Re: Adult coach?
 

First off, I don't see how showing that 6 teams on Einstein had mentor coaches has ANYTHING to do with the argument at hand. So they may have had a successful year. Not that I'm accusing any of these teams of doing this and I really respect what those students on those teams have managed to accomplish, sure if we really wanted to have a successful year then it would have been easy to have professional trained engineers run the entire team. But, success on the field isn't what it is about, is it?

As to having student coaches "crack under pressure" or ruin the team reputation is completely and totally bogus. I have worked with dozens of different student coaches, not once did I ever see any of them lose focus, look only at their robot, or do any other action that made their team perform to less than their potential. In addition to this, even if the student coach were to crack under pressure, isn't FIRST the program where you want the student to learn how to cope with pressure? The students that coach these teams will presumably be some of the premier engineers in the United States in the coming years, would you rather have them learn to deal with pressure when they are competing in a high school robotics competition, or when engineering a military helicopter?

...FIRST isn't about winning...

Honestly, as a student working with students, sure we were all bummed when things didn't work out on the field, but never did it make us wish we had more of it done for us. We took this experience and made our next match that much better, and the match after that even better, and then our educations and careers after that the best they could possibly be.

I am not trying to attack any team, or anyone. I simply want as many students as possible to get the experience from FIRST I have been able to receive.

Re: Adult coach?
 

1618 has always used an adult coach during my tenure. Both years, we've had a small group of largely inexperienced kids; as a result, I tend to provide more coaching abilities without tying up our more scarce resources (read: kids) that tend to be more skilled elsewhere.

Re: Adult coach?
 

I've been the coach for nine of the ten seasons I've spent with FIRST. My first year, I was a high school senior, but have been in that role as a mentor ever since. I did not coach in 2004 -- the only year to date I've not attended a competition since 1999.

I don't feel like this, particularly, means our team lacks depth or that we're not doing everything we can to inspire the students.

As an adult in this role, it's my responsibility to do much more than coach the team to a win whenever I can. I'm there to act as a buffer between my kids and other teams -- adult coaches can be intimidating, so I'm there to intimidate right back. :)

I also act as a mediator between the drive team and the rest of the group. I am not stressed by competition -- gross incompetence not withstanding -- and can protect the kids from a lot of the criticism and backseat driving that can sometimes occur after a match. That said, I don't sugarcoat my opinion of their performance. In Atlanta, I had to tell our driver that he'd played the worst defense that I've ever seen in all of my ten years.

I'm there to make sure that the criticism is taken constructively and to make sure that they move on after a loss -- though we're working on eliminating those entirely. I don't want the kids to beat themselves up over things like that -- it's not worth putting in all of the effort, resources and time to come to a competition and not enjoy yourself, regardless of how well you do on the field.

Above all, I take my job as a coach seriously and do everything I can to be prepared for a match -- but no matter what happens -- I'm there to make sure the kids have fun and are treated fairly. We're working to provide the experience of competing in this "Superbowl of Smarts" to the kids and one of my biggest roles in that is alleviating tension.

The students on our team get along terrificly, but I'd still be a bit worried that leaving them on their own during stressful competition could lead to unneeded tension and additional stress -- and those things do very little to further our efforts toward inspiration.

Re: Adult coach?
 

From my experience:

If you give a mentor a job, you are taking it from a student. If we have a teacher weld, it is taking it from a student who can weld. The only time we have a mentor working, is if there are safety reasons(the school complains) or if the only student that can do that job is busy with a different job. I agree with some of you when you say that the Adult Coach is working 'with' the drive team. However he is only working with the 3 kids left on the field. What about the kid that could be the Coach? He got replaced. He is working with three of the kids, but he is working for one of the kids.

A little story:
Have any of you played sports when you were little? I did, I used to play soccer. There was always the parent on the sidelines yelling at the kids and telling them what to do. We didn't enjoy this guy yelling at us. In fact, I don't care if he was right. Maybe I did miss something that would have helped my team to win. The only thing is, that my team was not there just to win. We was there to have fun. Any time you put an adult on the field, you are just taking a chance of taking the fun away. I have seen many adult coaches yelling on the field, I have yet to see a student coach yelling on the field. I am not asking you to have a student on the field necesarily, just try to make sure that whoever you choose to put out there is not taking away from the fun.

Re: Adult coach?
 

I have seen many students and adults yelling on the field. If you do not agree with "angry adult" coaches, I think everyone here would agree with your point, but I don't see how a student yelling is more beneficial.

But, I think these types of coaches are few and far between. Most of the mentor coaches I have come in contact with have been very respectable people, offering insight and inspiration not only to their kids, but the kids on all of the teams they work with as well.

If you don't believe me, just ask my drivers what they think of guys like Tim Baird. I have heard nothing but good things from them all year about working with him in Hartford.

I've seen them [drivers] adapt their play style based on what some of the mentor coaches have told them, and seem them 'keep it cool' when mentors were involved in the competition.

Re: Adult coach?
 

We've always had student coaches on the field for every match. It is just something that seems to work with our team. With a different team... with a different robot... or in a different situation, we would do it differently. I am really glad that FIRST gives teams the choice to use either students or adults in this role.

What I would really like to see, however, (and maybe this goes on at off-season events) is a mentor drive team vs. mentor drive team match... I think after a season of receiving "helpful tips" from us mentors, the students might enjoy seeing how closely we followed our own advice! And the mentors might have a better appreciation of exactly how challenging driving the machine and sticking to strategy in competition really is. I mean... it looks pretty easy from the stands....

Jason

Re: Adult coach?
 

FIRST is a sporting event. Yelling is part of sporting events. Why shouldn't the coach yell?

Unless the coach is cussing out the kids, or being grossly inappropriate, I fail to see yelling as being derogatory in nature.

Re: Adult coach?
 

You're right...FIRST isn't, but the FIRST Robotics Competition is. Otherwise it would be called the FIRST Robotics Get Together With Other Teams and Show Off Our Cool Stuff Event.

I bet there was an adult coach though that was running the team...

Re: Adult coach?
 

First off, Tom: I am not saying that having a student yelling is any better. Re-read the last line of my previous post.

Next, Cory: The reason the coaches yelling at a football game is seen as acceptable is because they are yelling a long distance. In FIRST, the coach is standing right next to you. There is no need to yell. If you think it is still 'no big deal' to have people down there yelling, have a friend or someone yell at you when you are taking a test(or doing something else that requires though) and see if it is 'no big deal'.

I am not going to say that all teams should have a student as a coach. I am just saying that all teams should consider what effect their particular coach is going to have on the game. And I would like to suggest that perhaps winning is not where you should focus. You should put the focus on the fun.

Re: Adult coach?
 

Have you ever been on the field during a match? Yelling is absolutely required at any distance greater than, perhaps, six inches.

Re: Adult coach?
 

I've been a driver, operator, human player, and coach. Like Madison, I would contend that yelling is nearly a necessity. If my coach wasn't yelling when I was driving, odds are I wasn't going to hear what they were saying. There's a difference between yelling at someone and yelling to someone, like I said in my last post.

Re: Adult coach?
 

Wow this thread started off with the right intent but again the cd world has gone to the far right and far left. Look guys every team operates differently. There is no right or wrong way to do this. What i love is first letting the team, decide how they should run their team. Just because you think your way is correct does not mean it's the only way. Just like the robots we build, just because we all play the same game does not mean we all have the same robot.:ahh:

Re: Adult coach?
 

When you are on the field, you should be doing everything (legal) you can to win. If that means a student coach is a better choice, so be it. But, also, if that means an adult coach is a better choice, so be it.

From what I've seen, adult coaches usually are better (not always); Guys like Copioli, Baker, Travis Covingtion, etc... have all been around a long time; they know what works, they know what they're doing and they get it done.

Re: Adult coach?
 

I make a distinction between yelling and shouting. Shouting is fine; it is sometimes necessary in order to be heard. Yelling implies to me a less than desireable attitude.

Re: Adult coach?
 

Hmm, 1676 too.
And I can tell you, it was a HUGE amount of fun. I'll always treasure that - Thanks Dan. Hope you're feeling better now (2 years later).
Yes, indeed. It IS a lot of fun, and gives a very different perspective on the game. Sadly, I leave that fun to the kids, since they're the ones we're theoretically doing this for.


Wow, you must have good ears or something to get as far as 6 inches...:D


Don

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