Re: Adult coach?
 

Our team has always had a student coach. We've been moving more and more towards student leadership on our team over the past few years, so I wouldn't expect to see this change. By no means am I denouncing adult coaches, though- I have met a lot of amazing and inspiring adult coaches who have incredible minds for strategy and do great things on their team. It's just that given the current dynamics and habits of our team, I don't think an adult coach would work out.

Re: Adult coach?
 

FIRST, The FIRST Robotics Competition, or any other FIRST program is not about winning. I'm sure I could spend my next two weeks finding hundreds of quotes from Dean, Woodie, and Paul stating this.

When we go to a regional or nationals, my team and I compete as hard as we can not to get mass produced medals, not to get congratulated on ChiefDelphi, not to boost our own egos, but to get as much out of the experience as we can.

With all the variables in team size, funds, mentor involvement, and straight out luck - its not as if the team that works the hardest will always win the competition. The fact that some teams cannot win the competition because they are at such a disadvantage through no fault of their own, yet they still come to compete against the more advantaged teams (and still get just as great if not better experience) is a testament to how well the FIRST Robotics Competition accomplishes what its about - Inspiring students in science and technology.

Re: Adult coach?
 

I'm not going to vote, primarily because any one of the choices could work, if the SAME team chooses to do so, year to year, event to event, or even in consecutive matches, make changes.
As far as yelling goes, if you've never coached a match before, you'd be surprised how even after yelling, your drive team still cant here you at point blank range.
Do I love coaching? Yes!
Should I coach? My only criteria is that we put the best, able, and willing person in that role.
In 2003, we were with Paul and Andy as teammates at CMP, and had a female student coach on the field. Why? She understood the game, demonstrated the ability to do it, and was respected/trusted by her drive team. She graduated in 2005.
Since then, I have been the coach again, simply because no one else on our team wants to do it and I love studying the game,strategies, and working with the other teams on game plan.
Our greatest moments this season: Strategizing against team 25 and 968 (2006 CMP finalist team) in beating them in the '08 Hawaii regional semifinals. Strategizing against team 968 and 233 as the defensive 3rd bot at CMP Newton quarterfinals. We lost, but not allowing Pink to hurdle once we got their ball for BOTH matches were an accomplishment in itself, considering in Hawaii, they pretty much scored at will.
Paul, Andy, and others mentioned in this thread are legendary. I'd like to add EJ of 254. Watch him coach as he actually spends more time working with his alliance partners than his own drivers during a match. In addition, I LOVE going against Shaun of team 25. He is another GREAT coach. One of these days, I hope we can be alliance partners (hint hint NJ'09) and stategize together. No offense Dave (team 103), we can be the third bot. :)

Re: Adult coach?
 

In the past, we've done it differently, but this year, we had a student for almost every match. The two exceptions were when we had one of our mentors, a college senior, as the coach.

Re: Adult coach?
 

Up until this year I went down with my team for three years as the coach and loved every minute of it. I agree with Glenn that the drive team doesn't hear you though. Good ones get in the zone and tune out advice they don't need. Besides helping with strategy before matches I found myself becoming more of a cheerleader especially when my driver said he doesn't hear anything I say during a match. I finally found a use when I counted down time for them, something very valuable. Knowing what a thrill it was being right there and seeing the change in rules that allowed students as the coach I stepped back this year and put another student in. I suffered from major withdrawals in the stands and found myself still screaming "advice" from afar but I felt good giving another one of my students that experience that only the drive team gets down there. Besides, my drive team does the "haka" before each match and usually dances around acting nutty to pump themselves up and to have fun. At my age, I have the acting nutty down but the dancing is out. It was a natural to get another student involved. I have nothing against adults being the coach however! I think its a nice way to recognize a mentor or teacher who earned the right. I've been fortunate to have a lot of experienced kids to choose from. If I had a lot of newbies I'd probably be back down there....and loving every minute of it again.

Re: Adult coach?
 

For our team, and previous teams I have been a part of, it has been 50/50.
The thought behind it: Whatever works.


It's like, okay last year we had a student coach, he wanted to do it, we didn't see a problem with that, we decided it would be a great way for students to network and learn quickthinking skills as well as networking. It's a great opputunity to have students meet others on other teams and learn from their experiences.

This year, it's been kind of a switcheroo, we had a college mentor be our coach one event, and students (like myself) for the others. If thats what seems to be better for the drive team, (i.e. in the situation being, the mentor seems to have more experience and for predicted better result should be put in there instead, mentor seemed to work better with other adult coaches in strategy sessions, etc.) we switched the student out.

Either way, honestly has it's perks. Thats why our team has done both and is open to both. Do you want to give a student the experience and oppurtunity? or do you want a mentor with a little more certainty to get the job done?

Re: Adult coach?
 

I know that 846 used to use an adult mentor as the coach but transitioned to a full student drive team and has stayed that way for the last few years. Only this year did I see an actual effective coach, and that was mostly because I was good friends with him, and because he has a very unabashed, outgoing personality. As the co-driver/Robocoach, I would also come over to help coach. I felt that rotating drivers within the team helped because we could see the other's mistakes and help coach. Our mentors do make sure to critique our driving off the field. The majority of the time I was driving, I was running off pure instinct, with only the important info relayed to me by our coach. I think for our team specifically, we operate better with a fully student drive team. On the other hand there are teams that have great adult coaches, bad adult drive coaches, great student coaches, and bad student coaches. It mostly depends on the makeup of your team.

Also, I just wanted to say I was really really pleased to be part of a very well coached drive team during qualifying matches in Hawaii. At the end of autonomous, all three of our robots (25, 359, 846) were caught up on the opponents finish line. The refs took some time to figure out which robots had fully crossed and which didn't. During that time, all of our coaches and drivers were communicating with directions for what to do once teleop started. As soon as the bell rang, we all did what we had to do and went on to put up some big points. It was great to see and hear these "big-time" coaches working with our student-only team. While it is exciting to work with these famous mentors, not every adult mentor can coach the same.

Edit: And to address other issues: 2 years of being a driver. 5 events driven. I've never gone home Saturday night (sometimes even by Friday night) without losing my voice. It gets ridiculously loud down there. And about never seeing student coaches yell....obviously you've never seen my drive team. We do this cool thing where we yell at each other, yell directions to the other drive teams on our alliance, and somehow still manage to operate fluidly...somewhat...most of the time.
Also, I've never had a problem dealing with pushy adult coaches. I usually do a good job getting a compromise worked out that benefits my team. It helps that I'm a little bit demanding sometimes....:D

Re: Adult coach?
 

This is my own observation about coaches. Many of the best coaches I have worked with in the past have the following traits. They are competitive, smart, aware, observant and experienced. I emphasize experience because just like in sports the coach needs to have an understanding of the game, and understanding to break down the game and also the other alliance. Experience also has a lot to do with how the coach interacts with alliance partners and his own drivers. From my experiences on the field the best coaches tend to be the ones that have been doing it for a number of years. This gives them a lot of experience. These coaches have a system in place for how they do everything on the field and off. These coaches often times see things many other people do not. This isn't to say good coaches aren't up and coming but these are the tendencies that i have noticed over the years that the high quality coaches have. In my opinion from these observations the best coaches are adult mentors.

Re: Adult coach?
 

Deaf ears from all the yelling no doubt.:p

One theme I am seeing in this thread is that there is no one best way, it depends a lot on how your team's dynamics work. An adult coach can be valuable as a role model, calmness and wisdom under pressure, someone to emulate. Buy that does not mean that students can't possess these qualities as well.

Don

Re: Adult coach?
 

As a driver in 2000, 2001, and 2002, I was coached by Brian Beatty on Team 71, and his insight into the game, his strategy sessions, and his approach to coaching were all huge inspirations to me as I transitioned from student to mentor. During my college career, I coached nearly every match that 1064 was in (sometimes switched with co-founder Lauren Halatek, former Wildstang Human Player), nearly every match that 1675 was in (sometimes switched with our lead teacher, who used to be a wrestling coach), and a large chunk of 1714's matches (more in 07 than 06, but whenever asked by their drive team). In 06, I actually coached both 1714 and 1675 in the eliminations, running from one side of the field for one quarter final match to the other side of the field for the next quarter final match (that didn't work out so well, and I won't do it again - its not conducive to good strategy when you get the two strategies mixed up!).

My background as a driver helped tremendously. My involvement with the build allowed me to make better decisions knowing how the robot was performing (or not). My rapport with the students made everyone comfortable and it was fun for everyone. There were times that I got too focused on our robot and missed something happening on the other side of the field that we could have done something about to change the outcome of the match - but there probably are few coaches who haven't had a similar experience.

Now that I have graduated college and moved into my professional career, this was the first year EVER that I did not step foot behind the lexan for a single match - not even a practice match. My involvement with the regionals on Thursday (inspecting) prevented me from coaching, and we wanted to be consistent between practice and qualifying since practice worked so well. One of our other teachers, who has never coached a sport before, stepped in and did a phenomenal job. His calmness behind the drivers allowed him to be a much more effective coach than I was. I assisted with strategy between matches and then updated him on my observations after each match. Needless to say, this was our best year ever, in terms of competition results.

I believe we had one match ever in the history of 1675 with a student coach. It went well enough, but we prefer to have adult mentors. Not only does the partnership continue on the field, but it just seems to work better with a more experienced mentor observing and communicating with the other coaches. Each team must find what works best for them, however, and each team will have a different story.

Re: Adult coach?
 

Before the starting sound effect, I'll be your best friend: I'll loan you tools, fix your code, carry your robot, mentor your students, help you with marketing, and share my food. Before a match, I am all about the fun of all of us doing robots together. When the doo-doo-doo-doo-da-doo sounds, I am all about the fun of winning (within the rules, of course). Losing is character-building, but I prefer fun.

Re: Adult coach?
 

I think I've said this in similar threads before, and everything else I think I probably would have said has been said in some fashion or other here, so I will just add this...

Anyone have any thoughts on trying to encourage FIRST to bring back the dual coach role (it used to be 5 on a drive team: 2 drivers, 2 coaches, 1 Human Player)? I remember the thrill of being able to coach as a student, right next to one of my favorite High School Mentors. It was a great experience, because I got to coach AND I got to work with a mentor. It didnt take away from the student's role, and the mentor can more closely monitor how the student coach is performing under pressure and step in to help when needed, but also step back when the student has gained the confidence and experience needed to lead the drive team.

Re: Adult coach?
 

I don't know Kim.
That's an awful lot of people down in the alliance station.
We've always been big on enabling our students as much as possible and never once considered putting an adult coach in. I don't know whether or not it will lead to a date on Einstein but that's not why we are doing this in the first place. We're proud of what we have done no matter where we finish.

Re: Adult coach?
 

That is a very interesting concept. I wonder what precipitated the change?

Re: Adult coach?
 

I think you've just perfectly summed up our team's philosophy. While (I should hope) the students are certainly grateful for the assistance and insights of the professional mentors during build- and off-season, we view competition as theirs to experience, not ours.