Adult coach?
 

Does your team normally have an adult coach in the drivers' station during competitions, or are all positions usually taken by students?
If you care to do so, please enlighten us as to the thought process behind your choice.

edit: This is by no means meant as a thread to discourage one method or another; just a forum in which different styles and the reasoning behind them may be discussed. Thank you for keeping this in mind.

Re: Adult coach?
 

What's the difference between Adults at least 50% of the time and Students at least 50% of the time? Aren't those two ways of expressing the same thing?</probable curiosity>

We have had both student and adult coaches in the past, but as a note, our adult coaches never have been over the age of 20-something, not by design, just by how it happened.

For instance, our amazing coach this year (Marc in this picture) was an adult, but just to years previous he was our driver.

It seems like people who have been drivers and operators previously are the best coaches... but a college student that can make it to all the events are REALLY hard to find. :ahh:

-q

Re: Adult coach?
 

If you use adults exactly 50% of the time and students the other 50%, then the two choices are equal. But if it's 51/49 or any other ratio, then only one choice applies.

Re: Adult coach?
 

1902 has always had a college coach. Our coaches both have had experience out on the competition field.

Re: Adult coach?
 

In previous years we went with a pre-college student coach. This year we started using an adult mentor coach.

We will probably stay with the mentor coach next year, but we've had good student coaches in the past, so it could go either way.

Re: Adult coach?
 

330 uses an adult coach. They've done that for so long it's hard not to...

1135 uses a student coach. It's a student-run team, pretty much.

Re: Adult coach?
 

We have several guidelines for our coach, in order of importance:

1. Above all else, can effectively communicate with the drivers and other alliance members. The drivers have to trust the coach.
2. Is mature enough to handle praise and critisism
3. Knows all of the rules
4. Knows limitations and potential of the robot
5. Has a strategy of how to play the game to win

If we don't have a student who's interested in coaching that at least meets #1 and #2, then we put an adult in to coach. Our rookie year we had a student coach, and in the last 2 years we've had an adult coach. Driving is usually secondary to speaking and interacting with teams for us, so in our 3 years of existence it has been build team members/mentors who are drivers & coaches.

Re: Adult coach?
 

It really varies for us in the past we have had all the above; from 2000 to 2003 we had adult coaches, 2004 to 2006 I don't remember a nonpre-college coach being on the field, in 2007 we had a pre-college coach at our regional and an adult at the Championships. In 2008 I (a college student) stepped into the coach role.

If we send a pre-college student if there is one that displays a very good knowledge base of the game and strategy, but it also depends on our drivers (for instance this year we ran a very "green" group of drivers so we decided to have a mentor with on field experience serve as coach.

Re: Adult coach?
 

We have always had student coaches, however, I think that it really depends on the kids experience and what the ( the mentors and students) decide. Our mentors' reasoning for them not being a drive coach is that the students will develop quick thinking and strategy skills.

Re: Adult coach?
 

We try to use students as much as we can, but if none are interested in the position for a given match, we don't mind rewarding our engineers, who volunteer their time and experience, with some on-field excitement.

Re: Adult coach?
 

We have always used adult coaches, I have been the field coach for the last four years.

Re: Adult coach?
 

I wouldn't say being a part of the competition team is a "reward" for a particular person. You should have people in those spots that give the highest chance of rewarding the entire team with success in the competition. Remember, there are many sub teams and disciplines that students concentrate on while participating on a team. The competition is more than likely the only thing they share as a unit.

While our team used a student coach this year, my stance on the issue is the field coach should be a very mature, well spoken, and intelligent individual who can handle immense amounts of stress. 99% of the time this will be a mentor, but there are always students who can fit the bill. Pushing a student or adult who does not show these qualities into the field coach position (or any other competition team position for that matter) is like putting a square peg in a round hole and will most likely bring up issues as the season goes along.

Re: Adult coach?
 

On our team, we have 2 rules:

1. Paul is the drive coach.
2. If you think it should be someone else, see rule #1.

Seriously, though I have been the on field coach since 2000 and don't really see that changing in the near future.

Re: Adult coach?
 

As a shout out in favor of adult coaches - how many regional and championship Woodie Flowers Award winners are/have been drive team coaches?

Let me start the list...feel free to add to it

Ken Patton
Dave Verbrugge - ?? Someone help me out here - I swear that was Dave coaching 67 in that 1999 Philly video I watched on 121's website. That was before my time.
Andy Baker
Paul Copioli

*******

Karthik Kanag...asa...ba....zzzz.....
Derek Bessette
JVN
Chris Fultz

These are but a few.

Apparently effective communicators make good coaches too. Who knew? :)

Also, the opposite it true - I think coaching can help develop communication and other skills that help adults improve as mentors.

Re: Adult coach?
 

All 4 teams I've been involved with have used Adult mentors (3 used teachers) as the coach.

Re: Adult coach?
 

I am the coach on my team.
Personally, I think i did a pretty good job, and that every team has at least one student capable of doing a good job as a coach. I believe these students should be given the cance to do that. However, things are pretty different in the Israel regional (where i haven't seen even one adult coach).

Re: Adult coach?
 

First I am a relatively new mentor on our team, and don't know all the ins and outs. I speak for myself - not for the other mentors or team members. My reaction to this thread is:

Wow. I guess that makes 1511's all student drive team somewhat of an anomaly. IMHO building a great drive TEAM is the mentor's responsibility - the on-field coach is part of that team. That's just my opinion - but in 1511 we had an awesome team of drivers and coaches, and a backup team in case someone fell ill or was injured. Every member of the drive team must pass - with a 100% score - a test on the rules - and the coach was definitely the best at that knowledge. This was in addition to the other requirements they had to meet. They have to apply with a resume and defend their qualifications to the mentors.

But the whole idea of FIRST (imho again) is to mold our future leaders, scientists and technologists. Yes it's a competition - but not one that should sacrifice the win for allowing a student to feel the achievement of leading that win.

Part of being a leader is learning auto-didactically - on your own, under pressure by making mistakes and learning from them. How can a student do that if they have a mentor being on the on-field team? It becomes a mentor lead team, rather than a student lead team. We want to build great LEADERS. Our current coach has been involved for 3 years and is just a junior and he will be senior next year. It's his job to coach and build his replacement from the freshmen, sophmores and juniors on the team, and to bring them up to speed (with the mentors help) to transition the drive team to a new coach next year.

I guess if you had a small enough, or new enough team that you just haven't yet developed the depth to have a fully student drive team - I could see a mentor stepping in, as they trained up a new coach for the next year for one, maybe 2 years. But I stlll think the kids will learn faster and better under exactly the pressure described above. They will make mistakes - but that's what the process is about.

This organization isn't just about winning a competition - it's about building kids self confidence, leadership skills, team skills and engineering capabilities. How can they do that if an adult does it for them?

Re: Adult coach?
 

I don't think having a mentor drive coach is having an "adult do it for them".
Part of building good leaders comes from the background. The majority of people are not just going to lead. In order to lead well, you have to fail at least once, and learn from it. Mentors help here. Truly, you can mentor on the field just as much as in the pit.

Re: Adult coach?
 

The teams I work with are pretty small. 330 typically has around 10 students, of whom 3 are on drive and the rest are scouting. Mentors also scout during breaks.

1135 is simply carrying over from FTC. They choose to have a student on the field as coach. While a relatively small team, they are pretty much all student-run. So having a student coach is a logical continuation.

I'm with SL8. Having an adult coach is not having an adult do it for you. On a good drive team, it's having an adult do it with you.

Re: Adult coach?
 

other than a few off-season events, 234 has always had an adult mentor as field coach. it is always an experienced mentor.

one of the keys, in my view, is consistency. except in a rare circumstance, we do not switch anyone on the drive team once the season starts. it is important that the four people learn to communicate and anticipate each other. we talk strategy, other robots, review what we did in a match, etc. on the way to and from the field. we try to find a group of 4 that know the game, the strategy, the robot, and can also work together as a team.

in past years, the coach and some other positions were 'rotated' or used as rewards. it was a mess, because of small mistakes that were made with a new coach or new human player that the experienced team had already worked out. someone just stepping in is more likely to make the small mistakes that lead to penalties. changing coaches was also tough on the driver / operator because they get used to a certain person and level of communication during tha match, and if it suddenly changes it can throw them off. by "rewarding" someone, we actually hurt our team and our alliance from an inconsistent level of play.

Re: Adult coach?
 

Our team, Team 1676, has always had all 4 "Drive Team" members be pre-college students. The only time we went to an adult mentor was in our second year (Aim High) when our student Coach was feeling ill, and we needed someone who knew the game inside and out.

Re: Adult coach?
 

Maybe its not so much adult versus student, but rather having someone coaching who has experienced the game, the strategy-building, the robot-building, and the communication and alliance-building. Adults have probably had more opportunities to do that. But there are definitely high school and college students who are building up that experience.

Being able to watch Derek Bessette, Paul Copioli, and JVN on one championship alliance this year was pretty legendary and entertaining. Nobody is more prepared than those guys. It was as much fun watching the people as it was watching the bots.

What is amazing is the people who have gone full-circle as drivers and coaches - high school, college, then as professionals (remember we get to turn pro when we graduate from college!). I think of people like JVN and Rob Jenkins and Anthony Lapp. Then there are college and even high school students who you know will be super-pros: Dan Kimura and Dylan Gramlich outcoach the pros now.

What a game! Someone should make a TV show about this stuff!

Re: Adult coach?
 

As a student coach for the past 2 years (this past year being my last as I am graduating), I am a strong advocate for student coaches, and I find it refreshing to read a post from a mentor supporting student coaches.

I know that as a student I have gained so much more from the FIRST program as a coach than I would have if I remained lead strategist (as I was my first 2 years on the team). I know that the experience I gained working with my team (pit crew, scouting, programming etc. - which are all also student run btw), and cooperating with other teams on the field has greatly enhanced my potential as an engineer in the future. I believe every student should have a chance at this opportunity.

As for the argument that I've read about "putting a mentor on the field to give the greatest chance of reward through success", who's success is it if the only variable in winning or losing is the student or mentor on the field? If it is the mentor that makes the difference, should the students really feel all that much better about a win than a loss? If a win is accomplished only because a mentor is on the field, I don't see that as a win, I see that as a lost opportunity for a student to learn from an experience.

Finally, there is one exception to the best thing for the team to have a student on the field is if the drive team is new or the team is to small that a mentor needs to be on the field as a necessity for the team to function. That being said I've been to regionals with 50+ students on teams, where I see a mentor coach working with other mentor coaches on the alliance, and I know that one of the students sitting scouting in the stands, or handing out buttons in the pits, or waiting for the pizza to arrive, could be on the field gaining experience they will need in their future careers as engineers.

-- PS, while I don't at all agree with choosing a mentor or student as coach based on how good it will make the team, I may as well point out that in my first regional as coach in 2007 our team was the #1 seed for the first time in team history (we ended up going on to win the regional), and this past year I coached an almost entirely new drive team where we were picked up as the first choice in alliance selection at our first regional - not to boast myself, I had relatively little to do with it, it was the evolution of the team and the maturing of the students as professionals in each of their leadership roles that allowed these successes to happen.

Re: Adult coach?
 

If you look at 6 teams that made it to the Einstein this year, all 6 of them had an adult coach behind the glass. There are many advantages to having an adult coach.

I think having an adult coach on the field gives the mentors an opportunity to have control over a teams actions on the field, teach them sportsmanship, and how to be humble competitors. We all work hard for our teams reputations, and we don't want them tainted by others because of overzealous actions in the heat of battle. Having maturity and experience giving directions is greatly beneficial. A successful coach analyzes the entire field/game and does not just focus on his/her robot. Communication skills are important to as pointed out earlier in the thread. You don't win unless you can coordinate your alliance to perform as a unit rather than individuals. These are often tasks that are difficult for student coaches to master, but a student driver can learn these skills from having the guidance of a responsible adult coach.

As abrasive as Paul Copioli can be as sometimes (j/k) I learned so much from having him as a coach and would not be where I am in FIRST or my coaching career without him. As a student Paul inspired me, he lit my competitive fire, and he never made me question that he belonged there. I've continued to learn lessons from other adult coaches that are on the top of their game: Brendan 16, Shaun 25, Andy 45, Kenny 67, Dave 103, Raul 111, Mike and Steve 375, Derek 1114 etc.... Some of the lessons learned are about how to give your team that competitive edge, but a lot of it is watching their interactions with students/other teams and the lessons that they try to impart. For all the students on driveteams I urge you to pay attention to the adult coaches that are out there; there are a lot of things to be learned.

It's important to remember that MENTORS want to be a part of the robot action on the field too. A lot of us are competitive big kids. These mentors have donated countless hours working with the students and on the robots. These adult coaches want to play on the field in the position allowed by the rules. So students and teams who advocate "students only" please be open minded and respectful to these adults they've earned their rights to be on the field.

-wayne

Re: Adult coach?
 

It seems to me the arguments being made here are very similar to those in the "mentor vs student build" threads.

Re: Adult coach?
 

As a college team that mentors local high schools, we end up with a college student coaching.

Re: Adult coach?
 

It was not my intention to create another one of those threads. I hope the continuing discussions do not devolve into one of those threads.

Re: Adult coach?
 

Wildstang has always had an adult coach. We believe very strongly in a team with mentors and students working side by side. Raul has been the coach for many years and is arguably one of the best strategists in the game.

Re: Adult coach?
 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

omg i couldn't stop laughing after i read this... haha

Re: Adult coach?
 

This is a heartstrung, tough issue for my team (well... myself really). I've been an operator for the past two years, and this year I was the driver for our robot. First off being on the drive team period is a tough job, filled with stress, and you need to be working with people who all work well with each other, and are willing to listen to each other and take criticism. I've had the opportunity to coach some matches at scrimmages, and my take on it is that the driver/operator are focusing mostly on their robot and what they are supposed to be doing, while the coach is focusing on the entire field, all the robots, and relaying the big picture of what is going on to the two of them.

For my first two years we had a college student coach, who I loved, he had experience on the field and had been coach since he was on the team as a student. He was always familiar with the rules (something I pride myself with now) and he made sure to communicate with the other coaches on our alliance and give the big picture, what our tasks should be at a certain moment, and let the nuances of how to do it go on to the drive team. This I feel is the best way to effectively use your drive team resources, and get the best out of everyone. One of my favorite things about being on the drive team is about being able to work with the other coaches, the other teams. A top moment of mine last year in atlanta was when we was allianced with 111, Wildstang, and their coach (Raul) knew exactly what was going on (he also happened to be an adult). Although they may not remember the alliance to me it was a learning experience. The ability to have coaches work with each other is a huge factor.

This year our manufactoring team 'leader', a student, was absolutely against having a non-student coach, so guess who filled the role? Himself, who I don't feel was qualified for the position. I don't want to bash on my team, he had good intentions, but since he was in a position of power and wanted to do it I don't think he looked at all of his resources to the fullest, and it really wasn't his decision in the first place, but that's another issue with my team for another thread and another day.

To get back to the point, which I think has been said in this thread already, I think it should be someone who is familiar with the robot, the rules, and is an effective communicator. I don't think whether this person is a student or not is the main issue, but it just happens that adults who are completely enthralled with the ideas and purpose of FIRST tend to have the understanding, experience, and the skills for the coaching position. Hopefully whether they are student or not is not a factor into them being coach.

Re: Adult coach?
 

First off, I don't see how showing that 6 teams on Einstein had mentor coaches has ANYTHING to do with the argument at hand. So they may have had a successful year. Not that I'm accusing any of these teams of doing this and I really respect what those students on those teams have managed to accomplish, sure if we really wanted to have a successful year then it would have been easy to have professional trained engineers run the entire team. But, success on the field isn't what it is about, is it?

As to having student coaches "crack under pressure" or ruin the team reputation is completely and totally bogus. I have worked with dozens of different student coaches, not once did I ever see any of them lose focus, look only at their robot, or do any other action that made their team perform to less than their potential. In addition to this, even if the student coach were to crack under pressure, isn't FIRST the program where you want the student to learn how to cope with pressure? The students that coach these teams will presumably be some of the premier engineers in the United States in the coming years, would you rather have them learn to deal with pressure when they are competing in a high school robotics competition, or when engineering a military helicopter?

...FIRST isn't about winning...

Honestly, as a student working with students, sure we were all bummed when things didn't work out on the field, but never did it make us wish we had more of it done for us. We took this experience and made our next match that much better, and the match after that even better, and then our educations and careers after that the best they could possibly be.

I am not trying to attack any team, or anyone. I simply want as many students as possible to get the experience from FIRST I have been able to receive.

Re: Adult coach?
 

1618 has always used an adult coach during my tenure. Both years, we've had a small group of largely inexperienced kids; as a result, I tend to provide more coaching abilities without tying up our more scarce resources (read: kids) that tend to be more skilled elsewhere.

Re: Adult coach?
 

I've been the coach for nine of the ten seasons I've spent with FIRST. My first year, I was a high school senior, but have been in that role as a mentor ever since. I did not coach in 2004 -- the only year to date I've not attended a competition since 1999.

I don't feel like this, particularly, means our team lacks depth or that we're not doing everything we can to inspire the students.

As an adult in this role, it's my responsibility to do much more than coach the team to a win whenever I can. I'm there to act as a buffer between my kids and other teams -- adult coaches can be intimidating, so I'm there to intimidate right back. :)

I also act as a mediator between the drive team and the rest of the group. I am not stressed by competition -- gross incompetence not withstanding -- and can protect the kids from a lot of the criticism and backseat driving that can sometimes occur after a match. That said, I don't sugarcoat my opinion of their performance. In Atlanta, I had to tell our driver that he'd played the worst defense that I've ever seen in all of my ten years.

I'm there to make sure that the criticism is taken constructively and to make sure that they move on after a loss -- though we're working on eliminating those entirely. I don't want the kids to beat themselves up over things like that -- it's not worth putting in all of the effort, resources and time to come to a competition and not enjoy yourself, regardless of how well you do on the field.

Above all, I take my job as a coach seriously and do everything I can to be prepared for a match -- but no matter what happens -- I'm there to make sure the kids have fun and are treated fairly. We're working to provide the experience of competing in this "Superbowl of Smarts" to the kids and one of my biggest roles in that is alleviating tension.

The students on our team get along terrificly, but I'd still be a bit worried that leaving them on their own during stressful competition could lead to unneeded tension and additional stress -- and those things do very little to further our efforts toward inspiration.

Re: Adult coach?
 

From my experience:

If you give a mentor a job, you are taking it from a student. If we have a teacher weld, it is taking it from a student who can weld. The only time we have a mentor working, is if there are safety reasons(the school complains) or if the only student that can do that job is busy with a different job. I agree with some of you when you say that the Adult Coach is working 'with' the drive team. However he is only working with the 3 kids left on the field. What about the kid that could be the Coach? He got replaced. He is working with three of the kids, but he is working for one of the kids.

A little story:
Have any of you played sports when you were little? I did, I used to play soccer. There was always the parent on the sidelines yelling at the kids and telling them what to do. We didn't enjoy this guy yelling at us. In fact, I don't care if he was right. Maybe I did miss something that would have helped my team to win. The only thing is, that my team was not there just to win. We was there to have fun. Any time you put an adult on the field, you are just taking a chance of taking the fun away. I have seen many adult coaches yelling on the field, I have yet to see a student coach yelling on the field. I am not asking you to have a student on the field necesarily, just try to make sure that whoever you choose to put out there is not taking away from the fun.

Re: Adult coach?
 

I have seen many students and adults yelling on the field. If you do not agree with "angry adult" coaches, I think everyone here would agree with your point, but I don't see how a student yelling is more beneficial.

But, I think these types of coaches are few and far between. Most of the mentor coaches I have come in contact with have been very respectable people, offering insight and inspiration not only to their kids, but the kids on all of the teams they work with as well.

If you don't believe me, just ask my drivers what they think of guys like Tim Baird. I have heard nothing but good things from them all year about working with him in Hartford.

I've seen them [drivers] adapt their play style based on what some of the mentor coaches have told them, and seem them 'keep it cool' when mentors were involved in the competition.

Re: Adult coach?
 

We've always had student coaches on the field for every match. It is just something that seems to work with our team. With a different team... with a different robot... or in a different situation, we would do it differently. I am really glad that FIRST gives teams the choice to use either students or adults in this role.

What I would really like to see, however, (and maybe this goes on at off-season events) is a mentor drive team vs. mentor drive team match... I think after a season of receiving "helpful tips" from us mentors, the students might enjoy seeing how closely we followed our own advice! And the mentors might have a better appreciation of exactly how challenging driving the machine and sticking to strategy in competition really is. I mean... it looks pretty easy from the stands....

Jason

Re: Adult coach?
 

FIRST is a sporting event. Yelling is part of sporting events. Why shouldn't the coach yell?

Unless the coach is cussing out the kids, or being grossly inappropriate, I fail to see yelling as being derogatory in nature.

Re: Adult coach?
 

You're right...FIRST isn't, but the FIRST Robotics Competition is. Otherwise it would be called the FIRST Robotics Get Together With Other Teams and Show Off Our Cool Stuff Event.

I bet there was an adult coach though that was running the team...

Re: Adult coach?
 

First off, Tom: I am not saying that having a student yelling is any better. Re-read the last line of my previous post.

Next, Cory: The reason the coaches yelling at a football game is seen as acceptable is because they are yelling a long distance. In FIRST, the coach is standing right next to you. There is no need to yell. If you think it is still 'no big deal' to have people down there yelling, have a friend or someone yell at you when you are taking a test(or doing something else that requires though) and see if it is 'no big deal'.

I am not going to say that all teams should have a student as a coach. I am just saying that all teams should consider what effect their particular coach is going to have on the game. And I would like to suggest that perhaps winning is not where you should focus. You should put the focus on the fun.

Re: Adult coach?
 

Have you ever been on the field during a match? Yelling is absolutely required at any distance greater than, perhaps, six inches.

Re: Adult coach?
 

I've been a driver, operator, human player, and coach. Like Madison, I would contend that yelling is nearly a necessity. If my coach wasn't yelling when I was driving, odds are I wasn't going to hear what they were saying. There's a difference between yelling at someone and yelling to someone, like I said in my last post.

Re: Adult coach?
 

Wow this thread started off with the right intent but again the cd world has gone to the far right and far left. Look guys every team operates differently. There is no right or wrong way to do this. What i love is first letting the team, decide how they should run their team. Just because you think your way is correct does not mean it's the only way. Just like the robots we build, just because we all play the same game does not mean we all have the same robot.:ahh:

Re: Adult coach?
 

When you are on the field, you should be doing everything (legal) you can to win. If that means a student coach is a better choice, so be it. But, also, if that means an adult coach is a better choice, so be it.

From what I've seen, adult coaches usually are better (not always); Guys like Copioli, Baker, Travis Covingtion, etc... have all been around a long time; they know what works, they know what they're doing and they get it done.

Re: Adult coach?
 

I make a distinction between yelling and shouting. Shouting is fine; it is sometimes necessary in order to be heard. Yelling implies to me a less than desireable attitude.

Re: Adult coach?
 

Hmm, 1676 too.
And I can tell you, it was a HUGE amount of fun. I'll always treasure that - Thanks Dan. Hope you're feeling better now (2 years later).
Yes, indeed. It IS a lot of fun, and gives a very different perspective on the game. Sadly, I leave that fun to the kids, since they're the ones we're theoretically doing this for.


Wow, you must have good ears or something to get as far as 6 inches...:D


Don

.

Re: Adult coach?
 

This is the FIRST Robotics Competition. The field coach position should be filled by the best person who is willing to undertake the job.

If a team has a good student coach, then that is great.

If a team has a good adult coach, then that is also great.

I am a proponent for adult coaches. FIRST is about bringing light to role models and heroes. Adult coaches are mentors who are in the limelight, performing under pressure. Good adult coaches are to be admired and respected, as they are good role models for the FIRST community.

I know that the drivers on team 45 cherish the chance of being in an alliance with a team who has a long-time FIRST mentor as a drive team coach. Whether it is Kyle Hughes of 27, Ken Patton of 65, Dan Quiggle of 179, Glenn Lee of 359, or Brian Beatty of 71, each is an eye-opening experience that is revered by students.

The fact that students on FIRST teams can look up to these well-known FIRST drive coaches (and many others) is a good thing. That benefit alone overrides some of the bad experiences that take place with a few over-bearing coaches.

Adult coaches do a good job of certain things that are hard for student coaches to do. They take the heat when the match is lost. They give credit to the drivers when the match is won. They are a steady, consistent face, representing a team on the playing field for year after year. It is no coincidence that many teams with sustainable success on the FIRST playing field have the same adult drive coach for year after year.

With this said, I have seen some great student coaches. Like I said, whatever is best for that team's situation is what should be done.

Andy B.

Re: Adult coach?
 

On our team, I'm the coach. The year before I joined the team, we had a couple of mentor coaches, but it caused tensions between the drivers, students, and teachers. We eventually decided that it was better to have student coaches. But I understand that sometimes a mentor might be better because they are more commanding. We had a student coach in the past who didn't give orders well enough. It drove the drivers crazy. We've occasionally put an adult out on the field this year during a practice match because we couldn't find one of our drivers, but I just stood at the robocoach station and them came over and coached.

Re: Adult coach?
 

1038 has competed for six seasons. The first two years we fielded a student coach. In our second year, we earned the position of alliance captain and won (with the help of excellent partners) our division in Atlanta.

At the end of our second year I was invited by the Team Leader to become the Coach. He made that decision for many of the reasons outlined by others. At the end of last season, one of our students (a senior this season) expressed a desire to coach. We put together a plan for him to gain some experience and he coached this season.

We made the decision to put Steve in as coach because he had demonstrated the capacity to fill the role.

Last year, I coached along side a student coach from 1126 (I'm pretty sure he was pre-college; at my age, it gets harder to tell :D ). He did an excellent job as coach and alliance captain.

There was a thread a few years ago about coaching that included contributions from Andy Baker, among others. They described the attributes of a good coach. They also outlined the expectations. If your team is fortunate to have somebody with those qualities available, then why not put them to use. We should strive to make the best use of all of our resources.

I think that coaching is an important role that benefits from continuity and experience; therefore, I am a proponent of mentor coaches.

Re: Adult coach?
 

On Torbotics we have used a student coach for the past two years. Our mentors feel at the competition they should do as little as possible, but they are certainly not slacking off, to let the students learn as much as they can about FIRST and its goals and experience them. I personally like the student coach because
1. I feel I can communicate better with a peer, and he can better communicate with me.
2. It allows another position for a student that has worked hard on our robot to get to enjoy the pleasures.

Also for the past two years the coach has been an Andrew but that is just because the A's are awesome at our high school

Re: Adult coach?
 

I still keep my opinions. However, I think we all should head the intent of this thread. If anyone would like to discuss one of my previous posts, please send me a PM. Otherwise, I would request that we do not continue the discussion on here.

Re: Adult coach?
 

I answered Adults at least 50% of the time.

While 228 usually has a college or adult mentor with extensive experience on the field to fill in the role of FRC drive team coach during the competition season (which includes any regionals, Championships, and BattleCry@WPI ;)), there are sometimes exceptions. Generally, the students on the team want to win at these events, so the team will pick whoever is best qualified for the positions on the drive team.

But once we get into the rest of the off-season, we usually mix up the drive team and let as many students as possible have some time on the field; and that can include student drive team coaches. At these events, the students don't care as much about winning as just having fun out on the playing field.

And our Vex team(s) have always been all students for everything.

Re: Adult coach?
 

Just a side note...

I know that this thread has gotten somewhat "heated" and "like those other threads", but isn't that part of the discussion? Just because some people are somewhat taking a more firm stance on how they do things doesn't mean we should calm down or anything... Obviously if people start insulting others or saying that they are stupid, then things have gone too far. But, I personally don't things have gotten bad at all and think it's a healthy discussion...

Back to the discussion...

Re: Adult coach?
 

I was the coach for my team this year and I believe that I am the first student coach that we've ever had. The two previous years the coach was one of our teachers and mentors and he did an amazing job. So when this year I was asked to be the coach, I was honored. It really meant a lot to me that my team would chose me to be the one instructing (for lack of a better term) the drivers.

Coaching really is a great way to get more interaction between students and mentors, not just on your team, but on other teams as well. I know that just from pre-match strategizing that you get to know members of FIRST teams from around the world. And ultimately, IMHO, this is one of the most important goals of FIRST.

I will say this however, the coach needs to work well with the drive team and know how to keep them calm, yet still energized. On the issue of student vs. adult coaches, I agree with Andy in that it should be the person who is best suited for the role and can help the team the most. In my opinion, it doesn't matter if that person is a student or an adult, you can have success with either of them.

Re: Adult coach?
 

That's the exact same thing on 418. Of course, and that isn't going to change until he retires either.

-Danny

Re: Adult coach?
 

Our team always has student coaches. We make our mentors do as little hands on work as possible, they do more supervising and teaching then they do actual hands on work. The mentors on our team are more useful in the offseason when they teach us then they step back during the build season and let the students do all the work.

The way I see it, if an adult is coach they are taking away an oppertunity that a child could have to learn from.

Re: Adult coach?
 

we have done this at the IRI.
coach MUST be a student.
drive team must be mentors who were not drivers on a FIRST team.

it was ugly.... :ahh:

Re: Adult coach?
 

It's spreading. SCRRF Fall Classic 2006 had it after the finals. Not sure about 2007.

Re: Adult coach?
 

To reiterate Andy's post, we do not have a mentor as the drive coach because it puts us in a better position to win. We have a mentor drive coach (an engineer, specifically) so the students can work side by side with the engineers. On our team, the students work side by side with the mentors during every phase of the FRC season: off season events, design, prototyping, build, Chariman's (although this is more student tilted than the rest of the stuff), practice, and competition. This works for us. Why should the side by side stop at the field entrance?

For us, it has nothing to do with winning but has everything to do with side by side coperation between professionals and students.

And yes, I yell (shout, whatever you want to call it) when behind the glass becasue you can't hear anything behind that Lexan shield.

Re: Adult coach?
 

I have coached both as a high school student and college mentor. After seeing a bit of both sides of the coin, I think it's pretty safe to say that it's about what works best for your team, and what will give you the best chemistry and results. Different drivers and individuals react to different coaches and individuals better than others, and it all depends on what will fit for your team. There isn't a "right" or a "wrong" way to do it.
As I've said in plenty of other threads, chemistry is a big part of the picture. You have to know what individuals can fulfill the job and work together (and with other teams) properly.
I had the absolute pleasure of working in, what was in my opinion, one of the finest drive teams in FIRST in 2006 and 2007. I had known the driver since 7th grade, and he and the operator were best friends since elementary school. We worked together fluidly and easily, and our chemistry enabled us to perform much better than we should have given our robots. Our attitudes and skill sets complimented each-other, and it resulted a well-oiled, adept drive team.
This year, I was the understudy to an outstanding collegiate coach, Mike Williams of 1712. I also coached our "2nd drive team" who operated roughly half of our qualification matches (since the entire 1st drive crew, including Mike, was due to graduate). I know for a fact, I was nowhere near as good of a coach this year as I was last, at least partially because I didn't quite have the same level of chemistry and comfort as I did with my previous drive teams. This was especially true when I filled in for Mike on the 1st team, as he was much more skilled at communicating with that driver than I. That was his team, not mine, and for good reason. I'm glad I had this experience, especially at building chemistry with the future drivers of 1712, and I hope I get the opportunity to continue coaching them in the future.
I have coached with and against many of those mentioned in this thread, as well as many other great and not-so-great coaches. I've learned a lot from working with many, both positive and negative. Some mentors have shut out my ideas, but that is a vast minority. On more than one occasion I gleaned some strategic insight during both the pre-match planning and listening to them coach during the match. I have seen some tremendous students coaches, and some who speak maybe two words the entire match. I have seen adult coaches grab their students my the shoulders and yell at them, and I have seen students cuss out their drivers. I have seen both students and mentors execute strategies I've only dreamed of to perfection.
As for the suggestion that students are every bit as prepared to handle the pressure and full scale of coaching, I know for a fact that isn't always true. There are many who are capable, but the maturity and experience needed are often much easier to find in adults (although some of them are lacking in it as well). I have also encountered a handful of coaches who don't have the same level of respect for student coaches, and often don't respect their opinion as much as they would if it were coming from the mouth of another mentor.
I know for a fact that I have room to improve, and my problems also didn't magically vanish when I transitioned to a college coach. Though the problems with pressure and the situation aren't as overt as you might imagine (it's not like anyone is suggesting that student coaches will break down and cry), they do exist. I have yet to have much success in the elimination rounds, and while some of the reasons why I have lost may be out of my hands, I can guarantee I am at least part of the problem. I have room to improve and grow as a coach, and I look forward to doing so.
Also note, that as a student coach, I did have a fair bit of success. I was one penalty away from reaching the Galileo division finals last year. Against 1114 I am 2-0 career (I'm not sure if it was Karthik or Derek coaching at IRI 2006, but it was Karthik in 07). Against JVN I am 1-0 (not counting matches where my robot wasn't on the field). Against Paul Copioli I am 2-0*. I'm 2-1 against Andy Baker. ;)

Sorry for rambling, I hope what I just said makes any sense. Bottom line, do what works for you.

*Although I'm 2-0 against 217 when Paul coaches, I'm 0-2 against them when he doesn't....hmmm.... :rolleyes:

Re: Adult coach?
 

What you guys are doing or should be doing is projecting from your diaphragms. You know if you are yelling, hollering, or shrieking - if your throat hurts. That means you are yelling from your throat, not speaking from your diaphragm. I learned this in voice and speech classes. Good public speakers and singers learn the value of this. It is of value to coaches as well.

(This is probably falling on deaf ears, I know- but some of you are speaking correctly when coaching and many of you are not - which = yelling and sore throats.)
--
So much is involved in the competition regarding the robots and how they perform, the alliances, and interactions. And also, what occurs off the field and around the field. Maturity is key in this. I like Paul's perspective of the interactions of the drive team with the engineer/coach from beginning to end of the competition season. That's very cool. It isn't the only way, but is certainly is a great way.

It probably also helps the engineers continue to develop and hone their skills in many areas as well.

Re: Adult coach?
 

Our team has always had a student coach. We've been moving more and more towards student leadership on our team over the past few years, so I wouldn't expect to see this change. By no means am I denouncing adult coaches, though- I have met a lot of amazing and inspiring adult coaches who have incredible minds for strategy and do great things on their team. It's just that given the current dynamics and habits of our team, I don't think an adult coach would work out.

Re: Adult coach?
 

FIRST, The FIRST Robotics Competition, or any other FIRST program is not about winning. I'm sure I could spend my next two weeks finding hundreds of quotes from Dean, Woodie, and Paul stating this.

When we go to a regional or nationals, my team and I compete as hard as we can not to get mass produced medals, not to get congratulated on ChiefDelphi, not to boost our own egos, but to get as much out of the experience as we can.

With all the variables in team size, funds, mentor involvement, and straight out luck - its not as if the team that works the hardest will always win the competition. The fact that some teams cannot win the competition because they are at such a disadvantage through no fault of their own, yet they still come to compete against the more advantaged teams (and still get just as great if not better experience) is a testament to how well the FIRST Robotics Competition accomplishes what its about - Inspiring students in science and technology.

Re: Adult coach?
 

I'm not going to vote, primarily because any one of the choices could work, if the SAME team chooses to do so, year to year, event to event, or even in consecutive matches, make changes.
As far as yelling goes, if you've never coached a match before, you'd be surprised how even after yelling, your drive team still cant here you at point blank range.
Do I love coaching? Yes!
Should I coach? My only criteria is that we put the best, able, and willing person in that role.
In 2003, we were with Paul and Andy as teammates at CMP, and had a female student coach on the field. Why? She understood the game, demonstrated the ability to do it, and was respected/trusted by her drive team. She graduated in 2005.
Since then, I have been the coach again, simply because no one else on our team wants to do it and I love studying the game,strategies, and working with the other teams on game plan.
Our greatest moments this season: Strategizing against team 25 and 968 (2006 CMP finalist team) in beating them in the '08 Hawaii regional semifinals. Strategizing against team 968 and 233 as the defensive 3rd bot at CMP Newton quarterfinals. We lost, but not allowing Pink to hurdle once we got their ball for BOTH matches were an accomplishment in itself, considering in Hawaii, they pretty much scored at will.
Paul, Andy, and others mentioned in this thread are legendary. I'd like to add EJ of 254. Watch him coach as he actually spends more time working with his alliance partners than his own drivers during a match. In addition, I LOVE going against Shaun of team 25. He is another GREAT coach. One of these days, I hope we can be alliance partners (hint hint NJ'09) and stategize together. No offense Dave (team 103), we can be the third bot. :)

Re: Adult coach?
 

In the past, we've done it differently, but this year, we had a student for almost every match. The two exceptions were when we had one of our mentors, a college senior, as the coach.

Re: Adult coach?
 

Up until this year I went down with my team for three years as the coach and loved every minute of it. I agree with Glenn that the drive team doesn't hear you though. Good ones get in the zone and tune out advice they don't need. Besides helping with strategy before matches I found myself becoming more of a cheerleader especially when my driver said he doesn't hear anything I say during a match. I finally found a use when I counted down time for them, something very valuable. Knowing what a thrill it was being right there and seeing the change in rules that allowed students as the coach I stepped back this year and put another student in. I suffered from major withdrawals in the stands and found myself still screaming "advice" from afar but I felt good giving another one of my students that experience that only the drive team gets down there. Besides, my drive team does the "haka" before each match and usually dances around acting nutty to pump themselves up and to have fun. At my age, I have the acting nutty down but the dancing is out. It was a natural to get another student involved. I have nothing against adults being the coach however! I think its a nice way to recognize a mentor or teacher who earned the right. I've been fortunate to have a lot of experienced kids to choose from. If I had a lot of newbies I'd probably be back down there....and loving every minute of it again.

Re: Adult coach?
 

For our team, and previous teams I have been a part of, it has been 50/50.
The thought behind it: Whatever works.


It's like, okay last year we had a student coach, he wanted to do it, we didn't see a problem with that, we decided it would be a great way for students to network and learn quickthinking skills as well as networking. It's a great opputunity to have students meet others on other teams and learn from their experiences.

This year, it's been kind of a switcheroo, we had a college mentor be our coach one event, and students (like myself) for the others. If thats what seems to be better for the drive team, (i.e. in the situation being, the mentor seems to have more experience and for predicted better result should be put in there instead, mentor seemed to work better with other adult coaches in strategy sessions, etc.) we switched the student out.

Either way, honestly has it's perks. Thats why our team has done both and is open to both. Do you want to give a student the experience and oppurtunity? or do you want a mentor with a little more certainty to get the job done?

Re: Adult coach?
 

I know that 846 used to use an adult mentor as the coach but transitioned to a full student drive team and has stayed that way for the last few years. Only this year did I see an actual effective coach, and that was mostly because I was good friends with him, and because he has a very unabashed, outgoing personality. As the co-driver/Robocoach, I would also come over to help coach. I felt that rotating drivers within the team helped because we could see the other's mistakes and help coach. Our mentors do make sure to critique our driving off the field. The majority of the time I was driving, I was running off pure instinct, with only the important info relayed to me by our coach. I think for our team specifically, we operate better with a fully student drive team. On the other hand there are teams that have great adult coaches, bad adult drive coaches, great student coaches, and bad student coaches. It mostly depends on the makeup of your team.

Also, I just wanted to say I was really really pleased to be part of a very well coached drive team during qualifying matches in Hawaii. At the end of autonomous, all three of our robots (25, 359, 846) were caught up on the opponents finish line. The refs took some time to figure out which robots had fully crossed and which didn't. During that time, all of our coaches and drivers were communicating with directions for what to do once teleop started. As soon as the bell rang, we all did what we had to do and went on to put up some big points. It was great to see and hear these "big-time" coaches working with our student-only team. While it is exciting to work with these famous mentors, not every adult mentor can coach the same.

Edit: And to address other issues: 2 years of being a driver. 5 events driven. I've never gone home Saturday night (sometimes even by Friday night) without losing my voice. It gets ridiculously loud down there. And about never seeing student coaches yell....obviously you've never seen my drive team. We do this cool thing where we yell at each other, yell directions to the other drive teams on our alliance, and somehow still manage to operate fluidly...somewhat...most of the time.
Also, I've never had a problem dealing with pushy adult coaches. I usually do a good job getting a compromise worked out that benefits my team. It helps that I'm a little bit demanding sometimes....:D

Re: Adult coach?
 

This is my own observation about coaches. Many of the best coaches I have worked with in the past have the following traits. They are competitive, smart, aware, observant and experienced. I emphasize experience because just like in sports the coach needs to have an understanding of the game, and understanding to break down the game and also the other alliance. Experience also has a lot to do with how the coach interacts with alliance partners and his own drivers. From my experiences on the field the best coaches tend to be the ones that have been doing it for a number of years. This gives them a lot of experience. These coaches have a system in place for how they do everything on the field and off. These coaches often times see things many other people do not. This isn't to say good coaches aren't up and coming but these are the tendencies that i have noticed over the years that the high quality coaches have. In my opinion from these observations the best coaches are adult mentors.

Re: Adult coach?
 

Deaf ears from all the yelling no doubt.:p

One theme I am seeing in this thread is that there is no one best way, it depends a lot on how your team's dynamics work. An adult coach can be valuable as a role model, calmness and wisdom under pressure, someone to emulate. Buy that does not mean that students can't possess these qualities as well.

Don

Re: Adult coach?
 

As a driver in 2000, 2001, and 2002, I was coached by Brian Beatty on Team 71, and his insight into the game, his strategy sessions, and his approach to coaching were all huge inspirations to me as I transitioned from student to mentor. During my college career, I coached nearly every match that 1064 was in (sometimes switched with co-founder Lauren Halatek, former Wildstang Human Player), nearly every match that 1675 was in (sometimes switched with our lead teacher, who used to be a wrestling coach), and a large chunk of 1714's matches (more in 07 than 06, but whenever asked by their drive team). In 06, I actually coached both 1714 and 1675 in the eliminations, running from one side of the field for one quarter final match to the other side of the field for the next quarter final match (that didn't work out so well, and I won't do it again - its not conducive to good strategy when you get the two strategies mixed up!).

My background as a driver helped tremendously. My involvement with the build allowed me to make better decisions knowing how the robot was performing (or not). My rapport with the students made everyone comfortable and it was fun for everyone. There were times that I got too focused on our robot and missed something happening on the other side of the field that we could have done something about to change the outcome of the match - but there probably are few coaches who haven't had a similar experience.

Now that I have graduated college and moved into my professional career, this was the first year EVER that I did not step foot behind the lexan for a single match - not even a practice match. My involvement with the regionals on Thursday (inspecting) prevented me from coaching, and we wanted to be consistent between practice and qualifying since practice worked so well. One of our other teachers, who has never coached a sport before, stepped in and did a phenomenal job. His calmness behind the drivers allowed him to be a much more effective coach than I was. I assisted with strategy between matches and then updated him on my observations after each match. Needless to say, this was our best year ever, in terms of competition results.

I believe we had one match ever in the history of 1675 with a student coach. It went well enough, but we prefer to have adult mentors. Not only does the partnership continue on the field, but it just seems to work better with a more experienced mentor observing and communicating with the other coaches. Each team must find what works best for them, however, and each team will have a different story.

Re: Adult coach?
 

Before the starting sound effect, I'll be your best friend: I'll loan you tools, fix your code, carry your robot, mentor your students, help you with marketing, and share my food. Before a match, I am all about the fun of all of us doing robots together. When the doo-doo-doo-doo-da-doo sounds, I am all about the fun of winning (within the rules, of course). Losing is character-building, but I prefer fun.

Re: Adult coach?
 

I think I've said this in similar threads before, and everything else I think I probably would have said has been said in some fashion or other here, so I will just add this...

Anyone have any thoughts on trying to encourage FIRST to bring back the dual coach role (it used to be 5 on a drive team: 2 drivers, 2 coaches, 1 Human Player)? I remember the thrill of being able to coach as a student, right next to one of my favorite High School Mentors. It was a great experience, because I got to coach AND I got to work with a mentor. It didnt take away from the student's role, and the mentor can more closely monitor how the student coach is performing under pressure and step in to help when needed, but also step back when the student has gained the confidence and experience needed to lead the drive team.

Re: Adult coach?
 

I don't know Kim.
That's an awful lot of people down in the alliance station.
We've always been big on enabling our students as much as possible and never once considered putting an adult coach in. I don't know whether or not it will lead to a date on Einstein but that's not why we are doing this in the first place. We're proud of what we have done no matter where we finish.

Re: Adult coach?
 

That is a very interesting concept. I wonder what precipitated the change?

Re: Adult coach?
 

I think you've just perfectly summed up our team's philosophy. While (I should hope) the students are certainly grateful for the assistance and insights of the professional mentors during build- and off-season, we view competition as theirs to experience, not ours.

Re: Adult coach?
 

I am still heavily involved with this program (and engineering) because I was heavily involved in school.

I was the field coach because I was heavily involved.

I was not heavily involved because I was the coach.

Re: Adult coach?
 

Kim,
I believe there is just no additional room for three more adults. In a game where there is more human player interaction (which I hope for each and every year) the chaos would take away from the game.

Re: Adult coach?
 

Wouldn't it be great if you mentored a student coach instead of coaching yourself? Being able to pass on your skills in both coaching and engineering to yet another generation, isn't that what mentoring is all about?

The reward for mentoring is watching the students learn and develop from the experience, without having to be directly involved in the competition.

Re: Adult coach?
 

I was a student, which is really the foundation of the argument I was building.

I was going to stay involved with engineering whether I was the field coach or not. Looking back, it was "fun" and all, but what did I really get out of it? It has occurred to me quite recently that mentoring speeds the development of skills (technical, soft, whatever..) at a much faster rate than students trying to learn things on their own. There's a reason classes have teachers and students are not just handed books or thrown into their field to "figure it out".

Unfortunately our team missed out on a great opportunity to "learn from the pros" because we did student-centric things like insisting on having a student field coach.

Re: Adult coach?
 

There is great truth to this statement regarding the student-centric aspect and the opportunity for learning from professionals and engineers.

Re: Adult coach?
 

It's very gratifying to see FIRST's emphasis validated like this by someone who has experienced things from more than one point of view. While the program is for the benefit of students, it is based on mentors acting as role models -- and not necessarily as teachers.

Re: Adult coach?
 

Personally i prefer to have a adult coach. This is because i find that there is less arguments and that i will respect/ listen to an adult more. if a student is couching and he is your friend i think that i might put some tension on your relationship. There is allot of stress on the drive team and some things that can be said could real screw up a relationship. Having an adult that you respect can be more effective then a student coach. I have also observed that drive teams with adult coaches are more organized in driver meetings, they are also more prepare with information.

The coach is defiantly a real important part of the drive team with out that possession things might get relay funny on the field.

Matthew Simpson
Team 75 driver

Re: Adult coach?
 

I really liked the way Tom stated this. I myself have been in both situations. The first few years I was involved in the program our team had no engineering support. It was very student-centric. Which for learning how to use tools and how to put things together was great. However, my last few years in high school I was able to work with engineers, machinist and other professionals to learn "how to do things the right way." They taught me to take pride in my work and pushed me to do harder and better things. They (along with my high school science teacher) inspired me to go into engineering. That is something that until there influence I would not have considered doing. Though this logic may not necessarily hold true for having one of them behind the glass there is a lot of merit in having our inspirational figures behind the glass working side by side with the drive teams.

Re: Adult coach?
 

Some assorted thoughts.

Team 1114 has used an exclusively used an adult coach since 2004, and will continue to do so in the future. Having an adult coach provides our driveteam an unique opportunity to learn and be inspired by industry professionals in the highest paced of environments. In addition, it gives our team the possible chance of success. One of the core values on Simbotics is that winning is a fun and inspirational experience.

Part of FIRST's mission is to help create science and technology heroes. The students of 1114 have many heroes within FIRST, many of whom are adult field coaches of other teams. Our kids get ridiculously excited at even the thought of working with coaches like Raul Olivera, Brian Beatty or Ken Patton. This year in Atlanta, we were fortunate enough to be paired with 217 and 148, coached by Paul Copioli and JVN. The kids are still talking about what an amazing and interesting experience it was to work with these two. These adult coaches are the "rock stars" of our program, and I know on Simbotics the kids really do look up to and aspire to be a great as these coaches.

When it comes to alliance selection, Team 1114 puts a huge emphasis on coaching. We are much more likely to pick a team who has a coach who has a commanding presence in the box, and has been a proven winner through out the years. We have made picks based on this rationale and have never regretted it.

Re: Adult coach?
 

Edit: Karthik beat my by 4 minutes. Apparently we think alike, and he just thinks a little faster. (Or maybe he types faster.)

I've got a lot of different perspectives I could chime in from. I've been a student, been a college mentor, and now I'm a "professional". The argument which gives me the most tingles is this one:

I'm absolutely thrilled that team 1114 and team 217 use adult coaches. Our students got the chance to work hand in hand with Derek Bessette and Paul Copioli.

This was a great thing, and one I'm thankful my students had the opportunity to experience.

Lots of people have quoted Dean and Woodie and Paul and whoever else in this thread. I'm reminded in particular of the quote "We want to live in a society where scientists and engineers are regarded as rock stars."

Well, let me tell you, our students got to stand side by side with Derek and Paul and see exactly WHY these guys are rock stars.

I guess if FIRST ever declares that adult coaches are against the rules, there are some students who will be robbed of all similar experiences in the future.

$.02
-John

Re: Adult coach?
 

FIRST allows the role of either an adult (mentor, teacher, adult volunteer) or a student.
How teams decide to do it is most obvious in these posts, by some good explanations and team philosophies. Its evident that students gain in either situation.
As an advocate for allowing adult coaches, I played soccer for many years as a kid. Our coaches were adults. Do we say that we should have had one of our peers, coach us instead, so that we get the "full" learning experience? Does having an adult coach us, lesson the learning experience for how we played on the field? Either way, the drivers are students who are playing the game, and not the adults.

Re: Adult coach?
 

It probably isn't possible for me to put enough disclaimers on this message to avoid being misunderstood, chastised and "educated" by the Robotic Masses, but I'm going to go ahead anyway.

I learned how to work with youth from the Boy Scouts, where I've been an Assistant Scoutmaster for eight years. In Boy Scouts, the adults have the job of training youth leaders, and then getting out of the way and letting them lead. The boys think it's a camping club, but the adults know that it's about helping young men (and women) learn to make ethical choices throughout their lives. Actually, that's a light paraphrase of the mission statement of the Boy Scouts of America. You will notice that there is nothing in that statement about working with adults, camping, wearing uniforms, leadership, working on new skills (rank), or personal growth. Those are the methods of Scouting. Working with adults, camping, etc. are the tools we use to achieve our aim, which is helping young people grow into mature adults.

The mission of FIRST is quite similar, although in a more narrow focus: Our mission is to inspire young people to be science and technology leaders, (...) (and to) foster well-rounded life capabilities including self-confidence, communication and leadership.. The Method is: engaging them (youth) in exciting mentor-based programs that build science, engineering and technology skills, (and) that inspire innovation. I took the mission statement from the FIRST Website and split it into goals and methods. Does this sound familiar? FIRST is Scouting with computers and motors.

The question is not whether an adult coach will be a better coach or not. That is not any part of the FIRST mission -- which, surprise, doesn't even mention robots, just like the Boy Scout mission doesn't include camping. The important question about coaching matches is, does having an adult coach inspire young people to be science and technology leaders and foster well-rounded life capabilities? My belief is that adult coaches can be inspirational to young people. I would also argue, though, that having a mentor train a youth to be an effective coach would be a better lesson on leadership and character building, and would more positively affect both the youth and the mentor.

There are a few FIRST hills I would die on, but this isn't one. (Ask me how I feel about saving blocks of seats at events for a "willing to die on a hill" issue.) Adult coaches are legal, and many teams obviously feel that having a mentor coach is a better solution than training youth for the job. Good for them. Seriously. For me, though, I plan to spend my tournament time in the stands watching the team I help build compete. I guess I'm guilty of heterodoxy, but the FIRST tent should be big enough for both Karthik and me.

Re: Adult coach?
 

Live and let live is 100% my opinion on this.
I do not fault any team that uses student coaches, and I understand their justification for it.

I just grow irritated when people tell me that what our team does is "wrong" or that we're "depriving our students" somehow.

It is refreshing for me to see Rick's post.
I find it odd that most of the people on the "mentor side" of the mentor/student debate are of the "live and let live" mentality but most of the people on the "student side" of the mentor/student debate are of the "my way or the highway" mentality.

To the "my way or the highway" student coach zealots:
Is the fact that 148 uses a mentor coach really that egregious of an offense in your eyes? Why do you care how WE do things?

I always say find what works best for your team, for your given situation. Why should we rely on someone else to tell me what will work best for our situation?

-John

Re: Adult coach?
 

John,
After having more than a few intense discussions with adults involved in the student run/student driven side of things - I've decided it is somehow connected to fear. Fear that the student will lose out or be cheated out of experiencing whatever it is the adults want the student(s) to experience. It is sometimes (or often, it seems to me) a case where the adults and the students they impact, can't quite wrap their minds around what the FIRST mission is.

Those that get it, tend to be more of the 'live and let live' variety, understanding and respecting the various situations and what works well or best with the team(s) involved. They also tend to be the ones who have taken the time to learn about FIRST and to understand it.

Re: Adult coach?
 

Actually, i think 234 has solved the dilema -

i am considered an adult, but i usually act like a kid.

Re: Adult coach?
 

I was the driver of my high school's FRC team for two years. We used a student coach.

At GTR in 2006, I had the chance to work with Ken Patton (65), and have had the chance to work with Derek Bessette (1114) and Shawn Lim (188) quite a few times. All of these mentors have won WFA's.

At the Canada's Wonderland offseason event in 2006, the current coach, operator, and myself (we were switching out human players as ours had graduated) decided to ask Karthik to coach for us in a few matches. Those were two of the best matches I've ever played as a driver. The other matches that I also played well in came as a direct result of the lessons I learned from his coaching. Our student coach became our human player, so that she could learn from Karthik.

One of the biggest differences for me in working with adult coach was how much better the communication was. I'm not trying to put down students (especially not my student coach) in any way, but adults simply have more experience at effective communication. Coaches who have coached for many years know what they have to do to get their point across to the drivers in a match. They have more confidence in directing people.

Adult coaches seem to be more comfortable with communication with other alliances as well. In every single one of the 84 matches I have driven in, the only coaches who I remember communicating with us in the box were adults. This contributed greatly to the cohesiveness of our alliances.

It was incredibly inspiring to have worked with Ken, Derek, Shawn, Karthik, et. al. Seeing adults handle themselves in high-pressure situations, learning for the experience those people have in pressured situations, how they react to things and how they keep their drivers calm. These people are truly the rock stars of FIRST - they're out there for all to see and admire. They are the people who other teams become familiar with, who are the most approachable for help in the pits, who help us work under pressure, and who help to mentor us at the events. As a driver, they inspired me.

One of my clearest memories of being a driver is after one of the matches in which Karthik coached us, having my drive team (including the student coach) talking together, about how much better of a learning experience it was working with him, having him work with us to improve our strategies and our match execution, as opposed to having to try and muddle through on our own. In my opinion, that is what makes FIRST great - students working alongside mentors to solve problems.

As a student driver, I feel like I was deprived in that I only had a small taste of it was like to work with an adult coach. The operator on my team felt the same way, as did the student coach.

Re: Adult coach?
 

In many school projects students are expected to do the majority of the design/build/leadership work. FRC, intentionally, takes a slightly different approach, that was perhaps best expressed by Tom who described it as the difference between being adults being role models vs. being teachers. It assumes that students can learn by watching, as well as by doing. This is a different approach from many other high school projects and it does take a while for those of us used to the "learn by doing" approach to appreciate the significance. So it is, perhaps, not surprising that some people will tend to have a philosophical bias in favour of advocating for student coaches simply because that is the model to which they are accustomed.

I recall in my first trip to a regional that I was shocked by the number of "bearded, beer-bellied, bifocaled" students working on robots that "could never have been designed by students". In my previous experience with student competitions adult involvement on the machines was frowned upon, and I carried some of that bias over to what I observed at the GTR.

So while it may be difficult for mentors who have been primarily involved with FIRST for many years to appreciate why some people bring a "students gotta DO it" attitude to FRC, it is just that that attitude is prevalent in many, many other competitions. Many people new to first arrive with that bias.

It doesn't mean it is right, but it is, I think, understandable. Patient, calm, explanations of the FIRST approach such as we have seen here are necessary to help newcomers to FIRST understand that this is an intentional difference and the reasons for it. Unlike many competitions (some of which specifically ban adults from the pits) FIRST welcomes a very broad spectrum of student/adult involvement. Obviously the extreme ends ("adults do it all, show robot to kids Feb. 22nd" and "kids and KOP thrown in room without supervision or guidance") are to be frowned upon as they fail to generate adult/student interaction, but aside from that... "live and let live"! And yes, we will have to make that explanation every year. Well... so long as the program keeps attracting new members, that is!

Jason

P.S. An interesting example of the exact opposite situation occurred recently when an FRC team entered a non-FRC competition that was specifically student-build oriented. I am told that the skills that the students had learned through working with their adult mentors in FRC led them to design and build a robot for that competition that was so far ahead of their competitors that there were mutterings of "they cheated... the teachers did it". The students were simultaneously offended, flattered, and somewhat shocked, I think, to discover that they had advanced so far, so quickly through their FRC involvement. Oh, yeah... they won handily, too, and their machine IS really cool. (Patrick, if you're reading this... post a photo and show that puppy off, man!)

Re: Adult coach?
 

Our students are in the midst of participating in a non-FRC competition and we have had experiences exactly like those you're talking about. I wasn't able to attend last year, but my understanding was that our team was booed and jeered because of the considerable advantage they displayed over their competitors. It was a remarkably different experience for them compared to what they've come to know from FIRST events, I'm sure.

Re: Adult coach?
 

we use an sdult coach....hes beowulf lol

Re: Adult coach?
 

During the practice matches on the Thursday of a regional we will sometimes put in mentors as coach, as we try and assess the robots performance and note if any 'adjustments' need to be made.

Once the competition starts on Friday, it's all students. We believe that the leadership skills learned during those matches for the coach are more valuble than the 'competitive advantage'. This is not to say that doing it another way is wrong ... just not our style.

Re: Adult coach?
 

Team #141 has two drive teams, each with its own student coach. We never use adult coachs.

Re: Adult coach?
 

I'm the coach for 1511 and we have a pretty good system. Our scouting and strategy master will basically talk with me before a match and come up with a gameplan for the next match. This is the drive team's time to work alongside a mentor who is strategizing just as much as the coach. Plus, it gives me an experience to step into that I've learned a lot from and gotten better at.

The chemistry really works on our drive team. I'm really good friends with the members and that really helps. I've also been a leader on the team and coach for a couple of years, so I do have some experience, but it's all about the drive team.

I can totally see both sides of this argument. Frankly, if I were a driver it would be awesome to play a match under direction of the best of the best mentors. However, it is also true that I have coached alongside other coaches who are much, much better then some adult coaches.

You can't generally compare student and mentor coaches, it needs to be taken case by case and team by team to see who is best for the job. I believe our way of running it is GOOD not the ONLY way, not the BEST way, but a good way. :)


This is MHO. Please don't flame me, I don't mean to upset anyone else. :cool:

Re: Adult coach?
 

I'm dredging up this thread because I just had an experience that I think relates to why I am in favor of adult FRC coaches. Sorry in advance for the long post.

When you coach FRC, you get to meet a lot of people. And lots of times, its more than just a casual, shake their hands, nod your head, see ya next year kind of thing. You are fellow competitors, sharing some intense moments as allies or opponents, and mutual respect and friendships sometimes develop. Students who know their coaches well sometimes get to know other coaches well.

Recently, a student who was mentored by some FRC friends of mine contacted me and asked some (imo) really important questions related to his education/future. I'm honored that this guy would come to me - I consider him to be a totally on-the-ball guy, and a future success. I met his dad in the stands while scouting a few years ago, and I know he has fantastic support in his life. So its not like he doesn't get good advice from his other people.

But he had questions that I'm probably pretty well-suited to answer. And because we know each other well, its a natural thing for him to ask me questions like this (he was asking about the merits of UniversityA versus UniversityB in the eyes of a potential employer). Heres the PM that I sent him (some info redacted to protect privacy):

Hi _____-

I would say that some, including me (and I hire a couple of mechanical engineers per year), would put a little more strength on the UniversityA degree. You have to remember though that I am not super-well-familiar with __ schools, so I am not going on a lot of info here. Someone with more insight from your state might have a different opinion.

In the end, if you had a good resume - and I expect you will - I think your grades at UniversityB, your experiences in FRC, jobs you have had, and any academic-related experiences (assisting professors on something, student competitions like FSAE or Mini-Baja, student associations such as SAE) you have had, will have a weight that is similar to the UniversityA vs. UniversityB weight. So there is no doubt that you can get an employer's attention at either school.

I hope that gives you some insight.

If you ever need someone to review a resume, serve as a reference, etc, count me in. Although you have some great ___ers who know you better than I do....

See ya,
Ken


I think the above example is a good reason why adult coaches are good for FRC. And I know, you don't have to be a coach to be in a position to develop these sorts of relationships... but I would not have met this young man if I had not been a coach, and if his team coach/mentors were not adults who became friends through the competitive FRC world (and also through CD! Thanks Brandon!).

I'm lucky to know him, someday I might even be lucky enough to interview or hire him when he "turns pro." :)

Ken

Re: Adult coach?
 

A couple of things here, folks...

1. This is why Ken Patton is a hero to many. Ken, you are great!

2. If you are against adult coaches, but agree with the mentoring mission of FIRST, then I feel that you don't understand what all Ken is saying above.

3. While this case Ken is talking about has nothing to do with students I know, it has happened to students on team 45 in the past.... and it's a great thing for these students to have access to people like Ken.

Andy

Re: Adult coach?
 

I agree whole-heartedly with what Ken adn Andy have just said. I have always felt that students should get the experience coaching and that it would help many students, but I have never been against mentors coaching also. I have coached alongside mentors that let their students do the talking while they sat back and listened to the gameplan unfold. I have had the honor to work with (imo and many others) some of the rockstars of FIRST like Ken Patton and Paul Copioli (might have spelled that wrong). I gained alot from listening and watching them coach, but I also learned from the students they coach, seeing the way they listen and are so attentive to these mentors makes me wonder what my team mates think of me as their coach. I may never get the chance to coach as a mentor, since my team has always used student coaches, but I know that I can still pass down the knowledge I have gained to those that come after me.