Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

"Those teams" have just as much right to recognition as the FRC teams. Less than 1% of teams even qualify for Atlanta - 81 teams there out of more than 10000 teams registered. FLL and FTC have been regarded as the ugly step-children of FRC by too many people.

I couldn't agree more, with both of you.

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

You've already been corrected about my past in FVC/FTC. I left an established FRC team to start a Explorer Post to do robotics for students who come from schools without teams. I picked Vex because it was less expensive than FRC, and we could build robots in a conference room at my employer. Finding out that FTC provides the same engineering experience as FRC was a surprising bonus. I would even go farther and say that in some ways FTC is a better introduction to engineering than FRC is -- there is more "hands-on" for every team member on an FTC team, and a lot more engineering exposure for the buck. (FRC is clearly superior when it comes to exposing students to fabrication and parts selection. The robots are also more obviously exciting than FTC robots. Although, any FRC'er would have been blown away by 74's ring sorter, where opposition rings went into a bin and their own went on to score on a goal. When one of our students and I spotted this in a match our mouths practically hung open. Nothing I've seen in FRC was more creative than this. Anyway...) It's pretty clear that rather than be an FTC skeptic, I consider myself a leading evangelist for the program. And, for the record, I adore FRC and think it's the right program for a lot of teams. I also don't care if anyone in FIRST or FRC thinks of FTC as the "junior" or "trainee" program. Unless the new kit really stinks -- I don't think it will -- FTC will have more than 2,000 teams by 2011, and will continue to grow faster than FRC for the foreseeable future. Write that prediction down, I'm looking forward to seeing it come true.

As for the Georgia Dome, it's FRC land. I would rather be next door in a larger FTC facility, with more intimate seating and a shorter hike to the pits. I see a day when the FTC and FRC qualifying are both done on Friday, and Saturday is dedicated to the Eliminations for both programs in the Georgia Dome -- with equal billing given to FTC. I think the smart people in FIRST recognize the need for a $1,500 alternative to FRC, and that the high school students in FTC are going through the same kind of process and getting the same benefits as FRC. Giving us our own venue with four divisions or more, and having eliminations in front of the big crowd in the Dome on the same day as FRC is the best of all worlds -- and would allow FRC to continue growing too. I would rather have 400 FTC teams in Atlanta than be in the Georgia Dome.

But that's just me...

Hey FTC teams, join us May 10 for the FIRSTWA Spring FTC RoboFest!

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

on moving the fields, i think this would be a good and bad idea, bad for people who want to watch the matches from the stands, but good for spacing.

move the fields sideways, and add another field on the back end. it would be cramped, but it would work, you could get queuing near the floor entrances of the dome. and this way, each division would work like GTR did in 2006, (this includes the special 12 alliance elimination rounds.)

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

You have entirely misrepresented my point. By saying that I have no idea what FLL teams need I meant just that -- I've never done FLL, my kids weren't in FLL, I've never attended an FLL event, and at Atlanta I spent all my time watching Edison, so I never saw an FLL match there. So when I said "I have no idea" what FLL teams would want, that's exactly what I was trying to say.

As for FTC, I've answered that in another post.

As for anti-FTC bias in FIRST, I keep looking for it, but I haven't seen it. The worst is an assumption of some current participants that FTC is a freshman program, or junior high program. In terms of disrespect, that's not so bad. I know that FIRST execs certainly don't act like FTC is a lesser program. Chief Delphi is certainly an FRC zone, but I don't think that is a negative against FTC, it's just that most posters here are FRC participants. In fact, CD is mostly an old-team FRC site, with a disproportionate representation of people from very successful teams. Nothing wrong with that, it's just important to realize that CD is not a reflection of all of FIRST. Most teams don't win regionals, win Chairman's Awards, or have $25,000-75,000 budgets, either.

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

I would like to remind everyone that this is the FIRST Championship Event, not the FIRST Robotics Competition Championship Event.

FLL and FTC both deserve their time to compete in the Georgia Dome. They work hard, and there is no reason they should have to "go play somewhere else so the big boys can play in the Dome". Kicking them out so FRC teams can get in a few extra matches seems like quite a selfish and ignorant decision.


As for the size of the divisions; these have remained constant for the past several years at 80-85 teams. I've been to the Championships for the past four years, and at least in 2005, there was 8 matches per team, and this seems like a good number to shoot for. If the fields are run very well, it should be possible to get in eight matches per team, though possibly extending Friday's matches another hour or so would be beneficial to account for field delays.

Making more fields in the Dome for FRC will not work for a variety of reasons, including space issues, audio noise pollution between fields, space for the crowds, and most importantly volunteers. It is really easy to get volunteers for positions like field resetting, but there are only so many "qualified" volunteers who can tackle all higher roles, like volunteer coordinating, announcers, emcees, etc.

Since six fields would not work very well on Einstein, eight would be needed. As such, trying to double the number of critical volunteers in Atlanta would be a nightmare.


For at least the next few years, the current configuration of the Championship Event will work. But once the number of regionals starts to exceed about 50 to 55, we'll probably need to look into "Regional Championships" which can feed into the Atlanta World Championships.

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

Unfortuantely, I am torn with this subject. While I still support 1 FRC team and volunteer at 5 FRC events, I support more than 3 FTC teams and volunteer at 12 FTC events. I absolutely love this program for its hands on engineering expereince by all the members of the team and the best part being, all for a relatively low cost. I see this program not only as a great stepping stone into FRC, but also as an excellent platform for a competition in and of itself. The program just seems a little bit more closer and personable than FRC (atleast when I announce and emcee at the events, that is). One of the things that I didnt enjoy at the Georgia Dome this year, was how separated I was from the audience ... and the lack of audience. Whenever I would ask a team where thier team was in the stands, they would always reply "oh, they are all at the FRC field right now" (this was even during the FTC elemination rounds when FRC was still in qualifications). Unfortunately, if we move it to the GWCC, I feel as though much of the presence we did have out in the stands would be gone, because people would have to walk even further to go from the beloved FRC stands to the bastardized FTC stands. I feel as though FTC would get even less exposure from not only people inside FIRST, but outsiders as well, as people would have to go a little bit further out of their way to see what the program is really about. Right now, it allows passerbyers to atleast see the program and a little of what it has to offer to the students, mentors, and volunteers.

Though I am intrigued by having the FTC split into multiple division in the GWCC, with only elimination rounds held at the dome (if a bit more prestiege was given to the alliances that made it there). By holding it in the GWCC, it may create a much closer nitch within the program, allow for the programs expansion, and give a similar feel and expereince as an FRC event. However, with that, you go into the issue of entirely setting the fields up and tearing them down for the FRC elimination, which is not something you can easily do in under an hour (combined time and definitely excluding match play, which im not sure FIRST would be willing to allocate).

Though without going into specific politics or bringing certain names in play, FIRST has so far exhibited some behavior of considering this program the ugly step child of FRC. This behavior wasnt as profound this year as it has been in the past, partly because FTC is an official intermediate program now (or due to the ... small spat between IFI and FIRST and trying to retain as much of the program as they can, away from IFI), but I still do expereince this mentality first hand.

I will also throw in my two cents on this subject as well. The Georgian Dome simply cannot handle 8 fields. It is not because of size constraints. Yes, you can squeeze 8 fields on the floor, but you create a logistical nightmare for the event coordinators, A/V crews, and volunteer coordinators, who keep the event running, looking, and sounding as good as they do. FIRST is currently looking at other venues to hold the event for next year, partly because they look at all options on the table, but also because we've basically outgrown the GA Dome! (I cant provide any further information).

Right now though, I just hope the political split between FIRST and IFI wont damage either the FTC or FRC programs too much and create a system similar to the "no child left behind act," FIRST style... which I am starting to see signs of...



Hope to see most of you guys next year. Night.

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

Instead of going to 8 divisions or 2 fields per division (which both require 8 fields), you can add fields and then have divisions share the extra fields equally, like they did with Einstein at Disney World.

Even adding just one field gives teams 25% more matches, or about 9 (with 3 extra matches). Two fields gets you 50% more, or about 11 (with 6 extra matches), etc.

The downside is spectators will sometimes have to move fields to watch their team, but it's one possible alternative.

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

Remembering the Epcot days, not all the FRC fields were in the same tent (some of the qualifying matches were rotated outside to Einstein). How about this scenario:

Eight FRC divisions of 50 teams each. By having less teams per division, they could play more qualification matches (say, 8 instead of this year's 7 matches). They would be able to end the qualifications earlier (say, 11 a.m. Saturday instead of noon), leaving more time for quarter finals (semiquarterfinals? what would you call 8 quarter finals instead of 4 quarterfinals?) between divisions later on. In other words, finish the division championships before lunch, then begin inter-division competition after lunch.

Half the FRC divisions, FTC divisions, FLL divisions would be in the Georgia Dome, and half would be somewhere in the GWCC (with added bleachers). Once division finals were completed, everyone would move into the Georgia Dome for inter-division competitions. FRC "semiquarterfinals" and quarterfinals would be played on 2 fields. The spectators would have to move around a bit, but I don't think that will hurt anybody.

By shortening the FRC qualification match schedule and moving up the division finals, we would still have time for the extra round of play with twice as many divisions, and still be able to end the awards "on time"--i.e., less than an hour late. :)

Finding enough volunteers and funding smaller divisions in a larger space would probably render this scenario unlikely at this point, but it might work in the future.

Speaking of ending the awards "on time"--Dean's first speech about the Founder's Award was 5 minutes. His second speech, including the Colbert video clips, was 16 minutes. His third speech introducing the X Prizes board of directors was 5 minutes. Total: about 26 minutes. (I forgot to time his speeches during the Opening Ceremony; showing the Bush Segway race doesn't count, anyway. ;) )

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

As far as the number of qualification rounds go, they are definitely not even close to the number needed. The rankings are off because there are not enough matches.
there are 85 teams, and the most number of teams that you get to play with/against is 35 teams.

I am not sure if this would be practical, but at least for the championship, it would be extremely beneficial if Wednesday was the practice day and there were two qualification days, and Saturday had less quals and more time for eliminations.


Just my personal opinion,
I don't like the randomness of the competition, If we redo the championship 10 times, 10 different alliances will win, and no matter how good a robot is, you need some luck to win.
I don't like seeing hundreds of hours spent by students and mentors not being recognized because of the randomness.

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

As long as there are alliances there will be randomness. Even if you play with and against every team in every possible combination there will still be luck involved. If a good robot is broken when they play with you you will move down due to luck; if instead they are broken when you play against them you will move up due to luck. Will the luck factor be reduced with more matches, probably, but can you ever eliminate it, definitely not.

This is true in nearly every competition, it takes a lot of skill and a little bit of luck (and sometimes lots of luck) to come out on top.

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

Sitting on stage was very odd and totally unexpected. I can tell you that I think that the chairman's being announced first was great. It does show that FIRST wants to make sure that everyone sees and appreciates the chairman's team, and that the chairman's award is taken seriously by FIRST. It was weird not having Engineering Inspiration mentioned next to Chairman's.
Another observation that surprised me was that sitting on stage, we could not hear who ever was at the mic. So we clapped when you all clapped and stood up when you all stood up. (we are looking for a video of the awards so we can see why we were clapping and why we stood up.) It was odd but funny. It was also very interesting to see the awards ceremony from the stage instead of the stands. The waves you guys made looked very cool.

I did have the urge to want to run into the confetti and glitter after the robot competition was over. It was very inviting.

I also liked how the matches were split with the awards.

I agree with the idea of restructuring the championship format from 4 fields to more. Each division is getting too large. As we increase the number of regionals we increase the need to come up with a new structure.

Overall I really liked the way the championship went. Tornado damage and space limitations or not, it went very well.

Having said that, as FIRST grows, so must the championship. We must be willing to try new things to maintain the specialness and accessibility to as many teams as possible. Reducing either the specialness and accessibility will reduce the effectiveness and grandeur of the event .

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

Here is an idea - in fact a GP idea to make sure our FTC and FLL brethren get their due.

We need 4 divisions spread across 8 fields.

Keep the dome just like it is. Change nothing there.

The 4 divisions and the 8 arenas

Newton(a) - Dome
Newton(b) - GWCC
Curie(a) - Dome
Curie(b) - GWCC
Archimedes(a) - Dome
Archimedes(b) - GWCC
Galileo(a) - Dome
Galileo(b) - GWCC

So if my team was in Curie I would be plenty happy if we toggled around and played some matchs in the dome and some in the gwcc.

The GWCC is huge, larger than many people realize. We had only 1 of 4 halls in the GWCC building C.

If you really want to see how big this place is just look here.
http://www.gwcc.com/eventplanners/floor_plans2.html

We had C1, B1, and B2.

IMHO if we could go back to last years deal with FLL, FTC, and FRC inside of C1 and C2 AND use B1/B2 to hold the (b) series courts then we would still have the 4 divisions, a lot more matchs, more satisfactory prelimins, and give the FLL and FTC some good GP without giving up many matches in the dome.

Right now I think we play 7 or 8 ? FRC matches in the dome, going forward it would be about 5 or 6 in the dome and 5 or 6 in the GWCC.

I would be perfectly happy with that.

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

On the subject of FTC, I thought that the volume from the FTC fields were way too loud. We could hear them over on Archimedes better than we could hear our own field. This is an easy fix, but it needs to be done.

I was very disappointed with the way the closing ceremonies/Einstein finals were run. The time between the first and second eliminations matches was something on the order of 20-25 minutes, which is just unreasonable. The teams had their robots on the field ready to go, and were just waiting. When they finally finished matches an hour and a half late, everyone was just rushed off instead of presenting the champions with their awards. As a member of one of the 2007 World Champions, I know that going up on stage to receive our award from Dean and Woodie in front of the entire Georgia Dome crowd was an incredible experience, and I'm highly HIGHLY disappointed that this year's teams were denied that.

I also feel that the CA presentation needs work. I understand the reasoning for moving it to the beginning of the ceremonies, but I feel that the way they presented it was anti-climactic. It can probably be fixed, but it needs retooling. I personally miss the confetti cannons and balloons for the CA at the end (although that would be a bad idea with the new order of presentation). Also, it seemed that the CA seats up on stage were actually not very good seats to be watching the matches or the awards from, but I wasn't up there so maybe I'm wrong.

Lastly, I mentioned this in this thread last year, I really believe that they should give out CA Honorable Mentions. Especially now that they're giving out the award at the beginning, I see no reason why they couldn't give the Honorable Mentions out immediately following.

That's all I can think of for now. Overall my biggest complaint is with the closing ceremonies, simply because they felt rushed and not quite as big of a deal as they should be.

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

I like some of the ideas in this thread. By adding two fields in the GWCC you could increase your matches by 50%. Just have each remote field shared by two divisions.

When we out grow that we could add two more fields.

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

I think that is a great idea. I'm against making more than 4 divisions because it thins out the competition too much. If a division is so thinned out that there are some tough regionals (like Midwest, GLR, etc) that are deeper and stronger, then what is the point of call it "championships"? If there are 8 divisions, you only play with 1 out of 8 teams, which would be saddening.

The downside of 2 fields per division is that scouting becomes twice as hard, especially teams with small scouting crews.

Another idea that could (theoretically) work would be to have 4 teams to an alliance. Having 4 teams per alliance would reduce the # of matches by 1/3, therefore letting everyone play more. The downside is that at some small regionals, the field to choose from would get very thinned out by the time the 4th team came into play. This may risk alliances choosing 2 scoring robots and 2 defensive robots, leading to a defensive lockdown (much like '07).