OSHA Noise Standards and FIRST Events
 

About setting standards for sound levels at events. According to data gathered at nationals most of the field suffered sound levels that were so loud that they violated OSHA standards AVERAGE of over 90dba for hours at a time for both days of the event. Not only are these sound levels dangerous for hearing, and uncomfortable except with ear protection, but frankly they drive spectators away, make it difficult for team cheers to be heard, and in general detract from the event. OSHA standards state that sound pressure of more than 90dba should not be sustained without hearing protection for more than a couple hours. I do not think that the solution to this issue is "wear earplugs". The solution is "set standards, and a measurement and enforcement system that enforces those standards".

My feeling is that FIRST - as the sponsoring organization should be in charge of setting event standards for volume levels, which the regionals and the company in charge of putting on the event for the nationals would be required to comply with. They should have the proper equipment on hand, and a formal system for addressing excessive noise complaints at each regional. I've heard form a number of people that FIRST officials were the ones to tell the event sound people to "pump up the volume".

So my question is - what is the best method for addressing this within the FIRST organization itself, and any suggestions for proposing standards that make sense. I'd appreciate advice on who to contact (preferably someone on the FIRST safety staff as this is truly a safety issue).

Re: Who would be the proper person to contact...
 

Lee,

In the absence of a better starting point, I'd suggest trying FRC Team Support (frcteams@usfirst.org). They might be able to point you in the right direction.

Re: Who would be the proper person to contact...
 

How about telling a FIRST Safety Adviser?

Seems like this falls into their jurisdiction, you know, the S in OSHA!!

Guys like David Straub are good at their job and will protect FIRST participants and fans from unsafe conditions. They tend to spend most of their time in the pits and behind the fields, so they may not have been exposed to the audio for the stands.

I'm relatively unaffected by the sound levels (maybe it was that airport job?), but I see a lot of people with earplugs around the field.

BTW, I'm not quite ready to change my sig to "What'd you say??";)

Re: Who would be the proper person to contact...
 

Although this can be addressed on an event-by-event basis I'd rather see it addressed from the top down. Spectators/mentors/students/parents shouldn't have to complain at each event if standards are set properly. Is Dave a national level FIRST official and if so, do you have contact info for him?

Re: Who would be the proper person to contact...
 

He was lead? safety advisor in a couple of the SoCal Regionals and I saw him in the pits in Atlanta. I might be able to find his contact info through our regional director or local FTA.

Alternatively, you might pose your question in the FIRST Q&A forum for "FIRST Safety" under "Section 3 At the Events..." FIRST generally responds quickly to questions posted there and the answers reflect official FIRST policy.

Re: Who would be the proper person to contact...
 

AS part of Team 47 Safety process we did sound levels at the regionals as well as the Championship.

Sounds levels in the pits at the regionals ( Detroit and Great Lakes ) were 70-85. On the field and in front of the stands it jumped to 90 and a spike as high as 100.

It was a different story at the Championship.

Pit levels were 80 - 85 - not to bad...

However on the field (I had a media pass to use the video camera) levels were 92 - 95 all the time + and spiked at 120 during announcements and play by play.

Levels in the stands were a little lower but not by much.

My team passed out ear plugs but there were few takers.

I know my ears were ringing real bad. I cannot imagine being on the floor all the hours the crews were.

YES this needs to be brought to the attention of FIRST. I made a special effort to keep the safety persons involved and they said it would be addressed.

If FIRST is REALLY committed to safety in all aspects - and I am sure they are this needs to be addressed.

Re: Who would be the proper person to contact...
 

From the House Ear Institute:

Re: Who would be the proper person to contact...
 

I mean, isn't that all part of the fun, i think that it is pretty awesome working under a ton of pressure with the "hype" up music blaring in the background and the crouds cheering.... I would have to say, that without the loud music, the competitions would be much less interesting....

Re: Who would be the proper person to contact...
 

It'll be much less interesting in 20 years when you can't hear anything.

Re: Who would be the proper person to contact...
 

I dont know if this is true for the other fields, but on Curie, the music/commentary wasn't too bad. However, the field sounds (like the starting sound, bell, ending buzzer, etc) were VERY loud. I think it was worse in the stands than on the competition floor because the bottom of the J shaped speakers point right at the front row of seats.

Re: Who would be the proper person to contact...
 

Are you talking about the sound level in the pit area or out where the fields were?

I honestly think it would be too difficult to try to control the volume in the pits. You could barely hear the Pit Admins announcements. So I think it would be safe to guess that most of the sound came from people working on robots and talking. And I find it hard to imagine Safety people walking around from pit to pit asking people to keep their voices down or to stop using noisy tools on their robots...

Re: Who would be the proper person to contact...
 

I would say I noticed that some of the fields were pretty loud (from in the stands) but when I was down on the field it was no where near as loud, it might be from how they set up the speakers. On Saturday my aunt and uncle came to visit and after about 15 min of watching their first robotics competition they both requested that we go elsewhere because their ears just couldn't take the loud noise. I agree, this does need to be addressed! (maybe better monitors on the fields?) And it was disappointing that you couldn't hear team cheers!!

Re: Who would be the proper person to contact...
 

Yeah, I've noticed that. On the field, you can't hear anything...the speakers are aimed away from the field. I've had people leave after a few minutes, too.

Put some monitors out in the crowd with volunteers. That'll give you better data than having them on the field. 1-3 volunteers with monitors...

Re: Who would be the proper person to contact...
 

Working as a translator for an FLL team, the sound level was def. very high on the Einstein field. The team could barely hear what the translators were saying and just talking to the refs on the other side of the table you had to shout. I don't think that's good for the ears or the throat.

On the other hand, the noise level in the pits (FLL and FRC) were fine. Overall, the sound is keeping the spirit up in the stands but it can be toned down a lot. Surely the event can still be fun with noise levels that our grandmothers can withstand all day right?:p

Re: Who would be the proper person to contact...
 

Add to all that noise the high school students are exposed to the fact that a large number of them drive around in vehicles with sound systems that make a 747 at takeoff sound like a whisper and you've got a recipe for disaster - in 20 years as Billfred alluded to.

I, too, was a bit put off by how loud things were in the dome. The noise from other fields resonating inside was also quite distracting. Sometimes the commentary from the field I was watching was overshadowed by an emcee introducing teams on another. Not so much fun.

I'll be investing in Miracle Ear this week! Not for me. I just have a feeling in 20 years there will be a huge demand! :)

Re: Who would be the proper person to contact...
 

when I was one of the students in the "waiting to get an award section" in front of Einstein I thought is was amazingly loud. The only thing I wanted was for the matches to get over so I could leave to a quieter place.

Re: Who would be the proper person to contact...
 

You are my new best friend

For OSHA, for me and for countless other guests and participants, in a word, the answer is "No."

Blake

Re: Who would be the proper person to contact...
 

Mike,
I wish you had told me you were doing sound level measurements, I would have liked to participate in that. What were you using for instrumentation? Does your instrument average over time?

Re: Who would be the proper person to contact...
 

Agreed, but the sound levels at curie (at least as measured by others) were the loudest overall, and you still had to shout to each other to be heard in the stands when standing a couple feet apart. That is too loud for sustained periods.

Re: Who would be the proper person to contact...
 

don't get me wrong. I'm 47 but I love the pumpin' techno as much as the next guy. I was probably the one someone had to keep telling to sit down instead of dancing. But I was doing it with my earplugs in because it was too loud for too long. It's not the loudness in and of itself that's the issue, it's volume and duration that make the magic for ear damage. Anytime you're over 90db (and the measurements show that happened frequently and at least a few times during the event continuously) you are doing damage to your ears - damage that NEVER HEALS. It's cumulative over your lifetime. My dad is nearly deaf from lifetime exposure to loud noises - he now wears hearing aids in both ears and cannot carry on a conversation in a room of people because of hearing loss - even with the aids. I don't want to end up like him, nor do I want anyone on my team, (or my son) to end up the same way.

There is such a thing as building to a crescendo - and these guys apparently haven't heard of that. They just put it on "freakin loud" and left it there :) all day. For short durations (under an hour at say 95-96 db it's actually ok to have it loud. But not for 2 days straight.

Furthermore - I for one think it's WAY more fun to be able to hear the cheers of my team and the other teams than to hear announcing, music and buzzer sounds that drown everything out.

Re: Who would be the proper person to contact...
 

Nice to hear it's not just us old farts :)

Re: Who would be the proper person to contact...
 

I'm specifically talking about the stands. I never noticed the pits as being too loud frankly, at any of the events I've been to. And if they ARE too loud there, the proper response is - it's a noisy environment - ear protection is required. But that shouldn't be the case with the stands/bleachers where FIRST and the crew running sound control the volume.

Re: Who would be the proper person to contact...
 

Done, awaiting a response.

Re: Who would be the proper person to contact...
 

Dave,

Is it possible this is labelled something else, or available only to team leaders or first members. I'm not seeing a Q&A forum, or a first safety subforum. Maybe I'm just old and dumb, or maybe I don't have rights. Could you paste a link to the forum for me?

Sorry for being dense....

Cheers,
Lee

Re: Who would be the proper person to contact...
 

Thank you for posting this. I am a student and I was on Curie field taking pictures and filming matches and I couldn't hear myself think sometimes so I brought some earplugs from the pits and handed them out to several people. I thought it was extremely loud, and I am finally happy that someone is bringing this up. I understand as a driver you you are "in the zone" because I was on the field at Lone Star, but as a media guy and a spectator it is deafening.

On that note, I occasional do tune up the techno but I don't think it is ever louder then what the hip-hop/rock is during a FIRST competition.


Pavan


.

Re: Who would be the proper person to contact...
 

http://forums.usfirst.org/forumdisplay.php?f=553

Only 1 member from your team should have posting privileges in this forum. You will likely have to talk to a team leader to figure out who it is.

Re: Who would be the proper person to contact...
 

Al.... Team 47 was using a hand held unit that measured sound on a weighted basis (you can slow the reaction time of the meter). The unit did not store the readings just gave reading real time.

We kept a status of the current readings in our pit.

Re: Who would be the proper person to contact...
 

Al,

1311 was taking data using a calibrated ExTech data logging sound level meter and a calibrated Sper Scientifice sound pen. Next year we plan on being there with a dosimeter.

some of the data is here, it is from Saturday afternoon and doesn't reflect the other days, I will post that later.: http://www.kellrobotics.org/files/Sound_2008.pdf

Ed

Edit:

I just dug up some data taken at 2:15 to 2:30 in Curie - sound levels during matches were 88 to 95 dbA with peaks, during idle periods between matches 82 to 86 dbA, both cases A weighted with 1 second averaging intervals. Peaks for both periods at about 100 dbA.

What are my observations ? based on this data and the referenced report.

During Einstein - most excessive sound came from the crowd, rarely did we see an incident of the PA system with excessive level. That statement is tempered by the fact the fact that the crowd absorbs sound. This situation is comparable to a large football game. Even if you turned off the PA you would have to wear ear plugs.

During divisionals in Curie data appears that there is less crowd absorption, more PA, levels TOO HIGH. We don't have all the data that I'd like but it's a pretty solid bet that during prelims, and divisional finals the levels were way too high. Generally speaking at Atlanta and the regionals the PA is too hot during prelims and regional/divisional finals.

During Einstein I noticed something as we were recording data: It sound like a study in group dynamics behavior type stuff. After some speech or award presentation the crowd would begin clapping brightly then quickly taper to a long sustain clapp. The sustain always leveled at about 90 dbA, the threshold for discomfort. The level of the initial brightness was dependent on the thing being clapped for. The crowd was twice as loud for Dean Kamen as for everyone/everything else.

On the floor of the dome during divisional finals typical levels were 90dbA plus or minus 3, with constant peaking to 100 dbA. Even if levels were reduced floor officials and volunteers working all day should wear ear plugs.

At noon on Saturday our EHS people had a very long meeting with UL and they asked us to submit our report to UL and to FIRST. We will be doing that later this year and getting it to the right person. For the moment everyone, teams and FIRST, is taking a much needed break.

Re: Who would be the proper person to contact...
 

Ed,
About where in the stands were you seated? We were on the uper level and it was difficult to hear anything up there. Were the people around you making noise as well? I spent some time on the floor each of the three days. On Newton, it was actually hard to hear any of the crowd down behind the field but there was certainly a din I would have guessed at about 85. Getting closer to any of the reflective surfaces, of course, brought up the noise.
I thought the audio was very hot at Boilermaker. They were having other issues most of the weekend. Trying to get the audio guy to recognize that the directional antennas (for the mics), were pointed at the pit door and not the field was hard enough.
Most venues are under local jurisdictions which have noise level policy or exposure statutes but there is little enforcement until the neighbors complain. In my mind, the audio has been getting louder over the years.

Mike,
Do you remember the weighting that you were using? Ed was using "A" weighting it appears.

Re: Who would be the proper person to contact...
 

The sound data report has the seat location for stand data during Einstein and arena location for the dome floor during divisional eliminations. The data I reported above for div. elims. had locations of sections 111 to 114 rows 1 to 35, which is in Curie.

I don't have anywhere the quantity of data I'd like to have. This exercise was not only a scientific study but a training exercise in scientific studies, consequently we have not enough data.

It would be my recommendation that SLMs be placed at the most intense focal points of the speaker columns in the stands so that audio operators can properly maintain levels as conditions change.

Many decades ago I spent my teenage years working in a radio station and doing a lot of sound work in large arenas. It was great fun learning how the inflow/outflow of people can change the demand quantity of power delivered through a PA system. The amount of power needed in a dome full of people would crush your head in an empty arena. I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir here, but for those that are not familiar with these systems - you have to have an operator on station full time if there is an inflow/outflow of people, like during the prelims, and divisional finals. That is what we are paying the audio people for.


Ed

Re: Who would be the proper person to contact...
 

Ah, well that would be our head mentor. I am attempting to take things OFF her plate, not put them on it, so I may see if other routes work first. I don't want this to have to become her cause - she has plenty to do already.

Re: Who would be the proper person to contact...
 

Ed, thanks for fleshing all that out, for taking the measurements in the first place, and for approaching UL on it - I didn't even think of them but that makes a lot of sense. While it's nice that local venues may have standards, I suspect those standards probably apply to noise outside the venue that might affect the public (not an issue), and for sound levels for events which might last a couple hours. Our event is unusual in that we have loud music and amplified voices and sounds over a sustained period of 8-10 hours for 2-3 days at a time.

We were also in Cuire, but we were in the 117 section - right under the speakers in the front row. I suspect the sound was considerably louder right under the speaker stack. Of course that was also the best place to scout from :)

Cheers,
Lee

Re: Who would be the proper person to contact...
 

We were in front in the Curie division and our ears were in pain for much of the time (we resorted to torn pieces of paper towel in our ears). The sound guy was down below oblivious to things going on while he watched movies on his laptop like Princess Mononoke, etc (with earphones).

On the field was another story - you couldn't hear very much of what was coming out of the speakers.

When some of our team sat in a section of Einstein, those who were primarily in the pits were covering their ears for dear life while those of us who had been mostly in the stands found the levels bearable by that point.

Re: Who would be the proper person to contact...
 

Volunteer to do the posting on Q&A next year. It doesn't have to be the head mentor's job to do that.

Re: Who would be the proper person to contact...
 

Good idea, I'll ask her if that's one of the jobs she wants to keep or not. I suspect she will want to keep that as that's the best place to get quick answers to rules etc. questions which fall primarily in her arena :) My goals is to tackle some of the non-robot-building tasks she does and there are plenty of those to keep many people busy.

Thanks for the idea!

Lee

Re: Who would be the proper person to contact...
 

On newton there wasn't any sounds at all the first day. the only music i could hear were from the other side. so i never really noticed it.

Re: Who would be the proper person to contact...
 

I do know that when we queued up for The Blue Alliance at Buckeye, our pants were literally shaking to the beat. While I'm sure it wasn't as loud as other regionals, it was pretty loud.

Re: Who would be the proper person to contact...
 

Thanks Ed.

As you probably know already, the systems hung in normal events (and the Champs appeared to be using most of the same hardware) has a fairly wide horizontal dispersion. In the configuration that is normally hung, I am guessing it is on the high side of 100 degrees. Unfortunately, in a stadium, with a standard SLM, it is difficult to identify direct to reverberant fields. I would suspect that most of the noise from the other fields is as you suspect, reflections from the open areas of bare seats and concrete.

Re: OSHA Noise Standards and FIRST Events
 

Is there any specific new guidelines or rules for FRC events (both regional and national) on volume levels at events?

Just checking in,

Lee Drake

Re: OSHA Noise Standards and FIRST Events
 

Not that I've seen, so far. This is a very important issue that needs to be stressed.

Re: OSHA Noise Standards and FIRST Events
 

I don't know of any official statement that has been issued by FIRST.

If I were given an opportunity to suggest guidelines for FIRST sound operators then off the cuff I might would say something like,

For normal competition field operations, normal sound levels should run 80 to 85 dbA with peaks at 90 dbA.

That is just an opinion. It would be good if other teams did sound measurements like we did at various events so we can trade notes as the season progresses.

Hopefully we can get a feedback mechanism to a specific person so that can transmit guidance to the sound operators in the upcoming events.

Ed

Re: OSHA Noise Standards and FIRST Events
 

Tell me what I need and how much it costs. I'd love to help get this moving along quickly.

Re: OSHA Noise Standards and FIRST Events
 

Tell you what. Sit tight for a few days and let us talk to our team partner - Extech.

Extech is the 'official' sound instrumentation supplier for team 1311 - Kell Robotics. Our primary instrument is the HD600 which is a top notch datalogger.

We also have a Sper "Sound Level Pen". I'm sure this Extech item will give equivalent or superior performance to the Sper.Extech Sound Meter

We will ask the Extech product manager about a special deal for FIRST teams wanting to work on this issue at the events. After we talk to Extech I will post the results of the conversation here so that we don't have a rush of folks plowing into Extech.

So please sit tight.

Best Regards,

Ed

Re: OSHA Noise Standards and FIRST Events
 

Lol, that reads like those ads during a tech-support call put on hold.

Anyway, good to hear. I'm in no rush, as I've got a million other things to prepare for the new season.

Re: OSHA Noise Standards and FIRST Events
 

Measured where in the arena?
If anything, I would like to see a little more effort at getting better audio in the pits. Usually the system starts out just barely adequate and then as the days progress, the audio guy is asked to pump it up to ear bleed level. Since the pit announcers are not pros, a good compressor on this mic input would go a a long way to making some improvement in the pit.

Re: OSHA Noise Standards and FIRST Events
 

For getting approximate decibel levels in a pinch, there are a few decibel-meter apps for the iPhone. I don't know how accurate they are, though.

Re: OSHA Noise Standards and FIRST Events
 

Team 2062 monitored and posted the sound levels at St. Louis, Milwaukee and the Championship events as part of our safety program. Yes, the sound levels were loud in the pits and in the stands. We actually monitored this on an ongoing basis during those events. In response to this we passed out free ear plugs from our pit area.
OSHA has stated that event related sound pressure levels (like FIRST events) are not governed by their organization, they do post guidelines as referenced earlier in this thread. The guidelines we use as a team to inform the other participants of the potential hazard and we make available, through our coporate sponsors, mitigation of this potential hazard.

Re: OSHA Noise Standards and FIRST Events
 

So far most of the complaints that were registered in this thread had to do with 2 things:

1) On-field noise so loud team members and team coaches couldn't hear each other.

OR (more frequently)

2) The giant speakers aimed at audiences caused the sound level to be too loud to hear each other talk, hear team cheers, and caused significant ringing and temporary loss of hearing in the ears for those who spent long hours in the stands.

Although it's wonderful of extech to volunteer equipment to monitor it, and we realize OSHA doesn't publish standards for events , this is not really just an event. Regionals and nationals last for more than 8 hours for several days in a row. This represents a significant cumulative decible level (which is what OSHA normally measures - as opposed to momentary levels). It's how long and at what sustained volume.

This needs to be addressed at the top levels by FIRST safety officials who should release guidelines both for measuring the levels and for enforcing the volume restrictions at both national and regional events. They monitor and make rules on every other aspect of safety, this should be no different.

Re: OSHA Noise Standards and FIRST Events
 

We have found noise to be an issue in the past and we as a team have expanded our safety program to address this issue and the potential long term affects. If this is an issue for your team earplugs are available. Monitoring equipment does not solve this issue but only brings is to light. Proper personal protective equipment needs to be available then to address this issue. Should FIRST take action to resolve this issue? Yes, I believe they should, but then to what level? The OSHA guidelines protect only the majority of the population. People could still have issues with this mandated level and then FIRST would be open to possible hearing loss claims because events were at or below limits. It would be nice if the events would be considerate of those people in the audience and turn the volume levels down voluntarily, but until then we, the teams, need to take the steps to mitigate the potential hazard. We need to work together to push for improvements and not mandates. FIRST has a good record of safety.
I would disagree with the last statement you made that FIRST monitors and makes rules on all other aspects of safety. FIRST leaves much of this to the teams to build their own safety program. Noise level monitoring and protection should be an active part of an all-encompassing safety program.

Re: OSHA Noise Standards and FIRST Events
 

Not bring immature or anything, but what is wrong with noise?

I Have only been in First for a year, but what I gathered was that we are trying to make science and math (in the form of competition) a rival of professional sports. Being energetic, while it may be noisy, is part of the game. Without cheering, there would be no spirit to the competition.

I can see that you're concerned with safety, but can it really be that bad? What about the people who do go to sports games? Should we be stting noise levels for NFL and MLB too?

This noise "problem" doesn't need to be addressed at all.

Re: OSHA Noise Standards and FIRST Events
 

It's not the noise that's the problem, it's the volume. Rock concert volumes can destroy hearing. While FRC competitions are not that loud, they are in some cases exceeding OSHA guidelines/rules, and over three days, there can easily be a price to pay.

You haven't been on the floor, have you? It's LOUD down there, loud enough that without the crowd noise, you still can't hear someone next to you without them raising their voice (or using your radio, if you are so lucky as to have one).

It might or might not be an issue, but what I think they're trying to do is monitor the noise so that the extent of the damage can be determined/DJs can be asked to turn the volume down a bit/FIRST can be asked to do that across the board.

Re: OSHA Noise Standards and FIRST Events
 

Woah, slow down, I know you are new to CD but do not say someone is wrong, say you have a different opinion.

Second, people can go deaf from load sounds and there is a diesease where people are sensitive to sound, I believe it is called sensory precessing diesease. The should be addressed because of the safety issues and to make the competition comfortable for everyone. The same goes for football, baseball, basketball and soccer.

edit: I agree with what Eric said.

Re: OSHA Noise Standards and FIRST Events
 

Maybe your regional isn't as bad as others, but at Buckeye last season, we couldn't hear each other yelling while we were in queue. Our clothes were shaking from the sound waves being emitted from the floor speaker. We even had to talk pretty loud to hear each other while in the stands. Yet you go to the pit area, and have to basically work silently in order to hear the pit announcements.

I understand that some semi-loud, energetic music helps make the event. But safety (coming from a safety captain) must always be first/FIRST priority. I don't know about you, but I'd like to leave the three-day event with my hearing still intact, thank you very much.

Although there's nothing wrong with noise itself, there is such thing as too much noise. Please don't make statements that something like this, which is clearly a safety issue, should not be "addressed at all".

Thanks.

EDIT: I agree with Alex and Eric above.

Re: OSHA Noise Standards and FIRST Events
 

I have been watching this thread for a while now and can't hold back my opinion. I think you guys are taking this way to far. First of all OSHA stands for Occupational Safety and Health Administration, which is primarily focused with safety levels at work. I don't see why, besides the fact that they have a sound standard, that they would be relevant.

The next thing I propose is that FIRST events are supposed to be loud. They are in the same domain as rock concerts and sporting events. I highly doubt any of you go to a basketball game and complain about it being too loud. Yet alone petition the NBA to make the music softer.

One of the things that makes FIRST events fun is the music and excitement and overwhelming feeling at the events. If we had competitions in a quiet environment like a chess tournament would people still want to go and watch?

The way I see it is a better approach if you are worried about the sound is to just bring earplugs. Or if you want to promote safety hand out earplugs. But going to the extent to try and get a deal on equipment to measure the sound levels seems excessive to me.

What ever happened to "If it's too loud then you are too old"

Re: OSHA Noise Standards and FIRST Events
 

How long do NBA games last as compared to an FRC event?

Sorry, we just assumed when we went to Championships that we wouldn't be physically assaulted for three straight days.

Making our students too old too fast by that mentality.

Coming and going in and out of the arena is not so bad, but we could only take a handful to Atlanta and some were dedicated solely to scouting meaning they had to sit in the stands throughout. We will definitely be taking earplugs next time...

Re: OSHA Noise Standards and FIRST Events
 

I think comparing a FRC event to a rock concert or sporting event is not a good comparison. Although the goal is to be like those events in terms of excitement, you're never going to fit a regional into the 2 hours of a concert or basketball game. A dangerously loud environment for 3 days straight is much harder on the ears than that same environment for just a few hours.

Mostly I care about the pit volume level. I'm totally fine with the field area being loud, but in the pits, I want to be able to communicate with the rest of my team without losing my voice and my hearing. Wearing earplugs isn't an ideal solution because they can make it difficult to communicate within the pits.

Re: OSHA Noise Standards and FIRST Events
 

I like it when it's loud on the field. However, 1276 require students to bring a parent or otherwise responsible 18+ year old, because our mentors shouldn't have to be chaperones outside of the pit. So, we have a bunch of parents who spend two or three days sitting in those stands, and while they enjoy the excitement, they'd like to leave on Saturday and have their hearing intact. I bet some other teams operate in a similar manner, and some parents/grandparents/other family members come to watch their kids/grandkids/etc. compete. The extreme loudness of the event will turn them off. And what about the community groups that bring kids to watch us compete (girl scouts, cub scouts, school outings etc.)? We don't want to turn them off either. I think it's entirely reasonable that we can have our fun, yet not scare these people away. :)

Re: OSHA Noise Standards and FIRST Events
 

I'm 19, hardly "too old". :confused:

I work the sound equipment at my church, which means occasionally going down to the band area during songs. It's not nearly the level that FIRST events are at, but it's loud. Now I don't have to subject myself to this for three days over periods of 6 hours or so. If I were, I'm sure I'd have to make a case to the church/band leaders to bring down the noise. But because it's less than 2-hours worth of noise once a week, I can take the beating.

If I go to an Indians game: #1, they don't have huge 6-feet speakers next to the cheese pretzel concession stand. #2, I'm not subjected to nearly the same amount of noise that I do if I'm sitting in the stands of a FIRST event.

As mentioned multiple times earlier in this thread, not every event has this sound problem, so to others, this may seem like it's being taken overboard. There are things like acoustics and amount of space and whatnot to take into consideration at each venue, and because of that, we can't expect the same sound levels to work everywhere.

Now maybe trying to compare this to OSHA standards won't work because this is not a work place per se, but I really think this is the same concept. We want a safe "workplace" so that we can all go home in the same physical condition (maybe better due to the excitement and energy) that we came with. I play games, so I like my hearing.

I really don't think this is being blown out of proportion at all.

Re: OSHA Noise Standards and FIRST Events
 

We need to work together to improve the situation. I agree that FIRST is trying to make the experience of science and technology the equivalent energy rush as of say a good basketball or football game. Yes, there is loud noise at both of these and yes, old people, like me, go to them. I know it is going to be loud at a FIRST event as it is focused on the kids and making it an experience for the kids. I wear ear plugs. I am in the pits and the stands and have been on the field. I scouted all three competitions we were in last year.
There are ways to change what we have for the better. I know that lowering the sound levels a bit will not please everyone. Some will think it is not enough yet others will think it is too much. It would be nice to be heard without yelling, but to what degree do we want to take this? Be careful what you ask FIRST for, because what you get, you may not want.
Hearing protection needs to be a part of every teams safety program. The team needs to understand the risks and use proper risk mitigation. Start at home, bring proper protection and then work with the safety officials to help with the entire picture. Make this a growth opportunity for your team and team safety. Our team has.

Re: OSHA Noise Standards and FIRST Events
 

Pit Announcements:

Pit admin should keep the audio at moderate levels AND transmit on a low power FM broadcast band transmitter. That way, pits in an especially "hard to hear the pit announcement" area can tune an FM radio (or personal MP3 FM radio) to the pit radio freq and adjust their local volume.

Re: OSHA Noise Standards and FIRST Events
 

Actually, if you do a little research, you'll find that people should not be subjected to impulses above 100 dB. 85 dB is the loudest that you can be subjected to for any period of time. This includes workers at rock band concerts. You'll also find a large number of musicians who have hearing issues because of their live performances.

I've never experienced this noise level at a First Event. I expect them to be loud. I expect people to be screaming and crazy for their team.

I think, just like in anything else, the folks involved in this should take care of themselves. If you are concerned, take earplugs. If you'd like to inform others, then have your safety teams post signs.

I agree that setting up monitoring, try to enforce the limits, and other actions that have been suggested are over-the-top. Perhaps, as someone else mentioned, this is just particular regionals - in which case someone needs to discuss it with them.

I understand the opposing argument, that we need to be "safe". However I am one of those people who think that we have taken "safe" WAY too far, and thrown out personal responsibility in the process. Just my .02

Re: OSHA Noise Standards and FIRST Events
 

1) FIRST controls the production company that runs the audio. This sound level is under their control, not the teams.

2) I have seen regionals that were about right, and some that were out of control.

3) And you absolutely WILL lose potential sponsors and mentors if you let the sound level get out of control.

This isn't a difficult subject. Production companies that know how to do this well will not have a problem getting it done. It is simply a matter of FIRST writing the rules and enforcing it.

Re: OSHA Noise Standards and FIRST Events
 

I will most definitely be getting some earplugs together for myself and to hand out. BUT, I don't think trying to protect the public's ear drums are "over-the-top" or extreme in any sense . Yes, I may sound like a crazed maniac, and you're welcome to think that. But trying to stop others who feel this issue is a hazard is not really a great thing to do, and sends out he message that if you find something that's wrong or out-of-place, you shouldn't try to fix the solution, you should just cover it up and leave it alone.

Not a good message at all.

Re: OSHA Noise Standards and FIRST Events
 

Personal responsibility is a fantastic concept, but it requires people to be able to make informed decisions. Many of the people attending a FIRST event will be children (FLL, scouts, girl guides, etc), rookie teams, sponsors, or parents, who may not know (and wouldn't even expect) that a regional will be as loud as some are. Without advance knowledge that an event is loud, people cannot make informed decisions.

So saying "protect yourself, bring earplugs" is fine, there may be people who would never expect they'd need earplugs at "that robot thing I'm going to this afternoon".

However, I fully agree with your opinion that some aspects of safety have gotten out of hand at regionals and in some cases are actually unsafe.

Re: OSHA Noise Standards and FIRST Events
 

Inquiring minds want to know - what aspects are out of hand ? specific examples ?

Re: OSHA Noise Standards and FIRST Events
 

I don't really see this happening...

Re: OSHA Noise Standards and FIRST Events
 

past tense. It has ALREADY happened !!

Re: OSHA Noise Standards and FIRST Events
 

May I run a laser show in our pit display if it only slightly damages the eyes of people who see it? If folks don't like it they can bring protective goggles next season. It will be really exciting to watch and everyone who sees the show will become really excited about robotics.

May I design a robot that occasionally flings chunks of lightweight material into the audience? The chunks will have low mass and high volume, and will only bruise people who forget to catch them (no broken bones or bits going into eyes). If anyone doesn't like catching them barehanded or is just too lame/boring to enjoy catching them, they can either wear a baseball glove, or a use a sturdy umbrella or some other shield. Don't worry about small children or infants - their parents are responsible for them.

May I put some electronics on my robot that might interfere with pacemakers in the first 20 rows of the audience? I'll put up a warning sign and I'll give out free Faraday cage shielding to any geezers who want to sit close to the field (or visit the pits) but who weren't smart enough to think ahead and bring their own shielding.

Oh, one last request ... May I turn up the event's "music" so loud that the volunteers around the field and the audience in the stands have their hearing damaged (just a little bit)? Saturday PM, Mr. Ross will leave the tournament with his ears ringing/damaged and his vocal cords shot; but if he spends a full day recovering, he has at least a 50/50 chance of not developing a full blown case of laryngitis. Don't those odds sound pretty good if some extra students get inspired?

Do I make my point? Turn the music down to safe levels. If it is loud enough to cause harm, it is too loud. The only question is setting the right level, not whether harmfully loud music is OK.

Blake

Re: OSHA Noise Standards and FIRST Events
 

Well-put. :)

Re: OSHA Noise Standards and FIRST Events
 

To bring this around again and introduce some added info...
1. Check out http://www.kellrobotics.org/files/Sound_2008.pdf where there is some data taken during the Championship. Please note the 6-8dB average to peak readings. This is about the amount of compression audio mixers employee to keep the average level sounding loud.
2. Long exposure to high level sound casues temporary threshold shift. (i.e. loud today doesn't sound as loud as yesterday)
3. OHSHA standards look at weighted (filtered) data averaged over time (8hr/day, 5 day week). They recognize 85dBA as loud and 90dBA as harmful repetitive exposure requiring hearing protection.
4. Noise above certain levels causes permanent damage. i.e. A nerve is damaged beyond repair or a sensor will give false data forever (ringing).
5. In the real world, speaker systems do not cover a sound field with uniform sound level. Those in direct line with the front of the speaker array usually will experience the highest sound level. Sound designers on occassion will use "fill" speakers to cover a difficult area like that directly beneath the main array.
6. Speakers on the floor are usually sub woofers which reproduce sound below the frequency response of the A weighting filter and are therefore not included in the data. They move a lot of air and do seem to move clothing when standing nearby but do not contribute significantly to hearing loss at normal levels. They do allow you to "feel" the music though.
7. It is evident from the data, that levels jumped during cheering and matches.
I think it is evident that there is an issue with high levels during some parts of the day and average levels are on the borderline of needing hearing protection. That does require some action to be taken in my opinion. Overall levels could be reduced by a few dB and certainly levels could be reduced during those times that cheering takes place so as to not disrupt the overall feel of the competition but hearing is somewhat protected. For those who will spend a lot of time in the stands please encourage hearing protection of some kind during the day. McMaster Carr has a fine selection of disposable protectors. I keep part number 9159T5 headphone types for comfortable everyday/all day protection and 54725T32 disposable for short periods like camera and floor people during Soundstage tapings.

Re: OSHA Noise Standards and FIRST Events
 

Yes, and many of the field personnel and working and therefore OSHA is directly relevant. This includes volunteers.I do bring earplugs, and team 1676 does hand them out. I can't stand the volume without them, honestlySorry, this just sounds irresponsible. For a 3 hour concert, OK, but for a 3 day event, if it is too loud, then it is too loud.

The next steps would be for teams to carefully monitor sound levels and report their findings, be sure to use a decent instrument (cost about $100 or more) and take careful notes of the placement fo the sensor. Then we can compare notes to determine IF there really is a porbelm or not. If there is a problem, I am sure it can be managed.


Don

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Re: OSHA Noise Standards and FIRST Events
 

Wow, this thread really hits home for me. I was in light construction for thirty years. Just power saws and airguns. Now i am 48 and wearing two hearing aids.Wish i knew then what i know now.
Lets say you really like robotics and you get lucky and join a team that goes to two regionals and nationals every year.Your brother is on the team so you get to tag along in 8th grade and you come back your first year of college. So that works out to 42 days of comps or 336 hours of noise. Add in working in shop and off season events. I would say getting some hearing damage is a good possiblity. Remember, just a little damage early in life can come back to bite you later. Protect your hearing just like you protect your eyes.

Re: OSHA Noise Standards and FIRST Events
 

Thanks for the clarification. If you say it's not going to bust my eardrums, I'll believe you. ;)

Johnr, just about everyone I know that lost their hearing says the same thing. They wish they would've known back then what they do now. We've got thousands and thousands of students, not to mention the younger spectators or the older ones. Protecting them now will save a lot of hassle in their later years.

Re: OSHA Noise Standards and FIRST Events
 

If everyone on this thread takes the time to measure and record the sound levels at every event we are at this year like our team did last year. We can present a case to FIRST that the noise levels are indeed to loud at these events. Some key elements that have to be recorded to make the reading valid are:
1 – Calibration date and recalibration date on the measuring device.
2 – Placement of the device
3 – Time schedule for taking the reading (Once every hour on the hour or every 15 minutes). Readings can not just be taken at the loudest times. There has to be a plan in place and you have to stick to the plan.
4 – Record the serial number, model number and manufacturer of the device and the scale that is used for all readings.
5 – If there is training for the usage of the device this also has to be recorded as being taken by the person who is using the device.

If everyone takes action to record the findings we can present a case with data to FIRST. Maybe just the sight of sound measuring equipment at the events might cause some events to turn down the equipment.

Re: OSHA Noise Standards and FIRST Events
 

After watching a few matches, I'll retreat for a bit to let the sound headache subside. I do wish I could stay longer.

Re: OSHA Noise Standards and FIRST Events
 

You are going to have to add some additional specifications for this test to be meaningful. Taking measurements during a match with large teams (or near a cheering team) is going to be a lot different than between match music and announcements. Venue size, shape, and accoustics are also going to be a challenge.

Re: OSHA Noise Standards and FIRST Events
 

Enough words, we need action. I will work out a plan so that measurements can be taken at any event and in a way that measurements can be equated in some manner. I have an acoustic measurement expert where I work that can help me design the test criteria so that any team can fill out the forms. I will include my international counterparts in the development of the test criteria so that we do not miss anything and so that we use harmonized testing criteria suitable for data collection anywhere in the world.

We will need teams to take the lead on collecting the data during as many events as we can.

I know my team will be at the Wisconsin regional and one of the Minneapolis Regionals, but if we could have at least two teams taking readings at every event we might be able to address some of the loud team issues and get to the back ground noise concerns.

I will post my personal e-mail to this thread when the plan is worked out and anyone who wants to be a part of this data collection can send me requests for the plan and data collection spread sheet. After the events, everyone can send me the collected data to this account.

I can combine all the data into a spreadsheet and a summary presentation that will be presented to FIRST.

Lets take action to address this safety concern!

Re: OSHA Noise Standards and FIRST Events
 

I posted a question to the official FIRST Q&A in "Section 3 -At the Events" tonight.

I cited this CD thread and asked whether FIRST will monitor and limit the levels from sound systems at this year's events.

Re: OSHA Noise Standards and FIRST Events
 

I'd like to thank everyone who has worked so hard to bring this glaring problem to light. During the AZ regional my family (who were supposed to be inspired) left because of the high noise level. I was the human player for two years in a row and wore ear plugs the entire time--despite this I still had ringing headaches all day and had ringing in my ears for days later.
This is Not exciting; it's nauseating. I would recommend a sound system which peaks at 80db--this sounds much more reasonable would still provide excitement.

Note: I don't attend sporting events or rock concerts so I have no basis for comparison. I am 19 years old so I am not just a "cranky old man".

Re: OSHA Noise Standards and FIRST Events
 

This is an update to my earlier thread. I am in the process of formulating the control document and a simple excel spreadsheet that can be used to record data for the 3 days of any event. I will have suggested times to record data at a time interval, once and hour, where the people recording data can still be a part of the event and watch their teams. Being flexible and getting the data are two clear deliverables from this endeavor.

Re: OSHA Noise Standards and FIRST Events
 

I like the noise. It pumps me up. Knowing that everyone is pump to be there and ready to go, gets me goin' also.
I mean, what would robotics be if i didnt go home with a hoarse voice and ringing ears :)

Re: OSHA Noise Standards and FIRST Events
 

safe !

Re: OSHA Noise Standards and FIRST Events
 

I know you've already taken your licks for this, but I'll go ahead and add another vote for "I'm not too old, it's actually too loud." I had the pleasure of refereeing the Buckeye Regional in 2008. I'm in no way averse to the noise at sporting events, concerts, and whatnot, so I was surprised that by Friday afternoon, my ears were not just ringing, but aching. I eventually tracked down a pair of earplugs, but they limited my effectiveness as a volunteer; team members and the other referees found it difficult at times to get my attention. It's not fun to be in the position of having to decide between performing my job to the best of my ability or not suffering immediate pain and possible long-term damage. In fact, that's what OSHA is for. For this reason, I strongly encourage FIRST to enforce reasonable limits on volume at their events.

(For what it's worth, I also refereed at the Midwest Regional and the Championship. I did not find the volume level at these events to be anywhere near painful, and it looked like everyone participating was still having a blast.)

Re: OSHA Noise Standards and FIRST Events
 

Attached you will find the measurement document and rational for why it is to be done this way. I used experts from the US and Europe in developing this document and if this document is followed to take the measurements we will have credible data to go to FIRST to make our point that the noise levels need to be controlled. I am working on the spreadsheet yet and will post that in a few days.
My e-mail is megasparks2062@yahoo.com

Re: OSHA Noise Standards and FIRST Events
 

I'm a little disappointed in FIRST for the sound levels. It does seem to be a little too loud. Personal I don't have a taste for any of the music that the play, and it seems like ear protection would be unsafe in the pits since it's already so hard to hear some one yelling at you over the music.

Just a thought, but has anyone ever added something about sound at the competition, not just the sound levels in the shop to a safety video?

Re: OSHA Noise Standards and FIRST Events
 

Ok, I like the idea and I am blown away by the work that went into this. Sparks. Now, how much does a good measurement device cost? Do most schools have them in the band or choir? Just a few questions to confront when agreeing to take the data. Personnally, I can't wait for the sounds to be reasonable and will try to work out some way to help with the dreadful situation.

Re: OSHA Noise Standards and FIRST Events
 

full disclosure: somewhere well up this thread I mentioned that Extech partnered with our team last year to do some sound measurements at the Championship Event. I mention that because they kindly donated to our team the HD600 logging meter system. And since they were so gracious it would be unkind to not mention them.

They have a nice low cost instrument here

We also use the Sper Sound Pen here


We also use the HD600 from Extech. This is a much higher performance and pricier item.

For this exercise I'd probably go with the low cost Extech above, about $ 87.

Re: OSHA Noise Standards and FIRST Events
 

eBarker,
Thanks for the costs you looked up. These costs are in line with what I found. The calibration of the device is the critical part of the tool. It needs to be in calibration during the time of the events.

Everyone,
I have the spreadsheet in order and am attaching it. Please note the file naming that needs to take place and please, please include your team number in the spreadsheet. We at 2062 will give credit to all the teams who help with this, as this is for everyone in FIRST by everyone who helps.

Please download the 2 documents, get familiar with the requirements and either post questions here or e-mail them to me or both. I will try and check out this thread regularly.

Re: Who would be the proper person to contact...
 

While this is a big concern, I truly wouldn't mind the sound levels as much as I do currently if they didn't play the same 20 songs on a continuous loop....

Re: OSHA Noise Standards and FIRST Events
 

I agree that the play list should be expanded beyond the top 20 songs because over the three days it does get rather boring and bothersome. The part of the team that has to sit in the stands and scout is subject to this from 9:00 AM till the last match is over and I have seen regionals go past 5:00 PM. 8 hours, even with earplugs, does not make this any more palatable.

Thinking back, over the last two years I have not come away from an event where I have not been horse afterward from having to yell over the noise.

Re: OSHA Noise Standards and FIRST Events
 

We have been heard! http://frcdirector.blogspot.com/2009...h-for-you.html

If there are any noise problems we can talk to pit admin or any truly loud event from the past can be reported to Bill now.

Re: OSHA Noise Standards and FIRST Events
 

This is wonderful news! We also need to be active and present facts. Loud is relative without data. If we find events that are loud please follow the recommendations in Bills Blog linked above. If you want to use the spread sheet to record data and present it to PIT Admin, please do so. Using the standardized forms and measuring locations will help FIRST keep things within limits. You can also e-mail me the results. Good data will help protect and make FIRST events safer for all!

Re: OSHA Noise Standards and FIRST Events
 

I'm happy to report that sound levels at Buckeye Regional this weekend were completely tolerable. The pits PA a bit louder than the field, but in general things were greatly improved from last year.

Re: OSHA Noise Standards and FIRST Events
 

They've removed the unnecessary speakers from the floor this year, and kept the music from being too loud, yet loud enough to feel the mood. I appreciate the consideration of our concerns regarding this matter. A big thank you to FIRST, the hired sound techs, and those mentors, students, and viewers who've voiced their opinions.

Hopefully they'll keep it from getting out of hand from now on. :)

Re: OSHA Noise Standards and FIRST Events
 

I would also like to thank FIRST for dealing with this safety issue! I was at the Wisconsin Regional and you could actually talk to people in the stands. The music was at a very tolerable level.

Thank you FIRST!

Re: OSHA Noise Standards and FIRST Events
 

Pittsburgh was pretty good as well, but many of us still walked away with throbbing headaches from the constant cheering of our neighbors behind us in the stands for two days. Spirit is great, but this was just a bit *too* much for us to take. Unfortunately, moving wasn't really an option for a variety of reasons. Still, I'd rather have had this problem than too loud of a PA system.

Re: OSHA Noise Standards and FIRST Events
 

FLR was quite tolerable, with it getting too loud only occasionally and for a tolerably short amount of time. They could have bumped the music volume a notch or two for some of the popular dancing songs to keep people occupied while fixing field start issues without it being too loud :). Looking forward to seeing how the Maryland Regional goes and Atlanta.

Re: OSHA Noise Standards and FIRST Events
 

Yeah, that's kind of like sitting in a theater in front of a guy who talks in the middle of the movie. Some talking can be acceptable, but it should be kept at the right volume and should not last for the duration of the movie.