belief not every team could afford to stay on the Disney campus and had to actually stay out in the "real world".
The bashing reeks of elitism and worse things that I thought smart people like us would be above.

GeorgeTheEng 24-04-2008 07:25

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 
I know this may seem somewhat readical, but FIRST considers the opening ceremonies on Friday to be the "FIRST Championship Welcome". If that is true, they should give some consideration to doing them at like noon on Thurs. By Friday morning FLL and FTC are half over. It's no longer a welcome.

It's just a thought. At the same time I have to congratulate FIRST on integrating the other programs into what has historically been an FRC focused event.

GaryVoshol 24-04-2008 07:36

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GeorgeTheEng (Post 742033)
I know this may seem somewhat readical, but FIRST considers the opening ceremonies on Friday to be the "FIRST Championship Welcome". If that is true, they should give some consideration to doing them at like noon on Thurs. By Friday morning FLL and FTC are half over. It's no longer a welcome.

It's just a thought. At the same time I have to congratulate FIRST on integrating the other programs into what has historically been an FRC focused event.

I know you mean well, but I hope they don't do opening ceremonies on Thursday. To do that, FLL and FTC would have to interrupt their Thurs schedules to accomodate the opening. Including moving the FLL tables off Einstein and then back on again.

FLL had it's own opening ceremonies Thursday morning before their practice and judging sessions started. I presume FTC had one as well, or could have one if they wanted.

Rick TYler 24-04-2008 10:04

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol (Post 742034)
FLL had its own opening ceremonies Thursday morning before their practice and judging sessions started. I presume FTC had one as well, or could have one if they wanted.

Yep, Dean, Woodie, and Ken Johnson spoke at the FTC opening.

Bob Steele 24-04-2008 14:49

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dlavery (Post 741371)
I guess I just don't understand what the objection is here. What exactly is unfair?

Even with the speeches, award presentations, and alternating division matches, the time between consecutive matches for any of the alliances that make it to the Einstein field is still considerably less than that experienced by every other team during the qualification matches. They have a shorter period between their matches to affect repairs, they can not return to their pits for parts or supplies, and (new this year) they are forced to work on their robots via flashlight in a darkened arena. So can someone please explain where they are getting an advantage?

Given the situation, if we have to choose between granting an extra three minutes to an Einstein-bound team to repair their damaged robot and then let them participate as a full competitor, or have the International FRC Championship be decided by having a damaged robot fail to make it to the field because we could not wait for them to complete a repair, I will always choose the former option.

-dave



.

I TOTALLY agree with you Dave. Einstein alliances all have the SAME time while on the field...How is their ANY advantage?
They have earned the right to be there ... and though it may seem selfish.... I want them ALL to be at their best so I can watch the play. As long as it fits within the constraints of the awards ceremony...giving them this time is a really GOOD thing.

waialua359 24-04-2008 16:20

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 
Other thoughts!
Einstein yearly proves how the game should be played.
I saw the rationale now of only having 2 trackballs. The key to winning in my opinion was what the 3rd robot did/didnt do.
Awesome defense by the 3rd bot could predict an outcome.
Had there been 3 trackballs, it would have only been an offensive showing which may not have been as fun to watch.
In both semifinals matches #1, defense by team 60 and 348 proved very pivotal. It's what allowed their teams to win the first match.

I was so proud of our team even though we lost to 968, 233, and 60 in Newton. As the 3rd robot that played defense, we did not allow PINK to hurdle at all for BOTH matches once we took "control" of that trackball.
We love the PINK team, and wished we could be teammates in the elim matches then playing against them. That's twice this season we played against them in elim matches. But, they are a great team and we love them a lot!!!!!:D

M. Mellott 24-04-2008 17:00

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 
While I completely agree that 7 qualification matches is just not enough, one thing to remember is that if we increase the number of fields, this will inevitably lessen the time between matches. While this is less of an issue at a Regional, there isn't a 10-minute-plus hike from the pits to the fields and another one coming back at any Regional, plus the additional time this year getting through some very crowded pits. This means less time to make repairs, less time to run through check lists. Putting alternate fields at the GWCC is a solution, but that brings up issues with scouting, additional camera crews, etc. There are pros and cons to every idea...

Nate Laverdure 24-04-2008 21:20

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by M. Mellott (Post 742266)
... one thing to remember is that ... [increasing the number of qualifying matches] will inevitably lessen the time between matches.

Food for thought: what if teams could "buy into" a certain number of "exhibition matches?" Of course, there shouldn't be an actual monetary cost to playing in an exhibition match, only an effect (as M. Mellot has delineated above) on the time between matches. These matches would allow teams to gain additional play time, as well as the opportunity to compete against teams in other divisions.

These matches could count for RS and MS, but not QS, which would mean that good performance in such a match would only slightly raise a team's rank, and bad performance wouldn't hurt their rank at all. There would be a limited number of exhibition matches; if demand for participation in these matches was found to exceed supply, a lottery system would have to be instituted to ensure fairness. Such a lottery would also ensure fair distribution across all four divisions. Self-policing by the FIRST community would ensure that teams honor their exhibition field time slots.

The exhibition matches would be played in a very visible location within the Dome, and they would serve as a focus point for all FRC competition during qualifying rounds. The exhibition field would be seen as an elite battleground; consistent winners on the exhibition field would be viewed favorably in the consideration of performance and design awards.

As written, this idea has a million problems with it, but it's interesting to think about at any rate.

Mark McLeod 25-04-2008 10:40

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by KathieK (Post 741896)
In order to stay on the daVinci Fields, they had to show me proof that they were indeed media people.

I was only took photographs, didn't coach anyone and I swear I stayed off the carpet!
I would like the option to send select pit crew out on the dome floor at times. They rarely see any matches and being on the dome floor can be pretty inspiring.


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