Re: Adult coach?
 

And I think Ken is robbing student coaches of the chance to meet and work with students on other teams. In eight years of Scouting and four in FIRST I've really enjoyed watching young people develop maturity, character, confidence and communications skills. Allowing students to coach gives them a unique chance to internalize these things rather than just being inspired by sitting in the stands watching an adult do them.

I thought this horse had been beaten and put away. I'm still in favor of of a big-tent approach to the role of adults in FIRST, and I don't feel like I fail to understand any of this. Disagreeing with Ken on the use of adult coaches does NOT mean that I don't understand, it just means that I disagree.

Re: Adult coach?
 

It is my personal choice to have an adult. I think an adult helps to keep the driver meetings moving forward. This also helps keep the drive team focused. They can also help to make sure a teams robot gets on to the field. If you have a new drive team they need some one who understands FIRST and how competition works because steeping on to the field for the first time can be overwhelming. I am not opposed to having students coach but as a driver I prefer to have a mentor as my coach.

Matthew Simpson
Team 75 driver

Re: Adult coach?
 

Rick-

I wasn't trying to continue beating a dead horse. I thought this was a real story that helped to show that there are things going on in the FRC world that go beyond the on-the-field action. And that those things are supported by the on-the-field action and the mostly adult acquaintances/friendships that develop over years of competition.

What I didn't say is that I think this type of community/interaction is not replicated as well in other forms of student competitions/activities that I have participated in (Boy Scouts, Explorers, SAE MiniBaja, Formula SAE, AWIM, FLL, OCCRA, Vex, FutureTruck, ChallengeX). Its one of the reasons why FRC is so good for us, its unique.

Its okay with me that you disagree, in fact my opinion means nothing - thats one great thing about FRC, there's room for many approaches. However, if I run into some of your team's student coaches/drivers on the field of battle someday, I still might ask 'em what they're doing after high school. :)

Ken

Re: Adult coach?
 

What is it with this hilariously Sadistic metaphore?;) :yikes:

Re: Adult coach?
 

There is a lot of wisdom in this post. A whole lot. Sometimes it is good to rein in the passion and look at this through introspective eyes as Dylan has done. It made me think that the mix is good. If we had all teams with adults coaches or all teams with student coaches - the competition would become more limited, not allowing the levels of experience to work together and explore opportunities.

I would love to spotlight this whole post. It is a winner.

Re: Adult coach?
 

Andy,

There is a time and a place when a mentor needs to take the reigns and be the coach. That said, I also believe that there is a great learning experiance to be had by letting the students have full reign on the field.

Having a student as coach teaches that student about leadership and responsibility. It also teaches how to stand up to pressure (especially if a adult coach, from another team, is telling them to do something that they know their team cannot do well). Making a mistake, in this enviroment, is safe (but disheartening) ... making a mistake later on (as an engineer), because they haven't learned to make the big decision under pressure, could cost lives.

I push my students hard, but in the end they end up doing things that they never thought possible. Yes, there is a time and a place for the mentors to be on field coaches ... but I believe that there is more value in teaching a student to do that job.

JMHO

Re: Adult coach?
 

Our team, like and unlike many others, has always had a mentor play the role of coach.
That being said, remember this is only our fourth year.

Stated before, having a mentor as a coach helps because they can assign congradulations and criticism in (hopefully) constructive ways. In previous years Kevin (Kolo.... KoloJ) has been our drive coach which, imo, helped us a great deal. Unlike our students, he has been in FIRST for years, and has driven a great deal, giving him experience and 'wisdom of the feild' to pass on to us.

As for "robbing a student" of a possible job, I'm sure our team would allow anyone who they find capable of taking the position to become a coach.


And although some people are very against this type of mentor involvement, the driver-coach relationship stregthens the bond between students and mentors.

Re: Adult coach?
 

I agree. I have worked with both Ken and Dylan in elimination rounds of different events. Both were excellent coaches and it was awesome working with them. Both of them brought a something a little different to the alliance. I think it's actually inspiring either way with mentors or students. Working with mentors is definitely a plus, but a lot of times, communication may be better between students of the same age. I still don't know which is better lol. I guess I'm going to say whoever is best for the job and who can inspire their team as well as others.

Re: Adult coach?
 

There is no option for "It's a teams decision year by year". The question should not have % as every team is different every year. As it is a team then they should do what is best for the team.

Re: Adult coach?
 

I've been watching this thread and finally feel like I have thought about it and sorted out my thoughts enough to post my feelings. I apologize for the lengthiness of the post


I'll put one vote down for "if it's not my team, it's not my right, responsibility, or job to judge"

I have worked with the best of the best in the box and their age boundaries leave about as large of a gap as you can imagine in FRC. I have seen rock solid game winning strategies come from both ends of the spectrum. I have seen brilliant strategist and experienced coaches blown away by a rookie coach with an inventive new strategy.

As far as coaching goes, that two minutes and change in the box, it’s a case by case and team by team decision. But as far as my experiences have taught me, I am thankful for the experience and knowledge I gained from my adult coaches. Looking back on 3 years of drive time, from the moment I left the pit and headed to the field, the second I got into queue I was given the chance to listen and learn. And that time, whether it be 3 minutes or 30, that’s when my vote goes for experience and with that usually adults.

These friendships, bonds, and connections that Ken and others have mentioned; 98% of the time they happen through coaches that you are introduced to and mentors you meet through coaches you know.
I have been lucky enough to be able to make these connections, and make these friends in my years of FRC. To all those swearing by student coaching, I will give you strategy and some amount of poise, but that’s where my comparison ends and my choice becomes clear. The fact of the matter is this; I would not be the same student or person I am now if it wasn’t for the mentors I met on the ‘field of battle.’

Ken, Andy, and Dylan all posted in this thread, one after the other in fact. This is a perfect example of what I am talking about. I met Dylan AT FLR and he is in my opinion the best student coach I have ever worked with. I met Ken at FLR in 2005 after my first qualifying match as operator. I met Andy at the Championships in 2004. These are three of the best coaches in FIRST and each is a friend of mine. Two are Woodie Flowers Award winners, and one is going to go on to become a great mentor. You could put any one of these coaches on the field for a weekend with the same drive team, and I honestly don’t think that you would notice a great deal of difference between the overall outcomes. That is until you get into the experiences that go beyond the matches, the wins and losses, and the final seeding. Ask the driver that worked with all three coaches. He will most likely say, "Ee won a lot and lost one or two." But then ask him what he learned from each. The knowledge he will have gained from Andy and Ken from the moment he stepped in queue would blow you away.

And that is the difference I see between an adult and student coach. Whether they are a student or an adult, a coach is still a mentor. It's a mentors job not only to lead, but lead by example, much like any coach; leading, teaching, and inspiring kids in the box. For the three students that spend the time standing in queue with their coach, that 2 minutes and change spent on the field become utterly insignificant compared to the knowledge that they will gain before and after the buzzers sound.