Future use of cRIO?
 

I believe that the cRIO is set to be reused every year for at least som set of years, so would that have any implications on the placement and build of the the robot, since it has its own requirements and we have to move it from robot to robot on testing and demos?

Re: Future use of cRIO?
 

I heard this too, but I think it is only a rumor.

Just as the deployment of the cRio to teams has not yet been finalized - I believe that the decision on whether or not to give one as mandatory in the kit has not yet been made.

I personally hope that they decide to make it mandatory since that might lower the cost for everyone.... and I think 90% of teams will want a new one each year.

but then again that means that teams that don't want it or even worse - can't afford it have to get one despite their objections.

but the counter-counter argument is that if it is mandatory then they can mass produce with certain numbers (+- the growth of FIRST) and thus lower the cost.
If it is a team choice then the numbers may vary wildly from year to year and they will have to produce in small numbers which is more costly.

Has getting a controller in the kit ever been a team's choice in the past?

-Leav

Re: Future use of cRIO?
 

I went to the mentor's meeting (as I am a future mentor) of the new cRIO and control system in Atlanta on Thursday night. They mentioned that the cRIO will be more expensive than our current control system, but many of the parts in the cRIO are being donated by the vendors. They said at this point, teams should look at reusing their controller year after year, but they will have the cRIO available for purchase, you know... if for some reason your cRIO breaks or your team likes to keep your robots together year after year.

So basically... I believe they intend to "give" teams only one cRIO, and they can purchase additional ones as they like. So I believe you will reuse them year after year.

Re: Future use of cRIO?
 

RyanN is correct, their current plan is to give one controller to teams to be reused every year, while teams can buy an additional controller every year at an immensely reduced cost.

Re: Future use of cRIO?
 

With teams only getting 1 cRIO; in the years after 2009 will the price of the KOP be different for rookies and veterans?

Re: Future use of cRIO?
 

I had already stated that I was fairly certain about this part.

My question is how it will affect demos and build of robots.

Re: Future use of cRIO?
 

It would mean that we'd have to keep programs around so that if there was a call for the 2009 robot in 2010, we'd pull the unit from 2010 and put in on 2009 with the 2009 code, then switch back.

I'm not so sure that's a wise move. Maybe all teams get two, then it's get your own would be better. Sometimes demos come up suddenly while the robot isn't there. Two would make sure that practice robots could be built, or old robots kept alive for another year for demo uses.

Re: Future use of cRIO?
 

The pricing isn't finalized yet, so noone knows. But my guess is that NI will supply the cRIO in the '09 KOP at a huge expense on their part, and that future KOP money will offset that expense, meaning that the price would be the same.

Re: Future use of cRIO?
 

A modular system that can be swappable between all your robots sounds like it would be your best bet. Of course, you would have to reprogram it for each robot, which would take all of 2 seconds with your laptop right beside you. As more and more information become available, you can start designing a modular system.

My only question is... will all the other components be reused, or will they be provided new? If the cRIO isn't going to be given each year, what about the power distribution board or the I/O boards? If they are given out each year, then this will make a reusable system much easier to build, and a simple plug and unplug setup will work fine and will be reliable.

Re: Future use of cRIO?
 

I don't know about you guys but when 2010 comes around the corner I can tell you now that the 2009 controller isn't coming off of our robot! :)

It might be a bit expensive but come on.... unless the cRio costs significantly more than the current controller I think it is highly reasonable to purchase a new one each year.

a functional demo robot is almost worth it's weight in Dollar coins (in getting new students, mentors, parents and sponsors)!
That is much more than the price of a controller no matter how they price it....

-Leav

Re: Future use of cRIO?
 

Depending on how far you go with the cRio you could always install the IFI controller on the demo robot.

Re: Future use of cRIO?
 

my issue with this stems from the fact that it means that the new controller will not be upgraded for years. I see this as FIRST getting into the same issues which pushed them away from IFI. Locking into a controller for multiple years while important for teams makes them majority supplier dependent. If it truly is the case that NI is only going to give one controller in the first year and then recycle them for financial reasons, I hate to see the year that NI is not doing well. Seems to me that this would indicate some hesitance in having the whole program on their backs financially.

I hate the idea of only getting one controller, as it raises many issues which teams don't currently have. As many would happen demo robots become difficult, helping pre-rookies at off-season events becomes impossible, and it puts a huge liability on teams breaking their controllers as most could not afford replacements (in the past 2 years teams could use older controllers if they needed to).

For lack of a better way to describe it this seems really cheap on behalf of NI and/or FIRST.

Re: Future use of cRIO?
 

How would you expect teams to break the controller?

Re: Future use of cRIO?
 

Bad wiring and unexpected loads on the connections seem to be the two biggest killers of the IFI controllers. Both happen to a nonzero amount of teams every season in spite of their best efforts, rookies and veterans alike.

Re: Future use of cRIO?
 

Dropping metal shavings in a sensitive spot.

Miswiring of power and consequent electrical fryage.

Accidentally drilling through it.

Fatal EMI induced by nearby arc welding.

Mechanical impact on a plug-in module.

Corruption of firmware.

Water damage.

Never underestimate the ability of a team of high school students and engineers to break expensive things.

Re: Future use of cRIO?
 

I learned many years ago never to underestimate the abilities of a team of high school students and engineers working together.

The 'breaking expensive things' is an added bonus. :)

Re: Future use of cRIO?
 

Screwing in program cables and then running autonomous... oh wait, no more serial cables :D

Re: Future use of cRIO?
 

The mechanical impact I know won't kill it unless you go at the plug-in module with a jackhammer.

Re: Future use of cRIO?
 

In Atlanta they were careful when doing drop demonstrations not to drop the cRIO on the exposed DB connectors. Broken and bent pins, especially when the bumpers for the .1" pin header conversions are attached, will be a not uncommon occurrance.
The other sides of the cRIO are pretty solid.

Never underestimate the power of a robot to gut itself...:)

Re: Future use of cRIO?
 

The datasheet is kind of irritating in that regard. It says six different directions. One would imagine it means all six sides of the module including the side with pins.

Re: Future use of cRIO?
 

The FIRST IFI controller retails for ~ $400
The NI cRio retails for $3900 without modules

Re: Future use of cRIO?
 

Actually I was basing my statement on the RC+OI+2 Radio Bundle... which is over $1100 plus some minor additional items which do not contribute a major cost factor.

I was thus assuming:

1. The cRio's cost will be greatly reduced for FIRST teams
2. The IFI controller's cost is not greatly reduced for teams
3. The cRio kit price includes the driver station and router(/whatever they stick on there)

These assumptions may not be true but if they all are (and that is not so far fetched in my opinion... then the price of the cRio will not be much much more than that of the IFI RC. even a $2000 price tag would not deter me from trying to get a new one each year. at least for the first 3-5 years. (by then the controller probably will be changed or updated anyway).

-Leav

Re: Future use of cRIO?
 

Where are you getting $3900 for the NI cRIO? I looked through the NI website, and found:
Integrated 400 MHz Real-Time Controller and 2M Gate FPGA for $2999.00
32 Channel Digital I/O module for $349.00
32 Channel Analog Input module for $799.00
8-Channel Relay, 60 VDC/30 Vrms, 750 mA (Relay Outputs) $299.00
As for the Pulse Generation... I guess we use the Digital I/O...

I'm also being generous on the ports, there are much less in the actual system.

Add this up and you get $4446.00 total, and all of these are modules, so if any single part breaks, you can replace it... and also, the FIRST Modules should be much cheaper, or will be made cheaper to FIRST teams. <-Talk about a run-on sentence...

Re: Future use of cRIO?
 

I don't think the 907Xs (which is what the FIRST controller is based on) have heat sinks, only the ones with the reconfigurable chassis have the huge heatsink.

Re: Future use of cRIO?
 

Oops, my bad... I edited out a part after I found the integrated systems and forgot to take that part out... I'll fix it right now.

Re: Future use of cRIO?
 

I'm glad to see that not everyone was fooled into thinking the cRIO is indestructible. They certainly aren't. Each of these methods has a decent chance of damaging the fundamental monolithic backplane, and that will be a somewhat expensive lesson to learn. Rugged != Indestructible.

Greg McKaskle

Re: Future use of cRIO?
 

This will pose an interesting problem to teams who like to build 2 bots every year.

Re: Future use of cRIO?
 

Oops, my bad. I was going off of something else I read. I should check those facts first <SG>

From the looks of it, we will be using the DIO ports to generate PWM signals (Gosh, I hope there is no latency in the bus).

Anyways, The NI page shows a 30% discount for 100+ unit sales ... I wonder if FIRST will setup an account so that all FIRST teams will get at least this (if not more) discount.

Re: Future use of cRIO?
 

I imagine that the discount to FIRST teams will be much greater, preferably just the cost of parts with maybe $100 in revenue. There can't be $3000 worth of stuff in a little box, my cheapo dell desktop computer was only $450 or so, and has a lot more stuff with it, unless I'm missing something really big...

Re: Future use of cRIO?
 

From the looks of the digital side car, all PWM outs are connected to a chip labeled U2, so that should be the final stage of the PWM generation (or it could just be a buffer). What signals the FPGA and DIO modules send to drive that IC, I am not sure.

Re: Future use of cRIO?
 

True, but I bet your cheapo Dell is sold in far larger numbers than cRIOs.

For reference, a new IFI control system (at retail) presently goes for $1,146.71. That doesn't include a power distribution system (the old panel from 2005-2006 ran $84.95, per the same page) or Victors (which, it seems, will be a constant). It's my sincere hope that we won't have to shell out anything much past that to convert an older robot to the cRIO system. It won't be the most fun we've ever had with our money (excluding travel subsidies, our 2008 budget was right around $10,000), but I can definitely see the value proposition for teams to pursue it.

(Which brings about another question: Who says a couple--or trio, or quartet--of nearby teams couldn't buddy up and split the cost of a cRIO unit?)

Re: Future use of cRIO?
 

I'm certainly not the expert, but here is my understanding. The circuit for generating the various PWMs, along with safety overrides is in the FPGA. The FPGA clocks state data out to the DIO, which is versatile, but not terribly fast or high current. To have the current to drive the victors, the signal gets boosted in the side car.

The internal cRIO bus is clocked at 40MHz, so latency isn't much of an issue.

Greg McKaskle

Re: Future use of cRIO?
 

U2 is a LV540A 3-state Buffer/Driver.

Data sheet can be found here.

They are, most likely, using it as a buffer for the DIOs to protect them from whatever students tend to do to electronics :eek: .

In other words ... it looks like FIRST will be using the DIOs to produce PWM equivelent outputs through a buffer circuit and that that buffer circuit is there to protect the DIO.

Re: Future use of cRIO?
 

Billfred is correct, I'm sure.

In regards to price, someone made a similar comment. The result. I'm thinking $3K of programming goodies is pretty good, if it's in the KOP one year and the KOP price isn't changed.

Re: Future use of cRIO?
 

Billfred is correct... I know a few people that have my exact computer. (Hey! Who has a Dimension 2400???) I also forgot to add in the cost it takes to fabricate the whole system, as these are probably not made in China, and are made here in the USA. It also seems that NI and LabView are very well known in the industry. I know of three large corporations that use LabView to control large machines (Dupont is the one that comes to me first), so the quantity NI makes control system's is fairly large, but our particular system will probably be as large as any other particular system NI produces (Just speculation).

I'm also not including the programming software, and I hate to see any teams that purchase LabView on their own, as I just recently saw their prices. OUCH!

As far as Team Fusion goes, I believe we are able to afford a new control system every year, as our finances seem to be increasing steadily every year. I do know that most teams near us will not have the same benefit as us to afford a $3000+ control system every year plus a new KOP, 1 Regional, and the Championship.

Also to touch into the ruggedness of the system... I'm very satisfied to say that I doubt many teams will be able to destroy their system apart from ripping a port out. The cRIO is very heavy, and I was astounded by the weight when I first picked it up in Atlanta. I believe the controller's casing is cast iron with a thick powder coat of paint on the outside. I'm not sure if the metal case is necessary, but it will make it much harder for teams to drill through or jigsaw in half.

If teams find that it cost too much to buy a new cRIO every year, there is another system that all teams are still familiar with that should still be on sale, our old trusty IFI system. I do realize that there are limitations to the IFI system once we move to the NI system, but you can probably have a 90% functioning robot with the IFI system, minus the bandwidth and the camera abilities.

Re: Future use of cRIO?
 

I thought they said it was SLS. That can be metal, can be nylon. The pictures I've seen indicate something resembling the latter. I'd say most of the weight is internals.

SLS is pretty hard to damage without a tool...

Re: Future use of cRIO?
 

I'm not sure what it was; I never heard anyone say what it was made of. I'm going off of weight, looks, and feel; however, I'm not a metal expert :D.

I'm also not sure what SLS is... I did a quick Wikipedia search, and found the most relevant thing was that it was used in toothpaste?!? Obviously not the same SLS.

Re: Future use of cRIO?
 

Selective Laser Sintering. Pretty much you take a powder (metal can be used, but nylon is perhaps more common) and burn it with a laser in a particular pattern, namely whatever patter will get you your part. Add another layer of powder, repeat. Repeat until you get your part. Shake off the unused powder and clean the part up.

Re: Future use of cRIO?
 

Sounds pretty cool! I guess we'll find out once more information comes out, or perhaps it's already out, but I have a Research paper for English calling my name... so I cannot look right now.

Re: Future use of cRIO?
 

The white plastic parts were rapid prototyped via SLS. I am head over heels in love with the fact that in the time it takes the board house to build my boards, the ME can design AND GROW its enclosure. Thank you Altium, Thank you SLS, Thank you Simon.

I am unsure of exactly what the material we used is. Production models will be injection molded.

I will tip my hat to the NI folk, but I believe the cRIO is die-cast, possibly sand blasted, and then painted. I don't believe it is cast iron; I'm leaning towards aluminum.

As for U2, Greg is absolutely correct. It simply adds current drive strength to the DIO. The victors require a few milliamps to turn on. A standard hobby servo signal requires almost no drive strength, and could be run without the buffering stage.

Re: Future use of cRIO?
 

Die-cast aluminum sounds much more appropriate. I knew the side-car and other external modules were quickly made prototypes, so I wasn't counting on anything final with those. I believe I was thinking earlier die-cast, but forgot the term and just said cast iron, but I did believe it was steel, but I guess it would be heavier than it currently is.

Again I'm very excited about the new control system, and I actually installed LabView 8.0 on my laptop today from the 2005 KOP (or maybe 2006), and was able to get a few things working. I'm going to look at it more this summer when I have more spare time.

Re: Future use of cRIO?
 

If it is white and was made by SLS it was probably Nylon 12 or possibly Nylon 11. Most service bureaus run 12 because it is easier to work with and excess can be re-used to some extent. 11 is much cheaper but cannot be re-used. This leads to some interesting economic/environmental tradeoffs.

For this application it doesn't matter much. In fact, it is hard to tell the difference in mechanical properties between the two. Each is better in some corner of the envelope, but the differences are smaller than the uncertainty in my designs.

There are other whitish SLS materials that are used sometimes. There is a styrene used to make patterns for casting metal and a rubber-like material has come out in the last couple of years. But they are unlikely to be used for this application

I have been working with SLS since around 2000. First as a customer and later getting it qualified to use on aircraft. I still get a kick out of getting a part that is exactly what I designed out of the machine with no labor on my part. Just ship the .stl over to Boris, he loads the machine with the file and powder and punches the button. Two to three days later I have a part. You should see the "toybox" I have at work with all the neat little gizmos we put in the unused corners of the builds.

Re: Future use of cRIO?
 

According to NI, the cost of purchasing replacement or extra cRIO controllers will be "drastically reduced". So much that it will be the same cost as what you would have paid for the old IFI controller system.

Re: Future use of cRIO?
 

That's a matter of record. Note that each team is expected to be eligible for only one discounted system each year.
Is this statement confirmed by something said by a National Instruments representative, or is it speculation on your part?

Re: Future use of cRIO?
 

To me...it doesn't make much sense to make 1000s of SLS parts when you can just have a mold made and get them injection molded. I believe the SLS was just a "prototype" cover. I could be compeltely wrong though.

Re: Future use of cRIO?
 

I can't seem to find the correct post to quote, but I distinctly remember someone from NI saying that the SLS cover was just a prototype and the real ones would be injection molded plastic.

Re: Future use of cRIO?
 

I believe you are referencing this post.

Re: Future use of cRIO?
 

Well, a representative spoke of it in this video.