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-   -   Is competing at multiple regionals REALLY fair ? (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67103)

Cory 07-01-2008 05:03 PM
Re: Is competing at multiple regionals REALLY fair ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fuzzy1718 (Post 755170)
The top 8 not being able to pick amongst themselves, my reasoning is plain and simple, GLR this year. It was a lot more fun and interesting with all the upsets, and 3rd matches (sometimes 4), I believe due to the top (I think it was) 6 being unable to pick one another.
For those who were present, did this really happen? I don't recall discussion about it during the season.

If so, how was such a gross perversion of the rules allowed to take place?

sgreco 07-01-2008 05:09 PM
Re: Is competing at multiple regionals REALLY fair ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fuzzy1718 (Post 755170)
The top 8 not being able to pick amongst themselves, my reasoning is plain and simple, GLR this year. It was a lot more fun and interesting with all the upsets, and 3rd matches (sometimes 4), I believe due to the top (I think it was) 6 being unable to pick one another. i don't know what happened any where else in the country, but that had to be the most interesting and most fun regional we have attened, that is the majority of my team talking.
Another problem I can see with this is that if a team wants to be picked by the #1 seed, then they could intentionally lose to fall out of the top 8. If a team intentionally loses they can hurt a team on their alliance that wants to win.

Overdrive wasn't a great representaion of making fair alliances because the third partner didn't matter as much as it had in previous games. In games where 3rd alliance partners were more valuable, the part of alliance selection when it goes backwards(8-1) had a bigger advantage to the lower seeded alliance partners. Because of this the lower seeded alliances would gain ground on the higher seeded alliances in their second pick. (don't get me wrong, I thought Overdrive was a great game. This is simply the reason I believe that the top alliances were even more successful than usual) I do not beleive this to be a problem.

Andrew Schreiber 07-01-2008 05:39 PM
Re: Is competing at multiple regionals REALLY fair ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory (Post 755187)
For those who were present, did this really happen? I don't recall discussion about it during the season.

If so, how was such a gross perversion of the rules allowed to take place?
Yes, 66 was #1 and they picked teams that didn't accept pushing them out of being picked by others. Perfectly legit actually. And quite dumb on the part of the other teams 66 was actually quite a good robot.

Cory 07-01-2008 05:41 PM
Re: Is competing at multiple regionals REALLY fair ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien1247 (Post 755190)
Yes, 66 was #1 and they picked teams that wouldn't accept in order to push them out of being picked by others. Perfectly legit actually. And quite dumb on the part of the other teams 66 was actually quite a good robot.
Oh. So it was an intentional strategy by a team, not FIRST disallowing it.

Gotcha.

Andrew Schreiber 07-01-2008 05:43 PM
Re: Is competing at multiple regionals REALLY fair ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory (Post 755191)
Oh. So it was an intentional strategy by a team, not FIRST disallowing it.

Gotcha.
I wouldn't necessarily say intentional strategy because I can't say they did it with that intent. I misspoke earlier when I said wouldn't I should of said didn't.

IKE 07-01-2008 05:44 PM
Re: Is competing at multiple regionals REALLY fair ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory (Post 755187)
For those who were present, did this really happen? I don't recall discussion about it during the season.

If so, how was such a gross perversion of the rules allowed to take place?
It wasn't a gross perversion of the rules, but just some very strategic play. We saw the same thing at Midwest this year. This was already covered to a great extent in the GLR thread from this year. This specific reference starts around page 10. Please do not include any further comments in this thread as it already has one heated debate going.

EDIT: WOW 4 others were replying while I wrote this. No offense Cory, just poor timing on my response. I am sure you guys have seen this before.

Cory 07-01-2008 05:48 PM
Re: Is competing at multiple regionals REALLY fair ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by IKE (Post 755193)
It wasn't a gross perversion of the rules, but just some very strategic play. We saw the same thing at Midwest this year. This was already covered to a great extent in the GLR thread from this year. This specific reference starts around page 10. Please do not include any further comments in this thread as it already has one heated debate going.
Trust me, I'm all for the use of this strategy. I'm pretty sure I've made that clear in multiple threads having to do with said strategy.

My comment was a reference to FIRST staff changing the rules and not allowing teams to pick in the top 8-I didn't realize a team forced the situation to occur, rather than everyone being limited in the first place.

fuzzy1718 07-01-2008 05:50 PM
Re: Is competing at multiple regionals REALLY fair ?
 
cory no rules were broken, the 1st place seeded team was turned down by the top 6 or 5 (don't quite remember) teams. It was the rules that caused it and it made things less predictable.

I don't doubt at other regionals are fun just the way they are, that is why I don't want FIRST to do anything, just leave it up to the teams. The current system work great some of the time, so why change it on paper. I simply want teams to view the situation differantly.

Akash Rastogi 07-01-2008 06:28 PM
Re: Is competing at multiple regionals REALLY fair ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fuzzy1718 (Post 755195)
cory no rules were broken, the 1st place seeded team was turned down by the top 6 or 5 (don't quite remember) teams. It was the rules that caused it and it made things less predictable.
I actually love it when that happens. It does make the matches so much more exciting to watch. One reason that many teams do this is because they may have been picked by the selecting team before at a previous regional that season and may want to work with some others. And that's why teams choose to go to more than one regional.

tennispro9911 07-01-2008 06:35 PM
Re: Is competing at multiple regionals REALLY fair ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fuzzy1718 (Post 755170)
1st off sorry 217 for the mix-up. I racked my brain for who picked who and eeven tried going to TBA to see, but my computer disconnected just as I got to TBA (dial-up:( ) so I said to myself "I'll pick 217 they won another regional, and were on fire that weekend". I ment no harm by it, if it seemed like I was I'm sorry. It is hard for me to use examples and not sound negative, it is simply my personality; always finding what is wrong and never what is right, ask anyone on my team they will agree. If I could change I would.

For those keep who commenting about what I said about mentors, read my post after the first comment, I wasn't talking about me not respecting all that they have done. I didn't want their answers to be the same that they have been, that is all. I am very grateful for everything that they have done, all their information and help. Koko ed, at MARC after the competition, I wanted to shake your hand and thank you, but you weren't at the door anymore. I seen the X-cats' name on the back of your board, did a double take and thought, "Wow, he came a long way." By no means was my comment ment to be direspectful, if it sounded that way sorry; I just wanted more than the same few mentors responding.
I am a mentor of an FLL team, I donate my time at the county ISD to put on a lego robotics camp, I know what it feels like. If some one on an FLL team said "I don't care for your opinoin" I wouldn't react like you guys have. I would walk away and think "one of many", not yell at the kid to make him feel bad.

Those of you who keep saying the words "pity pick", those by no means are mine, and not what I ment. I also never said that I want the veteran powerhouses to make themselves lose, just to encourage them to chose others that aren't going to Atlanta. All I can say is read what I said and jude that alone, a lot of what others have said is not what I ment, if it sounds like it is to you then, well I don't mean it that way.

If people think that I'm a sophmore in high school, who think he knows it all, I'm not that way and I don't mean to sound that way. I just wanted to stir up some thoughts of the veteran teams, while they are making their alliance selection list. If the mentor comment makes you think that way, I have told you my resoning behind that many times, but some still comment like they haven't read what I have said.

Yes, I have only been here when my team has had the opertunity (I think that is how you spell it) to pick during alliance selection, but I wish that my team would put themselves in others shoes while picking. You are right this is by no means the majority view of my team and I'm suprised that no one on my team has asked me to remove these posts.

The top 8 not being able to pick amongst themselves, my reasoning is plain and simple, GLR this year. It was a lot more fun and interesting with all the upsets, and 3rd matches (sometimes 4), I believe due to the top (I think it was) 6 being unable to pick one another. i don't know what happened any where else in the country, but that had to be the most interesting and most fun regional we have attened, that is the majority of my team talking.

The reason for the 2/3 comment was because everything I say is what happens the majority of the time, not always. I know that there have been examples that don't follow what I have said, but I can only go on what I have seen and experianced.

Most of what I say, yeah could apply to my team, but that is not why I am posting it. I am the kind of person who doesn't think of just himself, our team in this case. If it sounds like I do I don't mean to.

Now you can start the "bash fuzzy1718fest" again, but how you can take offense to what I just said, I don't know.
"just to encourage them to chose others that aren't going to Atlanta." I understand your opinion. I just graduated from a team that was only a part of eliminations once in the four competitions we were in. We have been lucky enough to make Championships both years we competed, but because of the Rookie All-Star Award, and winning the single regional we were in the eliminations for. I was estatic that team 20, the 4th alliance captain, picked us with their 2nd round pick.

That said, teams need to deserve to go to championships. I've been there. It is great, but teams shouldn't get picked in eliminations for any other reason than the attributes they bring to an alliance. Usually that is purely their robot and drivers, and sometimes it includes a proven track record of their repair teams. At times, it includes how well two teams have worked together. This competition gives a huge advantage to veteran teams. There is a reason that I've never seen a rookie on Einstein. It is hard as a rookie, but new knowledge, and experience can help a team improve over the years. There are teams that consistantly build amazing robots. 217, 1114, 103, to name a few, but that doesn't mean any team can't join the ranks of those teams. I hope that in 5 or 10 years, if someone lauds, or complains about powerhouse teams, they will be talking about 2053 in the same breath as 254 and others.

In our regional this year, we had numerous teams that had already punched their ticket to the Championships without winning a single match. Team 20 and 191 were original teams from 1992. Team 191 won the Championships Chairman's award ... twice. 365 and 67 were chairman's award winners. There were numerous teams at our regional that also went on to win additional regionals. We had a stacked regional. We had only 1 rookie team, and 2 second year teams including us. However, I wouldn't have wanted it any other way. We learned a ton from the powerhouses, and loved competing against them.

kramarczyk 07-01-2008 09:47 PM
Re: Is competing at multiple regionals REALLY fair ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien1247 (Post 755192)
I wouldn't necessarily say intentional strategy because I can't say they did it with that intent. I misspoke earlier when I said wouldn't I should of said didn't.
I think we can safely say that it was an intentional strategy.
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...994#post727994

Arefin Bari 07-02-2008 07:42 AM
Re: Is competing at multiple regionals REALLY fair ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sgreco27 (Post 755188)
Overdrive wasn't a great representaion of making fair alliances because the third partner didn't matter as much as it had in previous games. In games where 3rd alliance partners were more valuable, the part of alliance selection when it goes backwards(8-1) had a bigger advantage to the lower seeded alliance partners. Because of this the lower seeded alliances would gain ground on the higher seeded alliances in their second pick. (don't get me wrong, I thought Overdrive was a great game. This is simply the reason I believe that the top alliances were even more successful than usual) I do not beleive this to be a problem.
We can have a whole discussion about what you pointed out here. And I am sure that not all of us will agree with each other, simply because we are all different. All the regionals that I have watched/been to, the 3rd alliance partner was a great asset to the alliance. I understand that the 3rd alliance partner was usually a lap runner who gained the alliance an extran 20 points or so, but at the same time some teams changed their strategy to play defense throughout the game. At florida regional, team 342 was a third pick by team 179 and team 69. They kept team 103 away from the ball which crippled the alliance of 108, 103, and 395. Also team 148 played defense at championship. Maybe we all didn't notice them enough because of other robots hurdling and enough actions going on around the field, but Robowranglers kept opponents from capping/knocking the ball off/kept the ball away from their opponent. From all the games I have seen in FIRST, each alliance partners played important role. It was based upon teams' strategy to either put up more points for the alliance or play defense.

sgreco 07-02-2008 02:53 PM
Re: Is competing at multiple regionals REALLY fair ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arefin Bari (Post 755240)
We can have a whole discussion about what you pointed out here. And I am sure that not all of us will agree with each other, simply because we are all different. All the regionals that I have watched/been to, the 3rd alliance partner was a great asset to the alliance. I understand that the 3rd alliance partner was usually a lap runner who gained the alliance an extran 20 points or so, but at the same time some teams changed their strategy to play defense throughout the game. At florida regional, team 342 was a third pick by team 179 and team 69. They kept team 103 away from the ball which crippled the alliance of 108, 103, and 395. Also team 148 played defense at championship. Maybe we all didn't notice them enough because of other robots hurdling and enough actions going on around the field, but Robowranglers kept opponents from capping/knocking the ball off/kept the ball away from their opponent. From all the games I have seen in FIRST, each alliance partners played important role. It was based upon teams' strategy to either put up more points for the alliance or play defense.

I definitely agree with what you are saying. The 3rd alliance partner is always a necessary part of any successful alliance. I just think that this year the first two teams on an alliance could win without a third partner a lot easier than they could in previous years.

I think that the amount of points that two good hurdlers with decent hybrid modes collected in a match was too much for most lapbots to compete with. Some of the really good hurdlers were just as fast as some of the lapbots. I also found that some of the really good hurdlers could get around the track and hurdle just as fast as some lapbots could do a lap.(I don't mean to say anything bad about lapbots, as many times they were important to an a alliance).

=Martin=Taylor= 07-02-2008 08:03 PM
Re: Is competing at multiple regionals REALLY fair ?
 
[
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sgreco27 (Post 755188)
Another problem I can see with this is that if a team wants to be picked by the #1 seed, then they could intentionally lose to fall out of the top 8. If a team intentionally loses they can hurt a team on their alliance that wants to win.

Overdrive wasn't a great representaion of making fair alliances because the third partner didn't matter as much as it had in previous games. In games where 3rd alliance partners were more valuable, the part of alliance selection when it goes backwards(8-1) had a bigger advantage to the lower seeded alliance partners. Because of this the lower seeded alliances would gain ground on the higher seeded alliances in their second pick. (don't get me wrong, I thought Overdrive was a great game. This is simply the reason I believe that the top alliances were even more successful than usual) I do not beleive this to be a problem.
Maybe not at the regional level, but at the championship the 3rd partner is always EXTREMELY important.

On our Curie alliance all three teams hurdled and traded off defense. In this method we were able to outmaneuver defensive robots. If one robot was slowed down by defenders another took the ball.

The alliance that won Curie (67, 16, 348) won largely due to the their third robot. 348 was a ruthless defender, that could get in front of other teams and dramatically slow them down. There was just no outmaneuvering them...

The entire front end of our robot got bent in during the finals on Curie :ahh:

EricH 07-02-2008 08:59 PM
Re: Is competing at multiple regionals REALLY fair ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fuzzy1718 (Post 755170)
I also never said that I want the veteran powerhouses to make themselves lose, just to encourage them to chose others that aren't going to Atlanta.
I'm just going to say this-- While the above is a noble goal, it's often hard to both win and choose teams who aren't going to Atlanta. If you can do both parts, great. If not, then you'll have to choose. How you make the choice is up to your team, and your team alone. I'm not going to criticize either choice. Sometimes, you can do both. Then, is there a choice?

tennispro9911 07-03-2008 10:01 AM
Re: Is competing at multiple regionals REALLY fair ?
 
Sometimes you can do both, but there are a lot of teams that aren't going to atlanta. I would say that if you want to go to Atlanta you should deserve to go to Atlanta and deserve to get picked for eliminations. Teams shouldn't pick old friends just because, but they also shouldn't pick rookies just because they are rookies, or worse teams just because they are worse. In a tough regional, every match is close, and the third alliance partner matters a great deal. That was the case at our regional, and it especially showed at Championships.

Tom Line 07-03-2008 10:50 AM
Re: Is competing at multiple regionals REALLY fair ?
 
Fuzzy is one of the most laid-back, nicest guys on the team and I can assure you he only wants what's best for FIRST. Unfortunately, the internet is not a perfect communication tool, and sometimes the ideas you want to convey are not clear after being translated into type. He said he didn't intend to insult anyone - please take that at face value.

We have these same conversations internally. There is a huge learning curve and a huge financial curve in FIRST. I think we're all looking for ways to level the playing field and become more competitive.

I have to agree that having a situation where the top 8 teams could not pick each other improved our regional experience. It prevented the creation of a "super" team of the top 2 hurdlers, and really made everyone feel that they had more than a long shot chance at making it. I would fully support a change to the system where the top 8 teams cannot pick each other.

We need a way to help more of the newer teams get up to speed. The chassis kitbot is one incredible example of a way that worked. Perhaps giving breaks on entry fees to teams that mentor a rookie team is another way. (Do they already do this?)

Perhaps we could allow second year teams to reuse custom-made parts to help budget issues and the learning curve.

I'd like to also see more socials at regional events. Mixers (cards etc) with random seating and partners have worked very well at the off-season events. Having these Thursday night would help you get to know the folks you're about to compete against.

Anyway, just remember we're all here posting for the same reason - we want to improve FIRST.

JaneYoung 07-03-2008 11:19 AM
Re: Is competing at multiple regionals REALLY fair ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Line (Post 755340)
Anyway, just remember we're all here posting for the same reason - we want to improve FIRST.
How many powerhouse teams are there in FRC? What is their impact, overall, affecting all of the robot competitions, including the regionals and Atlanta? It would be my guess that the powerhouse teams are the minority and will remain so as more and more teams form to compete in FRC.

In your post, it seems several topics are being touched on. The merits of bringing newer teams up to speed more quickly probably deserves its own thread discussion: being more competitive at the events therefore improving the odds of being selected, building/developing teams, identifying resources/factors that can help all of this, and creating opportunities for more social interactions among the teams.

Just some thoughts.

commodoredl 07-03-2008 12:02 PM
Re: Is competing at multiple regionals REALLY fair ?
 
I've been watching this thread for a while and I think I'd like to share a bit about my team's experience at multiple regionals.
578 is one of those teams who have been around a while, shows up, takes home one of the minor awards each year or sometimes none at all, and goes home. We haven't won a Regional since 2001, and we haven't been finalists since 2004 (Long enough that no one on our team remembers those robots). We attend 2 regionals, a home regional and an away regional. Unfortunately, we never have enough funds for two regionals and Atlanta, so it's either away regional or Atlanta. It has always been a great experience getting to attend a second regional. Even if we do poorly at the first regional, we know our experience will be able to carry us further at the second regional in the matches. This year we were 4-6 at our first regional, our second we were 6-3 which was enough to make us alliance captains for the first time in 2 years. A second regional can give a team who isn't a "powerhouse" a second chance at showing the other teams that they mean business.
You've been asking how "powerhouse teams" attending multiple regionals can be a bad thing. But from the point of view of "just another FIRST team," attending a second regional even if we miss out on Atlanta or a Championship is the best part of our season. Our drivers get a chance to learn the game, and our team gets a second chance at winning an award. The people we meet and places we see more than make up for a dominant #1 alliance who can still make the playoffs entertaining most of the time anyways.

Akash Rastogi 07-05-2008 12:08 AM
Re: Is competing at multiple regionals REALLY fair ?
 
I just have one thing to say to people who complain about the success of those 'dominating' teams such as 254, 71, 25, 233, 1114, 67 and many others that I hope puts an end to that debate:

"There is no substitute for hard work."- Thomas A. Edison

+$0.02

Andrew Schreiber 07-05-2008 12:18 AM
Re: Is competing at multiple regionals REALLY fair ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilstogi11 (Post 755533)
I just have one thing to say to people who complain about the success of those 'dominating' teams such as 254, 71, 25, 233, 1114, 67 and many others that I hope puts an end to that debate:

"There is no substitute for hard work."- Thomas A. Edison

+$0.02
Couldn't agree with you more, coming from a team that many would consider good (27) I can tell you that those kids put in a ton of work. Find one of them at competition and ask for their schedule. Yes, their hours are scheduled. Some of them are never allowed to leave the pits or the stands. Being good requires hard work and dedication. There is a quote from Bill Gates about this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Gates
You will NOT make 40 thousand dollars a year right out of high school. You won't be a vice president with car phone, until you earn both.
You have to work for success so stop complaining about teams that are dedicated and reap the rewards.

tim_reiher 07-05-2008 12:20 AM
Re: Is competing at multiple regionals REALLY fair ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilstogi11 (Post 755533)
"There is no substitute for hard work." Thomas A. Edison
Simply and perfectly put.

This may have been said before, but bears repeating.

If you are unsatisfied with your end product, or performance, grumbling and venting on these forums is not what you should do. What this should be, instead, is an opportunity. Work hard, and improve. One of the goals of FIRST is to inspire, and the feeling of personal accomplishment, pride, and confidence from having improved yourself and your team is a great source of inspiration. You may not be as successful as Wildstang, or Hammond. But this inspiration, and character gained from such a learning experience as FIRST, is plenty a reward unto itself.

IKE 07-05-2008 10:02 AM
Re: Is competing at multiple regionals REALLY fair ?
 
I would like to add that it takes more than just hard work, it takes smart work. What I mean by this is that you have to work hard at smart things.

In college all too often I saw people spend hours and hours working on a homework problem only to turn in an incomplete problem. While hardwork is admirable, that was not smart work. The students that get the good grades either worked in groups, or talked with a TA/prof when they ran into roadblocks.

This is one of the beautiful things about FIRST. Teams are more than happy to explain their methods for success. Having a few years of bad runs. Talk to a team doing well. Philosophically opposed to their way of doing things then talk to another team whose accomplishments you respect. If you repeat this enough times you will either learn from a team with a similar philosophy that has success, or you may learn you have a loosing philosophy that needs to be refreshed in order to be more competitive.

One philosophy that all the good teams do is find a way to compete in more than one regional, and if they can go to the Championship. Reason being is that they get more exposure to great ideas that way and can find out what is working for others.

Having competed in a lot of other high school and Collegiate design series, FIRST is one of the only programs I have seen that will literally give you all of their best secrets just by asking. Pretty amazing really.

smurfgirl 07-06-2008 04:08 PM
Re: Is competing at multiple regionals REALLY fair ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hachiban VIII (Post 755290)
[

Maybe not at the regional level, but at the championship the 3rd partner is always EXTREMELY important.

On our Curie alliance all three teams hurdled and traded off defense. In this method we were able to outmaneuver defensive robots. If one robot was slowed down by defenders another took the ball.

The alliance that won Curie (67, 16, 348) won largely due to the their third robot. 348 was a ruthless defender, that could get in front of other teams and dramatically slow them down. There was just no outmaneuvering them...

The entire front end of our robot got bent in during the finals on Curie :ahh:

I have to agree with this.

Our alliance was three hurdling robots. When we were tied 1-1 in the finals on Archimedes, and had been decimated in the second match, we put a new strategy in play. Everyone was expecting us to play offense, since we had been a strong offensive player all season, so we started our robot as defense and put 1024 and 177 on offense. When the other alliance caught on that 177 was scoring, they went over to play defense on them, so we started scoring instead, and let the other robots pile up in the corner. It was a little messier than that on the field, but that's the concept that allowed our alliance to win the final Archimedes match and make it to Einstein.

On Einstein, however, the winning Curie alliance destroyed us with their defense. During the second semifinals match, I think all three of our robots were so tangled they were immobile. It was pretty frustrating standing in the alliance station, unable to do anything about the situation.

This shows that while the third alliance partner choice was great against one alliance (on Archimedes), it didn't hold up as well against another (on Einstein). Curie's alliance's third partner was also important in their strategy against our alliance. It's not all about the offensive "powerhouses", strategy is key.

Mike Schreiber 07-07-2008 04:46 AM
Re: Is competing at multiple regionals REALLY fair ?
 
Note: this is thread has gone way off topic from multiple regionals and I will continue that trend.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lilstogi11 (Post 755533)
I just have one thing to say to people who complain about the success of those 'dominating' teams such as 254, 71, 25, 233, 1114, 67 and many others that I hope puts an end to that debate:

"There is no substitute for hard work."- Thomas A. Edison

+$0.02
Although I do like the quote I don't completely agree with how applicable it is. Hypothetically, I can work at a mill for 2 hours making a part from a drawing that I worked equally hard on. Yes I am successful and the part works, but I spent 2 hours more than a team with a CNC mill that doesn't need to work as hard or as long to achieve the same thing. Or they could order the part and get in machined professionally...I hate to say it but...there are some circumstances in which cash can be a substitute for hard work. With more time and resources there is not an even playing field.

I am not saying by any means that the 'power house' teams don't deserve to repeat their victories and that they shoulded be rewarded for their achievements, but I think rookie teams need more of a fighting chance. The rookie regional was a great example of teams with a near (not perfectly) even playing field competing.

On the comment of GLR and the no ultimate alliance I didn't like what happened at all. No, not because we denied 66 and as the third seed could not take 67, 217 or join with 47 in the second seed but because it stopped the competing alliances from doing the best they could do, possibly setting a new national highscore or a teams personal record. Yes, they can do their personal best with anyone in their alliance provided their alliance partners don't impede their abilities or rack up penalties, but it's a different scenario.

I know I'm arguing both to even the playing field and allow the veterans to gang up, but I'm just trying to point out that it's a flawed system. No matter what we change and how we do things we can not perfect the system. Short of specifying exactly what can be used as a resource and how much can be spent and providing those resources to every team therefore partially stunting creativity and innovation in teams that want to go beyond that there is no way to even the playing field perfectly. Even then there is a matter of prior knowledge and man power some teams have more people who are more educated or experienced.

Flawed as it may be, FIRST is still a great program with great people and certainly a great community. Nothing is perfect and competitions can't leave everyone happy. There can only be one winning alliance, but instead of complaining about how good they are we should learn from them, and even if we can't beat them in FIRST strive to use what they teach us to better to world.

+0.02 and a corny ending

Akash Rastogi 07-07-2008 07:42 AM
Re: Is competing at multiple regionals REALLY fair ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICanCountTo19 (Post 755713)
...I hate to say it but...there are some circumstances in which cash can be a substitute for hard work. With more time and resources there is not an even playing field.
But my point is that it takes hard work to get those sponsors to in turn get the money to provide for a CNC mill or to pay for some machining. But yea, I do see what you are saying. My point is to just not complain about the teams that do work hard and are successful. Like you said, you could hand machine all your parts and still be successful like 27, but to others who would like to view it in a negative way, they may complain of your success not knowing that you hand machine things like many of my other favorite successful teams. *that makes sense right? but idk haha:P *

Steve W 07-07-2008 11:01 AM
Re: Is competing at multiple regionals REALLY fair ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilstogi11 (Post 755716)
..., but to others who would like to view it in a negative way, they may complain of your success not knowing that you hand machine things like many of my other favorite successful teams.
I know that Team 188 is known as a rich team up here in the Great White North. The fact is that we don't have the machinery that others do. There is an old mill that one of our sponsors has that can be used but the school frowns on us going there. We do have a mentor that goes an usually takes 1 student with him. We have also, in the last 3 years, found a good deal on laser cutting of our drive base. We still have to earn the money to pay for it.

Our team works hard for the funds. They wanted to do a summer project but didn't have the money so they started selling Freezies after school. They earned almost $1000.00 and now have the money for the off season project. Nothing comes easy. Hard work does not mean success. If you work hard and smart, use your resources well (engineers are great resources), then your odds of being successful are much higher

Remember that the so called rich teams may not have the funds that you believe them to have. They are sometimes able to maximize their money because of experience and good job planning (measure twice, cut once). learn from other teams, do not be afraid to ask for help or ideas. Our team has had a great drive train thanks to help from team 25. Our off season project involves working with 2 other teams ideas to improve our team. We always make sure that we contact teams that we get ideas from and give them credit when we get a final product. As of yet we have not found any teams that were not willing to share.

artdutra04 07-07-2008 11:07 AM
Re: Is competing at multiple regionals REALLY fair ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICanCountTo19 (Post 755713)
Although I do like the quote I don't completely agree with how applicable it is. Hypothetically, I can work at a mill for 2 hours making a part from a drawing that I worked equally hard on. Yes I am successful and the part works, but I spent 2 hours more than a team with a CNC mill that doesn't need to work as hard or as long to achieve the same thing. Or they could order the part and get in machined professionally...I hate to say it but...there are some circumstances in which cash can be a substitute for hard work. With more time and resources there is not an even playing field.
Just because a team fabricates a part on a CNC milling machine does not mean it was faster than it could have been created on a manual milling machine.

There are a lot of "extra steps" involved with CNC work that add a lot of time onto the procedure, such as creating the NC program and testing/simulating it. The only time it becomes faster to make parts on a CNC mill is when the complexity of the part goes through the roof or when you have a large production run (dozens, hundreds, or even thousands) to make.

For the vast majority of the time, these situations are not the norm during the FRC build season. There isn't much one can't make between a lathe and a milling machine with rotary table and DROs. Sure, you may not get fancy triangulated lightening pockets (although square ones are very easy to make, especially with DROs), but you can have fully functional parts.

I've seen a lot of teams get so worked up on "OMG, we have a CNC machine!!1!" that they spend so much time and energy making pretty wheel rims or milling their team logo into a sheet of aluminum or Lexan (or in other words, parts which have no bearing on the success of the robot) that they kind of "forget" about designing/fabricating a smart mechanism, and end up with some plywood last minute creation that only works halfway as well as it could have.

Cory 07-07-2008 12:52 PM
Re: Is competing at multiple regionals REALLY fair ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICanCountTo19 (Post 755713)
Note: this is thread has gone way off topic from multiple regionals and I will continue that trend.



Although I do like the quote I don't completely agree with how applicable it is. Hypothetically, I can work at a mill for 2 hours making a part from a drawing that I worked equally hard on. Yes I am successful and the part works, but I spent 2 hours more than a team with a CNC mill that doesn't need to work as hard or as long to achieve the same thing. Or they could order the part and get in machined professionally...I hate to say it but...there are some circumstances in which cash can be a substitute for hard work. With more time and resources there is not an even playing field.
Very true, but those teams work hard to get those things- to have access to a CNC mill, to get machine shops to donate time to make their parts. These are things anyone can do.

For example, machining resources. Get out the yellow pages and start calling every machine shop within 25 miles of you. I guarantee you will find more than one who is willing to help you out. We have found 3 or 4 locally who have helped us at one point or another in the last 3 years (with a significant amount of work), and 968 has done the same with many more shops.

Another thing to look for is community colleges with machine tool technology programs. You can often take the intro class, and then sign up for an open lab class to make personal projects (ie: robot parts)

fuzzy1718 07-07-2008 01:10 PM
Re: Is competing at multiple regionals REALLY fair ?
 
A great example of how a team with a mill is at more of an advantage than those without: Our team this year spent 3 or 4 hrs drilling holes in our lift with a hole saw. How longer would that have taken on a mill, an hour maybe two?

Practicly our entire robot this year was made from hand tools, a drill press welder, and hand drills. We had only 1 or 2 parts in a machine shop, one was to get the gears off our fisher price motors.

Tell me who has the advantage, the team that can do it themselves in an hour or the team who has to send it to a machine shop and wait a day or two?

=Martin=Taylor= 07-07-2008 01:20 PM
Re: Is competing at multiple regionals REALLY fair ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fuzzy1718 (Post 755752)
A great example of how a team with a mill is at more of an advantage than those without: Our team this year spent 3 or 4 hrs drilling holes in our lift with a hole saw. How longer would that have taken on a mill, an hour maybe two?

Practicly our entire robot this year was made from hand tools, a drill press welder, and hand drills. We had only 1 or 2 parts in a machine shop, one was to get the gears off our fisher price motors.

Tell me who has the advantage, the team that can do it themselves in an hour or the team who has to send it to a machine shop and wait a day or two?
A limited budget will force you to think more creatively, and come up with more simple and elegant solutions.

Just look at team 121. You could have built that robot with the tools you just described (as many other teams did :) ).

Yeah, our team can't make things as fast or as complex as the Cheesy Poofs... And that's why we've never copied the Cheesy Poofs...

There's always an easier/simpler way to do something. You just have to look.

sgreco 07-07-2008 01:28 PM
Re: Is competing at multiple regionals REALLY fair ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fuzzy1718 (Post 755752)
A great example of how a team with a mill is at more of an advantage than those without: Our team this year spent 3 or 4 hrs drilling holes in our lift with a hole saw. How longer would that have taken on a mill, an hour maybe two?

Practicly our entire robot this year was made from hand tools, a drill press welder, and hand drills. We had only 1 or 2 parts in a machine shop, one was to get the gears off our fisher price motors.

Tell me who has the advantage, the team that can do it themselves in an hour or the team who has to send it to a machine shop and wait a day or two?
I sort of see what you're saying but...

Cory is right, if you need access to machinery, go to local machine shops and ask if they'll let you use there machines. I'm sure they'll let you.

My team went our first year without access to much machinery. This year we went to a local machine shop. We literally walked in and said "we are a local robotics team, and if you would be so kind as to let us use your shop a little bit in the next 6 weeks it would be greatly appreciated." We had no previous connections with the shop and the guy who owned it basically let us use it whenever we wanted.

Another story: After this build season my team decided we wanted a mill for the lab. We went to a local company to see if they would be interested in sponsoring us. After introducing the owner to FIRST and telling him our needs, he offered to give us a Bridgeport mill.

All I'm trying to say is if you put in the effort to get machinery or access to machinery, most of the time you are going to be successful.

It's not a matter of a team being at a disadvantage due to circumstance, it's a matter of teams being at an advantage because they took the time to work to give themselves an advantage.

Molten 07-07-2008 01:35 PM
Re: Is competing at multiple regionals REALLY fair ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sgreco27 (Post 755758)
go to local machine shops and ask if they'll let you use there machines. I'm sure they'll let you.
As long as they don't worry about safety issues. The shop we went to would make parts for us, but we had to be escorted throughout the building and they had to be the ones to use the machines. Something to do with company policy and insurance reasons.

JVN 07-07-2008 01:45 PM
Re: Is competing at multiple regionals REALLY fair ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fuzzy1718 (Post 755752)
Tell me who has the advantage, the team that can do it themselves in an hour or the team who has to send it to a machine shop and wait a day or two?
In my mind the students who get to learn how to spec a part for the professional shop definitely have the advantage over the students who get to learn how to use the hole-saw.

But then again, my opinion doesn't matter, right?
-John

Akash Rastogi 07-07-2008 02:17 PM
Re: Is competing at multiple regionals REALLY fair ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory (Post 755748)
Another thing to look for is community colleges with machine tool technology programs. You can often take the intro class, and then sign up for an open lab class to make personal projects (ie: robot parts)

Btw: yes, we went off topic lol but w/e


Cory has a very good point here. We've been so lucky to have the engineering profs. work with us to not only help build the robots but to also use their machine shop and a presentation center to host our kickoff event. County College of Morris is apparently one of the top community colleges so we are pretty lucky to have them help us and I suggest other teams do the same for a machining resource.

EricH 07-07-2008 02:44 PM
Re: Is competing at multiple regionals REALLY fair ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory (Post 755748)
Another thing to look for is community colleges with machine tool technology programs. You can often take the intro class, and then sign up for an open lab class to make personal projects (ie: robot parts)
I'm with you there, Cory. Couple years ago, someone found out that El Camino College (Torrance, CA) has a shop that is open to any registered student if they've got the training. Teams 330 and 294 had some members take classes, and it didn't cost a whole lot. Got one of the instructors involved...

I don't know how many teams have actually used that shop, but I distinctly remember taking a class there during one of another team's FIX-IT windows, as they brought their arm in to work on it.

IKE 07-07-2008 03:14 PM
Re: Is competing at multiple regionals REALLY fair ?
 
Can this be changed to the:
"Is life REALLY fair?" thread since there are so many tangents.:D

In college I watched two guys compete on which was the fastest way to turn out an axle with very precise bearing lands. One used a CNC lathe, the other a WW2 monarch (a nice peice of machinery as long as the vacuum tubes worked). End result they finished at the same time with the same quality of part. The CNC guy did have 4 scrap axles though.
If the task was to make 2 perfect axles the CNC guy would have won.

Be grateful for what you have (there is always someone who has less). Work hard to earn more, but remember someone will always have more. Very skilled people have helped rookies buid nice robots on Thursdays will little more than hacksaws and hand drills.

As my fifth grade math teach used to sing:
"I once had the blues cause I got no shoes
'til I happened to meet a man with no feet."

Josh Fox 07-07-2008 04:27 PM
Re: Is competing at multiple regionals REALLY fair ?
 
*****Off Topic Section*****

Nothing in life is free. The team that has a full machine shop and every luxury that money can afford had to work to get that money, while the team with next to nothing but a hard working group of people have to work to in different ways to get the same results. Both groups have put in different kinds of work, and it's not really something that is on a measurable scale. It's like comparing apples to oranges, it just doesn't work.

Let's face it, in the real world, some people truly do have advantages, but that doesn't mean that hard work can't prevail. For example, I've had classmates who can ace everything without any effort, while others have to work incredibly hard to get the same results.



*****My attempt at an on topic comment*****
Though I am strongly for competing at multiple regionals, mostly because they are tons of fun, I can see the other side of this debate, and as a driver I can see where it would give the teams that do compete at multiple regionals an advantage over those who don't/can't.

In my experience, no matter how many hours of drive practice you put in, there's no real substitute for actually competing. This is the best way I can put this to have it make sense (maybe). Let's say two teams (A and B) have completely identical robots, drivers, skills, etc. If Team A and Team B put in exactly the same amount of practice prior to a competition, but Team A has already competed at one regional, I would give them an advantage if Teams A and B were to compete. That said, I'm eliminating all the variables here like strategy and such, but I think people need to accept that there are two valid sides to this debate, and neither of them is the absolutely correct one.

Hopefully this has made enough sense for people to be able to interpret it as a semi-intelligent comment.

Molten 07-07-2008 04:49 PM
Re: Is competing at multiple regionals REALLY fair ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FoXy92 (Post 755784)
Hopefully this has made enough sense for people to be able to interpret it as a semi-intelligent comment.
Sorry, It's not semi-intelligent. It is completely intelligent. Hopefully, people will let this thread die as it should have long ago.

Josh Fox 07-07-2008 08:27 PM
Re: Is competing at multiple regionals REALLY fair ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Molten (Post 755786)
Sorry, It's not semi-intelligent. It is completely intelligent.
I'm glad that people were able to understand my thoughts, and I appreciate the compliment sincerely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Molten (Post 755786)
Hopefully, people will let this thread die as it should have long ago.

I do respectfully disagree that this thread should be dead, because I feel that if it gets back on track, people voice their opinions respectfully, and come into this debate with an open mind, then maybe it will provoke some thoughts from other people. Let's face it, we could use some more original, against the grain thoughts in this world. However, I will agree that if this thread stays the way it has been, which I see as one where people are taking others opinions as attacks against their beliefs or themselves, then nothing productive will come out of the discussion and it should be closed.

So lets try and get back to intelligent, productive, non-offensive, open-minded discussions. :)

tennispro9911 07-08-2008 09:51 AM
Re: Is competing at multiple regionals REALLY fair ?
 
Sometimes its fun to argue. I don't mean pointless arguments but discussions that provoke your thoughts. There isn't one right answer to many questions. As a community it is good for us to discuss our beliefs and opinions.

All teams are not created equal nor do all have equal opportunities. Teams can work hard to overcome obstacles, but some teams have inherit advantages. Our team for example has a mill at our school. That is an advantage over some teams that we did not have to work for. We also have numerous other advantages and disadvantages over some teams. That's life. That's reality. FIRST does a great job of leveling the playing field with the KOP, but the playing field is never completely level. For example, a team from a very rural area with no CNC mills within 100 miles of them would have a disadvantage compared to a team that can walk up to a community college, take a course, and use their equipment. Hard work does not completely level the playing field either. Hard work makes it more level, but the team with more resources will use their hard work to expand them to a level that might be impossible for some other teams.

However, we are forgetting the purpose of FIRST. Even though we are in FIRST because its fun, and I know that everyone would love to win a championship or, in some cases, a regional, we are really in FIRST to develop a love and appreciation for Math, Science, and Technology. This is our goal. Every team can do this effectively regardless of how well they do in competitions.

Tom Line 07-08-2008 03:53 PM
Re: Is competing at multiple regionals REALLY fair ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sgreco27 (Post 755758)
I sort of see what you're saying but...
All I'm trying to say is if you put in the effort to get machinery or access to machinery, most of the time you are going to be successful.
*chuckle* Actually, we did just that. We now have a semi-local (40 minute drive, but hey we're not picky!) prototyping some new dewalt style transmissions for us and they've promised to work with us down the road too.

Let's keep steering this back onto the road of improving first. What if FIRST made a directory of machine shops that help out other teams (with their permission of course) so that in a pinch, rookie or "new" teams could get something done if they really needed it?

s_forbes 07-08-2008 04:49 PM
Re: Is competing at multiple regionals REALLY fair ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fuzzy1718 (Post 755752)
Practicly our entire robot this year was made from hand tools, a drill press welder, and hand drills.
Hey, us too! Our robot was designed in a way so that it could be built with a hacksaw and a hand drill. We actually had access to a nice mill; we walked by it every single day in the shop! But we never used it. I guess we don't build our robots correctly... (as an interesting side note, we haven't had to put a single speedhole in a robot since our rookie year in 2006!)


As for the competing in multiple regionals: The rulebook allows it, therefore it is fair in the FIRST competition. I'm personally very happy that it is allowed, otherwise we would have been non-functional in a majority of our matches this season. (we had some defective wiring to the distribution block through the entire Arizona regional, didn't figure it out until we went to L.A.)

Akash Rastogi 07-08-2008 10:48 PM
Re: Is competing at multiple regionals REALLY fair ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Line (Post 755924)
Let's keep steering this back onto the road of improving first. What if FIRST made a directory of machine shops that help out other teams (with their permission of course) so that in a pinch, rookie or "new" teams could get something done if they really needed it?
That would be a hard task, but I'd be up to helping you out. But let's open another thread for that please. :)

waialua359 07-10-2008 07:22 PM
Re: Is competing at multiple regionals REALLY fair ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tennispro9911 (Post 755887)
Sometimes its fun to argue. I don't mean pointless arguments but discussions that provoke your thoughts. There isn't one right answer to many questions. As a community it is good for us to discuss our beliefs and opinions.

All teams are not created equal nor do all have equal opportunities. Teams can work hard to overcome obstacles, but some teams have inherit advantages. Our team for example has a mill at our school. That is an advantage over some teams that we did not have to work for. We also have numerous other advantages and disadvantages over some teams. That's life. That's reality. FIRST does a great job of leveling the playing field with the KOP, but the playing field is never completely level. For example, a team from a very rural area with no CNC mills within 100 miles of them would have a disadvantage compared to a team that can walk up to a community college, take a course, and use their equipment. Hard work does not completely level the playing field either. Hard work makes it more level, but the team with more resources will use their hard work to expand them to a level that might be impossible for some other teams.

However, we are forgetting the purpose of FIRST. Even though we are in FIRST because its fun, and I know that everyone would love to win a championship or, in some cases, a regional, we are really in FIRST to develop a love and appreciation for Math, Science, and Technology. This is our goal. Every team can do this effectively regardless of how well they do in competitions.
excellent, excellent points made here.
:D


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