Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

Please tell us what you liked or what could have been done better, concerning the 2008 Championship's that ends today.

Overall, I was happy with the way the GA Dome & World Congress Center facilities were repaired and made usable for us following the tornado one month ago. Also, the weather was great even with a little rain Saturday morning.
Dave

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

Just one quick thing that is on the top of my head.

I understand that this has always been a problem and its hard to solve, but I think being behind on Einstein is a problem. One of the goals this year was to get get more people exposed to FIRST so they can see how amazing the program really is. Like the past few years, NASA was nice enough to let us show off the program on TV so the general public can see it. But, due to significant delays, we only got to the semifinals on Einstien before NASA cut it off. Think of all the people that didn't get a chance to see FIRST or got a bad impression (ie, "what is this unorganized program that cuts off before the finals?!"). I think it makes FIRST look bad and we missed a golden opportunity to show off our product to the general public.

I completely understand that its super hard to keep on time. Over 300 teams, hundred of volunteers, field errors and so on; there is just a lot that go wrong and cause delays. I just hope FIRST puts more importance on being on time. I did like that they changed some things in the past such as announcing the chairmans early before everyone rushes off to the finale. Hopefully they look more into this issue.

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

Definitely time. I was watching on the webcast and time was the #1 issue. For starters, plan for half the eliminations to go three rounds, and throw in a Timeout. If that doesn't give you a better estimate, I don't know what will. That way, we at least know what to expect.

That isn't venue fault at all, just procedure. (2 hours from the end of team intros to the end of semis hurts.)

I do agree that the changes seemed to help. No Robot Parade saved maybe 15 minutes of time. That is a good thing. Also, the good seats for the CA team during eliminations. I actually liked the changes, though I was surprised.

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

John, what do you mean by nasa cut off video in the semi finals. I saw the finals through nasa.

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

NASA TV ended at 6. Webcast didn't end.

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

OK.

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

It was disturbing when people started leaving after the EI last year.

This year the CA was done early and the EI last. That makes a lot more sense and give the winning CA team cool seats also. That made things a lot sweeter.

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

Championship was amazing. It was fun, amazing, confusing, frustrating, and joyful at the same time.

I just have one quick question...what *exactly* are ranking points.

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

RP have a formula...

Winner= 2 x loser pre-penalty score
Loser= own post-penalty score

Ranking score= SUM(winner RPs + loser RPs)/# matches played, without surrogate matches.

It's a strength of schedule.

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

To this webcast watcher, the event seemed to run very smoothly.

In an ideal would, I would appreciate if these two sites to be updated on a near-real-time basis during Einstein awards/finals/closing ceremonies. At the time of this post (10:10 EST), they have not been updated.

I would also like FIRST to publish alliance selection information on some kind of dynamic page as well. Tall order, but I think it would be a worthwhile addition.

Seeing the confetti come down for the Champion alliance (as opposed to coming down for the Chairman's winner) was disappointing. Dean can say all he wants about not losing sight of the program's true purpose, but this year's change (presenting Chairman's first) must have removed some of our focus from the true goal here.

Four years ago my team only went to one regional a year, and if we were not involved in eliminations, we always decided to leave before the final awards were presented. We just didn't know what the big deal was-- we thought we were just playing a game with robots. After some gentle urging, my teammates decided to start paying attention to all the Chairman's stuff, and now we're a three-time RCA winner. In my absence, they continue to find innovative ways to make positive changes in their community, but if the Championship competition starts to honor the champions more than the CA winner, they may end up diminishing their focus on the advancement of science and technology.

As a more trivial aside, I should also note that that the presentation of the Highest Rookie Seed award on Galileo was a bit rough (the MC ran out of filler as the team worked its way up to the arena floor). Perhaps a new system should be worked out for the presentation of this (very important, if underrated) award-- maybe the winning team could be asked to gather on the field before it is presented?

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

I didn't interpret the confetti as being part of the champion alliance thing, but simply as fireworks for the end of the whole gig. just my take though.

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

i did't like the ca first i think it played it down to much and the EI felt thrown in it should always come right before ca
i think dean's speech was very good i liked it alot
i really think it unfair not to give out the honorable mentions it hurt all the team going for ca by not giveing them feed back on what it takes
but all in all it all when real well
sincerely thank you to all those who give there time to first
-colin

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

I don’t know if this happen or not in the morning ceremonies but I though that FIRST should had made a little tribute segment of the opening/closing ceremony for Mike Wade and others who have passed away this season. This individuals have made FIRST and their communities what it is today and we should have honor them for a brief moment of time.

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

They gave Mike Wade the Volunteer of the Year award.

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

First of all, the dome and GWCC repairs were great - other than some visible plywood, it didn't seem to affect much.

They blocked off access to the second level of the dome. Why? Have you seen how many folks want to actually see the awards, speeches and einstein matches? They eventually had so many folks finding alternate ways to get to the second level, they eventually had to just give in. Which brings up another point - was it safe? Were there repairs needed up there?

Comparing it to my last trip to Atlanta back in '05, I have noticed a huge increase in people, teams, spectators, dignitaries, and such. It maybe either getting too big or they need to change the setup of the event. I think 72-75 teams per division is more appropriate.

I'd like to see either Friday qualifying rounds go to 6 pm and then finish qualifiers on Sat by 11am. Then Einstein would finish closer to 6 pm.

The Finale was awesome - but again felt crowded.

I liked having the CA first - it is the most important award and everyone pays attention to the first of anything.

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

The CA being announced first seemed wrong, but I did like the way they did awards between matches.
The reason I normally payed attention during awards (it can get long after a while) was for Chairmans.
Although the way they did it this year was pretty good.
I think regionals should also do the awards inbetween qualifing matches, just because it gives mechanics more time to work on their bots and some robots can't handle the match after match after match.
Regionals should leave chairmans for the very last though....

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

I kinda liked having CA being first. It was an interesting way to cement them in their new role in the FIRST community. Rather than have them parade through at the end, why not give them front row seats to the rest of the ceremony?

On a slightly less upbeat note, I don't much care for the style of one of the emcees. I can't remember his name, but he was the one that repeatedly said "Thats what I'm talking about BABY". I do hope that he is replaced next year by someone with more insightful commentary.

Overall, I was very happy. Those last matches of Wayne on Wayne action were amazing!

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

Sir Charles. A lot of people like him, but he could use some extra training in being useful as play-by-play.

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

For any of you that follow college basketball, Sir Charles is like the Dickie V. of FIRST. His energy and excitement are contagious, but if you actually take the time to listen to what he is saying you realize he isn't saying much of anything at all.

For me, the play by play doesn't always do much, but over a webcast the announcer is the only good way to convey the energy of the event. That puts me in the "like him" camp, but I do understand those that want more commentary and less "FIRST Overdrive BABY"

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

For A Heads Up, I'm Doing This On My Phone, On The Bus While The Championship Is Still Fresh On My Mind. Overall I'm Very Satisfied With The Championship. Two Small Things That Should Have Been Approved Were Communication And Judging. I Had No Idea When To Turn In All Of Our Safety Credits Until It Was Too Late. Pit Admin Said It Was Announced Over The Announcements And That A Safety Judge Was To Come By. Well... No Judge Came By To Tell Us And I Couldn't Understand Anything Over The Announcements. For The Judging, Only One Robot Judge Came By During The Whole Event, And She Really Didn't Want To Hear About Our Robot. Even Though I Don't Think We Would Have Won An Award For Our Robot Design, I Think It Was Not Fair That We Were Not Even Given A Chance. I Was Going To Explain Some Of Our Programming Techniques And Electrical Techniques, But She Said That She Didn't Need To Hear About Those. She Never Really Even Asked Much About Our Design, It Was More Like She Was Scouting Our Team, Asking About Our Drive Train And Our Method Of Hurdling.

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

Sir Charles had a great time during Aim High, boo-yaa, boo-yaa, boo-yaa

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

Having missed the webcast, does anyone know if the footage is stored any where? I'd like to catch up on some of it, esp. the Chairman's video.

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

This was the best run Championships in a long time, I think FIRST finally has a hold on how to work this venue with this many teams, it's not perfect yet, but it's close.

I like the idea of putting Chairmans first, and a mention at the end of the ceremonies would be nice too.

I like the fact the ceremonies were closer to ending on schedule, and I agree that making Friday last longer would help with that, then in addition try and control the Dean/Woody speeches would put us in a good position to finally have it end at 6:30.

Seemed that this year the wrap party seemed to end REALLY early, or was that just me?

I liked having scholarship row more in the middle of things, same with the Hall of Fame. And I also liked the choices in food this time around.

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

for those of you that d9idn't notice, the entire dome roof was tarped off, making the visuals a lot better during the competition.

i honestly think there should be more qualification matches, run qf's on Friday until 6-6:30, and run on Saturday until.... 2pm (think about it, if you put in 100's of hours into a robot, you should get the opportunity to use it. a conservative teams puts in at least 2000 man hours during build, why hold yourself to playing only 15:45...7 qf's minimum, add the extra 2 or 3 hours and fit in a couple of qf's per teams....also this means the Einstein finals would be in prime time, )

i'll post the rest as a note on facebook, too much to type here to give people an idea of my thoughts...

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

How about limiting each of the divisions to 50 robots? Over a quarter of FRC teams go to Atlanta, is that really necessary? Or how about moving FLL and FTC into one of the GWCC halls with bleachers (like the Seattle Regional) and having six FRC fields in the dome? I don't think the FTC folks got anything extra out of going into the Dome, and it would be nice to have three or four divisions of FTC instead of only two, for which we might have room in a smaller setting with more fields. I can't speak to FLL, since I have no idea what those teams would like.

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

200 robots... Hmm... 6*44 (counting next year's regionals)= 264. That means that 64 teams won't be able to go who would currently be allowed to. That's through qualifying. This doesn't include the HoF teams or the legacy teams or the current champions (another 15-20 teams). Minimum size to allow for current rules for next year, worst case (teams don't overlap and all teams go) would be 284, or 71 teams per division. You'd have to change the qualification structure.

Or add more divisions, which means more time to do eliminations, which means less time at the wrap party (for those who go). Better scheduling would be needed.

Good idea, but under the current structure, impractical. Better start thinking of how to convince the GDC and others at HQ to implement this.

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

Bear in mind, my point of view is wonky with this year. Your mileage may vary.

Good:
-I was pretty pleased with the state of things in the Dome and GWCC. It was a little cozy, but only the occasional plywood indicated anything was wrong.
-Chairman's first felt a little awkward, since it's always been at the end, but I dig it now that I've seen it done. Giving them the seats on stage is also pretty awesome and emphasizes to the uninitiated that Chairman's Is Serious Business.
-I appreciate the slimmed-down awards ceremony. It would've been murderous with the traditional complement of speakers.
-Whatever the Dome pays the staff that makes those brownies with the marshmallows found in the volunteer lounge, it isn't enough. They're marvelous.

Bad:
-I had a (non-team) media badge on Saturday, and was not entirely sure where they drew the line for media-credentialed people to stand (well, until I slightly overstepped that line on Archimedes). That's with five years of FRC experience; I shudder to think how a newbie would handle it. A diagram on the media badge sheet would be beneficial for all. Einstein gets a pass; the area there was clearly cordoned off and is about two signs from being perfect. (Thanks for parking right there after Finals 1, Thunderchickens!)
-Franklin, which was already a few matches behind after issues Thursday, started Friday an hour and a half behind after the opening ceremonies ran long. Einstein wrapped up over an hour late, even with the best efforts at slimming down the awards. This is not a new development, either. Extend the schedule a bit.
-While it isn't about the robots, it didn't quite seem like the final two alliances really had a proper chance to receive their hard-earned awards. It was a bit of a madhouse on the floor after the last match, so I doubt it could've been done this season, but it would be nice to find a way to make sure their award is presented well (especially if it remains that theirs are the two awards given last).

Overall, good job Atlanta!

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

I liked the fact that the CA was announced early, and then had the team 'showcased' for the rest of the day on the stage while the matches on Einstein and awards were given out.

I think the Team 842 was clued into their win beforehand. They had front row seats roped off in front of the stage before they were announced.

I also think that there will need to be additional playing fields. With 85 teams in each division and only 7 qaulifying matches, each one was critical. Next year there will be 3 new regionals with many additional rookie teams. This is making the number of teams per division approach 100. If additional fields are not the answer, then there has to be some knid of alternative.

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

How about the dome have not 4 but 6 divisions. It would make Einstein slightly longer but overall a better result with more matches for everyone.

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

So...umm...how is Einstein going to work? Might be easier to do 8 divisions... Or else two divisions get byes.

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

Accually it would have to be 8 divisions because then on einstein you would have 8 alliances and a full quarterfinal. Because six would mean 3 quaterfinal matches and 3 teams in semis, and that maybe a problem.

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

Not a bad idea:

- Move FTC to one of the GWCC halls and have four divisions. FTC is going to have more teams than FRC in the next two years, and a lot more in three years, so proper attention at Atlanta is going to be needed.

- Run FTC qualifications Thursday afternoon on through Friday night. Run FTC finals Saturday morning. This will allow FTC teams to get more qual matches and to catch the FRC finals on Saturday without having to kill Saturday morning.

- Have eight FRC divisions, with 48-52 teams each. This will allow more qualifications matches for each.

- Have two quarter-final fields running at the same time on Saturday.

- For the semifinals and finals, move to Einstein.

- Run later on Friday. It's tough on the volunteers (been there, done that) but it's critical for Saturday to run on time.

More FTC and FRC teams are accommodated (200 FTC to start, 400 FRC), and the schedule could be pretty much the same, except for FRC Friday.

I'm not married to any of these ideas, but it's interesting to think of alternatives now that the program is getting so large.

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

not to be rude, but no one should do much complaining on how anything was laid out. The buildings are still recovering from the tornado, and because of it there was one building shut down that is normally used (car show I believe). last year they had pits for everything (FRC, FTC, FLL) in the space used for this years FRC pits and car show combined (there was a temporary wall between the two this year). I cannot speak for anything besides FRC, but I think they did a great job of cramming everything into much less space.

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

We're talking for next year. I haven't seen any complaints about space this year. Not on venue, anyway.

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

my bad on the 6 divisions. definitely 8 would be great and would give teams a similiar number of matches to an average sized regional.

The amount of space in total was actually much larger than in previous years.

new space - 292,500 sq.ft.
old space - 212,900 sq.ft.

FIRST, and Atlanta did a GREAT job of pulling all this together !!

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

As a member of an FTC team I would say that Competing in the Georgia Dome is a great part of competing in Atlanta. I can take from your post that you have never been part of an FTC team. FTC is already looked down upon by FRC and some may say FIRST doesn't really care about FTC. Dean Kamen never comes into the FTC Pits. He only speaks for about 5 minutes at the opening ceremonies.

If FIRST were to move the FTC fields out of the Georgia Dome I my team would almost more than likely not attend the World Champs. Why would the team pay a $1000 entry fee, and an extra $1500 on transportation just to compete in what would just be another regional.

I'm jsut saying FTC teams do get a lot out of competing in the Georgia Dome. it's on of the few perks the FTC gets that FRC gets also.

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

Where was Dave Lavery at ? I didn't hear or see him at all during the webcast!
Was he with 116?

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

Go look at Rick's team number and signature. Then tell me he hasn't been part of an FTC team.

FTC is not looked down on by FRC, in fact, it is regarded as training for FRC. Or, a low-cost version of FRC.

As for moving FTC, the main reason it would happen is the FRC championship is too big or is split due to overcrowding.

Your comment about competing in the Georgia Dome reminds me of a comment made about members of some teams before 2003: "They're in it for the trip to Disney World." Do you really think that that is the end-all of FTC? If so, you have missed the point of both FRC and FTC and FLL.

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

Last year we were just 'visitors' to the competition and I noted this issue then. We attended this year with our team and I saw this frequently -

In our section (Archimedes) we had lots of people stand thru entire matches to talk to other people in their group.

The Georgia Dome has an awesome concourse to go and stand and chat and still keep an eye on the action.

At NHL games, you are not allowed to go back to your seat when the puck is in play...you have to wait at the top of the concourse until the whistle blows.

On another note - we parked in the garage all 3 days. On Friday, the gate on the 'crossbridge' was locked when we left for the day. We had to take all of our belongings to the roof of the garage, then back down to our car. Not sure why it was locked then but the bridge gate was open every morning and every other afternoon.

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

As usual Dave was everywhere, but this year he was also running around placing his fancy cameras in different places. I can't wait to see the results.

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

Both FRC and FTC have there pros and cons. FRC is bigger, it's been around longer. FTC is smaller, cheaper, has not been around as long. I have not missed the point of my FTC team. I love FIRST and all the aspects of it. I think it is a great learning, bonding, networking activity for every kind to be in. I', simply blown away by the why my FTC team has changed my life. And the lack of free time I now have since I started the team at my school.

If FTC is seen as a warm up for FRC Why cant FTC get the one are in the Georgia Dome. As of now the Divinci field in in the back of the Dome not mainly seen by the crowd. A Huge plus to competing in Atlanta is the factt hat you are on the same field that the Atlanta Falcons play on and you are surrounded by thousands of seats and thousands of people. This year the FTC and FLL pits were taken away from the FRC Pits. This made the FTC pits rather boring IMO. Upon entering the FRC Pits the talk to an FRC team my FTC team went down to Atlanta with. I noticed the buzz and crazyness in the room. It seamed MUCH more cramped than last year. but it was so exciting.

I'm just trying to get my point across. Saying that the FTC teams gain nothing by competing on the field, I think you are wrong. How would you feel if they stuck each division of FRC in a separate hall of the GWCC?

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

I'm paying attention to the FTC discussion. What I learned this past weekend, is that FTC deserves its time in the limelight to shine brightly and showcase the hard work, effort, and commitment of the students and the mentors to this program. I was in awe of the FTC teams at the Championship.

FIRST will continue to work to help improve all the competition aspects/events, I'm sure. There is always room for improvement and for flexibility in working with the growth factor of the programs. It's a good problem to have.

Several students and college mentors found their way over to the FTC and FLL pits and were astounded at what they saw. Each said that they remembered when they were on teams and could not believe the size of the pits and how awesome they were. It was pretty spectacular.

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

Agreed - it's not like it's a secret as to who it is...
This I agree with enthusiastically. 85 or so teams is just too many, it always always always runs late. As discussed, 8 divisions - but can 8 fields be fit onto the floor of the dome? Yes, but only if Einstein is used. 2 along the straights, two along each end, and better sound systems to maintain audio separation.

I also agree with other suggestions, like some qual matches on Thursday, more time on Friday, etc.

Sure, there are some logistical issues - twice as many volunteers for one - but that's solveable.

Don

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

I'd go anyway, if I could. It's not the location, it's the event. Would you go hang out in a drafty blimp hangar because there's a FIRST event going on there or because it's a blimp hangar? (SVR--then the California Regional--in 1999) I kind of think you're in this to be on the GA Dome floor--at least that's the impression I get from your posts.

The reason FTC is in the back is that's about the only place they can put it. Einstein (main stage) is front and center because it's where the show happens. FLL goes on there because they can pick up easily--move a dozen tables and put the field in. The corners are FRC to allow for seating. Would you rather FTC go between Einstein and, say, Curie? And fight for seating with the FRC teams? I think not!

The problem is, both FRC and FTC are growing rapidly. FRC has 84 teams per division this year. If they keep adding regionals, they won't have room for all the current teams to play. So they'll need to a) make more divisions (more fields) or b) increase the size of the divisions, which are already pretty much maxed out. (GTR has had a 2-field regional in the past. They had about the same number of teams as ONE division, as I recall.) So make more divisions, which may happen anyway to allow more matches.

Now where do you put those other divisions? On the floor, of course. There's room. But either FRC or FTC will need to move something. FTC is more easily moved, due to the fact that they can be in pretty much any height of room and FRC needs 20 feet or more in a typical year. So FTC would need to move elsewhere.

Now, if FTC were moved, they would probably wind up in the GWCC. There's a lot of room there--enough for more than two fields (and thus, more than two divisions). Not in the pits, necessarily, but in the GWCC. So FTC gets more matches, more teams, and presumably, more fun.

And the reason the FTC and FLL pits were separate this year was tornado damage and having to share space with a car show.

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

I am very pleased overall with the competition. The idea of having more division fields is a wonderful idea, especially with the intent to decrease the number of teams per field. In newton, there were 85 teams and it was almost impractical for our team to scout and be scouted next to such well known teams as effectively as we have before.

As for the announcement of CA, I'm one that wishes they would of still waited till the end to announce it. I guess it goes along with "saving the best for last" and giving the CA special emphasis. The entire competition, in a way, leads up to finals, and ultimately, the chairmans award. Congratulations to both MOE and this years winners!

Side note, I loved the location of the hall of fame in the lobby along with the scholarship and vender row!

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

"Those teams" have just as much right to recognition as the FRC teams. Less than 1% of teams even qualify for Atlanta - 81 teams there out of more than 10000 teams registered. FLL and FTC have been regarded as the ugly step-children of FRC by too many people.

I couldn't agree more, with both of you.

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

You've already been corrected about my past in FVC/FTC. I left an established FRC team to start a Explorer Post to do robotics for students who come from schools without teams. I picked Vex because it was less expensive than FRC, and we could build robots in a conference room at my employer. Finding out that FTC provides the same engineering experience as FRC was a surprising bonus. I would even go farther and say that in some ways FTC is a better introduction to engineering than FRC is -- there is more "hands-on" for every team member on an FTC team, and a lot more engineering exposure for the buck. (FRC is clearly superior when it comes to exposing students to fabrication and parts selection. The robots are also more obviously exciting than FTC robots. Although, any FRC'er would have been blown away by 74's ring sorter, where opposition rings went into a bin and their own went on to score on a goal. When one of our students and I spotted this in a match our mouths practically hung open. Nothing I've seen in FRC was more creative than this. Anyway...) It's pretty clear that rather than be an FTC skeptic, I consider myself a leading evangelist for the program. And, for the record, I adore FRC and think it's the right program for a lot of teams. I also don't care if anyone in FIRST or FRC thinks of FTC as the "junior" or "trainee" program. Unless the new kit really stinks -- I don't think it will -- FTC will have more than 2,000 teams by 2011, and will continue to grow faster than FRC for the foreseeable future. Write that prediction down, I'm looking forward to seeing it come true.

As for the Georgia Dome, it's FRC land. I would rather be next door in a larger FTC facility, with more intimate seating and a shorter hike to the pits. I see a day when the FTC and FRC qualifying are both done on Friday, and Saturday is dedicated to the Eliminations for both programs in the Georgia Dome -- with equal billing given to FTC. I think the smart people in FIRST recognize the need for a $1,500 alternative to FRC, and that the high school students in FTC are going through the same kind of process and getting the same benefits as FRC. Giving us our own venue with four divisions or more, and having eliminations in front of the big crowd in the Dome on the same day as FRC is the best of all worlds -- and would allow FRC to continue growing too. I would rather have 400 FTC teams in Atlanta than be in the Georgia Dome.

But that's just me...

Hey FTC teams, join us May 10 for the FIRSTWA Spring FTC RoboFest!

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

on moving the fields, i think this would be a good and bad idea, bad for people who want to watch the matches from the stands, but good for spacing.

move the fields sideways, and add another field on the back end. it would be cramped, but it would work, you could get queuing near the floor entrances of the dome. and this way, each division would work like GTR did in 2006, (this includes the special 12 alliance elimination rounds.)

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

You have entirely misrepresented my point. By saying that I have no idea what FLL teams need I meant just that -- I've never done FLL, my kids weren't in FLL, I've never attended an FLL event, and at Atlanta I spent all my time watching Edison, so I never saw an FLL match there. So when I said "I have no idea" what FLL teams would want, that's exactly what I was trying to say.

As for FTC, I've answered that in another post.

As for anti-FTC bias in FIRST, I keep looking for it, but I haven't seen it. The worst is an assumption of some current participants that FTC is a freshman program, or junior high program. In terms of disrespect, that's not so bad. I know that FIRST execs certainly don't act like FTC is a lesser program. Chief Delphi is certainly an FRC zone, but I don't think that is a negative against FTC, it's just that most posters here are FRC participants. In fact, CD is mostly an old-team FRC site, with a disproportionate representation of people from very successful teams. Nothing wrong with that, it's just important to realize that CD is not a reflection of all of FIRST. Most teams don't win regionals, win Chairman's Awards, or have $25,000-75,000 budgets, either.

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

I would like to remind everyone that this is the FIRST Championship Event, not the FIRST Robotics Competition Championship Event.

FLL and FTC both deserve their time to compete in the Georgia Dome. They work hard, and there is no reason they should have to "go play somewhere else so the big boys can play in the Dome". Kicking them out so FRC teams can get in a few extra matches seems like quite a selfish and ignorant decision.


As for the size of the divisions; these have remained constant for the past several years at 80-85 teams. I've been to the Championships for the past four years, and at least in 2005, there was 8 matches per team, and this seems like a good number to shoot for. If the fields are run very well, it should be possible to get in eight matches per team, though possibly extending Friday's matches another hour or so would be beneficial to account for field delays.

Making more fields in the Dome for FRC will not work for a variety of reasons, including space issues, audio noise pollution between fields, space for the crowds, and most importantly volunteers. It is really easy to get volunteers for positions like field resetting, but there are only so many "qualified" volunteers who can tackle all higher roles, like volunteer coordinating, announcers, emcees, etc.

Since six fields would not work very well on Einstein, eight would be needed. As such, trying to double the number of critical volunteers in Atlanta would be a nightmare.


For at least the next few years, the current configuration of the Championship Event will work. But once the number of regionals starts to exceed about 50 to 55, we'll probably need to look into "Regional Championships" which can feed into the Atlanta World Championships.

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

Unfortuantely, I am torn with this subject. While I still support 1 FRC team and volunteer at 5 FRC events, I support more than 3 FTC teams and volunteer at 12 FTC events. I absolutely love this program for its hands on engineering expereince by all the members of the team and the best part being, all for a relatively low cost. I see this program not only as a great stepping stone into FRC, but also as an excellent platform for a competition in and of itself. The program just seems a little bit more closer and personable than FRC (atleast when I announce and emcee at the events, that is). One of the things that I didnt enjoy at the Georgia Dome this year, was how separated I was from the audience ... and the lack of audience. Whenever I would ask a team where thier team was in the stands, they would always reply "oh, they are all at the FRC field right now" (this was even during the FTC elemination rounds when FRC was still in qualifications). Unfortunately, if we move it to the GWCC, I feel as though much of the presence we did have out in the stands would be gone, because people would have to walk even further to go from the beloved FRC stands to the bastardized FTC stands. I feel as though FTC would get even less exposure from not only people inside FIRST, but outsiders as well, as people would have to go a little bit further out of their way to see what the program is really about. Right now, it allows passerbyers to atleast see the program and a little of what it has to offer to the students, mentors, and volunteers.

Though I am intrigued by having the FTC split into multiple division in the GWCC, with only elimination rounds held at the dome (if a bit more prestiege was given to the alliances that made it there). By holding it in the GWCC, it may create a much closer nitch within the program, allow for the programs expansion, and give a similar feel and expereince as an FRC event. However, with that, you go into the issue of entirely setting the fields up and tearing them down for the FRC elimination, which is not something you can easily do in under an hour (combined time and definitely excluding match play, which im not sure FIRST would be willing to allocate).

Though without going into specific politics or bringing certain names in play, FIRST has so far exhibited some behavior of considering this program the ugly step child of FRC. This behavior wasnt as profound this year as it has been in the past, partly because FTC is an official intermediate program now (or due to the ... small spat between IFI and FIRST and trying to retain as much of the program as they can, away from IFI), but I still do expereince this mentality first hand.

I will also throw in my two cents on this subject as well. The Georgian Dome simply cannot handle 8 fields. It is not because of size constraints. Yes, you can squeeze 8 fields on the floor, but you create a logistical nightmare for the event coordinators, A/V crews, and volunteer coordinators, who keep the event running, looking, and sounding as good as they do. FIRST is currently looking at other venues to hold the event for next year, partly because they look at all options on the table, but also because we've basically outgrown the GA Dome! (I cant provide any further information).

Right now though, I just hope the political split between FIRST and IFI wont damage either the FTC or FRC programs too much and create a system similar to the "no child left behind act," FIRST style... which I am starting to see signs of...



Hope to see most of you guys next year. Night.

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

Instead of going to 8 divisions or 2 fields per division (which both require 8 fields), you can add fields and then have divisions share the extra fields equally, like they did with Einstein at Disney World.

Even adding just one field gives teams 25% more matches, or about 9 (with 3 extra matches). Two fields gets you 50% more, or about 11 (with 6 extra matches), etc.

The downside is spectators will sometimes have to move fields to watch their team, but it's one possible alternative.

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

Remembering the Epcot days, not all the FRC fields were in the same tent (some of the qualifying matches were rotated outside to Einstein). How about this scenario:

Eight FRC divisions of 50 teams each. By having less teams per division, they could play more qualification matches (say, 8 instead of this year's 7 matches). They would be able to end the qualifications earlier (say, 11 a.m. Saturday instead of noon), leaving more time for quarter finals (semiquarterfinals? what would you call 8 quarter finals instead of 4 quarterfinals?) between divisions later on. In other words, finish the division championships before lunch, then begin inter-division competition after lunch.

Half the FRC divisions, FTC divisions, FLL divisions would be in the Georgia Dome, and half would be somewhere in the GWCC (with added bleachers). Once division finals were completed, everyone would move into the Georgia Dome for inter-division competitions. FRC "semiquarterfinals" and quarterfinals would be played on 2 fields. The spectators would have to move around a bit, but I don't think that will hurt anybody.

By shortening the FRC qualification match schedule and moving up the division finals, we would still have time for the extra round of play with twice as many divisions, and still be able to end the awards "on time"--i.e., less than an hour late. :)

Finding enough volunteers and funding smaller divisions in a larger space would probably render this scenario unlikely at this point, but it might work in the future.

Speaking of ending the awards "on time"--Dean's first speech about the Founder's Award was 5 minutes. His second speech, including the Colbert video clips, was 16 minutes. His third speech introducing the X Prizes board of directors was 5 minutes. Total: about 26 minutes. (I forgot to time his speeches during the Opening Ceremony; showing the Bush Segway race doesn't count, anyway. ;) )

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

As far as the number of qualification rounds go, they are definitely not even close to the number needed. The rankings are off because there are not enough matches.
there are 85 teams, and the most number of teams that you get to play with/against is 35 teams.

I am not sure if this would be practical, but at least for the championship, it would be extremely beneficial if Wednesday was the practice day and there were two qualification days, and Saturday had less quals and more time for eliminations.


Just my personal opinion,
I don't like the randomness of the competition, If we redo the championship 10 times, 10 different alliances will win, and no matter how good a robot is, you need some luck to win.
I don't like seeing hundreds of hours spent by students and mentors not being recognized because of the randomness.

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

As long as there are alliances there will be randomness. Even if you play with and against every team in every possible combination there will still be luck involved. If a good robot is broken when they play with you you will move down due to luck; if instead they are broken when you play against them you will move up due to luck. Will the luck factor be reduced with more matches, probably, but can you ever eliminate it, definitely not.

This is true in nearly every competition, it takes a lot of skill and a little bit of luck (and sometimes lots of luck) to come out on top.

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

Sitting on stage was very odd and totally unexpected. I can tell you that I think that the chairman's being announced first was great. It does show that FIRST wants to make sure that everyone sees and appreciates the chairman's team, and that the chairman's award is taken seriously by FIRST. It was weird not having Engineering Inspiration mentioned next to Chairman's.
Another observation that surprised me was that sitting on stage, we could not hear who ever was at the mic. So we clapped when you all clapped and stood up when you all stood up. (we are looking for a video of the awards so we can see why we were clapping and why we stood up.) It was odd but funny. It was also very interesting to see the awards ceremony from the stage instead of the stands. The waves you guys made looked very cool.

I did have the urge to want to run into the confetti and glitter after the robot competition was over. It was very inviting.

I also liked how the matches were split with the awards.

I agree with the idea of restructuring the championship format from 4 fields to more. Each division is getting too large. As we increase the number of regionals we increase the need to come up with a new structure.

Overall I really liked the way the championship went. Tornado damage and space limitations or not, it went very well.

Having said that, as FIRST grows, so must the championship. We must be willing to try new things to maintain the specialness and accessibility to as many teams as possible. Reducing either the specialness and accessibility will reduce the effectiveness and grandeur of the event .

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

Here is an idea - in fact a GP idea to make sure our FTC and FLL brethren get their due.

We need 4 divisions spread across 8 fields.

Keep the dome just like it is. Change nothing there.

The 4 divisions and the 8 arenas

Newton(a) - Dome
Newton(b) - GWCC
Curie(a) - Dome
Curie(b) - GWCC
Archimedes(a) - Dome
Archimedes(b) - GWCC
Galileo(a) - Dome
Galileo(b) - GWCC

So if my team was in Curie I would be plenty happy if we toggled around and played some matchs in the dome and some in the gwcc.

The GWCC is huge, larger than many people realize. We had only 1 of 4 halls in the GWCC building C.

If you really want to see how big this place is just look here.
http://www.gwcc.com/eventplanners/floor_plans2.html

We had C1, B1, and B2.

IMHO if we could go back to last years deal with FLL, FTC, and FRC inside of C1 and C2 AND use B1/B2 to hold the (b) series courts then we would still have the 4 divisions, a lot more matchs, more satisfactory prelimins, and give the FLL and FTC some good GP without giving up many matches in the dome.

Right now I think we play 7 or 8 ? FRC matches in the dome, going forward it would be about 5 or 6 in the dome and 5 or 6 in the GWCC.

I would be perfectly happy with that.

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

On the subject of FTC, I thought that the volume from the FTC fields were way too loud. We could hear them over on Archimedes better than we could hear our own field. This is an easy fix, but it needs to be done.

I was very disappointed with the way the closing ceremonies/Einstein finals were run. The time between the first and second eliminations matches was something on the order of 20-25 minutes, which is just unreasonable. The teams had their robots on the field ready to go, and were just waiting. When they finally finished matches an hour and a half late, everyone was just rushed off instead of presenting the champions with their awards. As a member of one of the 2007 World Champions, I know that going up on stage to receive our award from Dean and Woodie in front of the entire Georgia Dome crowd was an incredible experience, and I'm highly HIGHLY disappointed that this year's teams were denied that.

I also feel that the CA presentation needs work. I understand the reasoning for moving it to the beginning of the ceremonies, but I feel that the way they presented it was anti-climactic. It can probably be fixed, but it needs retooling. I personally miss the confetti cannons and balloons for the CA at the end (although that would be a bad idea with the new order of presentation). Also, it seemed that the CA seats up on stage were actually not very good seats to be watching the matches or the awards from, but I wasn't up there so maybe I'm wrong.

Lastly, I mentioned this in this thread last year, I really believe that they should give out CA Honorable Mentions. Especially now that they're giving out the award at the beginning, I see no reason why they couldn't give the Honorable Mentions out immediately following.

That's all I can think of for now. Overall my biggest complaint is with the closing ceremonies, simply because they felt rushed and not quite as big of a deal as they should be.

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

I like some of the ideas in this thread. By adding two fields in the GWCC you could increase your matches by 50%. Just have each remote field shared by two divisions.

When we out grow that we could add two more fields.

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

I think that is a great idea. I'm against making more than 4 divisions because it thins out the competition too much. If a division is so thinned out that there are some tough regionals (like Midwest, GLR, etc) that are deeper and stronger, then what is the point of call it "championships"? If there are 8 divisions, you only play with 1 out of 8 teams, which would be saddening.

The downside of 2 fields per division is that scouting becomes twice as hard, especially teams with small scouting crews.

Another idea that could (theoretically) work would be to have 4 teams to an alliance. Having 4 teams per alliance would reduce the # of matches by 1/3, therefore letting everyone play more. The downside is that at some small regionals, the field to choose from would get very thinned out by the time the 4th team came into play. This may risk alliances choosing 2 scoring robots and 2 defensive robots, leading to a defensive lockdown (much like '07).

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

This is a good idea and all but that is assuming that we could get all the space requried for it. I do not any of the years we have been in Atlanta there wasn't some other kind of show going on. I would love to have the whole place to ourselves so we could have more matches but from the past it seems unlikely.

Now for what I thought of Atlanta. The only problem we had trouble with match Qing was the first match but that is understandable. Even though the tornado came through you really weren't able to tell besides the plywood but thats besides the point. The reffin during the matches in our division was great, thanks refs. The exhibit of the new control system was pretty cool, looks like it will be fun. The Finale was great this year. The food seemed a little less cold to me this year but I ate pretty late. I think the best part of the Finale, aside from the Fireworks, was the karaoke. This year was the best experience I have had in Atlanta yet. Lets hope that next year is just as good if not better. Also thank you to whoever returned my bag to 816s pits, it had all our beads in it.

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

Sorry if I put words into your post. I've worked with FLL in Atlanta for the last 3 years, and it seems that whenever FRC needs something, FLL is pushed. Examples: We had to remove all the FLL tables from Einstein Thursday afternoon following practice rounds - just so the FRC referees could sit on Einstein during opening ceremonies. Then we had only 1/2 an hour to move all them back onto Einstein for our rounds, having to shoo the VIP's out of the way. (By the way, thanks to the teams in Galileo blue queuing that helped us carry the tables over.) The FLL judges and referees did not get reserved seating during opening ceremonies, even though we had to be on the field immediately afterward. I will admit that FTC and FLL got some decent recognition during ceremonies this year.

On Einstein for FLL matches, the sound "pollution" from Galileo and Curie made it very hard to hear what we were doing. We had at least one failed start because the teams couldn't hear. Remember, FLL has to push a button to get them started, it's not automatic.

Again, the noise overflow from one field to the other would be extremely annoying.

I like the idea of somehow adding another field or two, shared between the divisions, if space could be found somewhere and reasonable viewing areas could be arranged. Scheduling would be just a little bit more complex, but it could be done. Teams would have to pay close attention to where they were to queue up. I'm just not sure where it could be done.

With more and more regionals being set up, something will have to be done in the future. We've only got a couple more years of having open registration for the Championships; after that, only regional winners will have slots to go. If the program gets any bigger after that, we will have to go to a District/Regional/Championship 3-tier model.

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

There has been discussion on various thread about sound levels at the regionals and the Championship event.

We have taken data at Atlanta and you can view some of it here:

http://www.kellrobotics.org/files/Sound_2008.pdf

In the future we will be logging as much data as possible at the Championship and at least two or three regionals.

Roughly speaking, the events runs in the mid 80 dbA. Large crowd clapping and excitement pushes the number to 100 dbA (which doesn't have a volume control)

There has been some instances of music levels approaching 90 dbA but generally below.

Anecdotal evidence on the regionals is sketchy but indicates inconsistent results across the system with some regionals in good shape and others clearly exceeding the limit so much so you don't need a meter to make that determination.

Re: Let Everybody Compete On The Big Stage
 

I certainly agree with the above statements. Everybody needs to have the chance to compete on the big stage. Each group that makes it to the Championship event, FLL, FTC & FRC all work hard on their robots and deserve to be recognized.

Concerning having more space available for FRC, I think it is possible that in 2011 the Championship event may be held in another city. Perhaps the next venue will have even more floor space available than at the GA Dome.

The dates for Championship's in 2009 are April 15-18 and the dates in 2010 are April 14-17.

Any discussion as to where you think the Championship's should be held beyond 2010 should be directed here however.
Dave

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

Definitely do not want the Whole place. That is 3,900,000 sq.ft. we only need under 10% of that.

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

Just one thing to add in terms of having FLL/FTC/FRC under one roof (one really big roof)-

Keep in mind that the national competition is as much of a showcase of the entire first program to sponsors/potential sponsors/government officials as much as anything else, that's why governers, CEO's and such are well represented at the event. Having all programs competing under one roof allow for easy access and grasp of the scope of first by visitors. The additional comment would be as new regionals are being added, the number of teams participating will increase, so there will need to be a solution in one form or another...

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

In addition to showing GP to FLL and FTC, the showcasing is another feature of the A-B plan I outlined above.

The showcase still works. Recently in Atlanta we didn't really focus on the robot competition because our design, while reliable was simply not competitive. We spent about 75% of our efforts working to promote FIRST, providing a lot of student tour guides and moving guests and VIPs around.

So from my experience in the program I think that the VIP's that are there would not be aware of nor really care that there is (B) court activity going on the the back room. There experience would not be impacted.

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

I seriously hope ebarkers idea of 4 divisions with 8 fields gains notice from the FIRST executive.

It would allow the competition to grow and remain familiar to those of us who've "done it for years".

The scouting issue mentioned could be solved by tag teaming the two fields schedules so that they interleave and using the video screen for the other field.

Intro's could be shorter, saving the endless boo-yaa's we've all endured because another match would be ready to go.

I found the new finals a bit of a double edged sword though.

As a competitor who has run out of time for repairs in these high pressure moments I'm sure that any of the teams who needed time to recoop <sic> certainly appreciated it.

As a spectator it would need to be edited for TV as I almost napped out waiting between matches.

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

Good:
-I think that we all owe a lot of thanks to those who worked on the Georgia Dome + pits area + all over atlanta, because despite all of the damage, were still incredibly hospitable and continued to allow us to hold the event. Even if the pit areas were apparently cut smaller, I couldn't really find anything to complain about.

-I agree with about almost everyone else on this thread about Chairman's being announced first, but maybe Engineering Inspiration be before finals instead so that people dont abandon it like Chairmans last year.

-I do like how the Hall Of Fame booths were moved. Based on previous experience, it would allow more display area, as well as be more open to the public seeing it is in front of the pits in oppose to being imbedded on the side of one of the entrances.

Bad:
-The college booths should have gone either another day, or longer. I was really hoping to stop by, but couldn't because of matches.

-Trash bins were hard to find. I know one day the closest one a couple aisles down was actually moved farther on Saturday. (I'm sorry if that complaint is a little petty, but for safety purposes, as well as time consumption, even an extra bin here and there would've been a lot of help.

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

A shadow hung over the Georgia Dome this year... Literally...

It was really dark in there with the black roof. Very different atmosphere than years prior... I believe the roof was covered to cover holes caused by the Tornado.

But I loved the blimps!!! Awesome!!!

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

Were you there in 2006? (Or was it 2005?)

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

I was there in '06. There was no covering that I remember.

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

I really like the highlights after each match on Einstein. All those matches were so good that it was good to see it a second time. I would like to see regionals adapt this, too. In between matches there seems to be nothing to really show on the scree and showing highlights from the previous match would give fans something to watch inbetween matches. If that is too much work to do for every regional after every match, I think showing the current rankings would also be cool and benifical. Anyways, the highlights after each match was a very nice touch!

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

Humm... I remember one year the camera was so finicky that the roof was covered to allow the cameras to operate properly. It wasn't 2007 and it wasn't 2004 (no camera). Might have been 2005.

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

They only two years they had the black cloth on the GA Dome roof was in 2005 and 2008; there was just the regular roof in 2004, 2006, and 2007.

The main reason behind the cloth in 2005 was for the CMUcam, which was not targeted at an active light that year, but rather a passive green target tetra. And for this year, it seems that they were impressed with how WPI has used climatic lighting at BattleCry@WPI for the past few years, and they wished to imitate it during the Einstein Finals. ;)

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

According to Steve Sargent, (Sargent productions) the black cloth covering the roof was left over from the cosmetics show from the week before the championships, same as 2005. It had nothing to do with the CMU cameras.

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

I would assume that the black fabric hanging below the outer white colored roof of the GA Dome, was done to allow First to control the lighting and make for a more intimate setting, if that can be done in a 71,000 seat stadium. You could not see upper deck rows above about row 10. I don't believe that the tarp had anything at all to do with any storm damage as the dome suffered very little roof damage.

This year was not the first time the black tarp was used at the GA Dome for the Championship's. It was also used in 2005.

Built in 1992, the Georgia Dome is still the largest cable-supported fabric roof in the world. Stretching more than 395,000 square feet, the Teflon-coated Fiberglas fabric roof is quite an engineering marvel and the roof fabric weighs just 68 pounds. For those interested in the technical aspects of the roof go here.

Dave

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

I agree - so I told them at http://www.gwcc.com/feedback.html

The staff was especially friendly this year.

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

I've been thinking a lot about the size of the Championships and the inevitable growth of teams. I agree with many that 8 FRC fields, probably won't work (I wish it could). Limiting the number of teams seems like a bummer since attending the championships is a huge motivation for many FIRSTers.

I guess that leaves one very viable solution and that is to design a game that extends the alliances to 4v4 or 3v3v3 . Doing so would most likely mean a larger field (40' x 80' - very doeable for the 4 fields that exist now) - can smaller regionals accomodate this? I think most can. Having 8 or 9 teams on the field at once would be quite a chaotic sight!! The new control system is clearly capable of this. In a 4v4 setup, each division could go to about 100 teams and you still get 100 matches per division and each team plays 8 matches.

So can anyone tell me why a change in the number of teams on the field for each match won't help solve some of these issues being discussed?

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

I thought championships went great this year. I had allot of fun and i believe that team 75 also had a blast.

I only have one suggestions for next year, a sundial system that FIRST can use to help que teams and send messages to teams to warn them if there is a back up in queuing like Friday morning. This would help teams make it on to the field on time and eliminate teams being in queuing for a long time. other then that one small detail i thought it was a well planed, safe, professional event.

Matthew Simpson
Team 75 driver

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

My ideas as to why those won't solve the matches problem:
Because with more teams per match comes more randomness, and a consequent decline in the quality of the rankings. By that, I mean you'll have more teams at the top of the rankings who don't really have the scoring power to have earned that spot, and who were just lucky with alliance pairings.

Plus it isn't a linear response in terms of matches. With more robots per match comes more teams carrying more robots through the same choke points on the side of the field. It'd take longer to set up the robots, for the field reps to ensure they're all turned on and aligned, and for teams to set up their OIs. So your match turnaround time will probably increase, potentially offsetting your ability to run more matches per team.

I love the idea posted above of having other fields within the GWCC. Even if you can't have B fields for all 4 divisions, maybe have 2 divisions share one field, and the other two share another. Even if only one extra field could be installed, you're still increasing capacity by 25%.

I like the idea of restricting champs to only those that have earned it that year. If a team wants to compete more in a year, they can raise money and go to a second regional. If a team wants to compete at champs, they have to both raise money AND perform. Championships should require as much, if not more effort to attend than attending a regional.

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

FIRST abandoned 1v1v1 because the 2 weaker teams would gang up on the strong team. I don't see 3v3v3 being much different, unless they somehow came up with a game that discouraged that.

I don't like 4v4 because it further reduces the contribution of one robot to the overall alliance. You may get more matches but the outcome of each match depends even more on your alliance partners, so it may make the rankings an even poorer judge of skill. (Edit: Same as what Bongle said)

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

Smaller emerging regionals would have a hard time not necessarily in accommodating the size, but there would be 1/4 queuing, 1/4 playing, 1/4 leaving the field, and only 1/4 left with time in the pits. As soon as you get to the pits, you'd have to turn around and get back in line.

I guess this comes down to accomodating regionals or accommodating the Championships.

This has probably been suggested someplace else before, but perhaps the winners from 5-10 regional competitions should qualify for a larger Super Regional in April. Winners of these would then earn their way to the World Championships in the early summer.

Something has to give as it seems the current model is beginning to be maxed out.

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

The black tarp is installed in the Georgia Dome every spring. It stays up throughout the summer, and is usually removed just before the start of football season. The primary reason for the tarp is to keep sunlight filtering through the translucent fabric of the roof from completely overwhelming the air conditioning system and heating the Dome to the point of being uninhabitable. The tarp is usually installed a few weeks after the FIRST Championship, but it may be installed earlier if other Dome clients request it. This year the Arbonne Cosmetics show, which preceded the FIRST Championship in the Dome, paid a hefty sum (you don't want to know how much) to have the tarp installed early to create the right "lighting mood" for their show.

From above, the tarp looks like this (taken while I was crawling around the catwalks above the tarp). You can also see the top rows of seats that are currently being replaced. They were scheduled for replacement prior to the tornado, and are not being replaced due to tornado damage.

-dave



.

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

I think that ~85 teams/div with four divisions each sending an alliance to Einstein will be the formula for the Championship for some time to come. Eight division fields and adding Einstein quarterfinal matches are just too much to accommodate from a space-time perspective (sorry for the physics pun) :P.

Conducting a set of four "super-regional" events prior to the World Championship is not practical since teams will require time to arrange travel and funding to attend.

As FIRST grows, the Championship event will have ever fewer "open registration" slots in order to accommodate the qualifiers (CA, EI, RA, and winners) of more regionals. The quantity of teams at the Championship will remain about the same, the quality will continue to improve. Eventually, maybe only regional qualifiers, hall-of-fame teams and prior year champions will participate in the Championship event. So, what will happen when FIRST has 100 regionals??

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

With 44 regionals next year and ~ 20 teams with a slot already, here's the math:
6 teams/regional*44 regionals +20=284 teams currently qualify through past performance/regional performance. (Next year)

So how long would it take to max out? Add 1 team per year (HoF addition) and run some numbers. I'm going to assume steady growth of 3 regionals per year. For the 2010-2012 seasons:
303
322
341
and the next year, we're over the current team limit. Or, how many more regionals will it take? At 3 a year, it takes 3 years, so 9-10 more regionals (after the 2009 season).

Not all teams will come. But, there still won't be a whole lot of room for non-qualifying teams.

So for the next 3-4 Championship Events, the current system would work. But after that, either a different qualification method (e.g. super-regionals that you get to through regionals) or more (or bigger) divisions would be necessary.

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

The problem is the randomness of the game and adding more teams to each alliance would make it more random. I rather a 2v2 or even each robot competing independently rather than alliances. the competition is strongly skewed toward the stronger teams. there are a few strong teams and lots of average teams and no matter how good you are, you need to get really lucky to win, and that is a major problem.

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

I studied the tarp work from my seat in Curie. It was excellent. I figured the installation would come at a very hefty price. Really amazing work. Thank you for this photo, Dave.

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

I haven't seen it mentioned, but I think the placement of the screens in the pits was pretty inconvenient. Having screens positioned such that they can't be seen from 90% of the pits seems pretty poor. I think positioning them back to back over the central display area would make it a bit easier for teams to see matches without having to worry about deserting the pits and missing the judges. Better still, place two screens at either end of the pits. I suppose this might lead to a little more loitering in the aisles of the pits, but honestly, I don't see how it could get much worse than it usually is anyways.

Also, I kind of like the idea of 6 divisions. I think 6 independent divisions is a better idea than 4 divisions with 8 fields. Mostly because of the scheduling and coordination nightmares inherent in two fields. I think it's a pretty safe assumption that an extra field only gets you somewhere between 50%-75% more matches, because the fields absolutely have to stay in sync at all times. You can't just dump teams on the first available field, because they need to know which field to show up on. And with the turnaround times for teams you'd be talking about, I don't think you could let the fields get more than 2 matches out of sync. Maybe just 1. So on the whole, I'd prefer 8 divisions to 2 fields per division.

Anyways, back to running Elims for 6 divisions. You do realize that Major League Baseball solved this problem for us about a decade ago, right? That's right, you could have two wild card teams. Determine them as you wish, but I would suggest a short round robin between two 3 alliance groups of finalists of the different divisions. I mean how often have we fretted about how strong Galileo is and how much of a shame it is that only one winning alliance could come out of it? How awesome would it be for a wild card team to rematch against the alliance they faced in their division. There are other solutions to the problem, of course. You could do the 3 alliance round robin of division champions and take the top two teams from each group. Heck, this would work well for an 8 division championship. Two 4 alliance round robins take 6 matches to finish, barring a tiebreaker match, and they could be played on parallel fields flanking Einstein. Which would be a lot faster than the minimum 8 matches you'd have to play for a single elimination playoff.

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

When GTR ran double-fields, each of your matches would indicate which field it was to be on (Pontiac field or Chevy field). The fields would alternate Pontiac-Chevy-Pontiac-Chevy so that while one reset, the other ran a match.

As for how much you increase playing-time:
When GTR ran double-field in 2006, they managed 124 matches in 435* minutes of venue time, for a length of 3.5 minutes of venue time per match. This includes introductions and 2m15s of play time, so that's pretty impressive.

At the Lone Star Regional in 2006 (biggest regional that was the same week that year), they managed 81 qualifying matches in 485 minutes* of venue time, for a length of 6.0 minutes per match.
*All end times rounded to next 15 minutes.

Edit: Looking again at the scheduling, my times are based off of the explicit times that teams were expected to show at the field, not when the matches actually happened. This means that this calculation only shows how much FIRST expects double-fields to increase play, not how much they actually do. GTR may have actually gone long that year (I don't remember) and LSR may have been ahead of schedule, which would throw off these calculations.

So based on that, we can say that FIRST expects double-fielding to increase match capacity by ~70%. If we say that they actually increase it by 50%, then that is still resulting in a very-good 11-12 matches per team at championships compared to the 7-8 they've gotten in recent years. Or maybe it ends with the competition ending on time. Would still require additional refs though, especially if the fields are split between GWCC and the dome.

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

Six teams per regional is a worse-case scenario. In reality, there are teams that will win more than one regional, or hall-of-fame teams, past champions, CA and EI that will also win one or more regional. That could prolong the inevitable change in the Championship qualification criteria or format.

On the other hand, if FIRST's growth rate increases (400 new teams next year?), the change may occur even sooner. Another thread discusses possible new venues: could a requirement on the facility be the ability to accommodate ~700 teams, eight division fields + Einstein??

FIRST Finale scheduling, water, and media troubles
 

I hope this post doesn't go unnoticed in this large thread.

My main suggestion for improving the Championship next year deals with the FIRST Finale on Saturday night.

As a member of an Einstein team, I was very disappointed that we did not get to participate in the Finale party. By the time we finished matches, awards, closing, and packed up our stuff into the robot crate and van, we only barely had enough time left to catch the fireworks. It takes some of the fun out of doing so well in the competition when you arrive at the party to find there is no more food, no more drinks, everything closing, and everyone leaving. We felt like "this looks incredibly fun. I think next time we might as well not bother trying to win, because you forfeit all this." Either the Finale needs to go until midnight (with food until then as well, at least for Einstein teams) or there needs to be a separate gathering (until midnight) for the Einstein teams.

I absolutely loved the ban and enforcement on banners and flags being brought into the dome. When people are anxiously trying to see every detail of every match, it is simply rude how many teams park a flag or banner right in front. Seriously people, have some respect for those sitting behind you.

I didn't really think the ban on bottled water entering the dome was proper. Affordable access to water is (or at least should be) a basic human right. Bottled water should not be monopolized at this type of event. It shouldn't take someone being poor, not being able to afford the dome's water, being denied their own, and passing out on the floor for dehydration to make someone realize that people need water without restriction. Let us take it in. We aren't going to buy your $3 bottle of water even if you don't let us bring in our own. It's just absurd. It doesn't do anyone any good.

Another thing, let us all remember that Dean's homework was to get media attention this year. While wearing my media pass on the Dome floor, I was repeatedly singled out and hassled (on the border line of physical harassment) by certain FIRST officials, when I was causing no trouble and they clearly had other more critical responsibilities. This is not at all proper. When teams spend as much as they do in this competition, they ought to have the right to a) see it, b) photograph it, and c) celebrate it (as mentioned above). For any official or volunteer to pull rank on the teams and spit out a "this is the way it is and you have no recourse and we'll throw you out if this happens again" is not a good thing for the future of this program. This program exists and succeeds in large because of the teams. They know what they are doing. Welcome them, listen to them, respect them, consider their complaints, suggestions, and ideas.

Finally, something needs to be done about the saving seats issue. On Friday morning, I encountered three students saving an entire two rows, aisle to aisle. I show up with only myself and my bag, take two seats total, am told to move, tell them I will if and when the rest of their team comes, and to my astonishment they moved my things moved for me and I got an the evil stare for the rest of the day. I was in disbelief. There is no reason single or a handful of individuals should not be allowed a close seat when dozens upon dozens are empty.

If you want the seats, put your people in them. Otherwise they are up for grabs. End of story.

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

The Championship should be air on basic cable or local TV so every one can see it. The last few years they broad cast the championship on NASA or just high lights on CNN. They should air it on ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX, or PBS.

Re: FIRST Finale scheduling, water, and media troubles
 

Amen. I get sick of explaining seat rules at regionals, and now I have to do it at Champs. I was especially concerned about a team that blocked the 25 best seats on Edison (from the first row back five rows) and didn't budge for two days, while using an average of less than half those seats at any given time. They were careful to leave a bunch of stuff on and around those unused seats, too, to guarantee no one else would sit there. It engendered a LOT of bad feeling from other teams.

Twice I was hassled about sitting down in a seat because it was "saved" -- once on Edison and once on one of the FRC fields. I hate to think how our guests would react to this. Maybe I'll volunteer to be "Official FIRST Seat Warden" next year.

Re: FIRST Finale scheduling, water, and media troubles
 

The business of banning flags explains a confrontation that occurred with our drive team (and several other teams, I suspect) with a member of security on Friday afternoon. He would not allow us to take our flag (on a flag pole) onto the floor of the dome. Other teams had their flags out there for the MC's in the early matches so, apparently, word came down from the top that flags waving around on the field before the matches were ruining the event for the folk in the stands. (Detect any sarcasm here?) The guard literally ran after one of our team members to force us to leave the flag behind. He then said wouldn't be responsible for watching the flag while we were in the dome. WHAT A CROCK! We torn the flag off of the pole, ungraciously dropped the pole on the floor and proceeded to our match. We recovered the pole after the match. On Saturday, we smuggled our flag onto the field to join the many teams with "illegal" flags on Galileo.

As far as saving seats, what's going to happen when the number of spectators grow significantly for FIRST events. I don't see how teams will be able to sit as a group (the drive teams and pit crews will need to fend for themselves to watch eliminations if they're not selected). This is something that FIRST will need to address soon, or things might start getting ugly. (Not all of the spectators will have a good grasp of GP).

Re: FIRST Finale scheduling, water, and media troubles
 

I guess I missed that ban. I'm not sure any event anywhere could sustain a legal challenge on water. I have a whole soapbox speech about venues that 'require' you to buy water and the health code mandated water fountains are near useless to non-functional.

And I have a second speech on that issue from a sustainability point which would be really going in the wrong direction.

My opinion is 'call the cops'.

Re: Black Tarp Under GA Dome Roof
 

Thanks very much Dave for giving us the facts, a picture and ending our speculation. Some years I am in the GA Dome 10 times (we have a so called pro football team here) but I had never heard about the reason for the tarp.

On Friday, I entered the Dome and right behind me were two ladies holding 1 bottle each of water. The attendant at the door suggested that they simply go back out, put the water in their handbags and reenter the gate which they did with no problem, so obviously there are exceptions to the rule.
Dave

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

I agree that that's a worst-case scenario. However, I think that at the outside, 2 more years (above what I figured) would fill Championship to capacity by filling any empty slots created by double-qualifying or not showing up. So that's 2014. Not that far away, is it? If we don't come up with possible solutions now, we'll have to then. It's a lot easier to fix something before it breaks than after.

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

Galileo finally got the win! congrats 1114, 217, 148

Re: Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please
 

First off i thought GWCC and the Gerogia Dome did an excellent job of housing our ever growing WWF for smart people event...

One thing that would benefit all teams.. would be the addition of extra practice arenas or partial practice arenas (maybe 1 per division).. Luckily, our team was able to aquire one practice slot on two of the three days and many other teams wern't even able to recieve a single practice slot on the fields. Im not sure on the logistics of the issue but more practicing time would be a great addition to the Internationals...(for last minute tweaks :D )

Last thing.. at the practice field during one of our slots we found there was no track ball to practice with because ... "FIRST was not providing trackballs for the practice field." (what we were told) Fortunately we had brought our deflated trackball and were able to inflate it with 5 min to spare or so.. Im not sure if the provision of trackballs was announced or not before hand but we ended up deciding to give our track ball to the practice field for the remaining time in the Gerogia Dome for the other less fortunate teams who hadnt brought their track balls with them.

Overall it was another great FIRST INTERNATIONAL !!!:cool: